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alp227

(32,020 posts)
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:20 PM Aug 2012

Disabled Students Almost Twice as Likely to Be Suspended, Analysis Finds

Source: The New York Times

Students with disabilities are almost twice as likely to be suspended from school as nondisabled students, with the highest rates among black children with disabilities.

According to a new analysis of Department of Education data, 13 percent of disabled students in kindergarten through 12th grade were suspended during the 2009-2010 school year, compared with 7 percent of students without disabilities. Among African-American children with disabilities, which included with learning difficulties, the rate is even higher: one out of every four was suspended at least once during that school year.

The Center for Civil Rights Remedies at the University of California, Los Angeles, conducted the study of data from the federal education department's Office for Civil Rights, which originally released the raw statistics in March.

Policy makers and civil rights leaders worry about out-of-school suspensions because they are often a precursor to students dropping out of school and can raise a child's risk of future incarceration. School districts with high suspension rates also tend to be correlated with lower student achievement as measured by test scores.

Read more: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/education/analysis-examines-disabled-students-suspensions.xml



http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/school-prison-pipeline
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Disabled Students Almost Twice as Likely to Be Suspended, Analysis Finds (Original Post) alp227 Aug 2012 OP
america heaven05 Aug 2012 #1
That why I advised Parents NOT to permit Suspensions in their IEP for their Children. happyslug Aug 2012 #2
An IEP is about a child's educational plan. It cannot and should not include information about MichiganVote Aug 2012 #3
Many son had an advocate for almost his entire school years Corgigal Aug 2012 #4
Schools requesting the ability to suspend a child is common in Pennsylvania and other states happyslug Aug 2012 #5
If, as you say, a practice of including suspension time in an IEP is common in Penn., MichiganVote Aug 2012 #7
I know several students who are on SSI and are in Public Schools happyslug Aug 2012 #8
I am not attempting to attack you. I am, however, setting other readers straight. MichiganVote Aug 2012 #14
Again, the exemption I mention are NOT for Public Schools, but what we call "State Schools" happyslug Aug 2012 #18
My wife is a public school teacher and had to call the police and have a student with an IEP kelly1mm Aug 2012 #26
I didn't see in the article Butterbean Aug 2012 #6
Constant Complaint in my state, that principals can NOT kick "Disruptive" children out. happyslug Aug 2012 #9
Then the school district can pay to send them to a specilized school Throckmorton Aug 2012 #11
Details? Not as to your child but why the Court found against the School??? happyslug Aug 2012 #24
For one, they didn't not even remotely follow his IEP Throckmorton Aug 2012 #29
Okay. But my kid isn't disruptive, he's in a self Butterbean Aug 2012 #12
In Michigan, many of our students with cognitive disabilities take a state test MichiganVote Aug 2012 #15
They said in his IEP that Butterbean Aug 2012 #19
His scores will count but they are probably registered on a different count. Ask for details. MichiganVote Aug 2012 #20
I have the whole thing recorded, we did ask for details. Butterbean Aug 2012 #21
That kind of makes sense 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #10
Meanwhile the quiet and well behaved students get little attention... Quantess Aug 2012 #13
Think so? Most kids who are truly disruptive just walk out of class if they are not escorted out. MichiganVote Aug 2012 #16
Where do you get that idea, that they just walk out? Quantess Aug 2012 #22
I watch them do it. Its something of a stretch to assume that all kids with disabilities have MichiganVote Aug 2012 #25
This is because the violent proto-sociopathic kids are considered "disabled" Odin2005 Aug 2012 #17
Data also indicates many of these schools were likely to have inexperienced teachers suffragette Aug 2012 #23
My Girlfriends niece is in a online school Tabasco_Dave Aug 2012 #27
+1 rad51 Aug 2012 #28
 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
1. america
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:32 PM
Aug 2012

america the beautiful.. but don't worry, I just know it's those bad disabled and challenged kids causing all those problems

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
2. That why I advised Parents NOT to permit Suspensions in their IEP for their Children.
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:39 PM
Aug 2012

IEP, Individual Education Plans, are the heart of any education for any disabled children. Such plans can include punishment for the child if the child misbehaves. I recommend to any parents NEVER to agree to any form of suspension for any reason in an IEP. You have to remember if the School has a Suspension policy, but your child's IEP forbids such suspension, the child can NOT be suspended. Thus NEVER agree to a suspension in any IEP.

