Is Bill Maher defending pedophilia here?

[Henry Krinkle]

Or, can only men be pedophiles?

Mary Kay Letourneau, the teacher from Seattle, who is in jail, because she is in love. That's how I view it. I admit that it's unorthodox, she's 35, the boy is 14. He was younger when they started. But the big story this week...

[GUEST: -Had he been bar-mitzvahed?]

Have I?

[GUEST: -No, had he?]

...OK. But she is pregnant again. That was the story this week. This is the second child by this boy, so, basically, they are having a family, and they are keeping the mother in jail, because she won't conform to what society feels should be the perfect American family.

[...]

How can a woman rape a man?

[...]

[GUEST: You're not defending this woman, are you?]

I'm completely defending not the woman only, but the boy, as well.

[GUEST: When you were 14, would you have been able to take care of 2 kids?]

Oh, I would have been able to take care of her. [LAUGHTER.] So it's better than she's in jail?

[...]

In most of societies in human history, 14-year-olds were fathers.

[...]

Define love? If we could, we would have. But we can't. It's something that happens between two people. And these are the two people.

&t=420s

[OKNancy]

1. No because you are using the term incorrectly

Pedophilia is attraction to children who have not developed secondary sexual characteristics. This does not apply.
She was guilty of relations with an underaged boy. ( charged with rape and spent 7 yrs in prison )

[Maru Kitteh]

8. He's sure defending the hell out of kid-diddling and RAPE though.

14 years old is a kid. And diddling a 14 year old is RAPE.

[NurseJackie]

31. Yep.

[njhoneybadger]

40. Marriage legal at 14 yrs. NY, NC, AK

MA.12 for females, several states with no minimum

[Rex]

43. He was 12 when they first had relations, not 14.

It took 2 years for her to get pregnant.

[Maru Kitteh]

49. She raped him. That's why her ass went to jail.

[demmiblue]

10. She was guilty of rape. n/t

[Rex]

23. Totally.

She raped a child, but you know people like to pretend he could make his own decisions.

[Henry Krinkle]

17. Perhaps I used the wrong term...

but he's still defending, and seems to have no problem, with an adult having sexual relations with a minor (consensual
or not).

I wonder if he would defend that position if the roles of the people involved were reversed?

[Rex]

21. She had sex with a child, you used it correctly.

He was not a 'young boy' he was a child.

[kcr]

62. Don't apologize. You were right.

The Well Actuallying over this is ridiculous.

[snooper2]

2. 1962 Dodge 100 First Start In 25 Years

[MineralMan]

3. I have no idea what Maher is doing.

He's not someone I pay much attention to. However, for every case like that one where a relationship continued, there are hundreds of cases, maybe thousands, where it was simply sexual abuse, pure and simple.

Minors under the age of consent cannot consent. Period. That is the law, and it is the truth.

Anyone who attempts to defend predatory sexual assault on children is, and should be, anathema to us all.

[LOL Lib]

45. Agreed...I usually ignore Maher

Trying to play devil's advocate here, isn't consent truly what determines a rape? You said minors under the age of consent cannot consent...Period. That is where we have a problem in our country. The age of consent varies by at least 3 years (maybe more, not something I keep tabs on) from state to state. How can a child of say 15 be of "adult" mind in one state and not another? The whole subject of "adults" preying on "children" is uncomfortable to discuss, but there are no clear lines about what makes a person in their teens a "child." Assigning an age and calling it the letter of the law is the best we can do, but it seems like we could at least come to an agreement as a whole and not have differing ages by state.

[MineralMan]

52. As far as I'm aware, no state has an age of consent lower than 16 years.

Also, every state I'm familiar with has laws that protect high school students from teachers, even if they're over 18. What has changed, however, is that youngsters close in age are not charged if they have sex with each other in most jurisdictions. That was changed, because teenagers have sex with each other and are not criminals for doing so.

Adults need to leave young people alone and not exploit them sexually. In states where the age of consent is 16, more potential for abuse exists. I think the age of consent should probably be 18, except when it come to sexual activity between two people near in age, since that has always happened and always will.

Adults who prey on young people are predators. Period. Adults who have positions of any sort of authority over young people should be charged if they prey on those young people, regardless of the legal age of consent. Teacher, ministers, cops, employers, and all of thos people should be charged if they mess with anyone under the age of 18, in my opinion. After the age of 18, people are deemed to be adults, but even then, adults much older should leave them the Hell alone, in my opinion.

