Attorneys: 2 Ex-Cops Charged in Floyd's Death Were Rookies
Source: New York Times
MINNEAPOLIS Two of three Minneapolis police officers accused of aiding and abetting in the death of George Floyd were rookies barely off probation when a more senior white officer ignored the black man's cries for help and pressed a knee into his neck, defense attorneys said Thursday.
Earl Gray said his client, former Officer Thomas Lane, had no choice but to follow the instructions of Derek Chauvin, who has since been charged with second-degree murder in Floyd's May 25 death. Gray called the case against his client extremely weak.
A judge set bail at $750,000 apiece for Lane, J. Kueng and Tou Thao, when they made their first appearances in Hennepin County District Court Thursday. Simultaneously, and just blocks away , celebrities, friends and relatives gathered to memorialize Floyd at a Bible college.
The Minneapolis Police Department fired all four officers last week and charged Chauvin initially with third-degree murder the following day. But protests that began on the streets of Minneapolis quickly spread across the nation, calling for justice for Floyd and other African Americans who were killed by police.
Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/06/04/us/ap-us-george-floyd-death-investigation.html
grumpyduck
(6,234 posts)He's their lawyer. But were they asleep in class at the police academy?
ret5hd
(20,491 posts)demonstrated their lack of moral ability to become a police officer.
I saw the look on their face. They looked spooked and confused for sure, but who in their right mind would let that shit carry on?
At the least they have been weeded out early. They clearly lack the character to be a peace officer.
forgotmylogin
(7,528 posts)They might have changed the course of history.
That's not a cop thing, that's a human thing.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)Should have been really fresh in their memories.
AllyCat
(16,187 posts)WHY ARE YOU A COP????? If you cannot tell that murdering someone in cold-blood on the street is wrong...you should be locked up somewhere, not wearing a badge and sporting a weapon that will kill people.
msongs
(67,405 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,611 posts)In exchange for testimony that ensures Chauvin gets put away.
Dan
(3,562 posts)and for a rookie, any mistakes made is a career ender - either with the force or with his peers.
I'm not saying what they did was right, but just saying until you're a part of such a culture - it's just hard.
And it is not just the police where there is a culture where as a rookie you desire acceptance, it's also in the military. Sometimes the confusion sets in...you want to fit in and do the right thing, but....
As someone said in one of the posts here.... for the rookies, maybe a lesser charge in exchange for their testimony.
BigmanPigman
(51,590 posts)The attitude has to change and we have to never let up until it is normal practice. The police have to change from the bottom to the top. Enough!
ret5hd
(20,491 posts)approval from someone/group that is clearly causing immediate harm?
And is that the kind of person we need in our police?
Dan
(3,562 posts)ret5hd
(20,491 posts)Maybe you could enlighten us.
Dan
(3,562 posts)Last edited Thu Jun 4, 2020, 11:07 PM - Edit history (1)
"So what kind of person, exactly, needs or desires...
approval from someone/group that is clearly causing immediate harm?
And is that the kind of person we need in our police?"
I will share my opinion, based on a lot of things in my experiences. First keep in mind that there will always be exceptions to the rule to what I say. Having had experience with both the military and police environments - most people join these organizations with the intent to do the right thing. For instance, when you join the military - the intent is not so much with the desire to kill people, as it is the desire to serve and do right by your country. You accept the fact that the requirements of duty might force you into a situation where you might be required to kill people, you accept that. Hell, there are situation where you can be put in a situation where it can be damn near guaranteed that you will die - you have to accept that, it's part of the devil's bargain that you made. But before you even get to that point, you have the training, the training that helps you understand and appreciate that you are part of a group, a core of people that you work with, train with - and understand that if necessary you will put your life on the line for them. And conversely, they for you. There is, if you would, the brotherhood of trust. None of you think or believe that at some point in your career that you are going to do awful things, illegal things - that's not something you think of....but it happens. It has always happened...and sadly, it will continue to happen. Life is not black or white, there are often times those ugly shades of gray. That is why we also have the UCMJ - to help reinforce the training and guidance you received during training - but what is an academic exercise does not sometime play well in real life situations.
"approval from...." it is not so much that you need the approval from someone or group as much as there has to be an awareness that you will have their back in certain situation, and they will have yours. This is not some blanket approval that you're going to be there to cover wrong doing - no, that is not what someone bargains for or ever hopes to be put in that situation, but for doing your job there is that element of mutual trust. YES, there are bad people that do bad things and you hope that you have the personal moral strength to stand up and do the right thing; not only for the people that you are there to protect but also in support of your own character. Most of us will never have to face that moment of personal judgement but some people have had to face that issue...and what do you do? Do you know what you would do or would have done - it is easy to say ....oh yes, this is what I would have done, there is no doubt about it....but you don't know until that moment of true arrives. Everything you invested in - everything that you have been a part of is now put at risk. {For the rookies, they just didn't know better...for the veteran, he had an obligation to do the right thing}.
"And is that the kind of person we need in our police?".... The question implies a wrongness is inherent in the people that are in law enforcement, I reject that. We need good people in both the military and the police. We need those types of people that are willing to put their lives on the line to protect ours. The type of person that is willing to run into a building on fire, take care of a person with a contagious disease, confront an armed man with the intent to kill, or any other extreme examples that you are willing to consider. Not everyone has the character to do that, but some do, and they step forward to do what most of us probably would not want to do. What we hope and pray for is the type of person, male or female or other that has the moral character to do the right thing. What we want is also a system that has the ability to recognize and weed out those types of people that have a character flaw that makes them unfit for the role. We also need in place a system that has the ability identify those people that have a 'strong man' identity that tells them that once they have a gun or a badge that somehow they have been blessed by God with the arbitrary right to take a life without consideration of the "right or wrong" of the situation. We don't need people like the officer that put his knee to the neck of Mr. Floyd, but we need the officer or person that is willing to die to protect your right to life.