More on IEPs
http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/id15.html

Some schools use suspensions as a way to drive disabled children out of their school, but NOT agreeing to suspensions you prevent that from happening. If the School insist on a suspension policy, do NOT agree, and demand a hearing. At the hearing, which is held at the school BUT presided over by someone in the educational field NOT related to the School and paid for by the State gets to resolve all disputes. Such officers will almost NEVER agree to a suspension policy in an IEP without very good cause (and that is hard for a school to show, and when the School can show such good cause, the child is already in some place where restraints can be used i.e. some form of state run special needs school, thus such children are RARELY in a public school in the first place and therefore NOT the type of child that will be suspenseful).

 

MichiganVote

(21,086 posts)
3. An IEP is about a child's educational plan. It cannot and should not include information about
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:56 PM
Aug 2012

school policies re: suspensions. Having said that, a Behavior Support Plan may include an alternative to a suspension. IEP's do not replace a school discipline policy. Sorry, but the information that you are giving people is in error. Parents of any child may protest a school discipline policy or procedure, not just those with disabilities. In the case of student's with disabilities, the laws are very clear about what a school's responsibilities are and what a student's rights are. The student's rights are given to families at least once a year and usually several times a year. Most communities have advocate agencies to assist families also.

"Some" schools, (no link or # of schools) is not a convincing argument.

To educators, asking for a hearing usually means that parents/guardians have decided that a legal issue is involved. A school district will avail themselves of an attorney that is paid through the tax dollars. Parents, on the other hand, must supply their own at their expense, if they want one. That is a costly and usually unnecessary option.

Regarding the matter of restraints...schools are mandated to provide significant training to staff. If they don't then they are fools. The training is intended for use only in those situations where the student presents harm to himself or others. Otherwise its hands off. There are a number of safety regulations when using appropriate safe restraints.

Corgigal

(9,291 posts)
4. Many son had an advocate for almost his entire school years
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:05 PM
Aug 2012

started at second grade and went to his 12th. He was free, went to every IEP and once he was in place the school district treated my husband and I different. My son, who has central auditory processing disorder, now attends Berea College in Kentucky with a full 4 year ride. My son is a success story, who just needed a little more time at first to get his educational instruction. Many parents don't know they exist, schools certainly don't tell you.

http://www.copaa.org/

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
5. Schools requesting the ability to suspend a child is common in Pennsylvania and other states
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:18 PM
Aug 2012

It is so common, that we have to tell parents NOT to agree to them in an IEP. Thus, common in Pennsylvania and other states. Pennsylvania had one school district that always demanded the right to Suspend students for "misbehaving" and insistent such suspension be in the IEP. Parents would agree UNLESS they knew they could say NO, which is what I advise them to say if it comes up.

My comments on restraints reflect the SSI cases I have had where the Child has been in restraints, such children are NEVER in public schools, but special education schools run by the state. I brought them up ONLY to clarify when a School could win the right to suspend a student for misbehaving. In most cases almost impossible for the School to win, for the only time such restraints are needed are in such special education school (And rare in them).

 

MichiganVote

(21,086 posts)
7. If, as you say, a practice of including suspension time in an IEP is common in Penn.,
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:09 PM
Aug 2012

then it is uncommon in other states. Just as an aside, there are many students who meet SSI criteria who go to traditional public, charter or private schools. And some of them are safely restrained from harm.

There is no "in restraint" place or material that won't get a school in trouble.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
8. I know several students who are on SSI and are in Public Schools
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 04:53 PM
Aug 2012

The Second of the two tests for Child hood SSI, is simple, is the child substantially below children of his or her age? Children can meet that test AND still finish High School. The first test is does the Child meet one of the Listings in the Listing of Impairments issued by SSA. If yes, disabled, if no go to test #2. Children can meet test #1 AND still finish High School. Such children are the most endangered if a school is permitted in the Child IEP to permit being Suspended. Furthermore, the principals of certain school are noted for complaining they can NOT kick such Children out of their school, complaining such children are to disruptive to the school as a whole.