I don't care if high school kids have sex with each other, as long as they agree to it. My only concern is adults having sex with youngsters. That is just wrong. Leave the kids alone. That's my rule.

[Maru Kitteh]

57. I generally find anyone who "keeps tabs" on age of consent from state to state

creepy AF. But please explain what you mean when you say "isn't consent truly what determines a rape?" The law disagrees with you, so what exactly are you talking about here?

[LOL Lib]

61. Do you have some sort of reading comprehension deficit?

Seriously? I find people who twist other people's statements to be creepy. Ignore you go.

[Maru Kitteh]

70. Well I'm so glad as a brand-new member you're already so familiar with ignore!

It's a shame you couldn't just answer the question instead of jumping straight to hostile ad hominem. You're going to be a real valuable member of the community.

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

4. Bet he loses his show

Smh

[ismnotwasm]

5. That was a mess

There were a lot of factors in play, including culture and gender --the couple is still together. Nothing negates the fact that it was child rape. They have daughters now--older than Villi was when Mary Kay abused him. They have made a lot of money of their story--which is probably for the best as Villi had a hard time functioning for a few years.


I don't like Mahar--I think he's a flat out sexist--but I don't think he was trying to defend pedophillia

[Maru Kitteh]

12. But he was defending rape.

For me that's just a full stop, right there.

[ismnotwasm]

59. Yeah that's true.

Villi---despite the relationship "working" dropped out of school, had problems with drugs and alcohol--struggled for quite a while. I think his kids saved him from total self destruction

[Maru Kitteh]

60. Rape has devastating consequences for the survivors.

That's why it's illegal.

And you're right, Maher is an ass. Yes, he can occasionally be very funny. Doesn't change the facts of the case any more than rape is illegal.

[Cicada]

80. Was the boy devastated?

It's wrong to get into such a young boy's emotional life. And 12 is very young. It might have altered his chance to develop as a normal person. But if an adult woman had screwed me when I was 14, assuming she was on birth control, it would not have devastated me. It would have greatly improved my self image and I am certain it would have improved my life. That is just a fact. But I still support it being a crime because my parents would have disapproved and because not all boys at that age are as insecure about their appeal to girls as I was. But personally I would have been extremely grateful for such a woman.

[demmiblue]

6. Most definitely yes and it was rape.

Rapists and rape apologists are the scum of the earth.

I have no idea why people like that smarmy little arsehole.

[NCTraveler]

9. "I have no idea why people like that smarmy little arsehole. "

+1

[NCTraveler]

7. Fuck Milo and his defense of pedophilia. Sick fucking right winger.

Milo is so similar to right wing Christians in so many ways.

[njhoneybadger]

11. Enough with the Maher bashing. He is not our enemy. Trump and the rethuglicans

are out to eradicate liberals.

[Maru Kitteh]

14. Enough with trying to tell others what they should talk about. Child rape and

child rape apologists deserve to be called out - no matter WHO they are.

[njhoneybadger]

22. It was a long time ago. I'm not defending Maher. This is old news.

He has been called out on it ,19 years ago. It's crazy that in New York State 14 is the legal age of marriage. That's what deserves outrage.Also AK and NC 14

[Maru Kitteh]

53. Don't give a flying fuck when it was. And she went to jail for RAPE

because she raped that kid.

You can defend child rape all over this thread as much as you want to. Doesn't change the fact that she RAPED him and went to jail for it, as every child rapist should.

[LanternWaste]

24. Your sacred cows are simply not sacred.

Your sacred cows are simply not sacred. Criticism or analysis of a media entertainer is not going to assist in the eradication if liberals. Observation is not bashing.

You're three for three, cupcake.

[njhoneybadger]

47. What is my sacred cow?

[NCTraveler]

27. As a woman I reserve the right to bash that sexist creep anytime I want.

"Trump and the rethuglicans are out to eradicate liberals."

That makes no sense. Even less when being used as a reason to "LEAVE MAHER ALONE!!!!!"

[skylucy]

36. +100 I agree. Good grief. The Maher bashing is getting really old. If they don't like

him, then they don't have to watch his show.

[kcr]

63. Aw, don't like it when child rape apologists get bashed? Well, too bad.

You can't stop it.

[yallerdawg]

13. If you think Bill Maher is a prick...

the show is called "Politically Incorrect" and his intent has always been to prick.

