US to accelerate delivery of tanks to Ukraine

[BumRushDaShow]

Last edited Tue Mar 21, 2023, 04:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: CNN Politics

CNN — The US will dramatically accelerate the time it takes to ship Abrams tanks to Ukraine by sending older M1-A1 models of America’s main battle tank instead of the more modern version of the tank, according to two US officials. The switch will allow the tanks to arrive as early as fall of this year, one of the officials said, shaving months off the previous timeline that could have taken a year or longer.

On Tuesday morning, the National Security Council’s strategic communications coordinator John Kirby said the US was working to speed up the delivery of tanks to Ukraine. “We’re working on that. There’s some changes that you can make to the process, to sort of speed that up,” Kirby said on MSNBC. “The Pentagon is working as fast as they can, and they’ll have more to say on adjustments they’re making.” The US had previously announced it would send the more modern M1-A2 version of the Abrams battle tank, but that would have required either building new tanks or modernizing existing older tanks, then training Ukrainian crews on the more advanced system.

The M1-A2 has a newer digital targeting system that makes it a more capable tank, but it also required more training for Ukrainian troops to operate the more complex tank and to maintain the system. Later on Tuesday, US defense officials said Patriot missile defense systems are set to be deployed to Ukraine faster than originally planned and a group of 65 Ukrainian soldiers will complete their training on the systems at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, in the coming days.

The decision to speed up the delivery of tanks and Patriot systems comes as Ukraine is preparing to launch a spring offensive against Russian forces, built largely around the more powerful and more advanced systems Western countries have agreed to send, including tanks and other armored vehicles. Reuters first reported the decision to send the older Abrams tanks. The US still intends to send 31 M1-A1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, the same number as previously announced. The size of a complete Ukrainian tank battalion.

Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/21/politics/us-abram-tanks-accelerate-ukraine/index.html

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Article updated.

Original article -

CNN — The US will dramatically accelerate the time it takes to ship Abrams tanks to Ukraine by sending older M1-A1 models of America’s main battle tank instead of the more modern version of the tank, according to two US officials. The switch will allow the tanks to arrive as early as fall of this year, one of the officials said, shaving months off the previous timeline that could have taken a year or longer.

On Tuesday morning, the National Security Council’s strategic communications coordinator John Kirby said the US was working to speed up the delivery of tanks to Ukraine. “We’re working on that. There’s some changes that you can make to the process, to sort of speed that up,” Kirby said on MSNBC. “The Pentagon is working as fast as they can, and they’ll have more to say on adjustments they’re making.”

The US had previously announced it would send the more modern M1-A2 version of the Abrams battle tank, but that would have required either building new tanks or modernizing existing older tanks, then training Ukrainian crews on the more advanced system. The M1-A2 has a newer digital targeting system that makes it a more capable tank, but it also required more training for Ukrainian troops to operate the more complex tank and to maintain the system.

The decision to speed up the delivery of tanks comes as Ukraine is preparing to launch a spring offensive against Russian forces, built largely around the more powerful and more advanced systems Western countries have agreed to send, including tanks and other armored vehicles.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

1. That is great news

[Lonestarblue]

2. I wonder if that has anything to do with learning that China has been supplying Russia with drones.

[BumRushDaShow]

4. No - it was because these are older models

and were pretty much ready to go now in lieu of the newer tanks (where there as discussion about some additional training needed for them too).

[Mysterian]

3. Glad to hear it

I'm hoping for a successful Ukranian offensive in the early spring.

[XorXor]

19. Early spring of 2024?

They won't be getting US tanks until at least this fall, even with them using M1A1 tanks instead of the M1A2 tanks. Although, I think the Leopards should be getting there sooner, right? Those M2 Bradleys are either on the battlefield now, or are very close to having them out there. I've seen videos of Ukrainians with them in either Ukraine or Poland.

[James48]

5. It's still going to take a huge amount of time.

They need to be there now, not months from now.

Unfortunately we don’t have them ready now.

[House of Roberts]

6. Maybe using the M1-A1s will better prepare the Ukranians

for when the M1-A2s are available.

[KS Toronado]

7. I'm not a logistics expert

but with as many M1-A1s as we have in Germany, I would think we could get them to Ukraine in less than 2 weeks.

[BumRushDaShow]

9. They are used to operating Russian-made tanks, not U.S. ones

so they will need some training. Plus I would think there needs to be some mods done to add translations to any operating software, gauges, panels, hatches, etc. too.

