Confederate Memorial at UNC Chapel Hill Vandalized
Source: Time
The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill’s memorial to Confederate soldiers was vandalized this weekend with the words “murderer” and “black lives matter.”
The statue of a soldier, which was erected in 1913 and commemorates the more than 300 UNC students who died in the Civil War, is a source of frequent controversy on campus. The soldier’s statue is nicknamed “Silent Sam” because the soldier doesn’t carry a cartridge box and is unable to fire his gun.
The graffiti on the statue elicited an ambivalent reaction among many, the local ABC affiliate reports, in a year marked by police shootings of unarmed black men and a new debate about the South’s Confederate history and the flag’s symbolism.
“As an African-American woman, who is a student here, that statue is the very statue that pretty much says I don’t belong here, that I shouldn’t be here,” said UNC student Kirsten Adams.
Read more: http://time.com/3946384/confederate-memorial-unc-chapel-hill-vandalized/
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heaven05
(18,124 posts)
couldn't have happened to a nicer...statue
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)This piece of clay and stone is important - for whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat reason?
Whyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
razorman
(1,644 posts)happen at some point, with the way things are going. Protests are fine. Vandalization and violence are not.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)MLK wasn't a traitor.
In spite of AMERICA treating him like a foreign enemy - he was born and died in the USA. He never fought for a COUNTRY that killed American Soldiers on the battlefield.
And don't worry about an MLK statue - when it's white folks with a bone to pick -
They use bullets, ropes, tar, feather, knives (to castrate black men and tear black women's babies from their wombs like they did down in rosewood) bombs and most recently - Guns.
Get the smelling salts - this is America now.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)whoop!!!! There it is!
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Dr. King, a man to be revered for his civil rights advocacy using methods of peace and non violence and an advocate of the violent imposition of slavery upon others? How can you even compare? What is one to revere the confederate for? Tell me, please.
Then, let me ask you this-who do you suppose the rich plantation owners of the south would have exploited if they hadn't drawn their labor resource from the continent of Africa? The average southerner did not even own slaves, yet decades later, their descendents revere all things confederate never stopping to think or be angry about how their ancestors were exploited.
Yeah, make those comparisons, defend all things confederate, see if you can make a living off it. I don't think it's selling well these days, but go right on ahead.
And you know what? As far a vandalizing of Dr. King statues, we've been there before too.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)maybe they could replace it with a statue of a dead or dying confederate soldier.
cstanleytech
(26,291 posts)might have been a better choice.
candelista
(1,986 posts)How Many Soldiers Died During the Civil War?
Confederate Battle Deaths 94,000
Disease Deaths 164,000
Total Deaths 258,000
http://www.civilwar.org/education/pdfs/civil-war-curriculum-stats.pdf
WhoWoodaKnew
(847 posts)
redgreenandblue
(2,088 posts)... it is a war they think they were at the receiving end of.
Warpy
(111,256 posts)He was famous for raising his rifle and firing every time a virgin (of either sex) walked past.
Some people got no respect for campus tradition.
I should point out that the statue is of an ordinary conscript, someone who had little say in whether or not he got put into a uniform, handed a gun, and told to shoot at other conscripts. If it glorified some plantation owner or political leader, I could see more reasons to object.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)But she had to be a virgin in both body and soul (i.e never had an unclean thought). Such 21 year old Virgins are hard to find, thus why we can no unicorns in captivity.
24601
(3,962 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:42 PM - Edit history (1)
Unless he is in a coma since puberty, he has had an unclean thought some time before his 21st birthday.
Remember the test is a Virgin in both body AND mind, thus any unclean thought makes a person no longer a Virgin in mind. As a male I can safety say that is impossible for males, a woman walks by them unclean thoughts enter their brains. Not being female I have to assume it may be possible for a female but the failure to capture a unicorn seems to indicate teen age women have unclean thoughts and thus no longer virgins in their thoughts and mind.
