(CA) Legislature approves high-speed rail spending

[alp227]

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

A divided state Senate approved billions of dollars in funding to start construction on California's ambitious high speed rail line Friday, handing the controversial project $7.9 billion in state and federal money for the first 130-miles of track and a series of local transit upgrades.

The funding measure, which was easily approved in the Assembly Thursday, will now head to Gov. Jerry Brown, who pushed lawmakers to approve it. In all, the state Legislature this week authorized the issuance of $4.6 billion in state bond funds -about half of the $9.9 billion approved by voters in 2008 -and opened the door for California to obtain $3.3 billion in federal grants, for a total of $7.9 billion in spending.

It was a key vote: Federal transportation officials had warned that if they money was not made available this summer, they would yank the $3.4 billion in stimulus funds and give it to other states.

And it was as tough win for Democratic leaders, who weren't sure by midday if they had the votes to pass the measure. Democrats refused to support the plan, giving supporters the bare minimum of 21 votes. One of those lawmakers, Sen. Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, spoke for 15 minutes about the project's strengths and weaknesses before ultimately saying he could not support the details being weighed Friday.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Legislature-approves-high-speed-rail-spending-3689191.php

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Investing in infrastructure no doubt creates jobs and stimulates the economy. However, a recent poll found that 20% of CA voters would oppose the governor's tax plan if HSR funding were approved.

Brown, in response to concerns from the state legislative analyst, has scaled back funding.

[lunatica]

1. This is great news!

[jaysunb]

2. +1 n/t

[Swede Atlanta]

3. I applaud the decision but.......

hope that the cost to taxpayers really does pay off.

I am a firm believer in high-speed rail, having used it extensively in Europe and Japan. I am not so convinced that the American public is ready to embrace it and help it thrive and grow.

I'm not saying it can't happen but I am skeptical that our love affair with the automobile and airplane have placed the idea of traveling by train beyond the imagination of most Americans.

I would love to see this flourish where it makes sense - the northeast corridor, heavily-traveled routes in Florida and California, Detroit-Chicago-Milwaukee-Minneapolis, possibly Vancouver - Seattle - Portland, etc.

[lunatica]

5. San Diego to San Francisco is also heavily traveled

Just as one example there are nine University of California locations in that span which means hundreds of thousands of students going home more often because they can afford it.

In my job at UC Berkeley I reimburse travel expenses. I do hundreds of reimbursements for in state travel every month. The time it would take to travel each way would probably be the same as it does to fly if you count the time as starting when you leave you house and when you return to it. Everyone has to be at the airports at least an hour before they even get on the airplane going both ways.

It would be cheaper too.

[slackmaster]

8. The spur between Los Angeles and San Diego is no longer detailed in the master plan

It's on the map labelled "Future HSR," but there is no specific plan to build it or to finance it.

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/assets/0/152/431/72e92f77-014b-45a0-ad04-6cfd6d79c778.pdf

ETA I live in San Diego and think it would be just swell to be able to get to the Bay Area quickly by train, but in 2029, when the link between Los Angeles and San Francisco is supposed to be running, I'll turn 71 years old. As a taxpayer I'll be helping pay off the bonds for this for the rest of my life, with no hope of having access to the system available in my city.

[wordpix]

10. however, you're using the hwy system right now that someone else paid into & never used

so somehow you're karma will "even out"

[slackmaster]

15. I use the FEDERAL highway system every day. It became useful to a lot of people within the first...

...few years of its development.

Not only do I drive on it daily, much of the food and other things I need are delivered on it. I don't mind paying for that.

You're trying to compare it to a passenger-only rail system that will be of NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER to most people in California for decades, including everyone who lives in my city.

NO BENEFIT! No reduction in freeway traffic, no improved air quality, NOTHING AT ALL!

It's lunacy.

A national high-speed rail system is a great idea. Because EVERYONE would benefit then EVERYONE should pay for it! It should be a FEDERAL undertaking, not state by state.

[primavera]

25. It should

But in this country, with all of the resentment of "big government" spending, can you imagine for even a nanosecond that this country would go for it? You gotta start somewhere; maybe California's example will inspire other states. One can hope.

[happerbolic]

14. All San Diego needs...

... is a link of rail transport along the 15 to take care of a complete rail loop around the county. Just 1 small important piece of the circuit is direly missing. Northern to central inland route.

[XemaSab]

18. Are you sure this would be cheaper than flying?

Where did you find the numbers for this?

