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lapucelle

(18,423 posts)
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:20 AM Dec 2017

Was Al Franken denied a right to due process

in the form of a Senate ethics investigation and hearing?

According to Politico,

The Democratic women of the Senate had been talking among themselves about the Franken allegations for weeks, one Democratic aide said. None, however, went further than to call for a Senate Ethics Committee probe of the Minnesota senator, whom many had considered a close friend.

That stance became increasingly untenable as the accusations against Franken piled up. In calls and texts, the female senators eventually came to an unstated agreement, according to another aide familiar with their discussions: The next credible story of misconduct in a credible news outlet would prompt them to call for Franken's resignation.

When POLITICO reported Wednesday that a former Democratic congressional aide said Franken tried to forcibly kiss her in 2006, the aide said, it “was the tipping point.”

The "next credible story of misconduct" concern an allegation of a 2006 attempt of an welcome kiss that the accuser found offensive, distasteful, and inappropriate. For his part, Franken denies the accuracy of this account.

Should Franken have been afforded a right to an investigation and hearing? Or was this truly "a red line in the sand"?

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/al-franken-democratic-senators-284915
42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Was Al Franken denied a right to due process (Original Post) lapucelle Dec 2017 OP
If he wanted one, he could have stayed around until he got one... brooklynite Dec 2017 #1
Franken did want want an investigation and hearing, lapucelle Dec 2017 #3
And Frankie Pentangeli could have lived out his years in The Villages in Florida Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #6
Perfect. dalton99a Dec 2017 #30
I agree. No one forced him to apologize and resign. nt Irish_Dem Dec 2017 #28
This. aikoaiko Dec 2017 #39
He wasn't expelled from the Senate (as other Senators have been). He wasn't denied "due process"... PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #2
Nor was he afforded the opportunity for due process before yesterday's calls for his resignation. lapucelle Dec 2017 #4
He could have chosen to stay in the Senate. If the Senate chose to expell him... PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #10
Go watch "The Crucible" Jakes Progress Dec 2017 #13
A bit different when people hang you instead of suggesting you leave. n/t PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #19
Count on you to miss the point. Jakes Progress Dec 2017 #37
The reality is Franken is still alive, and hasn't even actually resigned yet. n/t PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #38
The reality (the point of the reference) is Jakes Progress Dec 2017 #42
Franken is staying for a few weeks; that is evidence of his fighting lapucelle Dec 2017 #22
Nonsense. Loki Liesmith Dec 2017 #5
I would love to hear your thoughts on high school bullying Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #8
I'm opposed to it. n/t PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #11
Do you believe that bullying has consequences and can affect personal decisions? Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #12
Are you implying 35 Democratic Senators are bullies? n/t PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #14
I'm not implying anything. I am saying precisely that. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #16
What??????????????????? n/t rzemanfl Dec 2017 #27
My Thought Is Yes Me. Dec 2017 #7
general 110liberal Dec 2017 #9
I find it interesting that Franken did not resign effective today, lapucelle Dec 2017 #15
Be interesting to see what he does over the next couple of weeks. n/t PoliticAverse Dec 2017 #17
I am sure Al Franken is one vindictive son of a bitch Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2017 #18
Politics can be unfair, there is no right to due process in the court of public opinion tritsofme Dec 2017 #20
When I think of due process, I think of legal stuff LeftInTX Dec 2017 #21
I think you're right. Maybe a "fair hearing" would be a better term. lapucelle Dec 2017 #23
He hasnt been charged with anything.. NCTraveler Dec 2017 #24
I'm not contending that these words or terms are synonymous. lapucelle Dec 2017 #33
The only one that matters. NCTraveler Dec 2017 #35
The Packwood investigation took three years DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2017 #25
that is an absurd amount of time dsc Dec 2017 #40
He was lynched by the Senatorial mob. MoonRiver Dec 2017 #26
I agree Jarqui Dec 2017 #29
Yup, he was sacrificied as some phony high ground morality leverage that R B Garr Dec 2017 #31
The same "credible news outlet"s that "credibly" flacked every RW claim about Hillary? JHB Dec 2017 #32
I'm not the one who characterized the source as "credible". lapucelle Dec 2017 #34
And I didn't claim you did. It was the senators who did... JHB Dec 2017 #36
Two credible claims in one day! Nevernose Dec 2017 #41

brooklynite

(95,196 posts)
1. If he wanted one, he could have stayed around until he got one...
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:23 AM
Dec 2017

