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Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:35 PM

Manchin will vote with Senate GOPers to scrap Biden's biz vax mandate

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Spazito (a host of the Latest Breaking News forum).

Source: New York Post

Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV) said Thursday that he would join all 50 of his Republican colleagues in backing a resolution challenging President Biden’s vaccine mandate for private business.

“Let me be clear, I do not support any government vaccine mandate on private businesses,” Manchin said in a statement. “That’s why I have cosponsored and will strongly support a bill to overturn the federal government vaccine mandate for private businesses.”

Manchin added that the federal government should “incentivize, not penalize” private businesses to get their employees inoculated, while noting that “I have personally had both vaccine doses and a booster shot and I continue to urge every West Virginian to get vaccinated themselves.”

Read more: https://nypost.com/2021/12/03/manchin-will-vote-with-senate-gopers-to-nix-bidens-vax-mandate/

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Reply Manchin will vote with Senate GOPers to scrap Biden's biz vax mandate (Original post)
discocrisco01 Dec 3 OP
gab13by13 Dec 3 #1
SCantiGOP Dec 3 #6
groundloop Dec 3 #14
LakeVermilion Dec 3 #2
lapucelle Dec 3 #7
ColinC Dec 3 #11
lapucelle Dec 3 #15
ColinC Dec 3 #16
lapucelle Dec 3 #21
BradAllison Dec 4 #53
lapucelle Dec 4 #60
TiberiusB Dec 4 #50
lapucelle Dec 4 #61
George II Dec 4 #69
lapucelle Dec 4 #71
George II Dec 4 #67
BumRushDaShow Dec 3 #17
ColinC Dec 3 #19
BumRushDaShow Dec 3 #32
ColinC Dec 3 #37
BumRushDaShow Dec 3 #38
George II Dec 4 #78
BumRushDaShow Dec 4 #79
True Blue American Dec 4 #81
ShazamIam Dec 3 #13
lapucelle Dec 3 #18
ShazamIam Dec 3 #27
lapucelle Dec 3 #34
ShazamIam Dec 4 #64
lapucelle Dec 4 #66
TiberiusB Dec 4 #51
ShazamIam Dec 4 #63
lapucelle Dec 4 #65
ShazamIam Dec 4 #70
lapucelle Dec 4 #72
ShazamIam Dec 4 #74
lapucelle Dec 4 #75
ShazamIam Dec 4 #76
lapucelle Dec 4 #77
George II Dec 4 #86
lapucelle Dec 4 #89
George II Dec 4 #80
Bayard Dec 3 #3
SCantiGOP Dec 3 #8
lapucelle Dec 3 #4
LenaBaby61 Dec 3 #28
lapucelle Dec 3 #36
George II Dec 4 #84
LenaBaby61 Dec 4 #90
rockfordfile Dec 3 #5
totodeinhere Dec 3 #26
LiberalFighter Dec 3 #9
róisín_dubh Dec 4 #57
ColinC Dec 3 #10
lapucelle Dec 3 #24
Salviati Dec 3 #30
lapucelle Dec 3 #33
Polybius Dec 3 #46
lapucelle Dec 4 #68
Polybius Dec 4 #85
a kennedy Dec 3 #12
myohmy2 Dec 3 #20
BlueIdaho Dec 3 #22
onecaliberal Dec 3 #23
Galraedia Dec 3 #25
brush Dec 3 #29
Spazito Dec 3 #31
Jacson6 Dec 3 #35
jalan48 Dec 3 #39
NullTuples Dec 3 #40
Rebl2 Dec 3 #41
Takket Dec 3 #42
rainin Dec 3 #43
Lunabell Dec 3 #44
lapucelle Dec 3 #45
Lunabell Dec 3 #48
TiberiusB Dec 4 #52
George II Dec 4 #96
George II Dec 4 #99
TiberiusB Dec 5 #105
lapucelle Dec 4 #62
Lunabell Dec 3 #49
lapucelle Dec 4 #82
Lunabell Dec 4 #91
lapucelle Dec 4 #92
Lunabell Dec 4 #93
George II Dec 4 #97
Lunabell Dec 4 #100
George II Dec 4 #101
Lunabell Dec 4 #102
George II Dec 4 #103
Lunabell Dec 4 #104
lapucelle Dec 4 #98
Martin68 Dec 3 #47
vercetti2021 Dec 4 #54
monkeyman1 Dec 4 #55
Mike Nelson Dec 4 #56
orangecrush Dec 4 #58
Deminpenn Dec 4 #59
zanana1 Dec 4 #73
George II Dec 4 #83
lapucelle Dec 4 #88
DallasNE Dec 4 #87
traitorsgalore Dec 4 #94
Post removed Dec 4 #95
Spazito Dec 5 #106

Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:38 PM

1. The bill goes no where

the House shoots it down. No negative comments from me against a "Democrat."

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Response to gab13by13 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:42 PM

6. Might be indicative that you put the word Democrat in quotes

I fully realize that he is the only type of Dem who stands a chance of winning anything in WV, and that we would not control the Senate without him, but damn he and Sinema have sure kept us from capitalizing on Biden's win and the huge upsets pulled in the Georgia Senate seats.

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Response to SCantiGOP (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:55 PM

14. All true. Sure would be nice if he'd at least support voting rights though.

Without getting control of GQP gerrymandering we're fucked for at least the next decade.

HOWEVER, as already mentioned, this bill has zero chance of making it through the House. My guess is that Manchin is doing this to gain political points in W. Va.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:41 PM

2. Well, aside from his standing on Build Back Better, I think we have found the absolute middle in the

US Senate.

We are just plain lucky that we got the infrastructure bill through. In fact, had the Republicans turned their back on that, Manchin would probably negotiate that down in size too.

I'm just amazed that he aligns with Democrats. We truly have a big tent.

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Response to LakeVermilion (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:43 PM

7. There were Democrats who "turned their backs" on the infrastructure bill.

Joe Manchin was not among them.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:46 PM

11. You are speaking of one infrastructure bill.

But how bout the other?

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Response to ColinC (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:58 PM

15. What other infrastructure bill would that be?

The House passed a version of a bill. It went to the Senate. The Senate hasn't voted on its version of the bill yet. When it does, it will go back to the House. Who will vote for or against the final version is anybody's guess.

I'm talking about the infrastructure bill that was signed by President Biden and has been enacted into law.

There were Democrats who turned their backs on that bill.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:59 PM

16. Why hasn't the senate voted on its' version of the bill yet?

I have a hunch it has a lot to do with Manchin stating he clearly will not vote for it, and the Senate will not bring up a vote they know will fail. Just because he votes 99% of the time with Democrats, doesn't actually mean he supports their agenda. Since much of their agenda doesn't even make it to a floor vote because of the likes of Manchin.

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Response to ColinC (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:09 PM

21. Senators Menendez and Sanders are working on a fix for the SALT exemption. N/T

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:41 AM

53. Quite a way of framing it

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Response to BradAllison (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 08:15 AM

60. The "framing" is a clear, simple statement of a fact. N/T

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 12:54 AM

50. False narrative

The Democrats in the House who voted "no" on the infrastructure bill did so as a protest against the deeply flawed strategy to capitulate to intransigent corporate Democrats in the Senate who wanted to go back on a promise made by them, Biden, and Pelosi to pass the Infrastructure bill and the Reconciliation bill (BBB) at the same time. The House Democrats rightly feared that without their leverage in holding up the incredibly corporate friendly infrastructure bill, the BBB would simply languish and ultimately perish. That, or it would be larded up with more tax breaks and corporate sweeteners, ala the SALT tax break.

Since then, Manchin has consistently come up with excuse after excuse about why he can't vote on the bill, ranging from inflation to the new Covid variant, Omicron.

Actively undermining passage of major legislation like the voting rights bill, opposing reforming the filibuster, or stalling progress on BBB doesn't win you a medal for voting in favor of lesser bills. Openly opposing action on climate change, parental leave, any kind of student debt relief, or, now, federal vaccine mandates (Oh, but he's okay with just hacking it down to only cover federal employees!...What a guy!)

