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Stuart G
(38,726 posts)Demsrule86
(70,673 posts)I object to concealed carry and think loopholes need to be closed...and those who sell guns illegally need to go to jail...we register cars and should do the same with guns.
Thomas Hurt
(13,909 posts)the two fools in Houston, who were in a car accident and pulled their guns and started shooting at each other on the street with others around.
Luciferous
(6,177 posts)shootings are like a daily occurrence here.
hunter
(38,725 posts)Disgusting.
sarisataka
(20,419 posts)A typical gun jumper is an octogenarian?
What do you find digusting-old people or that the home owner lived?
hunter
(38,725 posts)Calculating
(2,993 posts)hunter
(38,725 posts)That's sad on so many levels.
If that's ever me, fuck it, I'm already dead.
The irony is that this guy's guns were likely the only things that "thugs" would consider valuable.
ileus
(15,396 posts)Just because he's old it doesn't mean his life isn't worth protecting....right?
hunter
(38,725 posts)If so I'd suggest you find a living situation or a state of mind where that's unnecessary.
At this guy's age my grandpa, extremely competent with guns, who had outlived my grandma, wasn't sleeping alone in his retirement-assisted-living community, and my parents were questioning his choices of girlfriends as if he was a teenager. In that community the women vastly outnumbered the men.
I'd rather be like that than shoot another human being.
Sell the damned house, get rid of all the stuff, and party.
This story is sad.
The_jackalope
(1,660 posts)I think I'd much prefer your grandfather to this guy. Love trumps fear any day in my books.
(Ex GliderGuider)
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And he was correct. Law abiding old veteran sleeping in his house and he hears a couple of thugs breaking into his home. Grabs his legal gun and walks thru his own home. To be attacked by intruders. And like he did in Korea he fought like hell and killed one of SOBs and drove off the other one. In his own home
And a Democrat here on Democratic Underground attacks him. Because he is old and owns guns.
And we wonder why we lose elections.
hunter
(38,725 posts)The U.S.A. is a sad place.
Alea
(706 posts)Don't answer, it won't make since anyway.
Edit: Changed lol to smh because lol is not appropriate. Nothing laughable about it.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Tipperary
(6,930 posts)His guns were likely the only things the thugs would consider valuable. There is a reason people like that live alone.
Lots of assumptions there on your part. How do you know what valuables he has? You do not. You know nothing and are simply making things up to fit your narrative.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)The criminal he shot deserved what he got.
Demsrule86
(70,673 posts)to live.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)hunter
(38,725 posts)I'd still rather sleep with mammals than a loaded gun.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)hunter
(38,725 posts)I know the mayhem I'm capable of and I'm a pacifist by necessity not by any natural inclination. I'm competent with firearms. It's my experience that once the guns come out everything is fubar.
There's no chance in hell I'll ever be this guy.
If by some misfortune I land in my own house alienated from friends and family there will still be big animal shelter rescue dogs sleeping on my bed and crazy roommates sleeping in the extra bedrooms, and complete strangers sleeping on the living room sofa, a few maybe who deserve to be shot, but not today.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,403 posts)Demsrule86
(70,673 posts)think guns are important should cooperate with common sense gun registration and background checks...or something horrific will happen and you will lose big. Consider the most recent shooting in Las Vegas. Had the killer continued, thousands would be dead.
sarisataka
(20,419 posts)people who should not guns. I support and promote background checks and legislation banning guns from DV offenders among other measures.
Still- what is "disgusting" about an elderly person defending himself from two attackers in his own home?
Calculating
(2,993 posts)Wtf man?
Luciferous
(6,177 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And they wonder why we lose elections
Sailor65x1
(554 posts)This homeowner should have simply been sacrificed on the alter of delicate sensibilities?
MineralMan
(147,082 posts)It's a risky thing to do, it seems to me.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)Do you oppose self defense?
IronLionZion
(46,725 posts)the homeowner was defending himself
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)First degree? Second degree? I would believe manslaughter in the absence of intent, but murder?