[Lil Missy]

15. From 19 years ago.

Really had to dig for that one.

As I recall, Mary Kay Letourneau was bipolar and had a husband and 3 or 4 kids of her own. She spent some time in jail over this too.

As far as the context you refer to in this particular clip, I don't think there is an easy answer. I'm not sure myself, other than I'd be opposed to any sexual abuse, to an underage child, be they male or female.

[Rex]

16. She engaged in sexual relations with a child.

That is the definition of pedophilia. Despite some other peoples incorrect understanding of the term.

[OKNancy]

18. look it up using a scientific source

I have a scientist's definition. It's important to use terms correctly.
All I'm doing is asking people to use the correct terminology.

[Rex]

20. The key word is 'child' of which he was one and not a young male like you said.

Sorry but words have meanings.

[kcr]

64. Where is your scientific source that claims 12 year olds aren't children?

I'll wait.

[OKNancy]

66. that isn't what I wrote

I wrote that pedophia is attraction to pre-pubesent children.

[kcr]

67. Then why are you arguing?

He was 12 when that relationship began. So it does appear that you are indeed saying that.

[Ezior]

25. Pedophilia is having sex with a child before puberty

So, since she got pregnant, it probably wasn't pedophilia. Or maybe they also had sex before that, when the boy was even younger, then that might have been pedophilia.

Still, it's illegal in the US. And for a good reason (I doubt a 13 year old kid is old enough to know the consequences and give consent reliably).

BTW the age of consent is 14 years in Germany. But having sex with 14 or 15 year olds could still be illegal if someone (e.g. parents or the child) can prove that the kid is/was not ready to give consent. Once you're 16, you can have all the sex you want with whoever you want (but not <14 year old kids, and only if the other guy/girl agrees of course).

[Rex]

26. Yes they had sex when he was a child.

So she is a pedophile. Another country is not really relevant to the laws in America.

[bravenak]

33. No. She is a statutory rapist.

Prepubescent rape is pedophilia. I know the difference because... You know how I know. Experience. Fucks you up regardless, but pedophilia is seriously more damaging internally.

[Rex]

35. Sorry but 12 is still just a child.

Boy or girl. I was raped when I was 10. I guess people are going to tell me I should have known.

[bravenak]

38. I was raped at five.

Ten would have been easier physically to deal with. That's still pedophilia. Twelve is statutory rape.

[Rex]

41. So the magic number is between 10 and 12?

They had sex for 2 years before she got pregnant. I can see her feeling like she was in love with the boy, but I am not sure a 12 year old can tell you what love is in the same way an adult can.

I had no idea what was going on, I thought they were going to kill or hurt me. I was terrified.

EDIT - I cannot imagine being 5 and having that happen. We both been through some horrible shit way too early in our lives imo.

[bravenak]

44. Yep.

Fucked up, but it is what it is. Hell, I think twelve year olds can still marry in some states. I was just happy to make it out alive, it was after Adam Walsh had gotten murdered, about six or seven years after and that was all I knew about what happens to kids when a bad man gets you, I never told until years later. He was in jail for raping some boy down the street and then me and the other kids told too. Fucked up. He died in prison years and years later. Aids, no surprise there. He probably got it from raping somebody.

[Rex]

46. Jesus bravenak!

A serial rapist! I doubt there is much of a leap for one like that to become a serial murder!

Glad you made it out alive!

[bravenak]

51. I said the same shit

Folks like that ever change. I felt worse for his little brothers than for myself. We all knew...

[ProfessorGAC]

19. No. Not Seeing A Defense

Seeing a reaction over the hyperenforcement of the letter of the law, not the spirit.

We can disagree on whether there was prosecutorial overeach, but i'm not seeing any defense of pedophilia here.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

28. Whatever the correct term for it it -- he is definitely defending the indefensible!

[Lanius]

29. No, not pedophilia, but it could be argued that he's defending sexual assault of a minor

by saying teenage boys can't be raped. It's sexist, IMO, but more than a few men think that way (that boys and men can't be sexually assaulted because, I guess, we're just walking penises, heh).

[bravenak]

30. It was statutory rape, not pedophilia.

Anyone raped prepuberty knows the difference. I know I certainly do. And she did time and I think she got off easy. But men get away with raping five year old girls and only get probation so..... Bill is a shithead and always was.

[Rex]

34. They boy was 12 years old.

Is that young enough to be a child?