...nobody forced him to step down. But neither can he automatically hold onto his power and influence if other question his reputation.

lapucelle

(18,423 posts)
3. Franken did want want an investigation and hearing,
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:36 AM
Dec 2017

and saying that he "wasn't forced" to resign, while technically correct, belies the reality of what actually occurred yesterday.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
6. And Frankie Pentangeli could have lived out his years in The Villages in Florida
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:41 AM
Dec 2017

The leadership owns this no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
2. He wasn't expelled from the Senate (as other Senators have been). He wasn't denied "due process"...
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:35 AM
Dec 2017

any more than President Trump is by people suggesting he should resign.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
10. He could have chosen to stay in the Senate. If the Senate chose to expell him...
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:56 AM
Dec 2017

he would have gotten the opportunity for "due process". This is why if you didn't do anything wrong and someone
says you did don't give up - fight. Go watch Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.


Jakes Progress

(11,125 posts)
42. The reality (the point of the reference) is
Sat Dec 9, 2017, 12:49 AM
Dec 2017

not that someone got killed. It is that a hysterical band of purity hypocrites get all worked up over some false accusations and run a vigilante witch hunt because they thing it makes them look good. The point isn't even that he resigned. It was the shitty behavior of the senators who rushed to judgement without evidence or process or clear thinking.

trump is still alive. moore is still alive. They will be running things without interference from a decent man who got rat-fucked.

When Miller wrote the play, he wasn't warning that staying alive was all that was needed to fix a problem. Look at the history of the period when Miller was writing for the inspiration and message of the play.

lapucelle

(18,423 posts)
22. Franken is staying for a few weeks; that is evidence of his fighting
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:24 AM
Dec 2017

to the extent that he is currently able.

As for your movie recommendation, thank you, but I've seen the film several times. We do not live in a Capraesque world today anymore than Americans did in the 1930's, and the sophistication of the propaganda machine in the present day makes Taylor's efforts seem downright quaint.


Loki Liesmith

(4,602 posts)
5. Nonsense.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:39 AM
Dec 2017

There's many kinds of power to exert on someone, and most is not governmental. He was sacrificed on the altar of the Alabama election.

Which we will lose anyway.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
16. I'm not implying anything. I am saying precisely that.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:07 AM
Dec 2017

This is the greatest display of dishonesty, bullying and character assassination I can remember.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
7. My Thought Is Yes
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:44 AM
Dec 2017

he should've been able to have that investigation and then, if the results warranted a pile on, then so be it.

lapucelle

(18,423 posts)
15. I find it interesting that Franken did not resign effective today,
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:05 AM
Dec 2017

but will stay on for a few weeks. He didn't slink away. He faced those who judged him head on. Now they will have to do the same.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
18. I am sure Al Franken is one vindictive son of a bitch
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:09 AM
Dec 2017

but he isn't going to make it too easy for the Republicans to take advantage of this fiasco.

tritsofme

(17,471 posts)
20. Politics can be unfair, there is no right to due process in the court of public opinion
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:16 AM
Dec 2017

I don't see it as much more complicated than that.

LeftInTX

(25,939 posts)
21. When I think of due process, I think of legal stuff
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:21 AM
Dec 2017

I think he was treated very unfairly and railroaded.

Unless everyone knows something that we don't know. But then he is an elected official and voters should know what is true and isn't true.

To some extent, voters were also treated unfairly. Although any member of congress can resign for any reason, I feel that his supporters were also given a raw deal.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
24. He hasnt been charged with anything..
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:12 AM
Dec 2017

Outside of the court of public opinion. Due process, being railroaded, and fairness are not interchangeable terms.

lapucelle

(18,423 posts)
33. I'm not contending that these words or terms are synonymous.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:36 AM
Dec 2017
Definition of due process
a course of formal proceedings (such as legal proceedings) carried out regularly and in accordance with established rules and principles — called also procedural due process

Definition of a fair hearing
a consideration of statements or arguments from both sides of an issue.