As to my comments as to "Restraints" it was to cover those rare cases of someone who is a severe problem and as such are in some sort of State operated School/Hospital. I mention it as a very narrow exception that does NOT include students in Public Schools (but does occur in such Hospitals/School for such severe Children). I mentioned them for they do exists, and I have run across them in my 20 years of SSI practice, but such children are NEVER in regular public schools and are always in some special school where the personnel has had the training to deal with such children. What do you do with a child you can NOT medicate AND violate to themselves and others on a constant, every hour they are awake basis. They do exist, they are in special schools. They are also almost never seen. I am NOT talking about children in regular public school. That very narrow exception is for such high problem children, placed in such schools generally by court order. I regret having mentioned them, but I have been attacked for NOT mentioning these very small in number exceptions, now you are making an attack saying I give this an option to all public school, something I made clear from the Start I was NOT. There are probably more mass murders then the number of children that meets requirement I mention, but all I was doing was mentioning that there do exist and physical force has to be used on them.

 

MichiganVote

(21,086 posts)
14. I am not attempting to attack you. I am, however, setting other readers straight.
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 08:20 PM
Aug 2012

So for their benefit:

1. Safe restraint procedures in the schools by trained personnel does not include physical force. It may require specifically prescribed ways of containing a student, of maintaining the student's safety while holding them in a specific way. Safe restraint is not corporal punishment. Safe restraint always involves the concurrent use of defusing methods, such as talking to the student, calming words and so on.

2. Any child who presents a hazard to themselves or to others in any school setting may be safely restrained AND are to be let go as soon as other defusing methods are effective in calming them down.

3. Police are not required to utilize the school safe restraint procedures. (In my experience, they usually do)

4. Children with severe behavior issues are not and should not be placed in center based programs only. They usually attend public schools with special programming first. That is because of a legal mandate called, LRE, Least Restrictive Education. When a student receives special education, ostensibly a goal is to remove them from their peers as little as possible for their educational benefit. LRE is required. All school teams must consider LRE. For most children, while not problem free, they make educational progress in public schools with support. For those whose behavior consistently impairs their ability to achieve progress, special center based programming may be an option. Except in the case of private treatment centers or schools, center based programming is a part of the public school system.

5. Different states and localities may have different procedures. However every parent or caregiver receives a Parent Rights Handbook and all areas have a Special Education Monitor for questions. As stated in a previous post, advocates are usually available thru community agencies. An attorney to represent a student's interests may also be hired and paid for by the family or caregivers.

6. Although Special Education has a ton of acronyms, SSI is not one of them. SSI involves the Social Security office and is separate from anything involving the schools.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
18. Again, the exemption I mention are NOT for Public Schools, but what we call "State Schools"
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:45 PM
Aug 2012

i.e. for the severely mentally restricted. The rule you cite does NOT apply to them, and could not apply to them. It is a very narrow exemption for those children where there is no other reasonable alternative. Again I point out this narrow exemption is NOT IN SCHOOLS. A case I ran across years ago was a 12 year old who could NOT speak, could NOT be controlled by Medication, and hit anyone he saw with is fists. This is the "Typical" exemption I was discussing when I made my comment about a narrow exemption. How do you handle him? He is old enough that when he hits he is doing DAMAGE, medication will not work on him, how do you control him? Police are NEVER called in such cases, for the schools such children are in have the personnel and training to handle such children better then the police. I mention this over and over again that this narrow exemption I mention is NOT DONE IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, and you keep bring back Public School regulations. Such children exist in every state, how do you handle them? With reasonable restraints and every so often a Judge has to review the level of restraints.

