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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Reaction to Brexit is the Reason Brexit Happened
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-reaction-to-brexit-is-the-reason-brexit-happened-20160627Taibbi makes some excellent points here. I've been reading a lot of commentary since the referendum, and the absolute snobbishness by many of the Remain writers is painful to read.
"Ooh, too much democracy." "There are some things that the people just shouldn't be consulted about." Basically, know your place, PEASANTS! RESPECT AND OBEY YOUR BETTERS!
I'm not convinced as many are here that the Brexit vote was just 100% racism and xenophobia, and nothing else. I think the elites' (and those who fancy themselves one-day elites) reaction to the voters' popular will shows a dark, deeply disturbing, anti-democracy line of belief.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)...from the EU that had nothing to do with immigration or xenophobia.
For example, here is a planned EU rule that would have made illegal a common type of tea kettle that most UK citizens owned:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/10/eu-to-launch-kettle-and-toaster-crackdown-after-brexit-vote2/
While that is just an anecdotal example, it just shows that most that voted to exit did so because of the beaurocratic rule from Brussels was more of an issue than racism. Sure, there was a racist element to it, but most of the citizens that came from Africa and the Middle East voted to exit.
The issue is much more complicated than old, stupid racists wanted to leave because of immigration.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)Energy efficiency rules are required to meet climate change targets. Without the EU doing that the planet is stuffed. And why are you quoting a right wing rag like the telegraph anyway? Here's a clue - they lie to push their agenda, which has always been anti-EU.
Most voted because of immigration - 52% in fact, they admitted it straigt up, and that has been widely shared on this site, so no excuse for not knowing that. Xenophobic incidents are on the rise as the idiots have been given the green light - my own friend accosted this morning in a coffee shop and told to go home.
I am appalled, APPALLED, at the way so many people on du are prepared to overlook xenophobia and blame it on anything else. I am not against democracy but that doesn't mean I don't get pissed off at the idiots who vote sometimes, especially if something as trivial as the specs of a kettle is what motivates them. I just hope you're so forgiving of your fellow citizens if/when they vote in Trump, because people will do that for the same stupid reasons.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)It was anecdotal evidence. The point is that there are a large amount of UK citizens that voted to exit that did so because of the burden of rules, and not because of xenophobia. My point is that to just blanket all exit voters as racists is incorrect. So, according to your comment, then 48% did not vote because of racism.
It is easy to ignore nuance and just label every exit voter as an ignorant racist, but the truth is much more complicated than that and you are doing yourself a disservice by just keeping your blinders on that the exit voters are such. Many minorities voted to exit.
Everything doesn't always fall into simple fauxrage talking points.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)If indeed they did. I've not seen it before and you haven't provided a link. I did see the video of the stupid girl whose whole family voted out and then wanted to change her vote the next day ad she hadn't thought it would pass. I guess Africans do tend to work in the low-paid professions too so maybe they didn't want the competition from east Europeans.
And no, it doesn't mean 48% weren't xenophobic. Most ofthe reasons given could be linked to immigration as well, its just that 52% weren't ashamed to admit it.
I am not the one with blinders on. That'd be the person who thinks they know better than people who actually live in this country.
And I am not faux-raged, I am genuinely outraged that there are racist marches in my town, that my friend is accosted- physically - in a coffee shop, that my children's choices in life have just been shrunk, that Boris frickin Johnson is probably going to be pm, and that people on DU, who should be against bigotry in all its forms, are bending over backwards to defend the bigots.
Ps you haven't answered the trump question. If he's voted in, will you also defend those who voted him in?
