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LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:04 PM Jan 2017

'Calexit' supporters can start work to make ballot

Source: The Hill

Californians who want their state to secede from the United States can now start collecting signatures to put the initiative on the 2018 ballot.

The Yes California Independence Campaign has been around for at least two years, but saw the election of President Trump only increase momentum for the so-called “Calexit” cause. Trump lost California by more than 4 million votes, fueling interest in a Calexit—a play on the British Brexit campaign that saw that country's voters decide to leave the European Union.

The California Secretary of State’s office announced that the group could begin collecting signatures on Thursday.

The group needs 585,407 signatures from registered voters over the next 180 days to qualify for the ballot.

If the 2018 ballot initiative passes, it would force a 2019 statewide special election asking voters if they want California to become an independent country.

Read more: http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/316461-supporters-of-calexit-movement-can-begin-collecting-signatures-to



#MicDrop All That Can Be Said Is Go California, Go! If Californians refuse to allow their Beautiful State to be destroyed by Cheeto Trumpskin who can blame them. And maybe, just maybe, this #Calexit Move will make some of those folks in the Middle wake up and realize Cheeto is destroying American Democracy and Unity as we knew it.
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'Calexit' supporters can start work to make ballot (Original Post) LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 OP
If it happens, I hope they have enough space, water and jobs for the mass immigration meadowlark5 Jan 2017 #1
Maybe it could become a movement.... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #5
I prefer Texexit, Utexit, or Alabamexit AllTooEasy Jan 2017 #63
Exactly. And the Russians want it also... pangaia Jan 2017 #105
They don't have water now. sweetloukillbot Jan 2017 #82
United States of Canada Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2017 #2
weird isn't it. I remember once upon a time... Javaman Jan 2017 #38
Alberta, humm.. pangaia Jan 2017 #109
Alberta has a New Democratic Party NDP government now after 40 years of Conservatives Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2017 #121
Thanks... pangaia Jan 2017 #122
Wonder Will #NYExit Be Next? LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #3
If NY and Cali left, it would become the United States of Texas. Javaman Jan 2017 #40
Yeah, we need California if we're ever to have any hope christx30 Jan 2017 #128
What a waste of time. money and effort Galileo126 Jan 2017 #4
Some Things.... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #6
Yeah, remember when half the people who voted for Brexit thought it was a symbolic vote? Iggo Jan 2017 #11
And It Would Be Up To The People of California.... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #22
I'm a proud and informed California voter, but please don't forget Proposition 8. Iggo Jan 2017 #41
Fair Point... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #45
Technically, it was SoCalNative Jan 2017 #66
And what symbolic message will be sent when the calexit vote loses by millions onenote Jan 2017 #18
I would hope... The_Voice_of_Reason Jan 2017 #7
It's too bad so many conservative states kind of break up a good section of the country meadowlark5 Jan 2017 #9
Oregon and Washington too? Now that's an idea, the 3 contiguous most western states... brush Jan 2017 #16
"Pacifica" yodermon Jan 2017 #118
Paxit or bust. meadowlander Jan 2017 #130
Losing all the ports will devastate the US LeftInTX Jan 2017 #35
I am fine The_Voice_of_Reason Jan 2017 #42
Agreed. Using Calexit as a bargaining chip may help to fix or ditch the Electoral College brush Jan 2017 #131
I would like to see Nevada and Hawaii, along with California, Oregon and Washington State. Tikki Jan 2017 #112
viva reformed california AllaN01Bear Jan 2017 #8
Better to have the West Coast and New England down through the NYC Metro area join Canada. nt geek tragedy Jan 2017 #10
Calexit Polly Hennessey Jan 2017 #12
The US would go broke if Cali left. Ligyron Jan 2017 #13
California is projecting a budget deficit for 2017-18 onenote Jan 2017 #21
If tax money went to California rather than the federal government the deficit could be kimbutgar Jan 2017 #49
It's not that simple AllTooEasy Jan 2017 #124
CA currently gets back 78 cents for every fed tax dollar. displacedtexan Jan 2017 #73
Try making the Federal Government pay rent. onenote Jan 2017 #76
The House has voted to ease the rule on returning fed lands to states and tribes. displacedtexan Jan 2017 #86
Link? Returning land to states was part of repub platform onenote Jan 2017 #89
Here's one. There are several sources via Google. displacedtexan Jan 2017 #129
Finding allies and trade partners will be impossible if the US imposes travel and trade onenote Jan 2017 #134
Even if for no other reason than to preserve a future for us. TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #14
See post #16. You added Hawaii to the mix. I don't know... brush Jan 2017 #23
Not only is it dumb, but the fact that the whole campaign is being Blue_Tires Jan 2017 #15
Have you been paying any attention at all!!! TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #20
And your proof of this is.... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #25
Are you really that bad at Google? Blue_Tires Jan 2017 #36
Yes, actually... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #43
I especially liked how you immediately dismissed the evidence, then simply ignored it. LanternWaste Jan 2017 #47
Yes, We Did... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #56
Are you in California? haele Jan 2017 #50
I'm in California and nobody is taking this seriously. Throd 2.0 Jan 2017 #51
Nice dodge when confronted with evidence... Blue_Tires Jan 2017 #58
Thank you. octoberlib Jan 2017 #141
Works for me! Plucketeer Jan 2017 #17
Calexit is a Russian operation. The organizer is currently living in Russia. haele Jan 2017 #19
Thanks Haele. This info should chill us all to the bone. Hekate Jan 2017 #24
And again, your proof of this is.... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #26
It's true fountainofyouth Jan 2017 #28
Sources politicat Jan 2017 #29
So here is a logical question or two.... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #34
*Sigh* okay, let's go back to Destabilization 101. politicat Jan 2017 #55
Google is your friend... Louis J. Marinelli is the founder of "Yes California" haele Jan 2017 #33
Yes, It Is... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #37
Well what do you suggest as an alternative? TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #27
Do you live here in California? Or are you just wanting to see Trump fail in the U.S. haele Jan 2017 #46
Lastly....There are HUGE hurdles to reach here... LovingA2andMI Jan 2017 #30
so what??? TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #32
One organizer, there are others...this has been going on for years..always follow the money.. Tikki Jan 2017 #115
Absurd and immature. If this makes the ballot I will vote against it ... Auggie Jan 2017 #31
the worst idea AlexSFCA Jan 2017 #39
The people will always win. TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #44
"The people will always win." North Korean's beg to differ... EX500rider Jan 2017 #114
My part of the state wants to secede from California. Throd 2.0 Jan 2017 #48
Since Trump's north korean twin wants to lob a nuke at the US meadowlark5 Jan 2017 #52
This kind of nonsense empowers Trump. E.A.B. Jan 2017 #53
Calexit headed by guy in Russia delisen Jan 2017 #54
My fantasy would be Ecotopia SpankMe Jan 2017 #57
Tell me how the last states melm00se Jan 2017 #59
The last States that tried to secede TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #61
California is not a European state melm00se Jan 2017 #64
You're not responding to my central point TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #69
The pressure to back down will be from the Federal government on California onenote Jan 2017 #77
Actually 4Q2u2 Jan 2017 #81
No, doesn't need to be a shooting war. That's so last century. haele Jan 2017 #88
Those were already autonomous states. Big difference from the states in the U.S.A. haele Jan 2017 #80
Is Cambridge Analytica behind this one as well? nt EarthFirst Jan 2017 #60
Why the fuck not? ghostsinthemachine Jan 2017 #62
Also in NORCAL The River Jan 2017 #65
No, State of Jefferson is idiotic ghostsinthemachine Jan 2017 #67
Your attitude is why the Jefferson movement exists. Throd 2.0 Jan 2017 #68
Okay, I think ghostsinthemachine Jan 2017 #70
The hope is to get us busy on something that won't work marlakay Jan 2017 #71
To my Original argument TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #72
Those same differences exist with California. Throd 2.0 Jan 2017 #74
Perhaps, but. TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #75
They may Vote but there are a lot of others who will want a say. 4Q2u2 Jan 2017 #78
Just look at history. TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #79
History 4Q2u2 Jan 2017 #83
My point exactly. TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #84
Then you missed the point 4Q2u2 Jan 2017 #85
Not a valid comparison TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #90
Soviet Union 4Q2u2 Jan 2017 #94
Consensus TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #97
How did they get there 4Q2u2 Jan 2017 #101
Because we are in a crisis!!! TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #103
That is right 4Q2u2 Jan 2017 #113
This is different. TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #117
It is an interesting academic excersize, ManiacJoe Jan 2017 #87
I hope Calfornians realize this is a Russian plot WhiteTara Jan 2017 #91
So what? TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #92
And who thinks Trump won't send in the troops to stop it? Pathwalker Jan 2017 #93
Karen does not 4Q2u2 Jan 2017 #95
See Quabec TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #96
Facts not in evidence 4Q2u2 Jan 2017 #98
Forgive my spelling TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #100
Do you seriously believe Trump wouldn't? Pathwalker Jan 2017 #110
I will go to my grave... TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #111
That doesn't answer my question. Yould just be one of many Pathwalker Jan 2017 #116
Well, I suppose everyone has a right to their own opinion then TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #120
Isn't secession illegal? sakabatou Jan 2017 #99
So was the American Revolution TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #102
What's your point? sakabatou Jan 2017 #106
I only wish to suggest that stating that something is illegal does not make it wrong. TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #108
Texas v. White says otherwise sakabatou Jan 2017 #123
Don't do it. The Russians want this to happen... pangaia Jan 2017 #104
So did the French TranssexualKaren Jan 2017 #107
as a Proud Californian BamaRefugee Jan 2017 #119
Pop quiz! Name the US Presidents from California struggle4progress Jan 2017 #125
I can only think of one who was born here. Throd 2.0 Jan 2017 #126
Another was governor. The third had an association with Stanford struggle4progress Jan 2017 #127
Just thought of something. Calexit can be used as a bargaining chip to get the electoral college ... brush Jan 2017 #132
You should probably clarify your "should have". ManiacJoe Jan 2017 #135
California should have more EC votes because of its 38m people. brush Jan 2017 #140
This is the only reason... LompocDem Jan 2017 #139
Did someone lose a basket of socks? n/t X_Digger Jan 2017 #133
No no no no no no no AgadorSparticus Jan 2017 #136
And what about the counties which have always been interested in the state of Jefferson? S_B_Jackson Jan 2017 #137
California will stay and fight for our country, as will New York and Illinois. Tatiana Jan 2017 #138