Again, I regret having made the comment acknowledging that such children exists and every state has regulations on how they are to be handled, and that include the use of restraints and other PHYSICAL RESTRICTIONS. These Children are NOT subject to the rules you cite, most are placed by order of a judge on recommendation of a Medical doctor. These children can NOT be placed with the general population, but they have to be placed somewhere.

Now, years ago, more children were placed in such State Schools then are today, more and more disabled children are placed in regular school and "Mainstreamed", but they are some who can NOT be placed in regular schools. mostly do to severe violence tied up with their mental condition. Medications have held reduced this group even more, but they still exist and as long as they exist restraints will be used if all else fails (Which is the test in the State Schools).

We should leave this die,for we are talking about two different set of children. The narrow exemption I mention are those children who are un-trainable or need almost one to one care. I regret mentioning them, they are NEVER in public schools (and may live their entire life in an institution).

The regulations you cite are for those children in school, but can survive with assistance in regular schools (Which can include some one with the child during the entire school day who may ever go home with the child as part of the child's education). Sometime such children have two or three people assisting them, each one aiding another aspect of the child's life. This is all part of special education and works (And again NOT the class of students I mention subject to the restraints I mentioned above and I will NOT mention them again).

I brought up the problem with suspending such children (Again I am excluding the children in State Schools) for it is more common then a lot of people want to admit. Suspending Children and thus slowly forcing them out of school seems to be a policy of several school districts (More to improve their image and their test scores then any other reason). I have read of such unwritten policy in various school districts, not only in Pennsylvania but throughout the US. The policy is unwritten for it would be technically illegal in all states (AND THAT IS WHY THE POLICY IS UNWRITTEN). Such schools deny such a policy, but looking over who they suspend and expel (Or get to drop out) it becomes clear it is they policy (But impossible to prove, for they always deny it). Parents in such schools have to be careful and thus why I tell Parents with children who are disabled to NEVER agree to suspension in their child's IEPs. Schools ask for such right to suspend more often then we like the care, and once the child is suspended, if permitted by the child IEP, it is hard to undo.

Thus I fully understand why the original poster pointed out this huge differences in numbers when it comes to disabled children. I have seen it in action and it is better to prepare for such a fight by NEVER agreeing to suspension in the Child's IEP.

kelly1mm

(4,733 posts)
26. My wife is a public school teacher and had to call the police and have a student with an IEP
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 01:58 PM
Aug 2012

arrested as the IEP did not allow suspensions. Student ended up being sent to state school for incarcerated youth. The incident was indecent exposure. Student was incarcerated for 18 months and when returned to school, the IEP was modified to allow suspensions per parents request.

Butterbean

(1,014 posts)
6. I didn't see in the article
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:38 PM
Aug 2012

I wonder if the suspended students were in self contained classrooms or mainstreamed classrooms when the behaviors that led to the suspensions occurred. Just stuff I think about, since my son needs to be in a self contained AU classroom, and I really can't imagine his teachers suspending him for acting out. After some disturbing things that went down with the school district and us last year that have led to us having to now record all our IEP meetings and bring a lawyer to them, I don't take anything for granted.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
9. Constant Complaint in my state, that principals can NOT kick "Disruptive" children out.
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 04:59 PM
Aug 2012

It is a constant complaint of High School principals in my State, that they can NOT kick out all of the disruptive students from their school due to the terms of the student's IEP. Several Principals have said they wanted to kick such handicap children out for many have mental problems and as such hard to educate (i.e. will not stay in their seat, will talk in class, will not do home work etc). Most of such principals worry about the testing under "No Children Left Behind law" for such handicap children (again mostly those with mental problems) bring down the school average on tests. Given that funding is tied in with the Standardized tests, huge incentive to kick such students out of the school, anyway you can.

Throckmorton

(3,579 posts)
11. Then the school district can pay to send them to a specilized school
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 05:50 PM
Aug 2012

One that deals with their particular disorder.

