General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI confess I don't know what other countries do re air traffic control. Anyone?
Boy, he's the happiest guy about monopolies I've ever seen.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,111 posts)It has not always worked perfectly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberlingen_mid-air_collision
onenote
(42,911 posts)Privatization of ATC is not in and of itself a bad idea. Our ATC lags behind the privatized systems in a number of countries. What is important is whether it is subject to effective oversight and adequate protections for the workers.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,111 posts)(not in the midair itself but as a lawyer for one of the parties involved) - the local controller had lost sight of an incoming aircraft and forgot to track it on their new D-BRITE radar; it was simple human error. What I worry about is whether privatization would place profits over safety, as seems to have happened in the Skyguide situation. If they understaff facilities and/or kill the unions, which wouldn't surprise me, safety could be compromised. Our ATC system needs updated equipment (and we don't have it because for years the GOP hasn't adequately funded the FAA) but the training, skills and overall system is probably the best in the world.
The other concern is whether charging pilots or airlines for ATC services would increase the cost of air travel - and it would probably crush general aviation, or result in more accidents because GA pilots would avoid filing flight plans or using flight following.
Major Nikon
(36,828 posts)I flew into Canada and after only staying there for 3 days I was charged about $100 for what would be free in the US. All of that was VFR, and I'm sure it would have been more had I flown IFR. I flew into a few airports that were listed as uncontrolled, but had a quasi controller working the radio. It was confusing and some pilots simply ignored their "instructions" and did what they want. At controlled airports ATC was completely incompetent and one controller would issue clearances that directly contradicted the previous controller. It was a complete clusterfuck and the only reason it doesn't cause more problems is because they don't move much traffic. This is the system congress wants to model the US on.
Major Nikon
(36,828 posts)Per operation the US ATC system is the most efficient and safest in the world. The US doesn't lag behind anyone. Nobody moves aircraft more efficiently.
Privatization of inherently governmental services is always a bad idea. It simply insures more overhead and less accountability.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and most complex, is in the midst of an era of unsurpassed safety. There has not been a fatal crash of a domestic passenger airliner in the U.S. in eight years."
From a Washington Post article on pros and cons of privatization: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/the-pros-and-cons-of-privatizing-air-traffic-control/2017/06/05/747debfc-4a10-11e7-987c-42ab5745db2e_story.html?utm_term=.5ad00dfb0625
But Rump pointed to Canada specifically, and I point to the reality that, much as I truly respect it and our Canadian snowbird friends in Florida, due to its northern position Canada's populations mostly cluster close to the U.S. border and their actual "air traffic control system" is, along with most else, at least somewhat dependent on ours, and the data our taxpayer dollars collect.
I wonder: Do rump and his manipuators by any chance intend to pay us ordinary American taxpayers for the extremely high-tech real-time data our air traffic controller system must have?
Wounded Bear
(58,828 posts)Apparently, they have a privatized system, or at least partially privatized. He had some good things to say about the idea, but also some caveats.
Good things: faster upgrades to tech, etc.
Bad things: higher fares, and less protection in recessions.
Not comprehensive, but worth a look if you can find the clip.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)It has just created unaccountable debt-laden "non-profit" behemoths who charge some of the highest fees in the world and have to just to cover the interest on their debt.
If you added up all the debt generated by Canada's privatized aviation entities and called it Privatizationstan it would probably rank prominently among indebted third world countries.
Aviation in Canada from about 1990 onwards is a cautionary tale, not an example.
Wounded Bear
(58,828 posts)thanks for posting. Have any hard links?
I generally have a gut reaction to fight against privatization. It's basically my default position, though I don't mind listening to rational arguments for and against. As others in the thread have said, it probably depends on oversight. I certainly don't trust any Repub admin to provide a decent level of that.
We certainly need some upgrades to our system, it remains to be seen if Trump's proposal provides that, or whether is it just another means to profitization.
erinlough
(2,176 posts)Right now part of all of our taxes go into ATC. If this goes down only the flying public will pay through their tickets. And the price should be sizable. Remember always that when privatization is mentioned the service has to make a profit, and they want to make a big one.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)That rule is true for our entire public sector ("government" .
Local, regional, city, county, state, and federal.
onecent
(6,096 posts)to End of August to see my two sons who are doctors.
I don't want to fly if Dump has ANYTHING TO DO WITH our airline...