AllTooEasy

(1,261 posts)
63. I prefer Texexit, Utexit, or Alabamexit
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 02:29 PM
Jan 2017

Last edited Fri Jan 27, 2017, 05:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Peeling off parts of America that are liberal will play right into Right-wing hands. They are already peeling off parts with Gerrymandering and voter suppression. Why help them more with the ultimate right-wing victory?

Recall the "Back to Africa" movement. Blacks didn't take it seriously, but Southern White bigots supported the idea with big donations. I believe that a present-day, homeless Black man would be a millionaire within a year if he took a tin can labelled "Back to Africa" around Mississippi's all-White neighborhoods.

Recall when George Clooney and other liberals said that they would move to Canada if Bush won. After Bush won, Conservatives lined up to buy them tickets.

I prefer a strategy that peels off the conservative parts of America. I've never opposed the succession of Texas or another succession of Confederate States. Let them go! If Hillary had won, such talk would have magnified. I would have contributed financially and logistically to those campaigns.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
105. Exactly. And the Russians want it also...
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:33 PM
Jan 2017

In fact they are backing and encouraging the whole idea..

sweetloukillbot

(11,435 posts)
82. They don't have water now.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:51 PM
Jan 2017

And if they secede they're sure as hell not going to get access to the Colorado...

Javaman

(62,608 posts)
38. weird isn't it. I remember once upon a time...
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:56 PM
Jan 2017

when Quebec was trying to opt out of Canada and the Easter Provence's were wondering what to do being so far and separated from their national capital by a 'foreign nation". Many of them were seriously considering motions to become part of the U.S.

Oh have times have changed.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
109. Alberta, humm..
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:36 PM
Jan 2017

I don't know much about the differences btw Alberta and Saskaatcheewan,, except that Calgary is in Alberta and I can't spell the other one.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,331 posts)
121. Alberta has a New Democratic Party NDP government now after 40 years of Conservatives
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:56 PM
Jan 2017

Same year as Trudeau won a Liberal majority nationwide turning out the Conservatives who had national power for 10 years.