Yeah, that'll help the cause.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)No more and no less than it will hurt the cause.
RobinA
(9,893 posts)that this sort of thing hurts the cause. It feeds the accusation of overreaching, which engages the attention of people who would otherwise be agnostic.
Igel
(35,303 posts)"[The statue] represents hate, represents slavery, represents the division between blacks and whites..."
If that's what it really represents, I propose the following test.
Pull together a rural Chinese villager, a N. Indian Brahmin priest, and Russian miner, and a French cheesemaker.
Put them in a room with the question, in their native language, "This statue represents something. What is that something?"
Give them no background, no history lesson, no "consciousness raising". If the statue is doing the representing, if the statue has inherent meaning, if the very metal and shape of the metal is screaming out hate, slavery, racial division, then all of them should be able to say what that meaning is.
If not, then what it "represents" lies elsewhere, not in the metal and its shape.
People play this game with language. We present opinions as objective reality. "It's interesting that" = "I think it's interesting that." Many assertions about reality require a perceiver, someone who forms perceptions and evaluations, and for explicitness should be prefaced with "I think that ..." or "I conclude that...." (Other's are best prefaced with "I observe that...." It's far easier to agree on observations, which is why we use them as the basis for science.)
So with "[The statue] represents hate, represents slavery, represents the division between blacks and whites." It represents nothing. It's an abdication of responsibility for one's perceptions, an attempt to shut down debate because it's a debate that would show how despotic and peremptory we actually are, and a debate we might lose. So we phrase things as though they were baldfaced objective assertions.
On edit, that assertion--for it is an assertion of opinion and not of fact--has to be understood to read, "I think the statue represents ...." That moves the narrative from imposed to negotiated, from oppression to cooperation.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)seriously, all it would accomplish is that such things require being known from their cultural context.
You could do the same test on the Nazi flag, the SS symbol, the KKK cross, etc.
cstanleytech
(26,291 posts)give to them and what something means to one person might mean something else completely different to another person.
Take the "nazi" swastika for example.
In Germany and alot of the western world it symbolizes what was the worst of humanity during World War 2 but it dates back thousands of years and its even in use today by certain religions in other parts of the world and there it symbolizes other things like in Hinduism its considered a charm to attract good luck and repel evil.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)But a flag with it on it, red white and blue in the designs used by segregationists in imitation of some battleflags of the CS navy and a couple of confederate armies is a symbol of racism and white supremacy. Just like a red flag with a white circle and black swastika is a symbol of hatred, aggression, aryan supremacy and fascism.
Psephos
(8,032 posts)
mnhtnbb
(31,388 posts)for at least the 15 years we've lived here. I'm really quite surprised it has never been taken down
since Chapel Hill--the town--has been quite progressive--and of course, there has never
been a shortage of supporters to remove the statue from the campus itself. My guess is that
the Board of Governors is where the foot dragging is, and now, it's controlled by Republicans--and
not very nice ones, either: teabagger types that want more Ayn Rand taught and less African American
History (which, of course, is one of the departments which got in a heap of trouble with the NCAA for
offering bogus classes to athletes).
AwareOne
(404 posts)this and kick them out of school if they are students there. That would be a great gift to their parents and a nice little life lesson to learn. Your hurt feelings are not an excuse to commit a crime against other peoples property.
Darb
(2,807 posts)Maybe we should just lynch them.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)They should be prosecuted and pay for damages.
Darb
(2,807 posts)The post I replied to suggested kicking them out of school, which would have a profound effect on their lives, and more importantly, was over the top authoritarian bullshit.
Get it?