This will be my 8th trip....I love going there....but don't trust Dump.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,111 posts)You have plenty of time for your trip. If this plan is approved (and there will be enormous opposition from airlines and organizations like AOPA) it will take years to implement.
onecent
(6,096 posts)nolabear
(42,018 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)and have modern and effective systems.
billh58
(6,635 posts)the following are annual air traffic passenger counts for 2015:
Canada: 80,228,302
Germany: 115,540,186
France: 65,039,503
UK: 131,449,680
Total: 392,257,671
===============================
USA: 798,230,000
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.AIR.PSGR
The United States runs almost twice the amount of air traffic and passengers as the other major countries combined, and privatizing the ATC system will take several years before all of the kinks are worked out, and this is only for the big air carriers. General Aviation, a large segment of the flying public is still a question, and so far AOPA (their lobbying group) is against privatization.
While privatization works (after a fashion) in smaller systems, it is totally unworkable in a large system like ours. It is just another Republican profit-making scheme for large air carriers with no consideration for the general populace, or the flying public.
30-year Air Traffic Controller here, and I still teach ATC to FAA new hires. Although NATCA, the air traffic controller's union top management has endorsed privatization, most rank-and-file controllers are against it. When it comes to a vote, I suspect that it will fail.
Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)FF45 must have a crony or two looking for a sweet gov't contract.
KT2000
(20,618 posts)is that the contracts call for a lid on CEO pay and wages for workers the same as government paid.
This is really a way of reducing wages for workers, removing benefits and especially retirement programs.
Defense contractors would be for in line for this.
Major Nikon
(36,828 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,111 posts)had skimped on personnel; allowed controllers to go on break while leaving only one to work several positions; and had taken radar and phone systems offline for repairs without telling the controller about it (he was later murdered by a Russian man whose family had been killed in the accident, although the midair wasn't really the fault of the individual controller but his employer's poor management).
A secondary cause was the Russian pilots' failure to follow their TCAS directions, but they wouldn't have been in that position in the first place if Skyguide had been properly managed.
onenote
(42,911 posts)He drank harder than almost anyone I've ever met (Jack Daniels at any time of the day or night). It scared the living crap out of us to think he was an air traffic controller, although in practice he may have been absolutely great at his job).
The point is that no system is perfect.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,111 posts)just as with pilots. The guy probably drank like a fish while he was off duty but gave himself the required 8 hours or more before showing up for work. He'd be taken off duty if he tested at .02 or more, and be subjected to formal proceedings if .04 or more - meaning he'd ultimately be given the option of rehab or resigning. I don't worry much about drunk air traffic controllers. I do worry about overworked or fatigued ones.
onenote
(42,911 posts)but maybe what seemed odd to us is what made him an effective air traffic controller!
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,111 posts)Major Nikon
(36,828 posts)Many are very hard drinkers as well, but only a tiny percentage are showing up for work under the influence given the number of reported incidents. I'd venture to guess the actually numbers are far below the average for the general population. Very few people are subject to random alcohol tests in their job.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,111 posts)but in a safety-related job. And we were also subjected to random drug and alcohol testing. It does make you think about how hard you're going to party if you have to work the next day.
Major Nikon
(36,828 posts)That's not to say there haven't been any, but none come to mind and I've been reading most NTSB reports for civil aviation in the last 30 years.
onenote
(42,911 posts)As I pointed out, he may have been a perfect ATC when on the job. It just surprised us, after watching him for a week, to find out what his job was!
Major Nikon
(36,828 posts)So imagine turning over governmental ATC to such an inept model with far higher traffic.
Europe has also killed general aviation with costs that are restrictive to all but the very rich and the system absolutely sucks. Each airport is it's own fiefdom with it's own set of rules and procedures and everywhere you go everyone has their hand out.
Now compare this to the US where our system virtually pays for itself with very little coming out of the general fund and a huge return in taxes on a trillion dollar industry (in civil aviation alone) that employs over 10 million people. Nobody moves more traffic safer and more efficiently than in the US. Only a Dunning-Kruger moran that looks like a cheeto would think it's a good idea to fuck with such a great system.
billh58
(6,635 posts)President numb-nuts and Jimmy Inhofe are trying to impose a for-profit solution to fix a non-existent problem.
nolabear
(42,018 posts)they're talking about creating one big monopoly or piecemeal privatization of different areas, air fields, whatever. Will they bid on jobs? Is striking back on the table?
And is switching from radar to GPS actually going to help stop delays? I have NO idea what he thinks would be accomplished.
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