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)The very heart of democracy is to allow the people vote the way they want. To overturn the vote of the common person is to violate everything that is democracy. I wouldn't like of a vote that has Trump winning, but the beauty of democracy is that the will of the people cannot be overturned by those that do not like the outcome of the vote.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)I'm not saying the vote should be overturned. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to be pissed off about it. And especially pissed off at people who try to make out this vote was other than what it was.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)The people that voted to exit that weren't voting because of race are pissed off by those that try to label them racist, xenophobic, and unintelligent.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)from Eastern Europe? If so that means they are most likely white, so it's hardly racism. Xenophobia, maybe, but not racism. Not that it's any better, but there are some very practical reasons for exit voters voting the way they did. There isn't enough to go around for impoverished and out of work UK citizens and it's natural that they would resent new immigrants taking up jobs and claiming resources while they are left out in the cold.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)The African, Middle Eastern and Pakistani voters.
Ex Lurker
(3,816 posts)Anyone who disagrees with the conventional wisdom is an ignorant racist.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Hopefully by Friday all the loss in the United states will be back for everyone. I know many were nervous. I told my family to relax. Looks like we will all be alright thank goodness.
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)The issues could have numbered as many as the votes themselves.
Trying to broad brush why it happened will never achieve proper answers.
Even the larger context has layers of subtlety. As for the racism or xenophobia.
Is this racism of xenophobia to not believe that a differing culture is trying to fundamentally change the fabric of society.
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/anti-gay-anti-alcohol-londons-sharia-patrol/
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/world/europe/a-climate-of-fear-widens-divisions-in-europes-migrant-crisis.html?_r=0
How much did this have an effect? It had some, and none positive.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)Valid point.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Feminists better wake up and realize that these Muslim fundamentalists want to control women like we haven't seen in...well...I don't know how far back to go for that one!
No man is going to tell me how to dress or where I can walk, and the fact that they are allowed to intimidate women like this is OUTRAGEOUS!
David__77
(23,481 posts)As for the men who counsel people on Islam-inspired morality, I have no idea.
I would not want these people in my community. I would not want conservative religious proselytizers of any stripe in my neighborhood.
He and his family and their idea of Islam came from somewhere else to Leavers though.
The secondary offshoot of his rhetoric what that Fundie Christians started counter marches to their marches.
Just an all around Fire and Brimstone, "you are going to hell" party. Noting says fun more than that.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)67% of Asians voted remain, 73% of blacks voted remain, 70% of Muslims voted remain
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)If I am wrong I will admit it, but please provide the link.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)How about you providing a link for your assertion?
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)But, your assertion regarding the racial break down of the vote appears to be right. I was wrong.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)Even though non-europeans aren't affected, it seems the racists feel empowered to act out on their impulses. Sad days.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)But, there has been a huge racist hard right moment in all of the EU nations well before the Brexit. For example, the Golden Dawn party and other admittedly NAZI parties have won seats and get s good amount of votes. This is nothing new & these racist attacks have skyrocketed since 2008.
The problem is that those in the US just found out that the EU has far right national parties and that there have been large left wing protests in every major EU city for years.
pampango
(24,692 posts)of someone named Donald in the US and his supporters.
If minorities, women and younger voters don't turn out here in November, we will elect our own Brexit (Brexit in the UK = Trump in the US).
runaway hero
(835 posts)Go to the polls, don't sit on the computer and whine!
nruthie
(466 posts)Seeking Serenity
(2,840 posts)I thought so, too.
And no one here can claim Matt Taibbi is just a far-right extremist.
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)There has a huge rise of racial/xenophobic incidents since leave won. They are going up and telling anyone who is not white English to get out of their country-and that they have gone after American expats as well.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Millions?
Thousands?
Hundreds?
A few dozen?
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)After Brexit Racial/xenophobic abuse increased [link:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/06/27/1542919/-Hate-on-the-rise-in-the-dis-United-Kingdom|
There's an account of xenophobic abuse from an American expat who was spit on plus pictures of a Spanish restaurant whose window was smashed.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)By "they" can be anything from millions to a few dozen attacks.
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)nt
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)Response to maryellen99 (Reply #4)
maryellen99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
pampango
(24,692 posts)There are things that voters should not decide: human rights, civil rights, abortion rights to name a few.