Remember, he still isn't good with reforming or eliminating the filibuster, despite delivering a significantly watered down voting rights bill that STILL couldn't win over a single republican.

Why some people defend this disaster and are instead openly hostile toward House members who clearly are fighting not only for Biden's stated agenda, but for the poor and working class, is beyond me.

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Response to TiberiusB (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 08:37 AM

61. Noting that not all Democrats voted for BIF is a statement of fact, not a narrative.

Noting that Joe Manchin was not among them is another statement of fact.




==============================================================

Creating narratives involves spinning facts into stories. While partisans and politicians may be doing just that, I am not.

As for telling stories, several craven politicians who voted against BIF went home during the Thanksgiving recess and tried to grab credit for the funding that will be coming into their districts. That is neither a framing nor a narrative. It's out and out dishonesty. Politicians who do things like that are not worthy of public trust.


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Response to lapucelle (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:26 AM

69. Yes, I noticed that - one of the House Democrats who voted against the infrastructure bill is now...

...taking credit for bringing $millions into the district for infrastructure!

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Response to George II (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:36 AM

71. The credit grabbing may be based on a technicality.

Grant applications were filed in September by both Democrats and Republicans. The funding mechanism for the grants was included in BIF. Some politicians filed applications for the grants and then voted against funding them.

"I deserve credit because I filed an application" is nothing but self-serving if the politician voted against the bill that provides the actual money that funds the grants.

Unfortunately, there's nothing surprising about self-interested politicians trying to have it both ways.

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Response to TiberiusB (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:24 AM

67. Being a member of Congress and voting AGAINST the better interests of one's constituents.....

....as a "protest vote" is not the way to legislate or govern.

Maybe I'm naive, so could you please define what "corporate Democrats" are?

Also, perhaps you can explain how two bills can be voted upon and passed "at the same time". From my years of following Congress both the House and Senate can conduct only one vote at a time, there have never been concurrent votes in either chamber.

By the way, I've been retired for 9 years now and the "SALT tax break" would help me and tens of millions of other middle-class Americans. It's certainly not a "corporate sweetener" for any of us.

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Response to ColinC (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:02 PM

17. There have been a "quieter" group who don't showboat like Manchin

who have pushing back on some of the things.

Including people like Chris Coons, Angus King, Jon Tester and others. For example on the discussions around SALT - https://bangordailynews.com/2021/12/01/news/nation/angus-king-among-those-trying-to-rein-in-proposed-democratic-tax-break-for-high-earners/

It's all the "sausage-making"...

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:07 PM

19. Thing is, if we just had to worry about them, and them alone, i'm pretty sure we would have had a

floor vote by now

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Response to ColinC (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:34 PM

32. Not necessarily

Like I said, there is a group of "moderates" who are behind the scenes who are decidedly more "fiscally conservative" than others among the Democratic caucus but at least they are willing to work to try to come up with some alternate solutions to what is bothering them rather than showing up on Faux Snooze to get face time for fundraising.

I always like to reference this nifty chart - https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?x=16&y=1&house=senate&party=&sort=crucial-lifetime&order=down

And if you scroll down, you will see the ranked list of who I'm talking about (and their Progressive "grade letter rating" (bolded) - I edited out some categories below for simplicity) -

38 Murphy, Chris CT "C"
39 Kaine, Tim VA "C"
40 Coons, Chris DE "D"
41 Bennet, Michael CO "D"
42 Shaheen, Jeanne NH "C"
43 Feinstein, Dianne CA "F"
44 Hassan, Maggie NH "D"
45 Tester, Jon MT "B"
46 Warner, Mark VA "F"
47 Carper, Tom DE "F"
48 King, Angus I ME "F"
49 Sinema, Kyrsten AZ "F"
50 Manchin, Joe WV "F"


Manchin and Sinema are at the bottom of the list and most vocal but that group just above them are just as involved in the whittle down process.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 08:11 PM

37. We need more Senate seats.

If we had 54 we may still be in a similar debacle, but I really don't think it would be close to as bad.

