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brooklynite

(94,550 posts)
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 08:38 PM Jun 2020

Attorneys: 2 Ex-Cops Charged in Floyd's Death Were Rookies

Source: New York Times

MINNEAPOLIS — Two of three Minneapolis police officers accused of aiding and abetting in the death of George Floyd were rookies barely off probation when a more senior white officer ignored the black man's cries for help and pressed a knee into his neck, defense attorneys said Thursday.

Earl Gray said his client, former Officer Thomas Lane, had no choice but to follow the instructions of Derek Chauvin, who has since been charged with second-degree murder in Floyd's May 25 death. Gray called the case against his client “extremely weak.”

A judge set bail at $750,000 apiece for Lane, J. Kueng and Tou Thao, when they made their first appearances in Hennepin County District Court Thursday. Simultaneously, and just blocks away , celebrities, friends and relatives gathered to memorialize Floyd at a Bible college.

The Minneapolis Police Department fired all four officers last week and charged Chauvin — initially with third-degree murder — the following day. But protests that began on the streets of Minneapolis quickly spread across the nation, calling for justice for Floyd and other African Americans who were killed by police.

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/06/04/us/ap-us-george-floyd-death-investigation.html

30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Attorneys: 2 Ex-Cops Charged in Floyd's Death Were Rookies (Original Post) brooklynite Jun 2020 OP
Well of course he has to say that. grumpyduck Jun 2020 #1
Oh, they had a choice, and the choice they made... ret5hd Jun 2020 #2
Pretty much Ahpook Jun 2020 #6
If one of them had thought to put a hand on Chauvin's shoulder and say "Stand up, let him breathe." forgotmylogin Jun 2020 #29
So not that far out from proper training. Lars39 Jun 2020 #3
Bingo. nt crickets Jun 2020 #12
So, my question is...if you don't know right from wrong and are not going to defend the people AllyCat Jun 2020 #4
following orders is not a defence - nuremburg trials nt msongs Jun 2020 #5
Fine- let the rookies plead out to a lesser charge Fiendish Thingy Jun 2020 #7
Police culture is hard, acceptance, etc., Dan Jun 2020 #8
Hopefully this will be changing in the future. BigmanPigman Jun 2020 #9
So what kind of person, exactly, needs or desires... ret5hd Jun 2020 #10
Question or a statement? Dan Jun 2020 #14
Maybe questions with self evident answers? ret5hd Jun 2020 #15
Smiling, was coming back to edit my post...okay Dan Jun 2020 #17
My Guess Would Be RobinA Jun 2020 #30
One of the issues is Chauvin was their training officer OnlinePoker Jun 2020 #22
Was this a twisted initiation ritual to ensure blue loyalty to corrupt Minneapolis PD? lostnfound Jun 2020 #11
That very well could be. roamer65 Jun 2020 #19
Lane, at least, did suggest that Chauvin turn Floyd DeminPennswoods Jun 2020 #13
Yes, my gut feeling is that Lane will get a Not Guilty verdict if he goes to trial Massacure Jun 2020 #25
If I were a juror deciding on what's known at the moment, DeminPennswoods Jun 2020 #27
So, they're trying to paint police violence as what? Some sort of hazing ritual? Lancero Jun 2020 #16
I think this was premeditated 1st degree murder. roamer65 Jun 2020 #18
I suspect the same. Scruffy1 Jun 2020 #21
I agree TreadSoftly Jun 2020 #24
Of Course He Had A Choice, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2020 #20
Two disaster cops were prevented TreadSoftly Jun 2020 #23
They had a choice. SamKnause Jun 2020 #26
I believe Keung & Thao w get lesser sentences while Chauvin will be convicted at onetexan Jun 2020 #28

ret5hd

(20,491 posts)
2. Oh, they had a choice, and the choice they made...
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 08:43 PM
Jun 2020

demonstrated their lack of moral ability to become a police officer.