I just won a court case in superior court this afternoon, getting my son placed in just such a setting. It took 3 years of fighting and major expense, but the school district has lost, and unless they want to go to Federal Court, they are stuck, also stuck paying my attorney fees as a part of the settlement.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
24. Details? Not as to your child but why the Court found against the School???
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 01:14 PM
Aug 2012

Most times the courts will defer to the School as the "Expert" in the field, the school has to be really out of what is reasonable for the School to lose. Thus the request for details, not as to your child's disability but why the Court found the actions of the School "unreasonable". I know it may be a hard wall to separate, your child's disability and the Court's rejection of the School's educational proposal, but I am more interested in the Court's rationale to overturn the decision of the school then the details of your child's disability,

Throckmorton

(3,579 posts)
29. For one, they didn't not even remotely follow his IEP
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 11:16 AM
Aug 2012

and their own experts report clearly stated that he needed a residential setting, which caused the asst superintendent to actually testify that their choice of expert was flawed and he still believed they could teach him at their high school.
Our expert witnesses (3 in fact, one of whom had spent an entire day observing my son in school) basically all agreed on what was needed, and our lawyer and my sons Guardian Ad Litem ate the super alive over his comments.

It was a good day.

My son has started at his new school, whom presented a nice fat bill to the school system on Thursday.

Butterbean

(1,014 posts)
12. Okay. But my kid isn't disruptive, he's in a self
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 05:50 PM
Aug 2012

contained classroom because he's autistic and mildly mentally retarded, and mainstreaming isn't appropriate. As for the NCLB bullshit, part of the reason we are now having to bring lawyers with us to IEPs and tape them is because we were lied to when we asked that our son be retained a grade. Long story short, you'd think being autistic and mentally retarded and scoring "does not meet standards" straight across the board would be enough, but nope. Retention is an ugly word, even when the parents want it.

My child will start taking the school wide standardized test next year, and it worries me. I feel like he has a target on his head because he won't do well and will bring down the scores, hence, bring in less money. It sucks to even feel that way, but there it is. I'm worried the principal will want him out of the school because he's not "normal."

 

MichiganVote

(21,086 posts)
15. In Michigan, many of our students with cognitive disabilities take a state test
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 08:26 PM
Aug 2012

Called MI-Access. There are three levels. From the sound of things, your son would probably need to take level II or III. Ask them for what they can provide that is similar to the Brigance Developmental Inventory. Your child should not have to take the standard District or State testing. Retention is not the answer for your child. IMO.

Butterbean

(1,014 posts)
19. They said in his IEP that
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:25 PM
Aug 2012

he takes a modified version of the test (there are 3 options), but that his scores still count towards the entire school. We wanted him retained for a lot of reasons, and with all due respect, as his parents who are in the thick of the situation, I think we know whether or not retention is the answer. It's been a rotten school year, and I'm still raw from what went down with the district.

Butterbean

(1,014 posts)
21. I have the whole thing recorded, we did ask for details.
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:37 PM
Aug 2012

They broke it down for us and explained it to us. This meeting unfortunately took place 2 days before the last day of school, after months of drama (no other way to put it), so by that time, my brain was shot. My 4 year old was also in attendance of the meeting because we have no childcare but us. 2 more reasons I am SO glad we are recording the meetings now.

Our autism society chapter has parent advocates, and I have been in touch with them. They are very helpful and will attend our next IEP with us. I've also been in touch with my state's disability rights chapter, and they have been super helpful. Duke has a program where law students give free legal assistance wrt educational matters to families of special needs students. There's an 18 month waiting list, but I'm going to get on it anyway.

It just sucks, because I really really did trust everybody on the team for so long, and never went into a single IEP with an adversarial attitude. I'm one of those gullible souls who takes people at their word, and trusts freely. After all this, I don't trust anybody, and am completely on my guard with all of them, just waiting for them to try to pull some more crap.

I just want my kid to be happy, to be functionally literate and have functional basic math skills, have friends, and be able to hold down a job and maybe eventually be able to do stuff like fix himself a meal and wash his own clothes. That is all. I don't think I'm asking for too much.

Sorry...kinda went off on a bitchy little tangent there. Beg pardon.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
10. That kind of makes sense
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 05:38 PM
Aug 2012

since they included learning disabilities.