The NDP are more liberal than the Liberals, and, no surprise, more liberal than the US Democratic Party.

So the map is fluid, possibly not accurate, and of course only meant to be provocative to get people thinking

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
3. Wonder Will #NYExit Be Next?
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:13 PM
Jan 2017

Maybe just maybe this needs to become a movement in the Progressive States (the ones leaning Democrat in State House/Senate/Governorship or at least one of those) EVERYWHERE.

If Cheeto Trumpskin and the Reichtag crew of blind followers want to Destroy American Democracy, Unity and Freedom -- this can be one of the ways to #StandUp and #FightBack.

#TheResistance in Action!

Javaman

(62,608 posts)
40. If NY and Cali left, it would become the United States of Texas.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:57 PM
Jan 2017

Frankly, I think Illinois would be close behind to leave as well.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
128. Yeah, we need California if we're ever to have any hope
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 07:39 PM
Jan 2017

of defeating the GOP in 2018 and 2020. You take away California, and Trump wins the election by nearly 10 million votes. And if he won all of the other states he won on Black Tuesday, he'd have the electoral and popular votes.
I'm in Texas, so my vote for Hillary did absolutely jack to help her. We need Cali as a bulwark against GOP insanity.

Galileo126

(2,016 posts)
4. What a waste of time. money and effort
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:14 PM
Jan 2017

Speaking as a Californian, it would be better to use our economic muscle as Americans (not a rogue state) to fight this douche bag.

We will be the thorn in Cheeto's side! We are a sanctuary state, and given the fact we give more than we take (taxes, Fed dollars, etc) - we have that "muscle".

I don't want to secede. I want to use our power to make the Cheeto bend down and kiss our asses!

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
6. Some Things....
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:16 PM
Jan 2017

Can be symbolic or real. And either way, California is showing in live and living color its Economic Power and Muscle. IOHO...that is a Really Good Thing -- regardless of whatever happens with #Calexit.

Iggo

(47,728 posts)
11. Yeah, remember when half the people who voted for Brexit thought it was a symbolic vote?
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:23 PM
Jan 2017

Good times.

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
22. And It Would Be Up To The People of California....
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:33 PM
Jan 2017

To DECIDE IF #Calexit is placed upon a ballot. And equally, if to vote #Calexit in if it does.

The People of California are not misinformed in the least as displayed by the 4 million vote lead and win for Hillary Clinton in the November 2016, General Election.

They will make the right choice for them.

Meanwhile, those interested in what they ultimately will decide to do, can watch.

Iggo

(47,728 posts)
41. I'm a proud and informed California voter, but please don't forget Proposition 8.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:58 PM
Jan 2017

Don't underestimate the stupidity of the mob.

onenote

(43,299 posts)
18. And what symbolic message will be sent when the calexit vote loses by millions
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:29 PM
Jan 2017

as is all but certain to happen.


7. I would hope...
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:17 PM
Jan 2017

that both Oregon and Washington on the west coast follow suit...I'd also love to see New York and a few other east coast states join this movement to withdraw.

meadowlark5

(2,795 posts)
9. It's too bad so many conservative states kind of break up a good section of the country
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:21 PM
Jan 2017

If California, Oregon and Washington became it's own nation, I sure wish it could scoop over and take Nevada and Colorado with it, but you have that pesky Chaffetz state of Utah boogering the whole thing up.

brush

(54,588 posts)
16. Oregon and Washington too? Now that's an idea, the 3 contiguous most western states...
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:29 PM
Jan 2017

Last edited Fri Jan 27, 2017, 09:49 PM - Edit history (2)

as one country.

Huh?

No, that probably won't work as it would deprive the rest of the country from a western coast and all its ports, and Cali's fertile lands.

Might start a war.

42. I am fine
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:59 PM
Jan 2017

with the USA losing their ports. This election has made it clear that our votes do not count, that our destiny is being manipulated and controlled by the Red(neck) states.

Tikki

(14,589 posts)
112. I would like to see Nevada and Hawaii, along with California, Oregon and Washington State.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:40 PM
Jan 2017

You all know that Colorado and New Mexico also voted BLUE. Hope we could help them, also.

Tikki

Polly Hennessey

(6,884 posts)
12. Calexit
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:23 PM
Jan 2017

It's not "trumpie" so much as it is a deep desire to leave the jerks who make up the "Jesusland confederacy". I am a native Californian and am so grateful for that. You do realize that we will still have to contend with the State of Jefferson crowd. I just happen to live right in the middle of them. Will say this for them, they never give up.

Ligyron

(7,700 posts)
13. The US would go broke if Cali left.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:25 PM
Jan 2017

Throw NY in and it would be permanent poverty in Jesus Land.

The hellhole Trump claims it is now would finally be a reality.

onenote

(43,299 posts)
21. California is projecting a budget deficit for 2017-18
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:32 PM
Jan 2017

And where would California get the money to continue to make social security payments to millions of its citizens?

And if the federal government slaps financial sanctions or tariffs on California products, there is going to be a lot of rotting lettuce and out of work folks in California.

kimbutgar

(21,527 posts)
49. If tax money went to California rather than the federal government the deficit could be
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 01:19 PM
Jan 2017

Managed and cut. Give us our part of the social security money.

AllTooEasy

(1,261 posts)
124. It's not that simple
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 06:13 PM
Jan 2017

I often hear this argument from the Texas Succession crowd. Here's the problem: California (like Texas) pays part of the Federal gov't expenses. For Cali, that part is over 1/50, but not nearly 1/10th. If Cali succeeded, they would have to pay %100 of their Federal expenses. Specifically, Cali would have to pay %100 of it's own Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. Considering Cali's resources and coastal location, Cali has a LOT to lose from a potentially invading military...like from a right-wing, Cali-less US military. The US wouldn't give The California Republic any military equipment and the US would abandon it's Cali bases. Russia, China, and even Mexico would lick their chops. Heck, the United States of Trump could quickly turn around and conquer the Cal. Republic, make it a colony, deny it's citizens statehood rights and representation, and then exploit it's resources.

The Cal. Republic would also have to finance it's own embassies, diplomatic operations, intelligence forces, and other federal agencies. Free Trade agreements across Cali's present land boarders with the rest of the continental US would stop. All those things have a hidden cost.