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Response to ColinC (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 08:27 PM

38. Yeah we do

Am hoping and crossing fingers that we can take Toomey's (soon to be open) seat here in PA next year and put John Fetterman in there.

And agree that if we had a few to spare, we would have wiggle room to let the showboaters showboat but still get some things done. In the past, the GOP had done that with Collins and Murkowski and a couple others. But Turtle has been making sure his caucus gets whipped into lockstep.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #32)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 10:59 AM

78. I've used that site many times, but mostly for a comparison of currently seated Senators or....

...Representatives.

I also concentrate more on the votes in the current session, not lifetime votes. To me that gives a better comparison than lifetime votes.

Times have changed over the years, and what is considered "progressive" (which in many cases a misnomer anyway, and in some cases those who call themselves "progressives" have shown little to no "progress" while in office) in 2021 wasn't back 10 years ago or more. Plus, it's a relative assessment of how each member voted on the same legislation, a much fairer comparison.

An extreme example is Patrick Leahy. In the current session on all votes he gets a 100% rating, and also get 100% for crucial votes. He's tied for #1.

Change that to lifetime overall and crucial votes, and he drops down to #29 (overall) and #27 (crucial).

On the other hand a Senator who has only been in office for a few months, Alex Padilla, is #1 for "lifetime" for overall votes and #1 "lifetime" for crucial votes.

The difference is that Leahy has participated in perhaps tens of thousands of votes in his career, Padilla only a few hundred.

Another site that I use (and get criticized for doing so) is this one: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-congress-votes/

This rates how a member votes with respect to the Biden agenda and compared to fellow members in the House and Senate.

However, all of this is subject to interpretation, either objectively or subjectively, by the individual.

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Response to George II (Reply #78)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 11:33 AM

79. Oh yeah I agree

there are a number of them who have been in there for a long time - under both Democratic and Republican Presidents and party control in their respective chambers.

I know outside of Biden, who would have been the longest-serving member of the Senate had he stayed there (exceeding even Leahy), Leahy certainly has been part and party to many thousands of votes vs a Warnock or Ossoff, who are definitely freshman.

Since the first year for both this President and this class of Congress hasn't even finished yet, the true test has yet to be seen.

It's a shame that this country had gotten to such a low point where there ended up being a need to push so hard to reverse 4 years of a nightmare in less than a year, so we are fortunate to see such a competent staff behind the scenes who were literally ready to go "BEFORE day one", who have worked hard to make it so. I think what has been accomplished so far has been incredible.

The sad part is that some have a skewed perspective at actually how long Biden has been in office as President, which is 11 months. I suppose that is due to him having been around as VP under Obama for 8 years, but the roles are completely different. So there is a level of impatience being continually expressed while the standard bureaucratic process is underway, and that to me is what is frustrating - basically the lack of knowledge of Civics 101.

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Response to ColinC (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 12:11 PM

81. One honest Republicancould knock Manchin off his pole.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:53 PM

13. which Democratic turned their back on the infrastructrue bill? This is a discussion about the Senate

vote. If you are referring to the House vote, yes 6 D Nos and 13 R yes, It allowed a show of bipartisanship and allowed some Dem conscious vote. Their votes did not change the outcome.

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Response to ShazamIam (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:07 PM

18. Wait...what? Why is this a discussion about a Senate vote?

No Democrat in the Senate voted against the infrastructure bill.

And no Democrat in the Senate voted with the Republicans on their amendment last night.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:26 PM

27. what was your point?

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Response to ShazamIam (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:47 PM

34. There were Democrats who "turned their backs" on the infrastructure bill.

Joe Manchin was not among them.




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Response to lapucelle (Reply #34)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:14 AM

64. I see anger in that and you are mixing House and Senate.

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Response to ShazamIam (Reply #64)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:21 AM

66. What does that even mean? No Senate Democrats voted against BIF.

Six House Democrats did vote against BIF. There's nothing either mixed up or "angry" about that statement of fact.

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Response to ShazamIam (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 12:59 AM

51. Deflection

Clearly discussing the fact that it's the Senate that is holding up the BBB and gutting it's major progressive elements is counter to the "Manchin is a saint" nonsense narrative.