Ahpook

(2,750 posts)
6. Pretty much
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 09:05 PM
Jun 2020

I saw the look on their face. They looked spooked and confused for sure, but who in their right mind would let that shit carry on?

At the least they have been weeded out early. They clearly lack the character to be a peace officer.

forgotmylogin

(7,528 posts)
29. If one of them had thought to put a hand on Chauvin's shoulder and say "Stand up, let him breathe."
Fri Jun 5, 2020, 10:16 AM
Jun 2020

They might have changed the course of history.

That's not a cop thing, that's a human thing.

AllyCat

(16,187 posts)
4. So, my question is...if you don't know right from wrong and are not going to defend the people
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 08:49 PM
Jun 2020

WHY ARE YOU A COP????? If you cannot tell that murdering someone in cold-blood on the street is wrong...you should be locked up somewhere, not wearing a badge and sporting a weapon that will kill people.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,611 posts)
7. Fine- let the rookies plead out to a lesser charge
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 09:08 PM
Jun 2020

In exchange for testimony that ensures Chauvin gets put away.

Dan

(3,562 posts)
8. Police culture is hard, acceptance, etc.,
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 09:19 PM
Jun 2020

and for a rookie, any mistakes made is a career ender - either with the force or with his peers.

I'm not saying what they did was right, but just saying until you're a part of such a culture - it's just hard.

And it is not just the police where there is a culture where as a rookie you desire acceptance, it's also in the military. Sometimes the confusion sets in...you want to fit in and do the right thing, but....

As someone said in one of the posts here.... for the rookies, maybe a lesser charge in exchange for their testimony.

BigmanPigman

(51,590 posts)
9. Hopefully this will be changing in the future.
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 09:29 PM
Jun 2020

The attitude has to change and we have to never let up until it is normal practice. The police have to change from the bottom to the top. Enough!

ret5hd

(20,491 posts)
10. So what kind of person, exactly, needs or desires...
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 09:34 PM
Jun 2020

approval from someone/group that is clearly causing immediate harm?

And is that the kind of person we need in our police?

Dan

(3,562 posts)
17. Smiling, was coming back to edit my post...okay
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 10:30 PM
Jun 2020

Last edited Thu Jun 4, 2020, 11:07 PM - Edit history (1)

"So what kind of person, exactly, needs or desires...

approval from someone/group that is clearly causing immediate harm?

And is that the kind of person we need in our police?"

I will share my opinion, based on a lot of things in my experiences. First keep in mind that there will always be exceptions to the rule to what I say. Having had experience with both the military and police environments - most people join these organizations with the intent to do the right thing. For instance, when you join the military - the intent is not so much with the desire to kill people, as it is the desire to serve and do right by your country. You accept the fact that the requirements of duty might force you into a situation where you might be required to kill people, you accept that. Hell, there are situation where you can be put in a situation where it can be damn near guaranteed that you will die - you have to accept that, it's part of the devil's bargain that you made. But before you even get to that point, you have the training, the training that helps you understand and appreciate that you are part of a group, a core of people that you work with, train with - and understand that if necessary you will put your life on the line for them. And conversely, they for you. There is, if you would, the brotherhood of trust. None of you think or believe that at some point in your career that you are going to do awful things, illegal things - that's not something you think of....but it happens. It has always happened...and sadly, it will continue to happen. Life is not black or white, there are often times those ugly shades of gray. That is why we also have the UCMJ - to help reinforce the training and guidance you received during training - but what is an academic exercise does not sometime play well in real life situations.

"approval from...." it is not so much that you need the approval from someone or group as much as there has to be an awareness that you will have their back in certain situation, and they will have yours. This is not some blanket approval that you're going to be there to cover wrong doing - no, that is not what someone bargains for or ever hopes to be put in that situation, but for doing your job there is that element of mutual trust. YES, there are bad people that do bad things and you hope that you have the personal moral strength to stand up and do the right thing; not only for the people that you are there to protect but also in support of your own character. Most of us will never have to face that moment of personal judgement but some people have had to face that issue...and what do you do? Do you know what you would do or would have done - it is easy to say ....oh yes, this is what I would have done, there is no doubt about it....but you don't know until that moment of true arrives. Everything you invested in - everything that you have been a part of is now put at risk. {For the rookies, they just didn't know better...for the veteran, he had an obligation to do the right thing}.