Autonomy is great, but it's also a major logistical and financial responsibility. Cali(like Tx) sends a lot of money to Washington, but not hardly enough to replace the US military and the US's other federal resources. Cali would definitely need a US type military to protect it's valuable resources from the rest of the world. Or, make some diplomatic deals...which have their own hidden cost.

Something to think about and plan carefully.

displacedtexan

(15,696 posts)
73. CA currently gets back 78 cents for every fed tax dollar.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:27 PM
Jan 2017

Plus, the US of Trumpistan would have to pay rent on the military bases and... Hahahahaha...border patrol.

I'm signing the petition. I live in SF, and the Trumpian ICE fascists raided The Good Samaritan Center here yesterday, allegedly looking for one man, and they weren't even sure they had the right address.

All they ended up doing was terrorizing kindergartners, their teachers, and 20 new immigrant families who were attending ESL classes. GRRRRR!

onenote

(43,299 posts)
76. Try making the Federal Government pay rent.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:37 PM
Jan 2017

They aren't going to do so voluntarily and it will take a long time before that matter could be litigated out.

Out of 100,200,000 acres in California; 45,860,000 are currently OWNED by the federal government. If anything, California would find itself being sued by the Federal Government for expropriating that property.

displacedtexan

(15,696 posts)
86. The House has voted to ease the rule on returning fed lands to states and tribes.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:57 PM
Jan 2017

Even if Trump doesn't trust the states, the Repukes in congress really want to control the land in their states.

onenote

(43,299 posts)
89. Link? Returning land to states was part of repub platform
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:03 PM
Jan 2017

but I don't think any such legislation has been passed by either house. And even if repubs support returning land to states, they're not going to support returning it to a non-state.

displacedtexan

(15,696 posts)
129. Here's one. There are several sources via Google.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 09:17 PM
Jan 2017

From one of the articles about Trump not wanting states to be able to sell fed lands, but he wants them available for drilling.

The House of Representatives, although GOP-dominated, could still throw a wrench into Trump’s plans for federal lands. Last week, the House voted in favor of a new bill aimed at facilitating the transfer of federal lands to states, communities, and Native American tribes. The bill stipulates no transfer costs for the federal budget and was initiated by the Republicans last year.


http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/US-Energy-Industry-Eager-To-Start-Drilling-On-Federal-Land.html

Plus, CA is the fifth largest economy in the world. Finding allies and trade partners wouldn't be a problem.

I'm just curious to see who does and doesn't support this here in CA. I guess we'll see pretty soon.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
14. Even if for no other reason than to preserve a future for us.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:26 PM
Jan 2017

Even if Donald Trump had not become president and no one need vilify republicans or conservatives, if for no other reason than the fact that the political discourse in the United States has become hopelessly dysfunctional. We have become a marriage that, sad as it may be to say so, has reached the point of having genuinely irreconcilable differences.
I suggest California-Oregon-Washington-Hawaii, we can call our new country Pacifica.

What do you think?

brush

(54,588 posts)
23. See post #16. You added Hawaii to the mix. I don't know...
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:34 PM
Jan 2017

I'm not against it but taking away all the west coast and it's ports and fertile lands may start a war.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
15. Not only is it dumb, but the fact that the whole campaign is being
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:27 PM
Jan 2017

spearheaded by Russian or Russian-connected activists/operatives is so blatantly obvious that even the most willfully blind useful idiots on the left should pause and take notice...

But hey... The dudebro left went 0-4 in trusting Moscow in 2016, why should 2017 be any different?

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
20. Have you been paying any attention at all!!!
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:32 PM
Jan 2017

We can't even build high speed rail in this country because it's childishly simple for a small group billionaires to sabotage all progress at the top. We need to simplify Things.

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
43. Yes, actually...
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:59 PM
Jan 2017

We will keep ROLLING OUR EYES at you online as much as we feel like....


Also, for your links, we will reserve judgement for the PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA to decide what is RIGHT for THEM -- as that is THEIR RIGHT.

Meanwhile, California -- Our Eyes Are On YOU to Decide What Is Right for You! Either way, we have your back!

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
47. I especially liked how you immediately dismissed the evidence, then simply ignored it.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 01:18 PM
Jan 2017

I especially liked how you immediately dismissed the evidence, then simply ignored it; critical thought is certainly inconvenient to a passionate bias, regardless of your trivialization of smileys, immediately followed by your own use of them (no doubt, holding others to a higher standard we hold ourselves to is also convenient to a bias).

haele

(12,777 posts)
50. Are you in California?
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 01:24 PM
Jan 2017

Were you born here? Do you work here?

Have you experienced or looked at the various "California as a separate nation" movements that have gone on over the past 40 years?
Have you ever looked at who is behind all these groups?

Obviously not.

I was born in California from second and third generation Californians, have lots of family here all over the state, and currently live in San Diego - since 1985. I have a Bachelor's in Business, retired from the Navy here, have run a small side business here in the past, and am currently helping my stepdaughter run her small business, worked local Shipyards in the past, and currently still work in the public sector.

I know pretty near all the ways the Federal government are entwined in Californian economy.
Over the past thirty years, every single time this "Independent California" comes up, it's always backed by some rich MF'er who has had previously tried to get control over public lands near his or her house.

Either some group of business folk from Silicon Valley, or some naturalized foreign businessman who can't understand he can't buy whatever property he wants just because he's rich as could be done in the country he came from.

Independent California - it's a beautiful dream. But to become independent, it will take far more effort and time than these professional petitioners are willing to wait - because the people who start these movements really just want personal access to the public land and infrastructure. Most of these groups really don't care about the actual state of California or long term effects.

Ask any reputable economist. Because of the way the Federal government is set up, it would take decades for a state to break off - and that would be after both the Feds and the State agree to it and are willing to work together to make it happen.

Face it, if the U.S. becomes a temporary Trumpian third world hell hole, y'all need the Blue States to keep everyone propped up long enough to recover.

If the U.S. is going to split up, it needs to come from the Federal level. We are all in this together.