Must...deflect...discussion...to...the...House...

Progressives trying to actually deliver on Democratic administration promises are the REAL problem.

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Response to TiberiusB (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:11 AM

63. I went to sleep wondering why the comment triggered me, and realize it was the anger, when those

votes are about Congressional politics, not partisan politics. and knew I wasn't capable of explaining, Congressional politics vs party politics within Congress.

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Response to TiberiusB (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:17 AM

65. The impasse has little (if anything) to do with Manchin. It's Sanders and Menendez.

Senate ‘SALT’ consensus elusive as budget bill vote approaches
By Laura Weiss and Lindsey McPherson
Posted December 1, 2021 at 7:17am

Senate Democrats are at an impasse on how to address the current $10,000 cap on deducting state and local taxes, leaving a meeting Tuesday [November 30] without consensus on how to handle the issue in their $2.2 trillion budget reconciliation bill.

“SALT” deduction proponent Sen. Bob Menendez, D-N.J., and critic Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., have been working on a plan to extend the cap past its 2025 expiration and add an income-based exemption. But their efforts hit a snag this week over disagreement on the income level at which limits should begin, and over whether it should generate revenue to fund other priorities in the social safety net and climate package.

https://www.rollcall.com/2021/12/01/senate-salt-consensus-elusive-as-budget-bill-vote-approaches/

I find publications like Roll Call a more reliable source of information about what's going on in the legislative branch than twitter and facebook.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #65)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:29 AM

70. Difference of opinions and I disagree that Sanders and Mendez are holding it up.

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Response to ShazamIam (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:37 AM

72. The fact that there is an impasse due to SALT negotiations is not an opinion. N/T

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:53 AM

74. The comment I first replied to was about 6 House Democratic votes and what I perceived as

strongly angry. I found the level of anger unsettling and reacted. It was that simple.

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Response to ShazamIam (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 10:05 AM

75. Where is there any "anger" in the simple statement of two facts?

Where is there a level of anger that is "unsettling" in this post?






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Response to lapucelle (Reply #75)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 10:10 AM

76. Still looks angry to me.

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Response to ShazamIam (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 10:53 AM

77. The perception of anger in non-angry expressions is an interesting phenomena

that has been investigated by scientists.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:17 PM

86. My professional opinion is that the "perception of anger" is an issue for the perceiver, not you.

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Response to George II (Reply #86)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:28 PM

89. There are peer reviewed studies by behavioral scientists that confirm your professional opinion. N/T

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Response to ShazamIam (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 11:38 AM

80. Sanders is holding up the bill in the same manner as Manchin has been accused of holding it up.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:41 PM

3. That's a load of crap

Every person in this country has been incentivized like crazy. The carrot has not worked. Its past time to bring out the hammer.

Manchin looks like a lost cause.

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Response to Bayard (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:43 PM

8. What hammer will work on Manchin?

Kick him out of the party? Senate would then immediately go over to McConnell and the rest of the Trump party.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:41 PM

4. Last night, Mancchin voted with Democrats against a GOP amendment to eliminate this mandate.

Senate clears Feb. 18 stopgap funding bill, averts shutdown
Senate GOP holdouts relent after vote on vaccine amendment

Several GOP senators said they wanted a simple majority vote on their amendment to bar funding for an Occupational Safety and Health Administration rule requiring businesses with at least 100 workers to ensure they are fully vaccinated or tested regularly. The rule is currently on hold pending litigation at the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit.

The amendment would have also barred federal funds from enforcing vaccine requirements for federal employees, federal contractors, health care workers and the military. The requirement for health care workers is under a court challenge.

"All we ask for is an up-or-down vote," Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah, said in a floor speech Thursday. "It would take 15 minutes."

snip===============================================================

The vote on a similar Marshall amendment was 50-50 in late September. The earlier amendment, offered before the OSHA mandate was finalized, would have covered any regulation promulgated by the Biden administration except those covering federal workers.

One of those "no" votes in September was Sen. Joe Manchin III, D-W.Va. Manchin on Thursday expressed some concern with the vaccine rule, however.

snip==============================================================

While supportive of similar requirements for federal workers and the military, Manchin told reporters he was "less enthused" about a private sector mandate.

