Why is it *ONLY* women?

[Archae]

What especially bothers me is how women who harass men, (Oh yeah, a few do,) seem to get off scot-free.

Decades ago a female boss I had was bothering me, and I'm a male.

Finally I got fed up and quit.

The woman got up to head manager, before finally she was canned.

[uppityperson]

1. It's not "only" women but people of all genders and orientations

[Archae]

3. Agree.

It really isn't sex.

It's power.

[TheDebbieDee]

28. I keep trying to explain to my daughter that sexual harassment

IS about power, not sex or beauty!

[hlthe2b]

5. Exactly.... Sort of like the ole "white lives matter" retort to "black lives matter" after

centuries of repression & inequality. No one is defending ANYONE who engages in that type of behavior. (Period)

[Mediumsizedhand]

2. Trump was elected, O'Reilly is on his way back, and Weinstein will be back too, promise.

I just read about a sex trafficker who is a professor get a 2 yr probation sentence.

Judges are worried about the rapists future.

I am not really understanding your point.

[Eliot Rosewater]

4. Isnt that something like "why is it ONLY black lives matter?

Because blue lives matter too.

But the senseless gunning down of police in the streets for things like jaywalking

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html


is not really happening, or for selling cigarettes

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/dec/04/i-cant-breathe-eric-garner-chokehold-death-video

but it does happen to black people and BECAUSE they are black.

So I guess it is kind of similar in that sure men are harassed by women, but the conditions and occurrences are different.

I only thought of this because of my friend who wore a "blue lives matter" wristband to a coffee klatch we guys had one day and all I could do is roll my eyes.


Having said all that, a close friend worked as a "hotshot fire crew-member" for USFS and he had a supervisor, female, who was a narcissist who caused his life to be hell. So it does happen.

[mountain grammy]

43. Well said.. good answer to this post.

[Eliot Rosewater]

59. Thank you.

[saidsimplesimon]

6. Wow, truth be told?

I take offense to the "ONLY" in you title. Sounds like my bothers.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

7. Why is what only women?

[Archae]

9. Only women harassed get spoken of.

When was the last time you heard of a man being sexually harassed by a woman?

I know I was.

Like I said above, it's not sex.
It's power.

[pnwmom]

8. Is this a joke?

It obviously is mostly men who have been getting away with this. Your boss finally suffered some consequences; so is Harvey Weinstein, after decades.

[Archae]

11. Which I applaud, Weinstein frinally get his.

It just bothers me that no one ever takes any women like this to task.

It likewise took decades to get the woman who was coming on to me fired.

[hlthe2b]

13. Until very recently, NO ONE took men to task (at least in any major numbers)

Likewise, women have only had the power to engage in such abysmal behavior very recently. It excuses nothing, but something you should keep in mind. It really is chipping the edge of a very large iceberg, when you focus only on women as harassers--at the expense of the much larger problem and dilutes efforts to effect change.

[tymorial]

18. It doesn't excuse the behavior and yet it is minimized.

Inevitability there will always be a number of people who will minimize a male abuse victim because women are abused in greater numbers. It is in this very thread.

It is absolutely true that women suffer sexual abuse more often and in greater numbers than men. Minimizing however reinforces the belief that no one cares about male victims of abuse. I have experienced this myself on many occasions. Males who have been abused are an inconvenience that must be set aside and corrected because there is a "larger" issue.

Numbers alone yes women are abused more. We agree. Its repugnant and must be addressed. Weinstein and Trump belong in prison.

Still, I don't understand why compassion is so often withheld or if it is even felt.

[hlthe2b]

20. You NEED to read. I stated clearly: " It excuses nothing"

Very much like the RW attempt to minimize murder of blacks by focusing on the far less common police killing of unarmed white suspects to those in the Black Lives Matter movement, this is a disingenuous response to the most imminent impact. That does NOT mean we don't care about other races, genders, ethnicities or the full range of the problem. To equate this to being incompassionate towards anyone by focusing on the largest aspect and most immediate aspect of the problem--is just wrong.