IronLionZion
(46,725 posts)but the robber is charged, not the homeowner defending himself.
It happened recently when 2 guys high on drugs were breaking into a trailer and a woman protecting her child shot them both killing one. The one that lived got charged.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)I said I was going to buy a gun. The cops told me I'd better be careful because, if someone just broke in and I shot them, I could be charged. I would need to be defending myself against imminent danger. I don't know if he was just trying to talk me out of buying a gun or if he was telling the truth.
It seems like there could be a whole slew of reasons to charge the criminal. For instance, it might appear more grievous an offense to break in on a woman protecting her child or an 80 year old man. If the burglars had weapons, that might be something that influences the decision. The law most likely differs state to state, too. I just don't know if there is an absolute on bringing charges against the surviving burglar. It would be nice if they caught the man and did sentence him to manslaughter.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)and I would not have taken the police officer's statement as a fact without during my own research.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)The very act of forcible entry into a occupied home is legally considered a mortal threat to the homeowner.
The burglar played a stupid game and lost. If his accomplice is found he should be charged with accessory to murder.
Old man did nothing wrong.
IronLionZion
(46,725 posts)it's easier to kill people in red states that have laws like castle doctrine and stand your ground.
The woman protecting her young child was in Oklahoma and they charged the burglar with his friend's death.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)I live in CO, which has a stand your ground law. I think interpretation of that law might even vary county to county. I was living in what is supposed to be one of the most liberal cities in the state at the time. Had I been living in, say, CO Springs, the cop might have encouraged me to buy a gun.
NutmegYankee
(16,283 posts)For instance, Connecticut is one of the most anti-gun states, but has Castile doctrine for both home and business.
Normally the law is duty to retreat when faced with violent force, but nearly every state recognizes that that duty is no longer required in the home, as your home is the final refuge. If someone breaks in and is a threat, you cant run any further and deadly force is authorized to protect yourself.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And it can come in degrees depending on the state.
Lets say you and your friend decide to rob a bank. During the course of the robbery your friend shoots a bank guard and the guard dies, another guard shoots your friend and he dies.
Under Felony Murder statutes you can be charge for both deaths. And in fact if you have a getaway driver waiting in a car so can he.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)People broke into his house and he defended himself. You think he should be charged with murder? Should he have waited to see if his life was in any danger? Perhaps them shooting first? They were obviously up to no good and it's completely reasonable to assume it could become more than a simple burglary. They certainly weren't there to bake him cookies.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)renate
(13,776 posts)But I have to admit that this is one of the minority of cases in which a gun actually was used to defend oneself against what would probably been injury or death. I can't blame the guy for shooting an intruder.
Corgigal
(9,292 posts)The neighbors are aware of you, and some of them may not be nice people.
While it scary that he slept with a gun, he probably isn't as quick as he use to be. So he felt, for him to sleep and be safe, to have a loaded gun close at hand. I can't fault the guy, it may have saved his life.
Kaleva
(37,665 posts)stonecutter357
(12,760 posts)ecstatic
(34,016 posts)A loaded gun under the pillow is just an accident waiting to happen. I assume he has no grandkids or family that visits?
ETA: I'm not against a gun for home defense. But a gun under the pillow isn't safe and would create a lot of anxiety, at least for me. A constant reminder that you might have to kill someone?
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)Well, it said he has no children, so,
yeah,
you can assume he has no grandchildren.
lame54
(36,336 posts)Beaverhausen
(24,548 posts)Just wondering.
Kaleva
(37,665 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)In the old mans home. Guy got what he deserved. Hope his accompise is caught and put away for a long time.
Beaverhausen
(24,548 posts)I also didn't know robbery was a capital crime.
So it sounds like neither of the robbers was armed.
LisaL
(46,141 posts)A man has a right to defend himself in his own home. Furthermore, there are other things someone could hurt or kill an elderly man with other than a gun.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Or at least not to the point that they can not fuck you up.