Definition of fairness (noun)
just, equitable, impartial, unbiased, dispassionate, objective consideration, free from favor toward either or any side. Fair implies a proper balance of conflicting interests.

Definition of railroad (transitive verb)
a : to convict with undue haste and by means of false charges or insufficient evidence
b : to push through hastily or without due consideration.

Which word or term best applies to the Franken situation?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/


 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
35. The only one that matters.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:49 AM
Dec 2017

Resignation.

Public opinion clearly doesn’t hold a consensus on this one.

He has not been denied due process. That’s out. There is an extremely good chance, considering the years of most of the accusations, there would have been no due process if it came to a congressional ethics investigation.

Fairness -We are talking about politicians creating perceptions. It’s not fair nor should it be.

Railroaded - Very possible. I believe it at least started in that manner. In the end he is a grown man making his own decisions. I’m not sure why all the people pissed at the party aren’t furious at how Franken has handled it on his end. For the most part, his initial stance was to take damn near no stance. Waiting is a political decision that will almost always damn a politician. That’s why I verge away from railroaded. I believe Franken is an intelligent and thoughtful adult. He should get no free passes the way he botched the crap out of this.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,719 posts)
25. The Packwood investigation took three years
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:19 AM
Dec 2017

At the end of Franken's investigation we would likely be where we are at now with Franken admitting most of the incidents took place , but not all of them, with his remembrances of them being different.

dsc

(52,187 posts)
40. that is an absurd amount of time
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:35 PM
Dec 2017

This could have, and should have, been investigated in at most a month. Congress takes a break in Dec and for a large part of Jan as well. Those days could have been used for this hearing. Testimony could have been evaluated and decisions made.

Jarqui

(10,131 posts)
29. I agree
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:26 AM
Dec 2017

30+ Dem Senators calling for his resignation curtailed due process in the face of shaky allegations - given folks like Hannity & Trump Jr & Trump supporters instigated and backed at the very least some of them.

R B Garr

(17,027 posts)
31. Yup, he was sacrificied as some phony high ground morality leverage that
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:31 AM
Dec 2017

the GOP doesn't give a crap about anyways, most definitely not from liberals. Then they'll squander that ill-gotten leverage, too. I already heard one rep from New York (Rice) giving her contrived spiel about Paul Ryan et al now sending the GOP accused home, and they obviously have no clue what they are up against.

A star Senator like Al Franken is way too valuable to be treated like this. I will not forget this, either. There is no excuse for their callous treatment of Minnesota voters who went to the polls to elect their Senator. It's beyond outrageous.

JHB

(37,170 posts)
32. The same "credible news outlet"s that "credibly" flacked every RW claim about Hillary?
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:34 AM
Dec 2017

The same "credible news outlet"s that were just dying for a claim about a Democrat so they could retreat to their "both sides do it" comfort zone?

The "credible news outlet"s that have long been so eager for salacious news about a Democrat that if you pointed over their shoulder and said "Holy shit! Is that Bill Clinton's penis?" their heads would whip around so fast they'd snap their own necks?

Those outlets?

lapucelle

(18,423 posts)
34. I'm not the one who characterized the source as "credible".
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:43 AM
Dec 2017

Nor do I think the that the disputed allegation "I think he was going to try to kiss me" is a particularly heinous claim.

JHB

(37,170 posts)
36. And I didn't claim you did. It was the senators who did...
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:22 PM
Dec 2017

...according to the aide who talked to Politico.

And they did that under circumstances where "credible outlets" have a track record of becoming "credulous outlets."

My apologies if my comments seemed directed at you.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
41. Two credible claims in one day!
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:37 PM
Dec 2017

1. Al Franken was a total stranger and we had never seen each other in the office building before. Then, Al Franken did NOT kiss me. And then Al Franken literally paraphrased Donald Trump’s Access Hollywood tape.

2. I asked Al Franken to take a photo with me, at a party. He did. When we posed, he put his arm around my waist. He didn’t say, touch, or otherwise DO anything sexual, but I could tell from his grip, which was not on an inappropriate body part and my husband could see, that he secretly WANTED to sexually harass or assault me. My experience therefore proves all the other anonymous women are telling the truth.

Clearly we need pitchforks and torches!

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