Same here. Of course No One should be harassed. That does not mean we should be diverted from the largest focus and the very real and continuing power inequities that lie behind it.

[smirkymonkey]

29. Thank YOU!

Another "What about the men?" post to divert the attention from the very pervasive and serious problem of male on female sexual harassment.

I have no doubt that it happens the other way around, and I do feel badly for those people. But the issue is that it is mostly men who are in power and who abuse it by taking sexual advantage of women. This has been going on for centuries. The fact that we are finally bringing it to light is not dismissing the experiences of men who have suffered these indignities as well.

[Mediumsizedhand]

30. Any man harassed and taking it forward can thank all the women ahead of him that

put themselves out there along with the feminists fighting for them.

[Jim Beard]

32. Times change and the amount of tolerance society has for some issues chances......

Since I am 70, I can remember mainstream publications with cartoons of the boss chasing the secretary around the desk.

[Mediumsizedhand]

33. Yes. I do not get the point though.

[Jim Beard]

39. What might seem permissible in the past and been made "Light of" have

changed to this day and time as being a serious problem and no longer needs to be made into comic strips. It was not serious then but it is now.

[Mediumsizedhand]

40. It was serious then, just ignored. Through awareness from women and feminists, it is now taken

more seriously and still the patriarchy is well protected. Men who are harassed will benefit from the work and tears of women and girls of the past, and feminists.

[Mediumsizedhand]

21. Women/girls being abused has always been minimized in the past, today and will be in the future.

For it to happen to so many, so often and almost unheard of for there to be any sort of repercussion for the abuser is evident how unimportant it is to so many. So while I am on anyone's side who is abused, I have to ask why we are arguing this from the position that it is addressed when our girls and women are sexually molested, assaulted, harassed or abused while not addressed if a man is abused?

The way it is being argued is as if abusers are actually punished or suffer retribution. That is mostly not the case, either.

So, lets not create a false scenario to stand with men who are abused, too.

It is wrong to use power to sexually harass. It is hard for either gender to come forward for many different reasons. Most abusers are not punished regardless of the gender.

[pnwmom]

22. I think the number of female harassers taken to task is probably proportionate

to the number of male harassers taken to task.

A lot more men engage in these behaviors, so a lot more are "taken to task."

[procon]

10. Did you make a formal complaint?

Most women don't, either. I suspect the reason for their silence, in both men and women who are victims of seual harassment, is the same. Until companies actually enforce their sexual harassment policies, and make the workplace a zero tolerance zone, nothing will stop it.

[tymorial]

14. Abuse victims, regardless of gender, stay silent for the same reasons

Shame and fear. The reasons and external forces which promote those emotions may differ due to circumstance, gender, race but all fear:

not being believed, feeling victimized further, fear of losing our identity and confidence, loss of safety and the ultimate fear.. being told it was our fault.

[Oneironaut]

19. Usually, imo, the perceived benefits of speaking out are far outweighed by retaliation.

Take Weinstein, for example, and O’Reilly. Those men lorded over their kingdoms with an iron fist, threatening to destroy any victims who would speak out. Imagine going up against your Senator, or even the President. The media crucifies every part of your life, you get cameras shoved in your face, every wacko out there wants to kill you, and you feel attacked every second of the day. It’s a 99.9999% vs .0001% lop-sided battle.

A boss can be a scaled down version, but the fear is the same. Most people would rather grasp whatever normalcy they can. Those brave victims who speak up are truly fearless. I can completely understand not saying anything, and I would most probably stay silent myself.

I have been harassed before and did not speak up. Those who do are far braver than I will ever be.

Sexual harassment is so common, and yet nobody talks about it. We go after people in the media for it, but what about everyday life? I doubt sexual harassment against men is even rare (despite being mostly against women). We as a society actively discourage speaking up, and this needs to change.

[nolabear]

12. Decades ago...

You’re right, but women face it daily. The only time it stops is when you become invisible.

I’m sorry you had that happen. You got a tiny dose of a nightmare most women live and most men don’t.