[kemah]

36. Yes, cheaper.

Downtown London to downtown Paris is cheaper by train then by flying.
I have caught the train at the Waterloo Station in London then arrived Gare de Nord in Paris.
If I had taken the plane, I would have first taken a cab or subway to the outskirts of London, Heathrow, then gone through airport security, to arrive at Charles De Gaulle, at the outskirts of Paris, go through security and baggage retrieval, then have to catch a cab or the subway to downtown Paris.
Time wise and money wise cheaper to take the train.

[Lars77]

4. Public investment in infrastructure is expensive but crucial

It's just like the roads. Once it's built, companies will start using them. The problem with the western US though, is that there is very little public transportation to link up with the high speed rail. In Europe and Asia you leave the train station to board a bus, subway or tram. In California you might have to go straight for the rental car desk, regretting you left your car at the other station.

Why there isn't high speed rail from New England to DC however, is beyond me. That should have been built in the sixties, maybe all the way down to Miami.


In France you can go from Paris to Marseille in 3 hours doing an average speed of 163 mph, including all the stops in between.

[wordpix]

11. there is the Acela if you want to call it high speed

It is very expensive to ride, though

[Lars77]

22. It's difficult to get used to paying a lot for a train ride.

I've never seen the Acela before actually, that's interesting. But here in Europe, it's often cheaper to fly than use the high speed train of Deutche Bahn or the French TGV. This something to do with the extreme low fair airlines that offers shitty service out of tiny regional airports though.

But the advantages of trains is that they take you right to the city centers, so you save the time going to the airports, for which you have to be 2 hours early. You get harassed by security staff and you cant bring shampoo and you get ripped off if your baggage weighs half a kilo more. Also in the airplane you can't really move around.

Trains are just better most of the time unless you are travelling huge distances over here.

[FarCenter]

27. In the US, most air travelers do not begin or end their trip in city centers

Most would begin in a suburb and drive to an airport which is also in a suburb. This is usually easier than driving to the city center.

Business trips would typically end in a suburban office park along an interstate, often on one of the "ring" interstates surrounding a city. Only certain industries, such as banking, insurance, and government would be in the city center. Even then, the operations units of a bank are often not in the city center, e.g. data centers, call centers, adminstrative functions, records processing, IT development.

Leisure trips would also usually end in either suburbia or in a vacation spot. For example, Disney World is not in Orlando.

[Big_Mike]

38. Population density is the key

In the northeast, there is a dense enough populace to support this. Even parts of the upper mid-west would work.

In the west, there is simply not enough populace to make HSR practicable. Look to the areas that have HSR - Japan, China, Northern Europe. In Germany, for example, you have 91.5 million people in an area the size of Montana. The only region with comparable density is basically the northeast.

California has a population density of around 244 people per square mile, with the vast majority being centered on the Bay Area and the LA basin. This is three times the national average of 88/ppsm. Even so, it is still less than 1/3 that of Germany, and roughly equivalent to the entire population of England.

Let us please get this going back east and forget about the west. It is a boondoggle that will only require massive funding support due to low ridership levels.

[slackmaster]

6. This will add to the state's debt load for decades. First segment won't start carrying passengers...

...until 2022 according to the current plan, and that runs only from the San Fernando Valley to Merced. Not one cent in fares will be collected until then at the earliest. The link from Los Angeles to San Francisco, 2029 and tens of billions of additional dollars.

I like trains and support public transportation too, but this is the wrong project at the wrong time.

The first header in the Executive Summary of the latest business plan says "Better. Faster. Cheaper." Anyone who has ever worked on a real project knows that you can have any two of those but usually not all three at the same time.

I don't like being a party pooper, but the finances of this plan just don't make any sense.

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/assets/0/152/431/72e92f77-014b-45a0-ad04-6cfd6d79c778.pdf

[Kablooie]

23. It's going to sit empty when this stretch is finished.

I hope they know that rural farmers are the only people who will have access to this super fast train of the future.

[Le Taz Hot]

28. There are almost a million people

in Fresno County alone. The first leg of high-speed rail will run through , Kern, Tulare, Fresno, Madera, and Merced Counties and be accessible to those in Kings and Mariposa Counties as well. Here are the populations of each:


Kern: 840,000
Tulare: 448,000
Fresno: 954,000
Madera: 154,000
Merced: 258,000
Kings: 156,000
Mariposa: 18,000

Total: 2,278,000

That's a lot of "rural farmers."