Haele

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
141. Thank you.
Sat Jan 28, 2017, 07:04 AM
Jan 2017

Plus, California would have no military and would be taken over within a month if not by the US, then Russia, China or Mexico.

haele

(12,777 posts)
19. Calexit is a Russian operation. The organizer is currently living in Russia.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:30 PM
Jan 2017

Divide and conquer is Putin's plan.
There's been a longing for "Cascadia" since the 70's when California started becoming the butt of jokes in the Midwest - we are disparagingly viewed as the La-La land Hollywood types, limousine liberal activists, the land of Fruits, Nuts and Flakes. Even though we have more "Christian" churches per person than most states, we have a strong hard-working rural presence in our population - farming, mining, and forestry are the backbone of most of our major exports, and there's a lot of manufacturing in this state (along with lots of racist red-necks), somehow, Californians just aren't "Real Americans" to the rest of the country.

I was born in California, stationed in California, and currently live here. There's absolutely no way we can currently sustain our 6th greatest economy in the world status if we succeed at this point in time; we have to make a real effort untangle ourselves from the federal funding much of our worker economy depends as a subsidy to help them live in California on before we can even start the process - and that can take years.

This is all propaganda - smoke and mirrors to further destabilize the U.S.. If California just up and left the U.S. in the economic state we are in right now - and they let us without any penalty, such as war or economic sanctions - we would become a third world country before the end of the year we did so.

Haele

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
34. So here is a logical question or two....
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:53 PM
Jan 2017

Why exactly would this "leader" of #Calexit not be Happy As Peaches with an America #Occupied By Trumpskin in the White House?

And it appears there are VARIOUS GROUPS involved in the #Calexit Movement -- this can all of the VARIOUS GROUPS be just generally accused of being "Russian Operatives"?

The attorney general’s office will give the ballot measure a title and summary, and Evans said he hopes to begin collecting signatures to get it on the ballot in the spring. Qualifying ballot measures typically requires significant resources to pay signature gatherers, and Yes California doesn’t have major financial backing. But Evans said 13,000 people have volunteered to collect signatures.

“This is real,” Evans said. “We treat it seriously.”

Various groups have made noise about California forming its own country in the wake of Trump’s election this month, most prominently Silicon Valley financier Shervin Pishevar. But similar proposals have dotted the state’s political landscape for years. Yes California has tried and failed previously, and Silicon Valley venture capitalist Tim Draper was not able to get a proposal to split California into six states onto the 2016 ballot.


http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-california-secession-calexit-htmlstory.html

politicat

(9,808 posts)
55. *Sigh* okay, let's go back to Destabilization 101.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 01:40 PM
Jan 2017

1. Russia has been economically fucked for 60 years. Under communism, they claimed industrial capacity they didn't have, and what there was of it got looted in the fall. They have all the markers of a failing state -- shortening life-spans, addictions rising, brain drain, religious and political authoritarianism, failing infrastructure, list goes on. They have not significantly added any manufacturing capacity in 30 years, and what wealth they once had or generated has been sucked out of the society and off-shored in very few hands.

2) John McCain is not wrong when he describes Russia as a gas station masquerading as a country. Petro is their major export and primary source of funds. With oil prices low and sanctions, they're economically tenuous. Their primary goal is to get oil back above $75 a barrel. War and chaos are good for that.

3) they know they can't make a direct military challenge and win. They've been supporting proxy wars and making relatively small incursions, but they don't have the personnel or wealth or production capacity to support a large scale war.

4) this is a classic example of the scam "let's you and him fight." It doesn't matter to the third party who wins in that situation, it just matters that the other two are fighting amongst themselves and ignoring everything around them, and the fight itself generates chaos that the third party can use for their own advantage. This is especially true of when we're talking an economically unstable, kleptocratic, authoritarian regime that's keeping itself together with baling wire and wheat paste.

5) we've already seen multiple examples of their effectiveness at destabilization. They spent a year or more prepping the ground with propaganda before they invaded Crimea. This is their playbook right now because it's cheap, hard to track, and profitable. We're not talking a huge conspiracy here -- it doesn't need to be. They're merely exploiting weaknesses in systems and seeing where it falls out, because the end result doesn't matter.

6) Break California or Cascadia from the rest of the US? That coast is then poorly defended, and the rest of the former country experiences a massive economic contraction. Think about what's based in California -- most of the entertainment industry, which is one of the US's major exports, and the tech industry, also major export, and the North American continent's only source of a Mediterranean climate. There's no way this ends well for anyone. California/Cascadia becomes much easier to physically invade, if that's the goal, and the rest of the former country has little incentive to help.

7) We have done this secession thing. It didn't work out well for the seceders. It rarely does. Name one successful separatist state.

8) even assuming that it's just one crank, the effects of a secession are still distraction, chaos, resentment and division.

haele

(12,777 posts)
33. Google is your friend... Louis J. Marinelli is the founder of "Yes California"
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:52 PM
Jan 2017

Yes California has been behind the movement "Calexit" for the past year and a half.
Louis J. Marinelli's residence is in...

Wait for it...

Yakenterinberg, Russia

He still goes over to Russia and teaches half years. He maintains an apartment in San Diego, which is where he lists his U.S. residence whenever he decides to run for political office or start petitions to get on the California ballot. People who live in that neighborhood - including one of my co-workers whom I just asked to say he's there maybe about five or six months during the winter - in fact, he's there right now.
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-calexit-leaders-lives-in-russia-20161216-htmlstory.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_J._Marinelli

Haele

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
27. Well what do you suggest as an alternative?
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:38 PM
Jan 2017

if the only alternative is to sit back and watch our country morph into a third world country I'm all for it.

haele

(12,777 posts)
46. Do you live here in California? Or are you just wanting to see Trump fail in the U.S.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 01:05 PM
Jan 2017

A good third of California's economy is tied up in the Federal government, through grants, contracts, programs, and through Federal organizations. Most of the critical workforce - the $11.00 to $25.00 an hour workers - can only live in California due to federal programs and subsides, either paid to the State, or paid directly to them.

To a man, every one of these people who are organizing separatist movements are wealthy enough they can either afford to go somewhere else and live in comfort off their businesses while the state struggles to keep it's workers sustained or they're waiting to use their wealth to buy up former Federal properties at fire sale discounts so they can create their own little walled off fiefdoms from formerly public lands.
Oh, they talk a good story. But when you follow the personalities behind Calexit, you always find yourself back to either wealthy people who have large tracts public lands next to their property, or new-money socialites and/or successful entrepreneurs from out of state who are professional "organizers" for a hobby.
Old-timers and people who work in the public sphere for a living in this state reject Calexit pretty much to a person. Heck, most people who work for a living think Calexit is stupidly short-sighted.