This referendum was proposed by a Conservative prime minster at the behest of the far-right faction of his party and the farther right UKIP.
That said the conservative elite won the referendum, disgusting tactics notwithstanding, and liberals and young people will have to deal with it.
Life is about to change - and not for the better. If we elect Trump the same will apply to us. You get what you pay for.
Seeking Serenity
(2,840 posts)The right to be wrong (as you or someone else would define "wrong" ?
pampango
(24,692 posts)to do what they did which why I urged liberals to 'deal with it' rather than try to reverse it. Liberals are famous for accepting reality and dealing with it. Conservatives are more infamous for denying reality and inventing an alternative one.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)I said this when all the anti-gay marriage referendums were on the agenda. It is a stupid way to make policy. If it weren't for the Supreme Court, they would still be on the books.
We elect people to represent us. In an ideal world, those people would study the issues and make decisions according to what they and their constituents want. And if they don't, they can be voted out. Of course we don't live in a ideal world, but it is still better than government by referendum.
Seeking Serenity
(2,840 posts)in Colorado to legalize marijuana was "idiotic?" Or the popular state referenda pre-Obergefell legalizing gay marriage "idiotic?"
branford
(4,462 posts)when the Scots were seeking independence...
It's not that referenda are so much a problem, rather it is the regularity in which the common folk vote the "wrong" way and don't obey the wishes of their betters among the political, academic, and very wealthy classes.
Liberals often support direct democracy as an expression of the voice of the people, particularly the marginalized, at least until they realize that everyone who disagrees with them also gets a vote (to say nothing of incidences like the UK referendum where about a third of traditional Labout voters supported Brexit).
If you only effectively support democracy when you win, you don't really believe in democracy. It reminds me of people, including a great many of my fellow liberals here and elsewhere, who claim to support free speech, and then inevitably follow it with a "but" listing all the speech they disagree with they that believe should be censored.
Hypocrisy and authoritarianism, purportedly in support of noble goals, transcends the left and right divide.
Seeking Serenity
(2,840 posts)Very well stated, indeed.
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)Jim Crow was instituted by elected officials, and were following their constituents wants.
Ireland approved Equal Marriage for all by referendum.
Checks and Balances, pretty good idea by a bunch of Rich, White, Dead Guys.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)ultimately why we keep hearing from elites that this referendum's approval was a disaster, that voters were misinformed, lied to, etc. So predictable.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)That is one of the best summations of the Brecon I have seen here on DU.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I do sometimes make sense, lol.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)Ukip is essentially libertarian, conservatives just love austerity. Turkeys voting for Christmas
pampango
(24,692 posts)those people at the top a lesson they won't soon forget. The Great Depression didn't harm the 99% did it?
Maybe Trump really is the candidate whom liberals should support. Most liberals think his election would be terrible for the economy which would cause the rich to lose a lot of money.
Brexit for the UK = Trump for the US.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Bizarre where people's minds here go sometimes.
pampango
(24,692 posts)THEY LOVE IT! They are losing lots of money in the short run but they can afford it. Once the conservative super-elites in the UK are rid of those pesky EU labor and environmental regulations (take that you liberal elites in Brussels!) they can make that money back and much more. They think long term, not short term.
Is it the liberal 'elite' who are complaining about losing money? So predictable, I suppose.
And Farage has already said that some of his campaign rhetoric was not true. Were they lies? Mere information? In the eye of the beholder, I guess.
The conservatives in the UK were smart to turn the dissatisfaction of British voters into a referendum, not on all elites (conservatives are smart way) but merely on the 'liberal elites' in Brussels with their pesky progressive rules and regulations.
Conservatives won and will refashion the UK in their image. When voters rejected "elites", conservative elites came out smiling.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)It's possible you're simply regurgitating talking points from your keepers, or even less seriously, other message boards...?