I.e., I wouldn't expect the soldiers to be fluent English-speakers/readers.

[KS Toronado]

13. Good point about translations to make them operator friendly

Your deep thoughts always amaze me!

[BumRushDaShow]

14. This past year

I saw some videos posted showing Ukraine soldiers in some tank or maybe APV nailing some Russian batteries and yup, their video displays were definitely NOT "in English".

[former9thward]

20. Almost 2/3rds of Ukrainian men know English.

It is a bi-lingual country. English proficiency among Ukrainian men is 63.13% (Europe's average indicator is 69.13% and the international one is 62.25%), while the language proficiency among Ukrainian women reaches 63% (68.5% and 62.75%, respectively).

https://www.unian.info/society/language-ukraine-ranks-44th-in-2020-english-proficiency-ranking-11225369.html#:~:text=English%20proficiency%20among%20Ukrainian%20men,and%2062.75%25%2C%20respectively).

[former9thward]

21. Most Ukrainian men know English.

So I hope the reason the U.S. military is stalling is not to retrofit all the tanks with English.

English proficiency among Ukrainian men is 63.13% (Europe's average indicator is 69.13% and the international one is 62.25%), while the language proficiency among Ukrainian women reaches 63% (68.5% and 62.75%, respectively).

https://www.unian.info/society/language-ukraine-ranks-44th-in-2020-english-proficiency-ranking-11225369.html#:~:text=English%20proficiency%20among%20Ukrainian%20men,and%2062.75%25%2C%20respectively).

[BumRushDaShow]

24. There is a difference between reading/speaking

and actually mentally "translating" that into operation of a sophisticated vehicle.

And no, "the delay" isn't all about translating but apparently about a complexity and inventory issue with the newer tanks, and other reasons like fuel -

EXPLAINER: Why the US flipped on sending tanks to Ukraine

By TARA COPP and LOLITA BALDOR January 25, 2023

(snip)

WHY THE U.S. KEPT SAYING NO

The Abrams’ jet engine needs hundreds of gallons of fuel to operate. It will burn through fuel at a rate of at least two gallons per mile (4.7 liters per kilometer), whether the tank is moving or idling, Butler said, which means a constant supply convoy of fuel trucks must stay within reach so it can keep moving forward.

The U.S. worried that the fuel demands would create a logistical nightmare for Ukrainian forces. While an Abrams can storm through the snow and mud, fuel trucks can’t. In addition, like any jet engine, the Abrams’ turbine needs air to breathe, which it sucks in through filtered rear vents. When those vent filters get clogged — whether by sand, as soldiers reported to GAO in 1992, or by debris they might encounter in Ukraine — they can’t perform.

“The Abrams tank is a very complicated piece of equipment. It’s expensive, it’s hard to train on. ... It is not the easiest system to maintain. It may or may not be the right system,” The under secretary of defense for policy, Colin Kahl, told reporters last week at the Pentagon.

The Abrams also will require months of training. Ukrainian forces will have to learn how to operate its more complex systems, and how to keep it running and fueled.

(snip)

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-politics-us-national-security-council-7b8475342e6d5e0ad6e45715fe5a1fd9

There were some threads on DU back when this was all initially being discussed where some DUers who were familiar with them (and who have operated them) indicated (IIRC) that they could be run on other fuel, but it is something that needs to be factored in. In any case, a good article that explains some of the issues with that particular tank is here.

[former9thward]

26. Two years?

It is going to take up to two years for fuel issues?

Let's see what the Secretary of the Army says:

Tanks might not reach Ukraine this year, US Army secretary says

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Army is weighing how to get M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, but they may not even arrive until next year, the service’s secretary said Thursday.

U.S. President Joe Biden announced in January he would send 31 General Dynamics Land Systems-made tanks to Ukraine, reversing course after Germany cleared the way for Europe to send its own main battle tanks.

None of the options that we’re exploring are weeks or two months,” she continued. “There are longer timelines involved, but I think there are options that are less than two years, less than a year-and-a-half.”

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/02/23/tanks-might-not-reach-ukraine-this-year-us-army-secretary-says/

[BumRushDaShow]

28. I see you didn't read the link in my last sentence

https://www.ft.com/content/679ba852-1d7e-4d17-890d-2bc6152c96b0

But that is not surprising.

[former9thward]

29. No, I didn't

Unlock article Subscribe to unlock this article

But not surprising that internet posters know more than the Secretary of the Army about when tanks will arrive.

