General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsdisillusioned73
(2,872 posts)the left needs to employ one of the rights favorite terms.. forget "political correctness" - Nazis haven't earned it
dalton99a
(81,475 posts)Turning the other cheek is suicide.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)bdamomma
(63,845 posts)This is our house, he needs to goooooooooooo!!!!
Efilroft Sul
(3,579 posts)Gothmog
(145,176 posts)Nazis are an existential threat to many of my friends. Fuck them.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Dr. King and Ghandi for two.
When the numbers are on our side, as they are, the only thing that permanently beats violent bigotry is non-violence.
Meeting them with violence makes them grow.
If we had fewer numbers, I might think differently, but we vastly outnumber them.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I'm not suggesting we go out and gun them down by any means.
But we've seen our ability to defeat them at the ballot box eroded by gerrymandering, disenfranchisement, and apathy. We MUST be willing to do what's necessary to ultimately stop them. Make no mistake. This isn't 1968. Our enemy is very sophisticated.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)it," and will bring others to their side.
Right now when they say, "Both sides do it," they are patently ridiculous. If we meet them with violence, they will no longer be ridiculous.
Nonviolence is the only thing that will work here.
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Like I said, I don't suggest we instigate violence, but we should set ourselves up to be victims, either.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)illegitimate, that they are vastly outnumbered, and that their methods and beliefs will never be accepted in our country.
And the only way to send that message is through non-violence.
And sadly, it is possible that some of us will be victims if we are to prove that we really believe that message. I know that nonviolence is the more difficult course. It takes more courage. And I know that every one of those Nazis and Trump(R) deserve to have their heads cracked open. But we can't say that their beliefs and methods are disgusting to us while emulating their methods.
moriah
(8,311 posts)If we are going to preserve the right to protest, we have to do it peacefully. And sadly, the quality of organization for dealing with protest against a regime that thinks you're more than a pest has deteriorated. I haven't seen any jail solidarity trainings being offered, very few legal observers from the NLG, etc, and we NEED those again.
There have always been moles in every protest group who instigate violence. That's why the number one rule must be that publicized, videotaped martyrdom is the PR tool that works best. "Direct nonviolent action" is the only illegal thing people should be doing, preferably not even destruction of property without a significant meaning behind it (the guy who has run over two Ten Commandments monuments doing them in the dead of night is offensive but didn't hurt anyone and was directed at a specific violation of the Constitution is very different from a person plowing into a crowded protest deliberately to hurt or kill people).
It should be policy for any affinity group or organization that any person suggesting violence is expelled, and that be placed prominently in the materials provided or spoken clearly at the first meeting and those who don't agree should not hear anything about any planned "direct nonviolent action". Whether they are just too hotheaded or are a plant paid for now by the same people paying for the Planned Parenthood "stings" (one person agitating for violence during planning for the Women's March was found to be tied to those people), or as it used to be and are "just the government"....
The very right to protest is being threatened by people perceived as liberals doing violence during protests. Trump is targeting every possible part of the First Amendment he can. We have to try to prevent it by absolutely condemning violence, at EVERY level, from us sitting around talking about it, to large organizations, to smaller affinity groups. No one should plan a "direct action" that involves lawbreaking worse than sitting in front of something to be dragged off, or blocking of roads for a very important reason (the Native American-led protests about the pipeline), unless they're doing it OFFline.
We have the Gungeon for a reason, though, and by the time any President crosses too many lines there are people who will work together, even if they fail, to stop it. That's when the Gungeoneers would mobilize themselves, without being asked, to remind everyone on their gun forums that the Second is supposed to defend the First, whether it's by pretending to be a Libertarian sick of things or playing it straight.
Better to not play directly into Trump's hands by allowing any discussion of violence unless he starts trying to revoke FCC licenses or other obvious, proven, direct attacks on the ability of the press to continue writing, or the ability for a nonviolent protest to happen at all (rather than merely provoking by scheduling delats, etc).
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)And then I hit back.
NEVER AGAIN.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)Trump(R) or in opposition to him today?
AllyCat
(16,184 posts)Orrex
(63,208 posts)That way your karma will be clean, and I'll get to experience the joy of punching two Nazis.
Thanks!
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Orrex
(63,208 posts)He maintained an arsenal of firearms expressly for purposes of self defense.
As for Gandhi, there's always his letter to Hitler:
Friends have been urging me to write to you for the sake of humanity. But I have resisted their request, because of the feeling that any letter from me would be an impertinence. Something tells me that I must not calculate and that I must make my appeal for whatever it may be worth.
It is quite clear that you are today the one person in the world who can prevent a war which may reduce humanity to the savage state. Must you pay the price for an object however worthy it may appear to you to be? Will you listen to the appeal of one who has seliberately [sic] shunned the method of war not without considerable success? Any way I anticipate your forgiveness, if I have erred in writing to you.
I remain,
Your sincere friend
M.K.Gandhi
Non-violence did not stop Nazis from exterminating 6 million human beings, nor Stalin from killing 7 to 10 million.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)And again, we vastly outnumber them. That was not the case in Germany or Russia.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)Why, exactly, do you think he owned them? Elk hunting?
Why did he seek a concealed carry permit?