[bravenak]

37. That is an adolescent, a preteen

They have the necessary hormones to create a child. Girl of twelve can have babies, my grandna had her first at twelve. Five year olds cannot procreate except in extreme cases. Nepiophilia would be sexual interest in babies and toddlers, pedophilia in preadolescents/children, and statutory rape is when dealing with teens and preteens who have hit puberty.

[Rex]

39. Is not a pre-teen a child?

I guess I am biased. You know how it goes. She was having sex with him for two years, so it doesn't sound like he 'developed' until age 14.

[bravenak]

42. No. I wish we did consider them children

But we don't. I remember hitting sixth grade and realizing my friends had been having sex over the summer. Everybody got hormones around fifth grade and started developing. I remember the case because I was his age and in the same grade. One of my friends got pregnant in sixth grade and had her baby before we graduated. Her mom adopted him. Her baby daddy was in eight grade. That's why 12 year olds are not considered children for the purposes of sexual activity in the same way a six year old is. It's still rape and still wrong, it is just labeled differently.

[StevieM]

87. I have mixed feelings about the grandparent adoption of the baby.

On one hand I am glad that the child was not separated from his natural mother. And I am glad that she did not have to part with him.

On the other hand, I don't see why the girl could not have remained the boy's mother while her mom raised her grandchild.

I hope she was allowed to nurse her baby if that was what she wanted. I cannot imagine that she suddenly just regarded him as her brother, and nothing more.

I am surprised to hear that you knew multiple kids who were having sex at age 11. I can only think of one person I ever knew who had sex at that young of an age.

[kcr]

65. You are wrong. 12 year old boys are pre-pubescent n/t

[bravenak]

69. My husband certainly wasn't. He was absolutely sexually mature and had facial hair.

Most twelve year old boys can get a woman pregnant. As did the subject who was raped by his teacher. Were he prepubescent, it would have been much more difficult to impregnate her.

[Gothmog]

32. I stopped watching Maher a long time ago

[Nevernose]

73. The clip is 20 years old

So you might have already seen it

[StevieM]

48. What MKL did was wrong, and she deserved to go to jail. But it was also wrong that her ex-husband

did not bring her children to visit her at the prison for many years. It did a lot of damage to them and their mother.

[liquid diamond]

81. Why was he wrong for keeping his

kids away from a fucking rapist?

[StevieM]

84. Because children should be allowed to see their parents and have a relationship with them, no matter

what that parent has done wrong, unless the parent has somehow harmed the child.

There is no law that says that a parent who commits a crime will have their parental rights terminated. And it would be a catastrophe if there was.

MKL needed to be punished for her actions. A prison sentence was that punishment. Her children did not deserve to be punished further by being denied access to their mother.

The mother of the boy she violated brought the children she bore from him to visit her in prison. The boy was not allowed to see her until he turned 18 and asked that the restraining order be lifted. So his mom made sure that her grandchildren saw their mom and got to receive her love.

I am not in any way defending MKL's actions. They were wrong. But children have a right to a relationship with their parents, even ones who have done bad things.

[liquid diamond]

86. Even for rape?

I'm done with you. Enjoy your evening.

[Citrus]

50. Technicalities

Yes, it's true that for mental health professionals, pedophilia is defined as sexual attraction/action with prepubescent children. In most cases I defend technical meanings and definitions, but language is organic and fluid and not everyone can be expected to know the finer points of the DSM. So it's also true that it's okay for non-professionals to use the term colloquially.

But, and it's a big but!, even diagnosis is fluid. Someone who only pursues 14-year-olds who meet certain criteria can be diagnosed as a pedophile. No diagnosis, particularly in mental health is static and inflexible. It's helpful to know the guidelines, but it's also helpful to know they're guidelines, not absolutes. (Although insurance companies and the like would disagree.)

In this discussion, it's about an episode that played in 1998. I don't know what Maher's real opinion is, and neither does anyone else. He's a provocateur who loves stirring the shit pot. This makes him something of a joke, which he doesn't see about himself. Once in a while he makes good points, but when you (Maher) seem to hate everyone and everything, it all gets lost in a fog of bullshit. He's a mean-spirited jerk who gets it right only occasionally.

It's also important to remember, as already mentioned, that Letourneau's victim was 12 when the sexual contact began. He was in 6th grade, and she had also taught him when he was in 2nd grade. Is/was she a pedophile? We don't know. We don't know if there were other victims because boys seldom come forward. We don't know if she has continued the behavior. All we can go on is public information and assume that he was her only victim. But let's be honest...someone who is sexually attracted to children, regardless of age, has a whole host of problems that make her/him dangerous.