[BumRushDaShow]

31. Yes

what you posted exactly fits that remark.

[flashman13]

8. So what happened to Warp Speed? Once upon a time we launched an average of two Liberty ships every

three days. A single ship could be built in 39 days. As a stunt one ship was built, start to finish, in 4 days and 15-1/2 hours. Now you are telling me it's going to take 6+ months to get existing machines in the line. It is a sad state of affairs if that is what passes for to "dramatically accelerate" in the U.S.A in 2023. During WWII that sort of performance would simply have been unacceptable. I personally don't think it's acceptable now.

[BumRushDaShow]

12. There were no computerized operations using satellite guidance

during WW2.

It's silly to even attempt to compare what was done 80 years ago to now with the amount of electronics that have been integrated into those armaments. And I was born and raised in Philly, which had the largest Navy shipyard on the east coast during that period and I had an aunt who (as she would occasionally remind us) along with her friends, worked down there building those ships during the war, and I also had a father who fought in WW2.

[flashman13]

15. This has absolutely nothing to do with electronics and everything to do with political will.

If the powers that be decided that there was a sufficient EMERGENCY that required Abrams tanks on the ground in 30 days - it would happen. We are not talking about new weapons that have yet to be constructed.

Ukraine is not a land of backward peasants. They have demonstrated remarkable power of improvisation, adaption, imagination, and courage in the face of what looked like insurmountable odds. They have repurposed antique drones, built and effectively used naval drones and mastered the use of very sophisticate NATO artillery and missile systems in weeks or months. While tank maintenance is more complex than simply learning to operate the vehicles (the Ukrainians have plenty of experienced tank crews that could be brought up to speed quickly) even maintenance problems are hardly insurmountable. There are plenty of retired Abrams M1-A1 mechanics that could form the basis of civilian contractors to do the maintenance. Good grief, damaged or broke down machines could be loaded up and shipped out of country for repair.

As I said - the only obstacles are self inflicted and could be cured if the will to do it existed. Up until very recently we have been politically resistant to sending tanks. One might be forgiven if one thought that the delays might be in hopes that the war in Ukraine is settled quickly and it won't be necessary to send anything.

[flashman13]

16. BTW My old man left a protected civilian job repairing submarines to volunteer to fly 34 missions

over Europe in a B-17. We were a different people then and didn't know the meaning of the word can't.

[BumRushDaShow]

23. Fast-forward out of 1943 and into 2023

There was no "GPS" or "satellites" that could "read a license plate on a vehicle" from hundreds of miles altitude floating in low orbit in the early part of the 20th century.

It's a whole different universe now in terms of warfare.

[BumRushDaShow]

22. Nonsense

If the powers that be decided that there was a sufficient EMERGENCY that required Abrams tanks on the ground in 30 days - it would happen. We are not talking about new weapons that have yet to be constructed.

This is bullshit.

There are some huge geopolitical issues that you are ignoring and that have to do with NATO and the fact that during WW2, there was no "NATO". So your "allies" and "axis" are different and there certainly weren't any nukes involved back then. The U.S. made that their final "surprise act". So every move that every country makes must be mapped out.

Again, trying to compare WW2 operations to today, where now you have military contractors churning out complex stuff NOT average joes, is a fool's errand.

Case in point was the "emergency" declared due to COVID-19 and invocation of the "Defense Production Act" -

Trump orders GM to make ventilators under the Defense Production Act

Published Fri, Mar 27 2020 4:05 PM EDT Updated Fri, Mar 27 20205:21 PM EDT



President Donald Trump has ordered General Motors to make ventilators under the Defense Production Act hours after criticizing the company for not acting quickly enough to produce the devices amid the coronavirus pandemic.

The Korean War-era statute can force certain American companies to produce materials that are in short supply in the face of the growing outbreak.

The order comes hours after GM announced plans to build critical-care ventilators with Ventec Life Systems at one of the automaker’s component plants in Indiana.

The order does not change General Motors’ previously announced plans or schedule to produce the ventilators, according to GM spokesman Jim Cain. Earlier, the companies said they were expecting to begin shipping as early as next month.

(snip)

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/27/trump-orders-general-motors-to-make-ventilators-under-defense-production-act.html

and the result. I.e., attempting to get some "simpler" thing like some damn ventilators built, was not some easy endeavor. Now scale that up to a tank.