[Big_Mike]

39. And most of those residents are in agriculture, or support the Ag businesses

How many of them will realistically travel on this system? Particularly when the real ticket prices come out?

Not very damn many!

[Le Taz Hot]

43. Actually, agricultural jobs only make up about

17% of the jobs the Central San Joaquin Valley so your claim that "most of the residents are in agriculture" is woefully inaccurate.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_mj3rGgV6tEC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=agricultural+vs.+non-agricultural+jobs+in+the+san+joaquin+valley&source=bl&ots=UQY9E5a73v&sig=8bRp6VKJO6ORfhX2ze9OaBxflwg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hx_6T7zyLMad2QXS3oS_Bg&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=agricultural%20vs.%20non-agricultural%20jobs%20in%20the%20san%20joaquin%20valley&f=false


As to how many people will purchase tickets when this leg is finished, I have no idea and neither do you. I do know that we DESPERATELY need the jobs here as we have some of the highest unemployment in the state. The more people placed in the "employed" column the less we'll have to rely on state and federal services. Besides, I can't remember when our tax dollars were actually spent on projects here as opposed to being regularly funneled out of the area for the benefit of L.A., S.F. or S.D.

[Big_Mike]

44. You are correct about the percentage in directly in the Ag business,

but I also grouped in those that support the Ag business.

And there is no doubt at all that jobs are desperately needed in the region. My relatives there are in that boat as well. I work in the rail industry, and our company would benefit from this.

That does not mean this project should go forward. I do not believe that any of the projections regarding cost, ridership, and benefits are anywhere close to reality. This project has been politicized from the national level on downwards. Ever since 1996 when the initial route was promised as a political favor, not one that best suited the traveling public. There is a good story about this in today's LA Times on the front page [link:http://www.latimes.com|.

[Psephos]

7. California is broke and future funding to complete this is far from certain.

Selling bonds is easy.

Paying bonds back is not.

65 billion dollars is a lot of money for a project that will require ongoing subsidies in a state that already can't balance its budget.

[IndyJones]

42. And they are seizing farmland and homes from people to build. I'm far from happy that Brown is

willing to cut healthcare services to the poor and cut my kids' school year by three weeks but he's willing to put us in this kind of debt right now. Great project, wrong time.

My prediction is that this will put the nail in the coffin of Brown's proposed tax increases.

[newthinking]

9. I understand the concerns, but imagine if the expensive highways system was never built?

That highway system was the best investment we have ever made. It would never have gotten built in this environment and we would be in even worse shape than we are now.

[quakerboy]

17. I agree with your concept

The high speed rail systems of our country need to start to exist.

That said, my understanding from some earlier posts here on DU is that the rail plan that they compromised to bring into being is not truly high speed rail, but rather an amalgam using some existing rails and things that will slow and inhibit the process, and thus is likely to end up being an expensive disappointment. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[newthinking]

19. Where do you see that?

In the article at least it says "up to" 220 mph. I have ridden in high speed rail in europe and they almost never hit the advertised speeds. But if it goes 120-150mph I would consider that a "leap" or "start"? That would be double what current passenger trains do (from my experience) here?

How fast have you been reading it is expected to go?

[quakerboy]

21. Memory

I recalled in a previous discussion of the issue that several people seemed discontent with the compromise that they had come to some months ago.

As best I can recall, the compromise involved using regular rail for part of the route to reduce the cost of the project. Again, going by memory, this would reduce the speeds to that of regular commuter trains for many connections.

As I say, perhaps my memory is faulty, or the information was faulty. But I do recall reading this here on DU some time back.

It is mentioned in the criticism section of the Wikipedia page. But that info comes from something called the "reason foundation" which sounds a lot like something the RW would come up with, and causes me some skepticism.

[IamK]

12. I think there is a stop near the giant ball of rubber bands? n/t

[slackmaster]

16. You will be able to go from the valley to Merced and take a cab to the zoo and see Sparky the alpaca

[itsrobert]

13. The SLOWEST high speed rail to NOWHERE

Big waste of money. They should use the money to expand mass transit in the cities.

[SunSeeker]

20. The Repukes in CA have done everything they could to stop this.

I am so glad it got through. It will connect the two major population centers of the state, L.A. and S.F./Sacramento.

It will provide badly needed jobs in the short term and badly needed infrastructure in the long term.

Even if it takes 10 years, it's worth it.