What was it, some paint on a statue? Holy shit, let's freak the fuck out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)is no excuse to hang, burn, castrate POC, burn down churches or shoot unarmed people worshiping in one of those churches. Confederate hate symbols cause a lot of hurt feeling, evidently you can't understand that. Nothing surprising, there's a lot of selective outrage directed against people reacting to racist hate symbols. Tear them all down, burn all the flags and .........well to me that would be a grand start. And the more BREE's we have, the better off we'll ALL be. Some people just don't understand that even though they may be of the privileged class, the racist hate depicted by these 'monuments" and flags to "southern pride", "heritage", "courage" has made all americans victims. Some people can't help knowing and understanding that fact and the sad fact is others in the 21st century, still have to learn that truth. Sad indeed.
Duppers
(28,120 posts)But if not...bye.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Down on Jubilee Street ...
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)But this might be a good time for UNC to ask what it is about that statute that might be making a lot of people very angry and uncomfortable.
Judi Lynn
(160,527 posts)of the Confederacy, the grotesque theft of human beings from their only home, families, acquaintances, way of life, language, and, should they survive the treacherous passage, the brutal force into unpaid, unmerciful labor for others' benefit, life under threat every day after, total lack of respect, treated like trash, would believe the Confederacy itself was the vandalism of the human race itself.
Yammering about vandalism of someone's "property" only reveals the astounding shallowness of anyone concerned about the acts against the memorial to ultimate evil and betrayal of human beings.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)One of America's - and only America's true heroes -
Is beneath us.
Duppers
(28,120 posts)And threads like this increase my ignore list. Makes you wonder why some posters bother reading DU since their sympathies seem to lie elsewhere.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)that supplied the slave markets of the West Indies and South America until the 1860s. When will you call for the vandalism of the statues and memorials to the upright and brave Yankee traders and noble seaman?
Judi Lynn
(160,527 posts)You do realize how helpless you sound, don't you?
Who on earth would support OTHER slavers? No Democrats I know.
Judi Lynn
(160,527 posts)You do realize how helpless you sound, don't you?
Who on earth would support OTHER slavers? No Democrats I know.
Judi Lynn
(160,527 posts)You do realize how helpless you sound, don't you?
Who on earth would support OTHER slavers? No Democrats I know.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)Until you acknowledge the horror that the merchants of the slave trade perpetuated and demand that honor requires the same treatment of their memorials then maybe the stench of hypocrisy around you will fade .
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Leontius
(2,270 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)the slave traders were evil people typical of the american capitalist with NO conscience, people who tear down statues and burn flags that revere the "cargo" of those slave ships are my heroes. You have it backwards or are trying to divert attention away from hate into some alley of irrelevance. Won't work, have a good one.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)I personally don't. I have been to memorials in Germany. I think without a doubt the Germans were wrong in WW2, but I do not hold that against a common soldier. Same as you may disagree with Iraq, I see nothing wrong with being saddened when any soldier dies.
Many soldiers are drafted against their will, and fight for a cause they may not fully understand themselves. In the context of 1800's civilization, people were more loyal to their town and their state than they were their country. Many were fighting in defense of their state, and I doubt many owned slaves. Yes, many supported slavery, some did not, but I do not think an 1800's soldier fully understood all the polotics and issues at hand. I see no problem paying respect to those who died, just as I see no problem showing respect to Germans who died in WW2.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)as any army in American history.
Estimates range as high as 75 % of adult white men fought for the CSA during the war. That's a far higher percentage than supported secession.
Alexander Stevens was the greatest voice against secession, and then was elected vice-president of the CSA. Jubal Early, a Virginia lawyer was the leading voice in Virginia against secession. He ended up commanding one of the nine divisions in Lee's army in Gettysburg. His division captured York, Pennsylvania during the Gettysburg campaign. Check out a map and be surprised.
During the war the south lost about 1/4 of their adult white men killed and another 1/4 injured.
They formed their regiments by county so the men of the county marched off to war together led by their elected leader, often the preacher or the mayor. It had great advantages as the soldiers fought with their friends and relatives but there was a downside too. When a regiment was devastated by a charge or melee in a battle, you could lose half the adult white male population of the county in one hour. When that happened the county would often raise a memorial in its grief..