If we left now, or in 2019, or even in 2025, this state would become another third world country within two or three years.

Haele

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
30. Lastly....There are HUGE hurdles to reach here...
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:46 PM
Jan 2017

First, the #Calexit organization must receive upwards of 600K VALID registered voters only signatures.

Those signatures would need to be verified by California Secretary of State Office. Equally, the referendum petition signatures would have to defend against what would be a court challenge likely up to the California Supreme Court.

If all this fell in the favor of #Caliexit (and that is a big IF) then comes the Campaign. There is big money in California and there will be big money spend for and against #Caliexit. In the end, it is doubtful the referendum would successful in a Statewide Vote of the People....

However, the symbolism is huge.

Cheeto Trumpskin is destroying American Democracy and Unity, period. And regardless to if #Calexit ever gets off the ground beyond the Petition approval AT ALL -- the fact a petition has been approved for a State to gather signatures seeking to leave the Union - is in itself symbolic and says plenty about the State of Unrest in America with Trumpskin Occupying the White House.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
32. so what???
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:52 PM
Jan 2017

We could not have achieved independence in 1781 without help from the French who certainly weren't interested in freedom and democracy in helping us. Look at the big picture. In our current form, the United States has ceased to function as a country. Perhaps we are to big. But progress is not possible without a change in our national makeup.

Tikki

(14,589 posts)
115. One organizer, there are others...this has been going on for years..always follow the money..
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:44 PM
Jan 2017

and sponsors on anything like a petition you sign.


Tikki

Auggie

(31,347 posts)
31. Absurd and immature. If this makes the ballot I will vote against it ...
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:47 PM
Jan 2017

our efforts and money should be spent on flipping California's Republican congressional districts to Democratic.

AlexSFCA

(6,139 posts)
39. the worst idea
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 12:57 PM
Jan 2017

This is enormous waste of time. Trump has neary unlimited power now: CIA, NSA, FBI, Military, etc.
If he wants to destroy our state he will stop at nothing.

 

Throd 2.0

(62 posts)
48. My part of the state wants to secede from California.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 01:18 PM
Jan 2017

That will never happen either. This whole idea is a non-starter.

meadowlark5

(2,795 posts)
52. Since Trump's north korean twin wants to lob a nuke at the US
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 01:26 PM
Jan 2017

What would the state do about a military or missile defense? California is an economic powerhouse for the US but when it stands alone on issues of defense, what would they do?

E.A.B.

(12 posts)
53. This kind of nonsense empowers Trump.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 01:26 PM
Jan 2017

Yes, Trump in a week has demonstrated that he's able and willing to leave George W. Bush in the dust for the title of worst President ever.

But are we going to spend a year discussing whether we should wreck the country ourselves instead of fighting back against him? This will just turn attention away his antics as he'll be able to say, "Look at those unpatriotic Californians!"

We need to focus our energies on real fights and to be strategic instead of trying to figure out extravagant and self-destructive ways of venting our frustrations.

SpankMe

(3,010 posts)
57. My fantasy would be Ecotopia
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 01:43 PM
Jan 2017
https://www.amazon.com/Ecotopia-Ernest-Callenbach/dp/0553348477/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1485534497&sr=1-1&keywords=ecotopia

A novel form the '80s where California, Oregon and Washington secede and create a sustainable eco-state.

But, secession of Cali is so impossible and so not gonna happen, that I think it's a waste of time to pursue it and it makes us a bit of a laughing stock (just like we ridicule Texas for their secessionist wackos).

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
61. The last States that tried to secede
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 02:04 PM
Jan 2017

The last States that tried to secede were The Czech Republic and Slovakia and it went off successfully. They could not have fought the cival war in full view of the 21st century media. The people would have stopped it.

melm00se

(5,013 posts)
64. California is not a European state
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 02:41 PM
Jan 2017

but part of the United States which does not have a secession process built into the US Constitution but you knew that.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
69. You're not responding to my central point
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:17 PM
Jan 2017

Do you think the U.S. Civil War could have been fought in full view of modern media. Eventually political pressure would force Trump to back down

onenote

(43,299 posts)
77. The pressure to back down will be from the Federal government on California
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:40 PM
Jan 2017

not the other way around.

The federal government doesn't have to engage in a shooting war to cripple the California economy. It can simple impose travel bans and economic sanctions.
No tourism coming in. No produce going out.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
81. Actually
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:50 PM
Jan 2017

Some of the Battles had live audiences until they found out how gruesome War really is.

Wars since Vietnam have been broadcast live on American TV's.
Social media posts show horrific acts every day all around the world.

I think you are misgiven about what side the pressure will come from. Speaking of the Civil War, after the amount of Bloodshed and money it took to keep us a Union. Do you think the rest of America is just going to forget that and wish California well and goodbye?

haele

(12,777 posts)
88. No, doesn't need to be a shooting war. That's so last century.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:02 PM
Jan 2017

All they have to do is:
1) Remove all Federal installations and revoke U.S. citizenship.
After all, we're no longer part of the Federal compact, correct? Military, Ag., Interior, HHS - Labs, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, Disability, HUD, SNAP, WIC, Universities, Maritime facilities, Air traffic Control, Parks...

The Feds can decide that people who get federal subsidies now aren't entitled to them. If you're on SSI or SSDI, you can't get it if you're no longer a U.S. Citizen.

There goes at least 1/2 of the California economy.

2) Require us to lease any Federal project or facility that might need to stay in California that is also used by Californians. Lighthouses.

3) Require us to pay for any infrastructure that comes into California. Roads, rail ... energy, water...

4) Slap a tariff on any product out of California. Say, 20%, Trump and the Republicans love nice big round numbers.

And then the RepubliCons and their pet Media stooges will say - "Oh, look at those poor stupid Californians, with all those old people, families, and disabled people starving in the street while they try to get their act together. They thought they could just leave and keep getting tax money and services that other U.S. Citizens work hard to pay for."