How, exactly will our numbers stop them? Please be specific.
Doxxing these fuckers is great, but once violence has begun, doxxing and public shaming won't stop them.
If I some day encounter you on the street, and you're being slowly beaten to death by an assailant, would you prefer that I stand by nonviolently, so that the force of my nonviolent presence shames your assailant into submission?
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Suggesting that he did is disrespectful.
Doxxing and public shaming are the only things that will stop them.
If we are marching together and I am beaten, I hope you and I can muster a tenth of the courage of, say, John Lewis. I hope you will drag me away and take my place in the line.
Because what better way is there to show the evil of the people with the clubs?
Coventina
(27,115 posts)If your violence prevents a greater crime from being committed, then it is necessary.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)That is more or less exactly my stance. I abhor the initiation of violence, but violence to stop greater violence is 100% fine with me.
nazi's no nothing else.
trying to "turn the other cheek" with these assholes will get you punched in the face.
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)Orrex
(63,208 posts)Or maybe "repo'ed."
I abhor the initiation of violence, but a violent response to greater violence is a-ok with me.
I seriously doubt that I would be jailed for punching two Nazis in self-defense.
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)You've just now mentioned 'in self-defense'. Glad you clarified it.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)That was unclear of me.
As for the see/punch bit, I hoped that it was clear from context that this was hyperbole. That's how I took the discussion, anyway. Perhaps this was unclear as well.
My bad.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Shake hands with a Nazi, talk sensibly to him, and let him see the error of his ways as he admits his indiscretions.
Let us know how that goes!
Squinch
(50,949 posts)show up with 5000. We respond to their violence with non-violence, but we give no ground.
Meeting their violence with violence will legitimize them, legitimize their claims that "both sides do it," and it will make them grow.
Meeting their violence with non-violence shows them for the evil they are and makes them shrivel.
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)linuxman
(2,337 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)See a Nazi, vote against the Nazi.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)This is how civil wars are started.
And when it is over and they have stolen the whole country, we can say, "Wow, someone stole the whole country, but we were right to fight." No thanks. #ImpeachNow
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Squinch
(50,949 posts)We stand up to their violence with non-violence and our massively greater numbers and we make their evil obvious. We win.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)I shall try to hold in my pre-determined biases while I politely listen to what this man has to say....
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)So it is upon us whether we choose to promote it or not.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)snort
(2,334 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)GusBob
(7,286 posts)Great old chap! I can guarantee 'peace in our time'
askyagerz
(776 posts)Would roll over in his grave if a didn't punch a Nazi that was spewing his shit in front me. We have been at war with these idiots a long time now. Tired of all the calls to do this peacefully. This isn't like the civil rights movement where the few have to bring change to the entire system through peaceful demonstrations. The Nazis are seriously outnumbered and just need to be ran the fuck out of town just like all of our older generations would have done. They are equivalent to a bunch of boys playing war games who just never grew up. Spank their asses and move on...
B2G
(9,766 posts)It might get you arrested and make you feel better, but it solves nothing.
mythology
(9,527 posts)If your response to merely seeing somebody you disagree with is violence, the difference between you and what you hate gets very small morally and ethically. Nazis are bad because some percentage of the commit violence and to show how wrong that is, you advocate committing violence whether or not the particular nazi in question committed violence, much less was committing violence at that moment that would morally justify retaliatory violence.
Just because my biological dad was an abusive asshole who sometimes hit me for no reason wouldn't justify me going and hitting him now.
snort
(2,334 posts)they slaughtered millions. They'll do it again.
askyagerz
(776 posts)And they were all justified. Punching a Nazi talking about hurting people you love is no different then stopping someone in the middle of beating a woman. These people only know violence. They think thats their advantage on us. They are wrong. The best way to stop a bully is show them you're willing to fight back
This clown understands now. Typical bully full of threats and cheering the death of the the anti protesters yesterday.Today a crying baby just wanting peace.. Fuck those bully assholes.
https://t.co/PmYfN9c69v
progressoid
(49,988 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)It's illegal to hit someone for words. It's actions that count. Like a march, decked out in fighting gear, shouting anti-humanity slogans in a local community, for the purpose of antagonizing the community.
IronLionZion
(45,433 posts)We wouldn't be talking about it here or on talk shows and forums and dinner table conversations. I know this because there have been many nazi rallies like this around the country since the election they didn't get much attention. Violence gets the headlines.
Gandhi and MLK's nonviolence is promoted by the people who revise and rewrite history to benefit them. They don't like us knowing about the tremendous influence of people like Malcolm X, Black panthers, Nat Turner, Mangal Pandey, and others who were a bit more active in their protests in ways that scare the right people in the right ways
India's first war of independence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857
melman
(7,681 posts)But in real life punching people can get you arrested and/or seriously hurt or worse.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)In 1920
Wolf Frankula
(3,600 posts)Shoot a Nazi. "When in doubt, shoot a fascist. If certain, shoot two." Gamir Ulibarri.
Wolf
liquid diamond
(1,917 posts)I'm tired of people defending these assholes at DU no less. I love that clip of Spencer getting sucker punched. Shit never gets old.
Beartracks
(12,809 posts)==============