Ultimately, Manchin voted against the more expansive Marshall amendment offered Thursday night. But he signed onto a resolution from Sen. Mike Braun, R-Ind., that would overturn the OSHA vaccine rule under Congressional Review Act authorities, which only require a simple majority to pass the Senate.

Manchin would be the 51st vote, but the resolution would still have to pass the Democrat-controlled House and be signed into law, which is unlikely.


https://www.rollcall.com/2021/12/02/deal-reached-on-feb-18-stopgap-bill-senate-timing-uncertain/

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:27 PM

28. Thing is, that if he doesn't vote for a voting rights act ...

OSHA and everything Dems have done will be overturned by the GQP US Taliban Party if they can successfully steal the congress, senate and White House.

We'll be on par with broke ass russia, by having a GQP authoritarian president for LIFE like they do over there. In other words, America will exist no more.

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Response to LenaBaby61 (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 08:07 PM

36. Joe Manchin is a co-sponsor of Amy Klobuchar's Freedom to Vote Act (S.2747)

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:15 PM

84. Hmmm, so who isn't a co-sponsor?

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:48 PM

90. I'm sorry, but I STILL don't trust him as far as I could throw the Empire State Building.

On Monday he says one thing, his corporate oil masters tell him to back off of what he said, then on Tuesday he backs WAY off of what he said on Monday

He promised that he could get 10 GQP'ers to support him on the Voting Rights Bill.

The idiot got NADA to support him.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:42 PM

5. Clearly he supports Americans dying from covid.

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Response to rockfordfile (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:24 PM

26. That is not clear at all. I personally support the President's mandate proposals. But I think

there can be a legitimate argument over whether imposing a mandate is the most effective way to tackle this problem. And as much as I disagree with Manchin on many issues, I doubt very seriously if he actually supports Americans dying from Covid. Why would he? Or maybe you were just being sarcastic and not literal. I hope so.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:43 PM

9. Manchin is a danger to society.

I wonder how many of his WV have died because of Covid?

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 06:01 AM

57. A decent amount, almost 4900...

in a small state with a ridiculously unhealthy population (I live here). I'm relatively young (44), very healthy, boosted (plus I had COVID in July), and I STILL wear a mask everywhere. And I get looks for it.

Manchin sucks. I despise him. But he's literally the best this godforsaken hell-hole can do.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:44 PM

10. So he's actively cosponsoring a bill to overturn a key part of the Biden agenda?

Tell me again how Manchin is a strong supporter of Biden's agenda?

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Response to ColinC (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:20 PM

24. Nate Silver has a continuously updated tally.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:32 PM

30. This metric is really useless in todays senate.

Hardly anything is going to be brought to the floor unless it will pass, and it's not going to pass unless pretty much every democrat signs on for it. It's not that Manchin is rising to clear a high bar, it's that the bar has been lowered so that he can clear it.

Granted, I'd rather have him inside the tent, rather than outside it, but one should not use bad metrics to make him out to be a stronger democrat than he is.

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Response to Salviati (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:42 PM

33. Manchin rates 100% in voting with President Biden.

If the contention that the bar was lowered so that Manchin could clear it were true, then all the other Senate Democrats and the two independents who caucus with us would also be at 100%.

They're not.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 10:44 PM

46. That's not how it works

He blocks the good stuff so he doesn't have to vote against anything, hence the 100% fake "voting with Biden" record.

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Response to Polybius (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:24 AM

68. Nate Silver is a data scientist, and his conclusions are evidence-based.

Asserting that facts and data are "100% fake" doesn't change them.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #68)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:15 PM

85. No, I didn't say it wasn't true

It's just slick true. He does (did?) vote 100% of the time. But that's completely irrelevant since before the bill comes up for a vote, he takes out the good stuff.