"And is that the kind of person we need in our police?".... The question implies a wrongness is inherent in the people that are in law enforcement, I reject that. We need good people in both the military and the police. We need those types of people that are willing to put their lives on the line to protect ours. The type of person that is willing to run into a building on fire, take care of a person with a contagious disease, confront an armed man with the intent to kill, or any other extreme examples that you are willing to consider. Not everyone has the character to do that, but some do, and they step forward to do what most of us probably would not want to do. What we hope and pray for is the type of person, male or female or other that has the moral character to do the right thing. What we want is also a system that has the ability to recognize and weed out those types of people that have a character flaw that makes them unfit for the role. We also need in place a system that has the ability identify those people that have a 'strong man' identity that tells them that once they have a gun or a badge that somehow they have been blessed by God with the arbitrary right to take a life without consideration of the "right or wrong" of the situation. We don't need people like the officer that put his knee to the neck of Mr. Floyd, but we need the officer or person that is willing to die to protect your right to life.

In my opinion, the vast majority of military or police don't start out evil or with a complete or partial disregard for someone else's right to life. But some where in all the years of doing the hard work that most of us could never do - they become hard and a minority of them lose sight of their humanity. As a military person or police person, you don't want to be partners with such a person - and you hope that you (if confronted by that situation or person) have the character to do the right thing by making those with the authority to do the right thing, aware of these types of people AND they are removed. But in some cases, and I hate saying this, the system itself not only wants but needs some of these inhumane types. Not saying it is right...but it is life.

My opinion....wish I could say it better... but hope you understand what I am trying to say... good people sometimes do bad things; we need a system that helps identify when good people start to turn bad; even more we need a system where weak people are not given power that they neither understand nor can appreciate the harm that they can do. And a system that does not punish those that standup and do the right thing, by identifying those that should not be in the positions that they are in....it's hard.


As I think about what I wrote, our current President is a case in point.


RobinA

(9,893 posts)
30. My Guess Would Be
Fri Jun 5, 2020, 11:50 AM
Jun 2020

most people. Swimming against the tide would be quite difficult for most people, and in this case they would have not only had to just not say anything, but they would have had to tell a superior officer to stop doing what he was doing in the spur of the moment and in a culture they were not yet comfortable in. I'm not defending them, but comments saying that they were somehow more deficient than the majority of people are just delusional in my opinion. People want to fit in and not rock the boat. Particularly the personality that gravitates to military or law enforcement, which are highly authoritarian.

It's fine to say, Oh I would speak out in a situation like that, but unless you've actually been in a position where you had to make a decision to put yourself out of your own group, you don't really know. It is hard for some people, impossible for most.

OnlinePoker

(5,719 posts)
22. One of the issues is Chauvin was their training officer
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 11:41 PM
Jun 2020

It's pretty hard, when you're on your 3rd and 4th shift as these two were, to question the person who is writing your evaluations. I know when I was first in the military, that I saw some questionable activity by my superiors but lacked the confidence to call them on it or go over their heads. For the first year, I didn't even know I could do that.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
19. That very well could be.
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 10:34 PM
Jun 2020

Seems like Chauvin was showing off. I think he made that decision beforehand.

DeminPennswoods

(15,286 posts)
13. Lane, at least, did suggest that Chauvin turn Floyd
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 09:43 PM
Jun 2020

on his side, but Chauvin overruled him. As the poster above noted, it's not that easy for a new cop to usurp the authority of the officer in charge.