[Kablooie]

24. But this first stretch will only connect farmers to farmers.

[slackmaster]

26. It could be beneficial to one dating site I know of...

http://www.farmersonly.com/

[Kablooie]

29. Those farmers have to be pretty hot to need the bullet train to connect.

[SunSeeker]

34. Enough with the ring wing hyperbole.

First, places like Fresno do not consist "only" of farmers. There are a lot of blue collar folks who could greatly use the jobs now and the transportation in the future.

[slackmaster]

35. Enough with dismissing any and all criticism of the project as right-wing whatever

I suggest reading the plan documents. I spent a couple of hours doing that Friday and Saturday, and have concluded that the justification is at best based on a lot of very dubious assumptions and projections, and includes unconventional cost justifications that are not on either side of the actual ledger for construction and maintenance, such as the value of passengers' time.

[SunSeeker]

37. "Farmer to Farmer" is not an honest criticism--hence its right wing patina.

I am sure this project is not perfect and will have its problems. A lot of compromises were made to get it through. But like the ACA, it is a starting point and an opportunity that can't be missed. If you have constructive criticisms, i.e. suggestions to improve the project, by all means let's hear them. And, if you are a CA resident like I am who is actually affected by this, please let your CA representatives know.

[slackmaster]

45. Why must it be done NOW? What opportunity would be "missed" if the project was shelved until...

...a time, hopefully in the not-too-distant future, when the state has more money coming in?

I don't have any kids in school, but I am appalled at the idea of spending money on a rail project that won't take a single passenger for at least 10 years. Our schools are badly underfunded NOW.

If you have constructive criticisms, i.e. suggestions to improve the project, by all means let's hear them.

Yes, come up with a more realistic, more believable plan and do it later.

The farmer-to-farmer criticism is obviously hyperbolic, but who actually would use it? Will the fares be low enough that a student who lives in the San Fernando Valley and goes to school in Merced or vice-versa or somewhere in between the two would actually opt to live at the parents' house commute to school by train rather than live on campus or in town and get the full college experience? How may people have jobs at one end of that segment and live at the other? The whole plan looks like smoke and mirrors.

[SunSeeker]

46. Because interest rates, labor & material costs are low NOW.

There's tons of out of work construction workers, especially in the depressed central valley, who need a job NOW. And if we don't go foward with it NOW, we lose the billions in federal funding.

As to who will use it, try anyone you see on the 5 or 99 right now. When was the last time you drove those highways? I just drove from L.A. to Sacramento in June. I would love to take a train rather than brutalize myself and my car in the 105 degree heat for 8 hours. Also, a lot of the folks in the central valley don't even own cars--they're too poor.

If you build it, they will come. The same kinds of criticisms were leveled at the metrolines in L.A., but once people figured out where they were, they quickly filled up and are now a success. The same folks who use the metrolines would use HSL, and then some (i.e. folks like me).

[musiclawyer]

30. Farmers to farmers ?

For thè first segment .....That's just a blindly ignorant statement. There are millions of people living in the northern half of LA county and millions living in metro Fresno and the valley cities alike. UC merced, Fresno state, cal state northridge will all be right along the first segment. If they could not start thè first section in downtown LA or SF this is probably the segment that will get the most people to use it. Fresno is a huge city with no "affordable" air link to thè south land. I'm glad this started. It should have started in thè 70's if we had politicians who cared about the future.

[musiclawyer]

31. Bottom line

If you are against the 99% and giving future generations opportunities and options that you wish you had, you are against this project. There is no walking it back.

[Kolesar]

32. The RW specializes in nasty memes like that...eom

[SunSeeker]

33. Good point about Fresno.

This will be massively beneficial to landlocked and depressed Fresno. Both now in terms of jobs and in the future to connect it to LA and SF. And this line has to start somewhere. It makes perfect sense to start it in a rural area so that any construction issues with the line can be worked out and the process streamlined before they hit the big population centers so as to minimize disruption.

[crimson77]

40. They are students, they wont be able to afford it.

[crimson77]

41. Big Dig part 2

I live in a suburb of Boston and the Big Dig was the biggest waste of money. This project will 100% not come in on time or on budget. These projects never do, that's why they have a term up here amongst the politically connected types "don't kill the job".

[slackmaster]

47. It's almost impossible to kill something like that once it's started

No matter how far over budget or behind schedule, and people like me will be paying for it for the rest of our lives.