In my opinion, the vast majority of military or police don't start out evil or with a complete or partial disregard for someone else's right to life. But some where in all the years of doing the hard work that most of us could never do - they become hard and a minority of them lose sight of their humanity. As a military person or police person, you don't want to be partners with such a person - and you hope that you (if confronted by that situation or person) have the character to do the right thing by making those with the authority to do the right thing, aware of these types of people AND they are removed. But in some cases, and I hate saying this, the system itself not only wants but needs some of these inhumane types. Not saying it is right...but it is life.
My opinion....wish I could say it better... but hope you understand what I am trying to say... good people sometimes do bad things; we need a system that helps identify when good people start to turn bad; even more we need a system where weak people are not given power that they neither understand nor can appreciate the harm that they can do. And a system that does not punish those that standup and do the right thing, by identifying those that should not be in the positions that they are in....it's hard.
As I think about what I wrote, our current President is a case in point.
RobinA
(9,893 posts)most people. Swimming against the tide would be quite difficult for most people, and in this case they would have not only had to just not say anything, but they would have had to tell a superior officer to stop doing what he was doing in the spur of the moment and in a culture they were not yet comfortable in. I'm not defending them, but comments saying that they were somehow more deficient than the majority of people are just delusional in my opinion. People want to fit in and not rock the boat. Particularly the personality that gravitates to military or law enforcement, which are highly authoritarian.
It's fine to say, Oh I would speak out in a situation like that, but unless you've actually been in a position where you had to make a decision to put yourself out of your own group, you don't really know. It is hard for some people, impossible for most.
OnlinePoker
(5,719 posts)It's pretty hard, when you're on your 3rd and 4th shift as these two were, to question the person who is writing your evaluations. I know when I was first in the military, that I saw some questionable activity by my superiors but lacked the confidence to call them on it or go over their heads. For the first year, I didn't even know I could do that.
lostnfound
(16,179 posts)roamer65
(36,745 posts)Seems like Chauvin was showing off. I think he made that decision beforehand.
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)on his side, but Chauvin overruled him. As the poster above noted, it's not that easy for a new cop to usurp the authority of the officer in charge.
Massacure
(7,522 posts)I'm not a lawyer, but Chauvin's best scenario is to try and get a plea deal to Murder 3. The presumptive sentence for that is 74-83 months, and the Minnesota's sentencing guidelines states the presumptive sentence should be halved for defendants who take responsibility for their crime. If he gets convicted on Murder 2, he'll get 120-180 months.
If I were in Lane's position, I'd probably reject any plea deal and take my chances with the Jury. I don't have enough information on the actions of the other two.
Here is Minnesota's sentencing guideline:
http://mn.gov/msgc-stat/documents/Guidelines/2019/MinnSentencingGuidelinesCommentary.pdf
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)I'd have to give weight to the fact that Lane and Keung were both very new patrol officers. Most of us have been new to our job and know the position you are in as a trainee. You trust that your trainer is telling you the correct thing do and correct information.
I understand the idea that one of the other 3 officers should have stopped Chauvin, but people like Hugh Thompson, the helicopter pilot who stopped the My Lai massacre, are few and far between.
Lancero
(3,003 posts)The only good thing about these cops being rookies is that they were stopped early enough before they could harm more people. Pity that they didn't have the balls to stand up and, you know, protect the public but at least now no one else will get killed when they eventually decide to, shall we say, move on to hands on training rather than watching and learning.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)I think that piece of shit Chauvin made the decision to use Floyd to show off to the rookies.
Scruffy1
(3,256 posts)I know the neighborhood well and finding a bogus $20 bill there is not unusual. If you were stopped by the police you would probably be questioned about it and maybe asked to give your id. The very fact that he immediately decided on an arrest with handcuffs tells me something. I have no evidence, but it looks like he was making sure he was dead. I think premeditation would be hard to prove, but thankful he is off the street. It could have been me who unknowingly got a bogus 20 and died. My girlfriends daughter lived a block from there and I've stopped at the store and it's fairly certain that George Floyd would know the owner would call the police but he stayed at his car like he wasn't worried about it because there's no culpability if you didn't know it was counterfit. In my mind I keep thinking that Chauvin had some kind of personal beef with Floyd and saw a chance to eliminate him. But then I don't know if they actually knew each other. Whatever, second degree murder would be fine and send the message to police officers all over the USA. All this over a measly twenty bucks.
As far as the rookies are just as guilty and were accomplices to capital murder. Nine minutes. Stare at the clock nine minutes and see how long that is. I've had many jobs in my life and not one was worth being an accessory to murder. Every old cop I ever knew had to stop an out of control cop at sometime in his carreer. It's part of the job.
TreadSoftly
(219 posts)It had that show-off quality to it -- the John Wayne hands on / near the hips.
And forming a bad habit in new cops. What a jerk.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Hell, he had the power of arrest and a pistol....
TreadSoftly
(219 posts)This is why several police chiefs are using the Floyd case as a learning moment (in particular, Chattanooga chief).
It's a fine opportunity to prevent the "cockpit culture" where subordinates are scared to speak up.
[link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_safety|]
SamKnause
(13,103 posts)They could have removed their badges and quit right on the spot.
onetexan
(13,041 posts)Murder 2. The other senior officer will also be convicted but at a lesser charge.