Also, remember when Biden nominated Neera Tanden for a cabinet post? Manchin was against it. Since Biden only had 49 votes, he pulled the nomination. Since she never came up for a vote, he kept the fake 100% voting record. So seeing DUers say "Manchin votes with Biden 100%" may be technically true, but it's extremely misleading and not an honest thing to post.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:48 PM

12. and my I say, I DESPISE him??? 🤬 🤬 🤬

Oh wait, I TOTALLY DESPISE HIM.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:08 PM

20. let me be clear...

...can't we just buy a republican or two, they respond to money...stop playing around...

...we need to get creative and serious about passing the much needed legislation Americans desire and deserve...

...time's a wastin' and everyone's watchin'...

...can we deliver?

...we need a smaller carrot and a bigger stick...

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:10 PM

22. I support Democrats

ManChin? Pfffft.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:12 PM

23. I fixed it for you.


“Let me be clear, I do not support saving lives with any government vaccine mandate on private businesses,”

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:22 PM

25. NY Post? No thanks.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:28 PM

29. Of course he will.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)


Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:50 PM

35. Don't ya know that the constitution is a suicde pact?

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 08:33 PM

39. Of course he does because that's what those poor folks in WVA want--that's the official line

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 09:12 PM

40. s/b: "all 50 of his fellow Republican colleagues"

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 09:14 PM

41. Big surprise

What an asshole. Incentives don’t work-at least not in my state.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 09:16 PM

42. I don't know why people keep referring to this as a "mandate"

it is no such thing. Employees in companies over 100 people had the freedom of choice to either get vaccinated, or get tested once a week. The number of people required and forced to get vaccinated to keep their jobs is exactly ZERO.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 09:19 PM

43. Scrap all vaccine mandates and see if he changes his tune. n/t

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 09:42 PM

44. When will Manchin support the president?

If ever.

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Response to Lunabell (Reply #44)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 10:12 PM

45. Nate Silver: Does Your Member Of Congress Vote With Or Against Biden?

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 10:54 PM

48. Oh please.

He votes for watered down versions of bills he helped torpedo. That's NOT supporting the president!!

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Response to Lunabell (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:06 AM

52. It's a profoundly stupid metric

Manchin could simply restrict his votes to only those bills he wants to pass or knows won't pass and he'll get points for the futile gesture, thus ensuring a high "votes with Biden" score.

Meanwhile, he drags out negotiations on critical legislation to avoid a "no" vote while watering it down incessantly, pushing us ever closer to a 2022 bloodbath.

But no votes were taken, so his flawless record stands!

HE'S A HERO!

Because West Virginia! (a state he almost lost last round, and will be insignificant if all the voter suppression and GOP voting shenanigans are left on the law books across the country, but whatever...)

The "must defend Manchin" pretzel logic is a sight to behold.

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Response to TiberiusB (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 04:42 PM

96. So then, since you claim he does it, how many votes has Manchin missed since January?

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Response to TiberiusB (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 05:48 PM

99. I'll answer my own question - of 479 votes this year Manchin has missed a whopping TEN...

Obviously he's not restricting his votes to only those bills he wants to pass. He's actually got one of the best records of all Senators with respect to showing up for votes.

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Response to George II (Reply #99)

Sun Dec 5, 2021, 12:49 AM

105. Ah, strawmen...

I never said he missed any votes at all, actually. I pointed out how the "votes with Biden" metric could be manipulated.

You completely skipped over the relevant bit about him dragging out negotiations on the BBB bill, or his refusal to reform the filibuster, which are a tiny bit more important than "votes with Biden" when he prevents the Senate from voting on the bill at all (well, him and a group of others).

Perhaps everyone should be angry at Chuck Schumer for not simply holding a vote in the Senate. Let's see how Manchin and Sinema do when their "votes with Biden" record is actually on the line.

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Response to Lunabell (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 08:56 AM

62. Nate Silver is a data scientist whose conclusions are evidence-based.

Actual data trumps agenda-based assertions, especially when they are unsupported by any evidence.

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Response to Lunabell (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 12:17 PM

82. There's nothing surprising about a divisive opinion piece in a national newspaper.

It seems like pundits like Vogel and Kelly will not be happy until they flip those two senate seats red.

