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Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:20 AM

Was Al Franken denied a right to due process

in the form of a Senate ethics investigation and hearing?

According to Politico,

The Democratic women of the Senate had been talking among themselves about the Franken allegations for weeks, one Democratic aide said. None, however, went further than to call for a Senate Ethics Committee probe of the Minnesota senator, whom many had considered a close friend.

That stance became increasingly untenable as the accusations against Franken piled up. In calls and texts, the female senators eventually came to an unstated agreement, according to another aide familiar with their discussions: The next credible story of misconduct in a credible news outlet would prompt them to call for Franken's resignation.

When POLITICO reported Wednesday that a former Democratic congressional aide said Franken tried to forcibly kiss her in 2006, the aide said, it ďwas the tipping point.Ē

The "next credible story of misconduct" concern an allegation of a 2006 attempt of an welcome kiss that the accuser found offensive, distasteful, and inappropriate. For his part, Franken denies the accuracy of this account.

Should Franken have been afforded a right to an investigation and hearing? Or was this truly "a red line in the sand"?

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/al-franken-democratic-senators-284915

42 replies, 6844 views

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Arrow 42 replies Author Time Post
Reply Was Al Franken denied a right to due process (Original post)
lapucelle Dec 2017 OP
brooklynite Dec 2017 #1
lapucelle Dec 2017 #3
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #6
dalton99a Dec 2017 #30
Irish_Dem Dec 2017 #28
aikoaiko Dec 2017 #39
PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #2
lapucelle Dec 2017 #4
PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #10
Jakes Progress Dec 2017 #13
PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #19
Jakes Progress Dec 2017 #37
PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #38
Jakes Progress Dec 2017 #42
lapucelle Dec 2017 #22
Loki Liesmith Dec 2017 #5
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #8
PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #11
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #12
PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #14
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #16
rzemanfl Dec 2017 #27
Me. Dec 2017 #7
110liberal Dec 2017 #9
lapucelle Dec 2017 #15
PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #17
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #18
tritsofme Dec 2017 #20
LeftInTX Dec 2017 #21
lapucelle Dec 2017 #23
NCTraveler Dec 2017 #24
lapucelle Dec 2017 #33
NCTraveler Dec 2017 #35
DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2017 #25
dsc Dec 2017 #40
MoonRiver Dec 2017 #26
Jarqui Dec 2017 #29
R B Garr Dec 2017 #31
JHB Dec 2017 #32
lapucelle Dec 2017 #34
JHB Dec 2017 #36
Nevernose Dec 2017 #41

Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:23 AM

1. If he wanted one, he could have stayed around until he got one...

...nobody forced him to step down. But neither can he automatically hold onto his power and influence if other question his reputation.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:36 AM

3. Franken did want want an investigation and hearing,

and saying that he "wasn't forced" to resign, while technically correct, belies the reality of what actually occurred yesterday.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:41 AM

6. And Frankie Pentangeli could have lived out his years in The Villages in Florida

 

The leadership owns this no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:28 AM

30. Perfect.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:21 AM

28. I agree. No one forced him to apologize and resign. nt

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:24 PM

39. This.

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:35 AM

2. He wasn't expelled from the Senate (as other Senators have been). He wasn't denied "due process"...

any more than President Trump is by people suggesting he should resign.

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:38 AM

4. Nor was he afforded the opportunity for due process before yesterday's calls for his resignation.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:56 AM

10. He could have chosen to stay in the Senate. If the Senate chose to expell him...

he would have gotten the opportunity for "due process". This is why if you didn't do anything wrong and someone
says you did don't give up - fight. Go watch Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.


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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:00 AM

13. Go watch "The Crucible"

Then read a little to see how the real world works.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:11 AM

19. A bit different when people hang you instead of suggesting you leave. n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 08:30 PM

37. Count on you to miss the point.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:23 PM

38. The reality is Franken is still alive, and hasn't even actually resigned yet. n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 12:49 AM

42. The reality (the point of the reference) is

not that someone got killed. It is that a hysterical band of purity hypocrites get all worked up over some false accusations and run a vigilante witch hunt because they thing it makes them look good. The point isn't even that he resigned. It was the shitty behavior of the senators who rushed to judgement without evidence or process or clear thinking.

trump is still alive. moore is still alive. They will be running things without interference from a decent man who got rat-fucked.

When Miller wrote the play, he wasn't warning that staying alive was all that was needed to fix a problem. Look at the history of the period when Miller was writing for the inspiration and message of the play.

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:24 AM

22. Franken is staying for a few weeks; that is evidence of his fighting

to the extent that he is currently able.

As for your movie recommendation, thank you, but I've seen the film several times. We do not live in a Capraesque world today anymore than Americans did in the 1930's, and the sophistication of the propaganda machine in the present day makes Taylor's efforts seem downright quaint.


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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:39 AM

5. Nonsense.

There's many kinds of power to exert on someone, and most is not governmental. He was sacrificed on the altar of the Alabama election.

Which we will lose anyway.

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:44 AM

8. I would love to hear your thoughts on high school bullying

 

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:56 AM

11. I'm opposed to it. n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:58 AM

12. Do you believe that bullying has consequences and can affect personal decisions?

 

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:01 AM

14. Are you implying 35 Democratic Senators are bullies? n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:07 AM

16. I'm not implying anything. I am saying precisely that.

 

This is the greatest display of dishonesty, bullying and character assassination I can remember.

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:21 AM

27. What??????????????????? n/t

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:44 AM

7. My Thought Is Yes

he should've been able to have that investigation and then, if the results warranted a pile on, then so be it.