The union did not raise its regiments this way so didn't have the same devastation.
Anyway, I have nothing against the average Confederate soldier who was often 16 years old, maybe didn't even agree with secession, was drafted and serving in underfed, underarmed units because his state left the union and his duty was to defend his state.
Today we don't see states as important (well, Texas), but that wasn't the way it was in 1860. The fedearl government was much smaller back then and people's loyalties were to their states.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)against any treasonous soldier who fought under that rag of hate. And the fact that a whole county of adult white males, who were treasonous by the way, got wiped out? SO!. "Peoples loyalties were to their state", yeah, their color of skin also......very important fact that is left out in all discussions such as this. I lived down the road from the Chickamauga battlefield for years, history is something I know, from the genocide of the red man to the shooting in the back of unarmed POC running away. Southern pride and heritage stinks in it's racist hypocrisy.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)You charge people of treason without trial.
President Davis and General Lee were both charged with treason, but they were never tried.
That was fine with General Lee as her just wanted a quiet retirement.
But President Davis hired a high powered group of northern lawyers and demanded his right to an open and speedy trial. His defense was that secession was Constitutional.
The government never put him on trial. They just left him indicted for treason the rest of his life.
The reason was that there was a very real chance that the government would lose the trial. The Constitution was silent on secession and the Tenth Amendment said powers not expressly given to the federal government were reserved for the states. What would happen if Davis was found not guilty? Was the US army supposed to say oops and leave the south?
Better to just never give him his trial.
So not 150 years later, people can declare him guilty without ever granting him his trial.
How would you like being indicted for child molestation and saying you are completely innocent and look forward to your trial to show your innocence. Then the government never gives you your trial but instead just leaves you an indicted child molester the rest of your life. What would you do when someone called you a child molester?
I think you are allowing key rights of our Republic to be thrown away due to hatred. You're not being fair.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)defend the right of slave holders to keep people in forced bondage because of something called white supremacy. Still around today by the way, dylaan roof is a perfect example of the hate generated by their southern heritage and pride. What would you do if you have been called a n***** all your life, both surreptitiously and overtly, by people who stand up for that rag called a confederate flag. That's hate. I would have executed Jeff Davis and Lee. POC understand and are reminded of what's fair and what's not fair, everyday.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)hopefully after a trial. You would want a trial first wouldn't you? That is what Davis wanted and was denied.
There is a very real chance he would have been found not guilty.
Last edited Wed Jul 8, 2015, 12:21 PM - Edit history (1)
that the north was just as racist as the south and still is, no doubt he would have been found not guilty by a jury of his............peers
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)generally empty platitudes to freedom from federal tyranny and/or state rights, etc.
I strongly doubt Germany has officially sanctioned memorials honoring the ideals of the Third Reich.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)with them waving that flag-rag of hate in my face. But you can't understand that I see. So be it for the privileged as has been always in our great land.......
Farmbrook
(48 posts)I say shame on you and I have no respect for you and your ilk. How about you advocating instead for a statute honoring the millions and millions of slaves and American Indians that died at the hands of white America. Instead here you are worrying about three hundred soldiers that fought against America. Shame on you.
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)It was augmented. As a work of art, it has attracted a new commentary from its public.
I remember a charming little sign outside of a village in Illinois that read " don't let the sun set on your @@@ ass in our town" ...another work of perfomance art that pretty much had the same message as this piece of war porn. That sign is gone now, but the stories remain, and to the young who don't get racism in their hearts quite like their elders, it speaks to them still. There will come a time when that statue will be removed and only the echo of its message will remain. Like the dying appaulse that follows the close of the curtain, all part of the show. Personally, as performance art, I prefer the scaling of the flag pole and its mesage, but this is good too.
ProgressiveEconomist
(5,818 posts)could have imagined that African-American students would have to walk past that monument to genocide every day. Maids, janitors, and other servants would have been invisible to their masters. Now things have changed, and it is long past time for that everyday monstrous affront to people of colorand people of goodwill to come down.