I could see teachers a teacher getting frustrated with a student who isn't learning as fast as the others and is taking up more of her time. Likewise I could see a kid picking up on that and being frustrated at himself because of it. And both those could lead to behavioral problems.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
13. Meanwhile the quiet and well behaved students get little attention...
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 05:56 PM
Aug 2012

The teachers turn all their energy toward the disruptive ones, at the expense of the rest of the class.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
22. Where do you get that idea, that they just walk out?
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 03:52 AM
Aug 2012

They often already have a paraprofessional hovering around them, and they get to visit all the special educators. They are the subjects of individual team meetings. All these professionals spend countless hours and resources devoted to the special education students, and/or students with behavior issues on their IEP. Meanwhile the well behaved, quiet, average-to-smart students get pretty much ignored.

 

MichiganVote

(21,086 posts)
25. I watch them do it. Its something of a stretch to assume that all kids with disabilities have
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 01:41 PM
Aug 2012

parapro aide support. And its a stretch to assume that "quiet, average to-smart students are "pretty much ignored". Sounds like you have experienced some personal frustration.

If students are meeting the class expectations, they generally do not require the sort of supports kids with disabilities need.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
17. This is because the violent proto-sociopathic kids are considered "disabled"
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 08:47 PM
Aug 2012

I would assume most of the suspended "disabled" kids are the uncontrollable, violent proto-sociopaths that make the lives of all the other special ed kids miserable. I was one of those special ed kids who suffered from those types.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
23. Data also indicates many of these schools were likely to have inexperienced teachers
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 10:02 AM
Aug 2012

Found the article in OP with links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/education/analysis-examines-disabled-students-suspensions.html?pagewanted=all

Going to one of the links:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/education/black-students-face-more-harsh-discipline-data-shows.html?_r=1

The data also showed that schools with a lot of black and Hispanic students were likely to have relatively inexperienced, and low-paid, teachers. On average, teachers in high-minority schools were paid $2,251 less per year than their colleagues elsewhere. In New York high schools, though, the discrepancy was more than $8,000, and in Philadelphia, more than $14,000.

Additional eye opening points:

The department began gathering data on civil rights and education in 1968, but the project was suspended by the Bush administration in 2006. It has been reinstated and expanded to examine a broader range of information, including, for the first time, referrals to law enforcement, an area of increasing concern to civil rights advocates who see the emergence of a school-to-prison pipeline for a growing number of students of color.

According to the schools’ reports, over 70 percent of the students involved in school-related arrests or referred to law enforcement were Hispanic or black.

Black and Hispanic students — particularly those with disabilities — are also disproportionately subject to seclusion or restraints. Students with disabilities make up 12 percent of the student body, but 70 percent of those subject to physical restraints. Black students with disabilities constituted 21 percent of the total, but 44 percent of those with disabilities subject to mechanical restraints, like being strapped down. And while Hispanics made up 21 percent of the students without disabilities, they accounted for 42 percent of those without disabilities who were placed in seclusion.


Returning to the article in the OP:

Teachers struggle to deal with students who may be disruptive. “What most teachers complain about is that they have problem children and nobody helps them,” said Karen Lewis, president of the Chicago Teachers Union, citing ratio of students to social workers that was more than 1,000 to 1 in the district.

According to the Civil Rights Project analysis, Chicago schools suspended nearly 63 percent of their black students with disabilities in 2009-10.

~~~

In Memphis, Patricia Toarmina, director of special education, said the district had received a grant to hire more social workers to help children with disabilities cope with situations that might cause them to misbehave.



Did not know, but not surprised that such appropriate and quantifiable study was suspended by the Bush team.

I'm glad that this project was reinstated so that so these disparities are identified (and identified in more than anecdotal ways) so they can be addressed. And retention of experienced, well qualified and trained teachers and additional resources such as more social workers being assigned both stand out as elements which are needed and helpful.


Tabasco_Dave

(1,259 posts)
27. My Girlfriends niece is in a online school
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 03:19 AM
Aug 2012

and says she would never go back to regular school. I wish i had it when i was her age.

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