[Hortensis]

15. GOOD news for you, Archae. It ISN'T.

Anti-discrimination laws meant to protect women (and other "minorities" ), have been used from the very beginning by white males, angry at potentially losing their advantages, against them. And by non-white males against women. By claiming discrimination and sexual harrassment, of course.

During a low point of my work life, when the end of the cold war crashed the real estate market in California, I traded real estate appraising (when I was accepting assignments from Santa Barbara to the north, to the edge of San Diego county to the south and into San Bernardino County in the desert to keep busy) for...transcribing Internal Affairs depositions for one of the two largest police departments in the nation. A friend got me the job.

In any case, I got lots of stories out of what was also one of the dirtiest departments in the nation, though perhaps not more than typical for its size. But on point for you, I learned that any women who rose to a position coveted by men was at grave risk of being charged with sexual harassment, or violation of any other regulation or standard that could conceivably be turned on her. A harassment-by-boobs claim (while examining information on computer screens) was typical. Supposedly a woman who had risen to lieutenant was always hanging her boobs on the shoulder of an officer who worked under her, causing him great distress.

Although it's been a while now, I'm absolutely certain that has not really changed. All large institutions have HR rules and procedures that can be turned on those they're meant to protect, and undoubtedly are, not just government bureaucracies.

[TexasBushwhacker]

16. Women don't always get off scot free

There have been some cases of female teachers being prosecuted and convicted for having sex with their underage male students.

In the workplace, it's less common because women are less likely to be in positions of power. I can imagine that harrassment is difficult for men to report, just like it is for women. But I can see how male victims might get less sympathy.

[LisaL]

24. But they usually don't get much time.

[Oneironaut]

17. In the patriarchy, men are assumed to be the chaser and women the chasee

Even our legal system is marred by dogmatic patriarchical stereotypes. The patriarchy is harmful to both men and women.

I’m sorry nobody took you seriously, or you felt speaking up would be useless. Only when we shed the old patriarchal ideas in our society and favor true equality will this behavior become less prevalent.

[left-of-center2012]

23. I knew of something similar

I worked a place in 1990 where we had a woman supervisor.
She and I got along fine, but then I heard another male employee had filed a sexual harassment case against her.

I and others were questioned, but I had no info; although there was talk that seemed to back up his version.
(People had overheard her commenting on his cute butt, etc.)

He ended up quitting and about six months later she was let go.

[Tobin S.]

25. Why are you posting this, Archae?

Let the women through. Let the black people through. Let the gay people through. Let the Latinos through. Just let them take over the whole works. We white men have had our say since the founding of the country and we have totally fucked it up. I'm sure they'll be happy to let us keep our jobs. Let's let them have the power.

[JenniferJuniper]

26. Exactly.

Women face abuse and harassment throughout their lives.

I know men can be abused and harassed in the workplace as well. But it's not the sort of epidemic we're talking about. At all.

[Throck]

27. It's a twisted irony.

Nobody would believe a person of power would do that to someone of the male gender.

[Jim Beard]

31. OK, I have been holding back but now I am saying it....as a Democrat.

How many women defended Bill Clinton when he hid in a closet with an intern? The women of Move ON . Org were hug defenders.

It isn't right and I don't give a damn who it is.

Do any of you have a name for Bill Clinton. I like Bill but he had a problem with keeping his pants zipped. Should we blame Monica?

[Squinch]

34. Monica was a consenting partner. Do you understand the difference?

Would you like someone to explain it?

[Jim Beard]

37. Yes I do know the difference but they were a few others that said it wasn't

conceptual. It really doesn't matter if it was conceptual because the boss always has the upper hand. Many a feminist will agree with me.

[Squinch]

38. No. It wasn't conceptual. It was actual. They had sex. But it WAS consensual.

[nolabear]

42. *snort!

[Jim Beard]

44. Warning to the Boss: Think of Having Sex with Your Employee as the Same as Incest!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-viscusi/warning-to-the-boss-think_b_311413.html

Whether it’s consensual or not, it doesn’t matter. Boss-employee sex always ends up bad and it’s wrong. There’s an interesting point made in the recent book, High on Arrival, by Mackenzie Phillips, who claims to have allegedly had a consensual, sexual relationship with her father. Consensual or not, it’s wrong.