Breaking into an occupied home in this country is courting death.
And that is not a partisan issue. I find someone in my home at night they will get shot. And most Americans and members of the Democratic Party will agree.
Agreeing with reasonable restrictions on guns does not mean being against ownership of guns. Or using them to defend yourself and your family.
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,084 posts)The law takes more into account then just whether a person is armed or not, or with what type of weapon they may have. A person's physical strength and size plays into it, as well as age and gender. Other things like if the attacker is known to have training, or if the one being attacked has a physical disability also factors in.
Alea
(706 posts)How would he know they would not kill him. That "but they were not armed" argument don't fly for home intrusion. Old guy had every right to ventilate those criminals.
Robbery, and especially home invasion, may not be a capital crime, but it can sure get you a death sentence. Criminals know this and they accept the risk. We should respect their decision.
infidel621
(36 posts)Perhaps see if they shoot first? They are illegally in your house with malicious intent. Does he really need to wait and see exactly how malicious that intent is before he defends himself?
mythology
(9,527 posts)that you will die from it. 1 self-defense killing for every 78 suicides. Although his odds probably are a little better since he lives alone.
LisaL
(46,141 posts)Calculating
(2,993 posts)IE pills, slit wrists, hanging, jumping off a building, jumping in front of a train, etc? Suicide is tragic, but really can't be blamed on guns.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)The suicide rate in Japan, where guns are very restricted, shows that limiting access to they doesnt change rates.
But trotting our suicide numbers makes for a great way to try and ban guns. If people actually cared about suicide they would advocate for better access to mental health care.
You can tell that the posters claims were not actually aimed at providing any actual meaningful data too by the way they manipulated data- comparing suicide deaths only to deaths that happen in self defense- when most cases of a gun used for self defense dont end up with the attacker dead. But when they use that unrealistic metric of only counting self defense actions when the attacker is killed they can make actual self defense seem much rarer than it actually is. When you see that claim you can always tell you are dealing with someone dishonest on the subject.
Kaleva
(37,665 posts)For an apt comparison, one would have to look at the suicide rate in Japan today and compare it to what the suicide rate was when the general population had relatively easy access to guns which was never the case. It's just speculation to say that limiting access doesn't change rates in Japan. One could also speculate that rates would increase if there was little to no limits on access.
Kaleva
(37,665 posts)"Our findings also add to the evidence that higher gun ownership is associated with higher overall suicide rates among male persons."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4984734/
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)1 self-defense killing for every 78 suicides sounds like a really alarming statistic.
And it would be if it wasnt a dishonest bullshit manipulation of the statistics to get to that alarming statistic.
Comparing only self-defense cases where the attacker gets killed is a totally dishonest way to frame the debate, because most defensive uses of guns dont involve the attacker being killed. Most dont even involve the firearm actually being fired because the presentation of the firearm in most cases is enough to change the dynamics of the situthay required self defense to be used.
But by framing the argument to only count instances of self defense where the attacker not only is shot but actually dies from their injuries you get to ignore the vast, vast majority of cases where guns are used defensively and pretend they dont exist when citing your bogus statistics. Especially since most gunshot wounds are survived these days.
Mythology, indeed.
Sailor65x1
(554 posts)Win stupid prizes...
Good for this guy. Took out at least some of the trash and undoubtedly saved someone else, who might not have fared so well, from a future attack.
Orrex
(63,759 posts)In fairness to the Post-Gazette, that detail wasn't immediately revealed at the time of the incident.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/12/intruder_killed_by_84-year-old.html
The intruder was apparently a pretty shady character, and I don't fault Lutz for acting in self-defense.
Still, it's always said when a family member gets shot, however justifiably.
LisaL
(46,141 posts)uncle in law slept with a gun under his pillow. Not a smart idea to break into his house.
Kaleva
(37,665 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)The aberrant feel-good gun story we're sold as a bill of goods every five or six months.
Yay! Guns! Happiness is... Bang, bang, shoot, shoot.