Yes, women can be pedophiles. Yes, males can be raped.

(An aside about Maher: I know someone who dated him long enough to get caught up in his charisma and then to realize what a total ass he was. She describes him as "a very small man with very small views and, essentially, a Napoleon complex". She's a professional comedian with a solid career in stand-up.)

[meadowlander]

54. He's questioning the appropriateness of the label

in these specific circumstances. I don't think that's the same thing as defending.

I think it was statutory rape and that jail time was appropriate.

I don't think it was pedophilia unless there were other examples of her being attracted to underaged kids.

There's a difference between being serially attracted to kids under 18 and a contributing part of that attraction being their age, and being attracted to one kid and then marrying them, having six kids and staying together even though the "kid" is 33 now.

I think that's what Maher is driving at, although he's dead wrong about women not being able to rape men/boys.

[geek tragedy]

55. no, but he is defending statutory rape nt

[LisaM]

56. Bill Maher is an unpleasant person. I saw him live once.

It was part of a season series (the other events were the cast of "A Mighty Wind" singing their songs from the movie, Al Franken and Molly Ivins, Michael Moore, and the movie "Teddy Bear's Picnic" about the Bohemian Grove crew).

Anyhow, the Bill Maher event was definitely the low point of the entire series. He's a child. He talked about sex constantly, to a point where it was creepy and people were edging back in their seats. He bashed women. He was crude and used obscenities nonstop. Of the entire audience - and this seems important - the only people who enjoyed it were two teenaged boys who were a couple of rows in front of us. I'd place them as being between 14 and 16. The entire show seemed aimed at them. They laughed their heads off at the misogyny, the incessant manchild talk, the repeated sexual references, and the swearing. They were the only members of the audience who seemed comfortable.

I'd never liked Bill Maher particularly before that, but after seeing that performance, I detested him.

[Oneironaut]

58. Yes. Bill Maher is a misogynist ass.

Most people who excuse female predators do it because they have a patriarchical view of society. It's no different than if the genders were reversed.

[Skittles]

68. CORRECT

[dembotoz]

71. i like bill maher du hates him i like roger moore du hates him i like bernie du calls him names

sometimes i wonder........................

[TDale313]

77. Actually, a lot of people here like Bernie.

Not all, and there are some vocal Bernie Bashers, but shrug.

As for Maher, I'm not a fan. I agree with him on many issues, but he has always struck me as mean spirited and misogynistic. He's in many ways a shock jock. Being "Politically Incorrect" usually translates to "Let me be an asshole". That's fine, but not something I find particularly fun or admirable.

[GaYellowDawg]

83. I like Bernie a whole lot. Didn't vote for him, but I like him.

Like any other politician, I don't agree with him 100%. But I like him.

[VOX]

72. New-to-DU OP w/"Taxi Driver"-reference ID posts decades-old clip to torpedo Bill Maher...

Make of that whatever you can.

[Nevernose]

74. Hmm.

Nice catch on the name.

[Henry Krinkle]

75. 1) I've been using that name for years for everything from supermarket courtesy cards...

to sign in sheets, to petitions, to letters to the editor, etc and my address is... 154 Hopper avenue, Fair Lawn NJ, 61045.

2) Not that new. I was unable to login with my previous user name after the hack.

3) It's a legitimate question. How long ago it happened, is irrelevant.

[bronxiteforever]

76. Ask Alex Jones

[Henry Krinkle]

78. I tried, but he refuses to take my phhone calls.

[frankieallen]

79. There were a couple teachers I would of

Loved to get with when I was that age. She may be a bit nuts, but I don't think there will be any lasting damage to the boy. He got lucky, probably learned a couple things too. I can't really get outraged about this, jealous maybe, but no outrage.

[liquid diamond]

82. I notice that

many men who defend female rapists are pathetic simps who have a hard time getting sex from women. Every time a story like this comes up, you always hear several assholes ask "Where were these teachers when I was in school?" Or they'll say the boy wasn't hurt. Fuck you. Fuck any of you who justify child rape. I'm tired of double standards. I'm sick of female child rapists being defended and getting a slap on the wrist. Rape is rape is rape.

[Jakes Progress]

85. Bill Maher will defend anyone

who smokes dope, is an atheist, and can get him laid.