The "story" also notes Democratic donor support for Lynn Cheney.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a direct link to the NYT opinon article without the hinky cdn.ampproject.org google analytics filter. Clickbait headlines are bad enough without that extra layer of manipulation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/21/us/politics/manchin-sinema-republican-donors.html

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #82)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:56 PM

91. I think you're backing the wrong horse.

I'm willing to bet he switches parties before his next election.

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Response to Lunabell (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 02:27 PM

92. Joe Manchin is a Democrat.

And he's a Democrat who knows how to win in Trump +60 territory. Folks have been "willing to bet that he switches parties" for several years now. And they've been wrong every time.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #92)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 03:05 PM

93. Well, that's part of the problem.

His messaging is off and he wins elections instead of spreading Democratic values by reaching out to voters.

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Response to Lunabell (Reply #93)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 05:24 PM

97. He wins elections in West Virginia. Do you know of ANY other Democrat who could win in WV?

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Response to George II (Reply #97)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 05:49 PM

100. Another Democrat could if the party backed them.

If our real message got out, people would vote for a different kind of Democrat. One who supports the president and his goals for this country. Manchin does not support President Biden when he doesn't bring his constituents into the party. He's great at winning elections, but not good at carrying messages to the people.

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Response to Lunabell (Reply #100)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 05:54 PM

101. Any suggestions? The party has backed EVERY Democratic Senate candidate.....

That's a pretty strong accusation - what Democratic Senate candidate haven't they supported?

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Response to George II (Reply #101)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 05:58 PM

102. No suggestions as to whom.

Just a thought that someone in that state could do a much better job of exciting the people to understand the Democratic party and Biden's vision for the country. Instead of thwarting the president's programs until he gets what he wants.

Just hoping that somebody there can be more of a leader.

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Response to Lunabell (Reply #102)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 06:03 PM

103. So, find someone better but you don't know who it might be. Fact is, in my opinion, there isn't one.

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Response to George II (Reply #103)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 06:49 PM

104. I guess we'll see.

I really hope he is primaried with a candidate who is more supportive of Joe Biden's agenda.

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Response to Lunabell (Reply #93)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 05:30 PM

98. It's not a problem that Joe Manchin is a lifelong Democrat who knows how to win elections

in his very red state, and it stands to reason that any Democrat who can win a senate seat under those circumstances is extremely skilled at messaging.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Fri Dec 3, 2021, 10:50 PM

47. Putz!

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:44 AM

54. Fuck this guy!

Report me. Don't care.

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Response to vercetti2021 (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:56 AM

55. same here ! sick of his bull shit ! a damn coal barron !

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 04:04 AM

56. Bad move...

... Joe should call Joe and ask if there is support. If there is none, don't bring it up... find out what can be done. Work on Build Back Better... work on voting rights... why are we wasting time on a loss? We just had a win... let's caulk up another.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 07:05 AM

58. And the wingnut agenda rolls on


I am so sick of this shit.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 07:12 AM

59. The amendment failed and Manchin

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 09:51 AM

73. I don't know why we keep expecting different.

It's always a big disappointment when he votes with the GOP.
We should know that when he goes home every day he unzips and steps out of his Democrat suit.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 12:36 PM

83. Reading the fine print, the "bill" is actually a "resolution of disapproval", and must be passed....

...by the Senate AND the House and survive a Presidential veto.

President Biden will not be put in a position to have to veto it.

I see discussion in this thread about the BBB, hinting that this is part of it. In fact it is not.

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Response to George II (Reply #83)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:26 PM

88. Manchin voted against the measure as an amendment in the stopgap funding bill.

There is discussion here concerning BBB that demonstrates that folks are getting their "news" via twitter rather than reliable sources.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Sat Dec 4, 2021, 01:26 PM

87. A Symbolic Vote

Will Schumer even bring it to the floor? It won't pass the House and even if it did it would meet a certain veto. So, let him have his fun.

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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)


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Response to discocrisco01 (Original post)

Sun Dec 5, 2021, 12:57 AM

106. *LOCKING*

This OP doesn't meet the criteria in the SOP for this forum:

No duplicates.

Please continue discussion in this thread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142834750

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