Haele


haele

(12,777 posts)
80. Those were already autonomous states. Big difference from the states in the U.S.A.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:48 PM
Jan 2017

The Czech Republic, Slovakia, the various Slavic states, et all, were never "federalized" in the way the U.S. was.
For one, they have a majority population with unique cultures and languages. When they were part of a Federated States, they still retained their identity as a relatively homogeneous locally controlled community, with it's own managed local economy and infrastructure, as well as a separate language as their primary language. Most of the inhabitants of those states only learned the language of the Federal government as a second language - if they had to.
These were assimilated states, there was never a majority vote of the people to become part of the Soviet, or Yugoslavia - or Iraq.


Compare that to the states in the United States. The western United States began as sparsely populated territories bought or acquired via treaty, and settled through a majority population with the same cultural background and language of the primary Federal government.
While the indigenous populations had not been consulted over the settlements, they were basically so overwhelmed on a local level by the white settlers, there was not a chance to maintain a common governance that would be able to maintain enough sovereignty of culture and economics that they could potentially separate and not be affected by that separation.
So; California started out as a Spanish colony, even when it was Mexican Territory, any Mexican influence was completely overwhelmed and co-opted by the American settlers by the time California became a state. California, as all the other States, voted to become a state by a significant majority of the population. There is no "California Culture" that can uniquely identify people in California. More people still come to settle in California from all over than remain.
And if, for some reason, we just split from the United States without a major investment in time and planning, we will fall apart internally, as each region within California will struggle to take control of the direction of the state.

Our current strength as a State, the driver of our economy, is rooted in being part of the United States - from which most of our native population came from.

Now, if Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, U.S. Virgin Islands, or any of the other territories that we currently hold decide to become states, or decide to go independent, they have a much better chance of a successful, peaceful secession than even Hawaii or Alaska currently could - because even if they did toy with statehood, and they do have U.S. Federal investments located in their territories, they are a majority population of long-time natives with their own cultures, local governance, and language.

Haele

ghostsinthemachine

(3,569 posts)
62. Why the fuck not?
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 02:11 PM
Jan 2017

I am a NORCAL native and it bugs the shit out of me that a bunch of backwards rubes, thumping the Bible, are making policy which affects me and my state.

Let's seceed.. Renegotiate drilling and mineral rights agreements. Keep our water. Become the pot paradise every knows is coming. Become the renewable energy paradise we all can see happening right now . We would pay a reasonable amount for defense. (Oregon won't invade I don't think) and have a smaller, more representative govt. We have a lot of industry, industry that currently drives the US economy, imagine if those revenues were only used in CA?. As it is now, more CA money goes to other states, than stays here.

The River

(2,615 posts)
65. Also in NORCAL
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 02:57 PM
Jan 2017

and I think it's a bad idea. Are you also for the "State of Jefferson"?

I'm old and would probably not live long enough to see the results but I can just imagine.
Could California afford to cover Social Security payments?
U.S. Government retirees?
Military retirees and Veterans medical (VA)?

California needs to lead the resistance.
We are and will continue to be a good example to the rest of America
of what a State can be under good Democratic governance.

From a Joint Statement from California Legislative Leaders on Result of Presidential Election
Wednesday, November 09, 2016

"While Donald Trump may have won the presidency, he hasn’t changed our values. America is greater than any one man or party. We will not be dragged back into the past. We will lead the resistance to any effort that would shred our social fabric or our Constitution.

California was not a part of this nation when its history began, but we are clearly now the keeper of its future."

ghostsinthemachine

(3,569 posts)
70. Okay, I think
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:17 PM
Jan 2017

I'm one hundred percent against the Jefferson movement. But all of CA? Man that makes a lot of sense. screw. Alabama. Screw Iowa. Screw Floridà. Screw Ohio.

marlakay

(11,633 posts)
71. The hope is to get us busy on something that won't work
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:21 PM
Jan 2017

Fighting against each other both on this and other issues, too busy fighting to deal affectively with Trump and his followers.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
72. To my Original argument
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:23 PM
Jan 2017

Without pointing a finger at red state people or even Donald Trump. Our current political system is simple broken. We are not a single country any longer, we are two countries with irreconcilable differences.
If you insist that can't be done then tell me what olution you can propose to srestore a government that works for the people?

 

Throd 2.0

(62 posts)
74. Those same differences exist with California.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:29 PM
Jan 2017

Placerville and Berkeley might as well be on separate planets.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
75. Perhaps, but.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:36 PM
Jan 2017

I'm not arguing that we would be a homogenous entity. But as things stand we cannot even get high speed rail as it is child's play for a billionaire at the top to sabotage it. We are saddled with an electoral college and gerrymandering rules that have allowed a moneyed minority political party to overrule the will of the people and a senate which pro is a logarithmic increase in representation to a Montana voter over a California voter. These problems are set in stone.
We cannot move forward in our current form.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
78. They may Vote but there are a lot of others who will want a say.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:43 PM
Jan 2017

Too much blood and coin were spent to keep and make this Union, and it is all the more incepted that it is being foisted on America by a Russian(part time American) who seems to be totally ignoring our history and the sacrifices made by previous generations.
California may vote on it, but the rest of the country is not going to allow it.
Do you think Trump, the House, Senate and Judiciary want to be remembered as the people who let California secede?

Abraham Lincoln is one of our most Revered Presidents. Are we to let his and the countries struggles disintegrate because California did not get their way? News Flash, lots of us did not get our way.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
79. Just look at history.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:47 PM
Jan 2017

History is full of examples of things that only a few years earlier seamed impossible.

Remember the Chinese proverb: "he who insists a thing cannot be done should get out of the way of the one who is doing it".

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
85. Then you missed the point
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:56 PM
Jan 2017

We already had a secession movement and it tore the country apart. You think it is dysfunctional now, add greater in-fighting and trillions of dollars. It will be another bloodbath. Wither actually or politically.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
90. Not a valid comparison
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:03 PM
Jan 2017

the Civil War could not have been fought in full view of modern media. In the same way the British thought that they could crush Indian independence in the 20th century using 19th century methods. The Soviet Union dissolved without firing a shot. I believe that a consensus alone would be sufficient for California secession.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
94. Soviet Union
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:13 PM
Jan 2017

Was a forced Union that was held together by many shots fired over many years. Hungary anybody?
Britain losing India is not Britain losing Cornwall. I think the British may have also been busy in their back yard with other problems.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
97. Consensus
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:25 PM
Jan 2017

It wasn't until 1991 that a consensus existed for dissolution. We think of the soviet union as having been a nation of Soljinitzens desperately struggling to undo the Soviet Unionut the truth is that the average person just wanted to get along and not be bothered. The dissent had to reach a critical mass.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
101. How did they get there
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:30 PM
Jan 2017

It was not political crisis. It was economic crisis. Saint Ronny took the Russian on a shopping trip and bankrupted them before he bankrupted us. No money for bread, and no money for weapons. So when people protested food shortages, the Commissars had no one and nothing to shoot them with.