Ukraine is not a land of backward peasants. They have demonstrated remarkable power of improvisation, adaption, imagination, and courage in the face of what looked like insurmountable odds. They have repurposed antique drones, built and effectively used naval drones and mastered the use of very sophisticate NATO artillery and missile systems in weeks or months. While tank maintenance is more complex than simply learning to operate the vehicles (the Ukrainians have plenty of experienced tank crews that could be brought up to speed quickly) even maintenance problems are hardly insurmountable. There are plenty of retired Abrams M1-A1 mechanics that could form the basis of civilian contractors to do the maintenance. Good grief, damaged or broke down machines could be loaded up and shipped out of country for repair.

Not ONE thing I have posted has ever insinuated this. But there is this complete elitist disconnect here that assumes that "everyone" in the world is fluent in (American) English. These soldiers have experience with Russia-built/style equipment because that whole area used to be part of the USSR. This is why Poland and Slovakia were able to step right up and start sending some of their equipment (tanks and now fighter planes) there because these would be familiar. Hell, when I bought my current car with keyless entry/start, and all kinds of panels, it took me probably 3 years to get readjusted to not have to stick a key in the ignition and to push a button to turn the car on or off (and even with that, the start required a foot on the brake otherwise only the electrical system would activate).

We have been bringing their soldiers here and to our bases in Europe for training and evaluation for operating our equipment. You don't want to see an accidental screw-up where you get a loss of an expensive piece of equipment that wouldn't have happened given enough time and experience in how to deal with any quirks of the stuff.

As I said - the only obstacles are self inflicted and could be cured if the will to do it existed. Up until very recently we have been politically resistant to sending tanks. One might be forgiven if one thought that the delays might be in hopes that the war in Ukraine is settled quickly and it won't be necessary to send anything.

The armchair generals demanding WW3 strike again! Suit up!

[PSPS]

25. In WWII the Willow Run assembly plant was producing one B-24 per hour

It just takes the will to do it, which is lacking today largely due to the kremlin kaucus and the putin-friendly RW Wurlitzer. .

[former9thward]

27. You are correct.

This is what the Secretary of the Army recently said:

Tanks might not reach Ukraine this year, US Army secretary says

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Army is weighing how to get M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, but they may not even arrive until next year, the service’s secretary said Thursday.

U.S. President Joe Biden announced in January he would send 31 General Dynamics Land Systems-made tanks to Ukraine, reversing course after Germany cleared the way for Europe to send its own main battle tanks.

None of the options that we’re exploring are weeks or two months,” she continued. “There are longer timelines involved, but I think there are options that are less than two years, less than a year-and-a-half.”

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/02/23/tanks-might-not-reach-ukraine-this-year-us-army-secretary-says/

I don't believe the lack of will is due to a kremlin kaucus. It is simply much of America has lost its will power to do much of anything. Plus a Pentagon which has probably 100 times the bureaucrats they had in the WW II era.

[paleotn]

32. Ridiculously unfair comparison.

You do know what was necessary to get the entire US economy on a war footing so that we could build a liberty ship in 39 days? Try buying a new car or even new tires in 1942 to 1944. You couldn't, because nearly the entire US manufacturing base was dedicated to the war effort, building tanks, planes, jeeps, helmets, shells, bullets, uniforms and on and on. Now tell me how THAT would even be possible when 40% of the country are fascist Repukes and card carrying magats who couldn't give two shits about Ukraine. Please be realistic. Thank you.

[blue-wave]

10. Wonderful News!!!

Thank you President Biden!!!


These are not U.S. tanks, but nice to see all the same.

Ukrainian Tanks on Their Way to Bakhmut | VOA News

[republianmushroom]

11. like it

[XorXor]

17. I know it's stupid, but that dash they have in there is really bugging me

[bluedigger]

18. Ukraine needs good gear now, not better gear later.

Ukraine can't win a war of attrition with Russia. They need to press their advantages now, and our M1-A1s should outmatch most of what they meet on the battlefield. The biggest transition for Ukraine's armor troops will be moving from three to four man crews. Once they sort themselves out, it's all just nuts and bolts. Slava Ukraini!

[paleotn]

33. M1A1's and Bradly's made a pretty good showing against Iraqi T-72's and T-62's

during Desert Storm. Roughly the same kit Ukraine is facing. I think the older Abrams can more than hold their own. The question is training and coordination. Combined arms is a learned skill. Something the Ukrainians seem to have a knack for and the Russians have never mastered.

[Rhiannon12866]

30. Great news!

Thanks so much for posting!