But yeah, you clearly seem to think you know everything, so I'll let you have the last word in this exchange. Cheers.
pampango
(24,692 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)That way we can make excuses for people who vote for Trump.
Ugh.
It appears that Taibbi is now simply going for click bait routines.
How useful.
To someone.
Response to Seeking Serenity (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)a nice break from the "racist xenophobic uneducated bigots duped by the press into leaving EU" talking point!
Its preposterous to sat that 55% of UK citzens are simple racist xenophobes.
pampango
(24,692 posts)There is a reason that the unions and the left supported Remain and the racist xenophobes supported Leave.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)As well as the coservarive prime minister? Looking at this as a left/right issue entirely missed the point IMO
pampango
(24,692 posts)course there were some conservatives who vote to Remain and some liberals who voted to Leave.
Nonetheless, Jeremy Corbyn and the TUC wanted to campaigned to stay in the EU and most Labour voters voted that way. Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage led the campaign to exit the EU and most Tory voters voted that way. I don't blame you for not wanting to look at it as a left/right issue.
Most UK conservatives are much happier about the outcome than most UK liberals though there are certainly outliers in both cases.
Response to pampango (Reply #59)
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TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)Patronising or what
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)runaway hero
(835 posts)the third wayers, they're always right, right? smh this is why we people voting for a guy like Donald.
People better wake before we get some of that cold soup here.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)It has everything to do with a catastrophically stupid read of what happened in the United Kingdom with the referendum. If it weren't for Donald Trump, people like Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald would easily take the prize for most astoundingly unqualified to comment on it.
runaway hero
(835 posts)Peopl take the easy road because is always about scoring the points and checking the right boxes. You have no actual idea if every single person that voted out is racist, but that's the narrative we run with.
GeorgeGist
(25,322 posts)had children.
There are times when democracy should be left to adults.
JMO
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Brexit offers a principled plunge into oblivion, and that's about it.
The result of this is going to be ruinous to the lives and careers of millions of Britons, these people weren't just going to say, "Well the people have spoken, I guess I should sod off and become a Chav."
Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #61)
Name removed Message auto-removed
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)have never happened if it went to a popular vote, including a woman's right to vote and practically all the civil rights legislation of the 60s They only people who would feel comfortable with everything being decided by a vote are those safe in the majority.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)RAFisher
(466 posts)Taibbi conveniently leaves that out. People wanted a validation of their xenophobia and they got it with this referendum.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Look at me! I'm smarter than the elites! I know the real reason why Brexit happened!
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)I sometimes write for British blogs and retailers so I keep SKY news on sometimes to pay attention to what's up.
The morning after (still just nighttime here) I watched one of the news readers have a meltdown as reality hit, chastising the labor dude and commenting in effect that the working class didn't always know what was best for itself.
I laughed my head off.
It's true in America that religion and guns cloud the heads of many of our working class. But I suspect in the Brexit case that the people felt like they were getting screwed either way, but one way was more reprehensible because the 1% benefitted from their misery.
With Brexit they get to see all off the investor class pucker up and freak the fuck out, which can be satisfying even when your own pension is in peril.
Sort of like "If you're gonna keep me down you'll have to stay down here with me."
It was a Sansa moment watching the meltdown. For people who tell the working class that money is no big deal and they should be happy to even have jobs at all, those investors sure think money's a Big Deal when it's hemorrhaging from their own pockets.
Why can't they just be happy to have jobs? Why does the pound have to be valued so high? You can't take it with you and you should be glad a robot isn't taking over your corner office....and all that neoliberal rot....lol
BTW on edit: Maybe it's better to say it was a Cersei moment. I'm certainly not in line with Brexit thought, but I get where that sort of stubborness comes from.
To all those whinging about "muh investmuhnts" all I can do is grin and say: when you show up on a thread about prison conditions or poverty or women's health I'll surely develop warm and fuzzy feelings concerning your "investmuhnts."
Just like in 2008, marginalized people say "meh." On both sides of the pond.