Protesters used only paint, which could be removed when the statue found a new home off-campus.
vkkv
(3,384 posts)
marble falls
(57,081 posts)community that came here as a community from New Orleans/Katrina and stayed and have really done well about three months ago.
Screw that monument to a bunch of unAmerican traitorous defenders of slavery. Make gravel from it.
Notice none of them ever explain the "tradition" of what the Dixie Rag stands for except for how it mystically applies to military heros fighting a stupid war to an inevitable end.
Its meant to intimidate and that explains how its only become so popular since the sixties. Its the visual version of the n word/white power.
candelista
(1,986 posts)Liberals used to believe in freedom of expression, even for Nazis in Skokie. Nowadays, many self-styled liberals seem to want to censor everything they disagree with.
to get you right, just allow them to hate me and stay quietly in ones "place" and just let them march in their halloween costumes, burn crosses, murder people, revere flags and statues that allow them to vicariously scream I hate you n*****? Just trying to get a handle on your "liberalism." So am I correct?
But destorying property that does not belong to you is not the first starting point. Picket in front of the statute, petition to have it removed. But do not destory others property.
So in your world how do we determine what is a crime? Spray painting is ok if its in protest? What if some right wing protestors spray paint an abortion clinic. Is that ok in protest? Why not? Because you said so?
Yupster
(14,308 posts)Maybe it's only right for Isis to destroy its monuments.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I've been picketing since the 60's. Haven't done a damn bit of good. In your privileged world, their is 'no fear' because you don't have to worry about being hung, shot while running away or worshiping. Damn that 'property'!!!!!!!!!!!! Go try your privileged logic on someone else in your world, won't work with me, ever.
candelista
(1,986 posts)Seriously, I didn't say any of that stuff.
WhoWoodaKnew
(847 posts)if you use other means of bringing attention to an issue you don't look so juvenile. And, like it or not, that's what a lot of people (not just republicans) see when something like this happens.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)"not just republicans" haven't been hated all their life solely because of the color of ones skin either, methinks. But that's an insignificant point, to the privileged "not just republicans", I'm sure.
WhoWoodaKnew
(847 posts)There are much smarter ways to do these things and get MORE support. Isn't that the goal??
heaven05
(18,124 posts)seveneyes
(4,631 posts)RobinA
(9,893 posts)on this board understand this argument. The thinking seems to be that if you are on the side of the angels you can beat people over the head until they come around to your way of thinking.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)it's been a nightmare for POC in this hypocracy since it's inception. Red, black, brown, yellow for a while. Alice Cooper is part of the privileged class and never really liked it's music either. You don't know your history of racism, I've had to live it......geez
candelista
(1,986 posts)Is that when the junkies take over? 
the junkies for white supremacist power tried to take over during that 'civil war', they failed and have been pissed every since. From Presidents all the way down to the everyday person, male and female, just pissed. I know it's hypocrisy, just my play on the american lie of democracy for all, here and abroad.
candelista
(1,986 posts)But we're supposed to take you seriously, right?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:45 PM - Edit history (1)
by people living in a privileged area of amerikkkan reality. I really could care less about what or who people take seriously or not. I'm serious about the ongoing racial hate and economic disparity in the american hypocrisy called democracy. Yes, all my life I've been serious about injustice. Spray painting a statue, good start. Now tie a rope around it and pull it down so it breaks into a million pieces. Serious about that. Burn all the confederate rag-flags that I can find. Yep, serious about that. You have a good one...
Telcontar
(660 posts)Darb
(2,807 posts)I'm a bit confused.
Telcontar
(660 posts)Darb
(2,807 posts)I am not sure who the hell you are talking about. The post was about a confederate memorial being vandalized. You posted something about the American Taliban in response. Who is the American Taliban, the vandals or the folks that put up that statue?
Help me out here will ya? Just a bit confused.