There are two separate questions I am often asked on these talk shows. The first one we covered—is it wrong for a boss to have sex with a subordinate, even if it is consensual? You now have my opinion—bosses, take my advice, think of it as incest.

[Squinch]

45. You and some random guy think sex between consenting adults is wrong. That doesn't make it so.

But if you really feel that way, you should feel free to abstain from consensual sex with people who work for you.

[moriah]

49. Or if your company feels that way.

Often times clauses for reporting a potential conflict of interest make the consequences fall on the higher up, not the subordinate.

I've worked as an assistant lead to my team lead, who I was dating. We'd been dating when offered the positions, disclosed, they said it was fine. We made a rule that work discussion stopped the moment we got out of the car and could only start again when we were driving to work for our next shift. We made it work for that project.

But it was still awkward as hell years later when we were working for different companies but still taking care of the same client and we split up.

Honestly, I just recommend you don't get your sex where you get your paychecks. Whether they're your subordinate or not. Avoids a lot of drama. But sometimes people have to learn things the hard way...

[Squinch]

53. Saying it can cause awkwardness and drama when it ends is a far cry from saying

it is wrong.

I agree that the former can happen. I don't agree that the latter is true.

And this sub-thread began because the poster said Bill having sex with Monica was similar to the harassment the OP described. Which is not the case.

[lapucelle]

52. Isn't it Jimmy Carter who had conceptual sex

when he admitted in the Playboy interview to having lusted after women in his heart?

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1859513_1859526_1859518,00.html

[Squinch]

54. Sometimes we all have conceptual sex, don't you think?

[lapucelle]

55. And I've heard that some people even have it

while they're in the middle of having consensual sex.

[Orrex]

57. Sex begins at conception!

Whoa.

[Squinch]

58. Whoa is right!

[JI7]

46. Clinton was investigated and only consensual relationships were proven

[bettyellen]

48. She initiated it by flashing him. So he was not the agressive one ... and in a sense, she had the

Upper hand as well- she could and did him into very big trouble over it. She knew he was married, but she didn't give a shit. Am I supposed to? I can't say I give a shit.

[Mediumsizedhand]

50. She was an adult woman making her choice. I think Bill is a piece of shit pertaining to this

part of his life. too. I would have so been with Hillary if she kicked him to the curb. She didn't. Her choice. But, I certainly do not respect Bills choice either. I thought it horrible just on what he put Hillary and Chelsea thru.

[bettyellen]

51. Oh I agree- it's not that she was a real victim. It was her gambit to show him her thong....

And she succesed in getting what she wanted. I don't know if she was naive enough to think he'd leave his marriage for her, but she was stupid enough to tell that Linda Tripp asshole. Her own friends exploited her more, in my opinion.

[kcr]

35. What was your boss fired for?

[Squinch]

36. Did you report the harassment? If so what happened?

There is no judgment in the question. I have been harassed and not reported it because I needed the job. But I am curious how it went down in your situation.

Obviously if you didn't report it, nothing could be done. Unfortunately, if you were to be treated like most women and you DID report it, nothing likely came of it.

It's a hard, hard path but it is the same for men and women, and no, it is not only women.

[NightWatcher]

41. (Giggles) You said "Head manager"

Hi, I'm 14

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

47. I have been harassed by numerous women over my career

Some superiors and some not.

I have never said anything other than "I'm not interested" because I know I would be made a laughing stock if I did. And when I have seen women get in trouble for sexually harassing men it was because another woman brought the issue to management's attention.

Men do not find much sympathy in these situations and when their harasser is another man they just find themselves accused of homophobia.

[irisblue]

56. Archae, men also sexually harass and sexually abuse other men. It is NOT only women. nt

[LanternWaste]

60. Seems irrational to project your own experience as indicative of the whole.

Seems irrational to project your own experience as indicative of the whole.

No doubt, you'll supply the objective, peer-reviewed numbers of proportional responses to support your allegation.

Of course, were I to advertise myself as a skeptic, yet lacking objective evidence, I'd simply consider it Magic Thinking.