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:55 AM

9. general

this was a hit job plane and simple. There is no high ground when you turn on him like they did.

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Response to 110liberal (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:05 AM

15. I find it interesting that Franken did not resign effective today,

but will stay on for a few weeks. He didn't slink away. He faced those who judged him head on. Now they will have to do the same.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:08 AM

17. Be interesting to see what he does over the next couple of weeks. n/t

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:09 AM

18. I am sure Al Franken is one vindictive son of a bitch

 

but he isn't going to make it too easy for the Republicans to take advantage of this fiasco.

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:16 AM

20. Politics can be unfair, there is no right to due process in the court of public opinion

I don't see it as much more complicated than that.

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:21 AM

21. When I think of due process, I think of legal stuff

I think he was treated very unfairly and railroaded.

Unless everyone knows something that we don't know. But then he is an elected official and voters should know what is true and isn't true.

To some extent, voters were also treated unfairly. Although any member of congress can resign for any reason, I feel that his supporters were also given a raw deal.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:08 AM

23. I think you're right. Maybe a "fair hearing" would be a better term.

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:12 AM

24. He hasnt been charged with anything..

 

Outside of the court of public opinion. Due process, being railroaded, and fairness are not interchangeable terms.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:36 AM

33. I'm not contending that these words or terms are synonymous.

Definition of due process
a course of formal proceedings (such as legal proceedings) carried out regularly and in accordance with established rules and principles ó called also procedural due process

Definition of a fair hearing
a consideration of statements or arguments from both sides of an issue.

Definition of fairness (noun)
just, equitable, impartial, unbiased, dispassionate, objective consideration, free from favor toward either or any side. Fair implies a proper balance of conflicting interests.

Definition of railroad (transitive verb)
a : to convict with undue haste and by means of false charges or insufficient evidence
b : to push through hastily or without due consideration.

Which word or term best applies to the Franken situation?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/


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Response to lapucelle (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:49 AM

35. The only one that matters.

 

Resignation.

Public opinion clearly doesnít hold a consensus on this one.

He has not been denied due process. Thatís out. There is an extremely good chance, considering the years of most of the accusations, there would have been no due process if it came to a congressional ethics investigation.

Fairness -We are talking about politicians creating perceptions. Itís not fair nor should it be.

Railroaded - Very possible. I believe it at least started in that manner. In the end he is a grown man making his own decisions. Iím not sure why all the people pissed at the party arenít furious at how Franken has handled it on his end. For the most part, his initial stance was to take damn near no stance. Waiting is a political decision that will almost always damn a politician. Thatís why I verge away from railroaded. I believe Franken is an intelligent and thoughtful adult. He should get no free passes the way he botched the crap out of this.

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:19 AM

25. The Packwood investigation took three years

At the end of Franken's investigation we would likely be where we are at now with Franken admitting most of the incidents took place , but not all of them, with his remembrances of them being different.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:35 PM

40. that is an absurd amount of time

This could have, and should have, been investigated in at most a month. Congress takes a break in Dec and for a large part of Jan as well. Those days could have been used for this hearing. Testimony could have been evaluated and decisions made.

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:20 AM

26. He was lynched by the Senatorial mob.

I won't forget.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:26 AM

29. I agree

30+ Dem Senators calling for his resignation curtailed due process in the face of shaky allegations - given folks like Hannity & Trump Jr & Trump supporters instigated and backed at the very least some of them.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:31 AM

31. Yup, he was sacrificied as some phony high ground morality leverage that

the GOP doesn't give a crap about anyways, most definitely not from liberals. Then they'll squander that ill-gotten leverage, too. I already heard one rep from New York (Rice) giving her contrived spiel about Paul Ryan et al now sending the GOP accused home, and they obviously have no clue what they are up against.

A star Senator like Al Franken is way too valuable to be treated like this. I will not forget this, either. There is no excuse for their callous treatment of Minnesota voters who went to the polls to elect their Senator. It's beyond outrageous.

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:34 AM

32. The same "credible news outlet"s that "credibly" flacked every RW claim about Hillary?

The same "credible news outlet"s that were just dying for a claim about a Democrat so they could retreat to their "both sides do it" comfort zone?

The "credible news outlet"s that have long been so eager for salacious news about a Democrat that if you pointed over their shoulder and said "Holy shit! Is that Bill Clinton's penis?" their heads would whip around so fast they'd snap their own necks?

Those outlets?

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Response to JHB (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:43 AM

34. I'm not the one who characterized the source as "credible".

Nor do I think the that the disputed allegation "I think he was going to try to kiss me" is a particularly heinous claim.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:22 PM

36. And I didn't claim you did. It was the senators who did...

...according to the aide who talked to Politico.

And they did that under circumstances where "credible outlets" have a track record of becoming "credulous outlets."

My apologies if my comments seemed directed at you.

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Response to lapucelle (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:37 PM

41. Two credible claims in one day!

1. Al Franken was a total stranger and we had never seen each other in the office building before. Then, Al Franken did NOT kiss me. And then Al Franken literally paraphrased Donald Trumpís Access Hollywood tape.

2. I asked Al Franken to take a photo with me, at a party. He did. When we posed, he put his arm around my waist. He didnít say, touch, or otherwise DO anything sexual, but I could tell from his grip, which was not on an inappropriate body part and my husband could see, that he secretly WANTED to sexually harass or assault me. My experience therefore proves all the other anonymous women are telling the truth.

Clearly we need pitchforks and torches!

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