Massacure

(7,522 posts)
25. Yes, my gut feeling is that Lane will get a Not Guilty verdict if he goes to trial
Fri Jun 5, 2020, 12:06 AM
Jun 2020

I'm not a lawyer, but Chauvin's best scenario is to try and get a plea deal to Murder 3. The presumptive sentence for that is 74-83 months, and the Minnesota's sentencing guidelines states the presumptive sentence should be halved for defendants who take responsibility for their crime. If he gets convicted on Murder 2, he'll get 120-180 months.

If I were in Lane's position, I'd probably reject any plea deal and take my chances with the Jury. I don't have enough information on the actions of the other two.

Here is Minnesota's sentencing guideline:
http://mn.gov/msgc-stat/documents/Guidelines/2019/MinnSentencingGuidelinesCommentary.pdf

DeminPennswoods

(15,286 posts)
27. If I were a juror deciding on what's known at the moment,
Fri Jun 5, 2020, 06:18 AM
Jun 2020

I'd have to give weight to the fact that Lane and Keung were both very new patrol officers. Most of us have been new to our job and know the position you are in as a trainee. You trust that your trainer is telling you the correct thing do and correct information.

I understand the idea that one of the other 3 officers should have stopped Chauvin, but people like Hugh Thompson, the helicopter pilot who stopped the My Lai massacre, are few and far between.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
16. So, they're trying to paint police violence as what? Some sort of hazing ritual?
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 10:28 PM
Jun 2020

The only good thing about these cops being rookies is that they were stopped early enough before they could harm more people. Pity that they didn't have the balls to stand up and, you know, protect the public but at least now no one else will get killed when they eventually decide to, shall we say, move on to hands on training rather than watching and learning.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
18. I think this was premeditated 1st degree murder.
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 10:32 PM
Jun 2020

I think that piece of shit Chauvin made the decision to use Floyd to show off to the rookies.

Scruffy1

(3,256 posts)
21. I suspect the same.
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 11:22 PM
Jun 2020

I know the neighborhood well and finding a bogus $20 bill there is not unusual. If you were stopped by the police you would probably be questioned about it and maybe asked to give your id. The very fact that he immediately decided on an arrest with handcuffs tells me something. I have no evidence, but it looks like he was making sure he was dead. I think premeditation would be hard to prove, but thankful he is off the street. It could have been me who unknowingly got a bogus 20 and died. My girlfriends daughter lived a block from there and I've stopped at the store and it's fairly certain that George Floyd would know the owner would call the police but he stayed at his car like he wasn't worried about it because there's no culpability if you didn't know it was counterfit. In my mind I keep thinking that Chauvin had some kind of personal beef with Floyd and saw a chance to eliminate him. But then I don't know if they actually knew each other. Whatever, second degree murder would be fine and send the message to police officers all over the USA. All this over a measly twenty bucks.
As far as the rookies are just as guilty and were accomplices to capital murder. Nine minutes. Stare at the clock nine minutes and see how long that is. I've had many jobs in my life and not one was worth being an accessory to murder. Every old cop I ever knew had to stop an out of control cop at sometime in his carreer. It's part of the job.

TreadSoftly

(219 posts)
24. I agree
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 11:56 PM
Jun 2020

It had that show-off quality to it -- the John Wayne hands on / near the hips.

And forming a bad habit in new cops. What a jerk.

TreadSoftly

(219 posts)
23. Two disaster cops were prevented
Thu Jun 4, 2020, 11:54 PM
Jun 2020

This is why several police chiefs are using the Floyd case as a learning moment (in particular, Chattanooga chief).

It's a fine opportunity to prevent the "cockpit culture" where subordinates are scared to speak up.

[link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_safety|]

onetexan

(13,041 posts)
28. I believe Keung & Thao w get lesser sentences while Chauvin will be convicted at
Fri Jun 5, 2020, 06:27 AM
Jun 2020

Murder 2. The other senior officer will also be convicted but at a lesser charge.

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