It is a beautiful story with such a happy ending.
Remember folks "Kill a Commie for Mommy today".

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
113. That is right
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:42 PM
Jan 2017

It is only politics. Not economic, not threat of harm.
Decades? We just had a Democratic President for 8 yrs. It has been 1 week of Trump. Politics can be overcome.
We survived 8 yrs of Bushie 2. 4 of Bushie 1, and 8 of Saint Ronnie.

Not to mention Herbert Hoover, Calvin Coolidge, Ford, Nixon.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
117. This is different.
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:49 PM
Jan 2017

Our democracy has truly been overthrown at this point. Were it not for the electoral college, gerrymandering and the fact that the senate is weighted by state rather than population progressives would control the government top to bottom.
"When a government becomes destructive to these ends it is the duty of the people to abolish it"

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
87. It is an interesting academic excersize,
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 03:59 PM
Jan 2017

but there is no legal way to leave the union once joined. Not even for Texas. So say the legal professionals.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
92. So what?
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:11 PM
Jan 2017

We could not have gained our independence without help from France. France hadn't its own reasons for helping that had nothing to do with freedom or democracy, but we used their help to achieve them.

Pathwalker

(6,600 posts)
93. And who thinks Trump won't send in the troops to stop it?
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:12 PM
Jan 2017

This has Civil War Two screaming all over it, never mind all the military and naval bases and military construction companies that will disappear. Does anyone think that Trump will not react violently to this?

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
95. Karen does not
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:16 PM
Jan 2017

She thinks we will all wave goodbye and good luck to Cali.

I also think she may have a spare rubber band and two extra buttons lying around.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
96. See Quabec
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:16 PM
Jan 2017

The only reason Quabec failed to gain its independence was that the vote fell short of approving it. No one even considered the possibility that Canada would resort to its military to restore its union. This isn't the 19th century. If a consensus of Californians wanted independence there will be a way.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
98. Facts not in evidence
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:25 PM
Jan 2017

You have no idea what the Canadian Gov't nor it's people would have done if the vote was approved.

I assume you mean Quebec?
Unless Quabec was trying to secede and I am not familiar with that State, Province, country.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
100. Forgive my spelling
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:29 PM
Jan 2017

Come on!!! You aseriously believe the Canadian government would have sent in the tanks in full view of world opinion to put down the quabequois.

Pathwalker

(6,600 posts)
110. Do you seriously believe Trump wouldn't?
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:37 PM
Jan 2017

There is a huuuge amount of military industrial complex all through that state, and he will do anything to "protect" it for America. This is America, we're nowhere nearly as civilized as Canada, and Republicans love war more than anything else. Seriously.

Pathwalker

(6,600 posts)
116. That doesn't answer my question. Yould just be one of many
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:45 PM
Jan 2017

thousand casualties, including the former UNITED States. It is my honest belief that this would start a Civil War.

TranssexualKaren

(364 posts)
107. So did the French
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 04:35 PM
Jan 2017

The French, acting from their own cynical motives helped our revolution yet it sowed the seeds of their own destruction.

brush

(54,588 posts)
132. Just thought of something. Calexit can be used as a bargaining chip to get the electoral college ...
Fri Jan 27, 2017, 09:57 PM
Jan 2017

fixed of ditched altogether.

That way California's votes will have the weight they should have in presidential elections.

brush

(54,588 posts)
140. California should have more EC votes because of its 38m people.
Sat Jan 28, 2017, 05:55 AM
Jan 2017

Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2017, 06:40 AM - Edit history (1)

Wyoming only has some 600k people so proportionately each of its votes are worth 3 times as much as California's.

If votes were weighted appropriatedly we wouldn't have the orange bumbler in the White House who has in his first week in office been humiliated by both the Mexican president and British PM.

LompocDem

(148 posts)
139. This is the only reason...
Sat Jan 28, 2017, 02:22 AM
Jan 2017

..right now that I would support this. Remembering all the negative repercussions we Dems say that will, and probably should happen when a red state suggests secession applies to us Californians also. Loss of DOD contracts alone, since we would be a foreign nation, would devastate San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco and even my hometown of Santa Barbara where much of this countries primary military defensive and offensive capabilities are created and developed not to mention the Vandenberg Airforce Base Space Command and launch site. That base and the federal corrections facility that the movie 'Falcon and the Snowman' was based on is a major income source for where I live in Lompoc Ca. I'm reminded of many posts talking of cutting off your nose to spite your face in those threads. I say, No Calexit but use our economic and progressive force to direct this country back on track.

Against the MIC? I'm with you. I was 8 when Dwight Eisenhower warned this country about the danger of the MIC driving our foreign policy and my dad who fought in WW2 and Korea said that he was the last honorable Republican President. President Eisenhower said...

Before and during the Second World War, American industries had successfully converted to defense production as the crisis demanded, but out of the war, what Eisenhower called a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions emerged. This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience Eisenhower warned, [while] we recognize the imperative need for this development.we must not fail to comprehend its grave implicationswe must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence…The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. Eisenhower cautioned that the federal government’s collaboration with an alliance of military and industrial leaders, though necessary, was vulnerable to abuse of power. Ike then counseled American citizens to be vigilant in monitoring the military-industrial complex. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

It's sad to have to look back more than 50 years and wonder why that message was lost. It's pure greed IMO.

S_B_Jackson

(906 posts)
137. And what about the counties which have always been interested in the state of Jefferson?
Sat Jan 28, 2017, 01:06 AM
Jan 2017

What if they do not wish to join the Calexit?

Tatiana

(14,167 posts)
138. California will stay and fight for our country, as will New York and Illinois.
Sat Jan 28, 2017, 01:15 AM
Jan 2017

This is nothing but Russian psyops.

We cannot lose a state with the 6th largest economy in the world -- larger than the entire country of Mexico.

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