Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

marmar

(76,880 posts)
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:03 AM Jun 2016

Neoliberalism Will Soon Force Americans to Leave the United States





Neoliberal economic policy will eventually pressure U.S. citizens to emigrate just as it caused millions to leave Russia, the Baltic States and now Greece in search of a better life, economist Michael Hudson tells The Real News Network’s Sharmini Peries.

—Posted by Alexander Reed Kelly.


http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/neoliberalism_will_soon_force_americans_to_leave_the_united_states_20160618




147 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Neoliberalism Will Soon Force Americans to Leave the United States (Original Post) marmar Jun 2016 OP
Many of us have already been driven out of Manhattan and SF. Why not sell the whole damn country? leveymg Jun 2016 #1
The country is being sold piece by piece. The enormous debt we owe China and Saudi Arabia rhett o rick Jun 2016 #5
You know, the idea that we "owe" money to China or anyone else is a misnomer. A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #23
Not talking about sovereign debt. It's the export of jobs and the securitization of real estate leveymg Jun 2016 #45
Yes we do "owe" money to China and others. That's what selling bonds means. A Simple Game Jun 2016 #59
And China is free to sell those bonds on the open market. A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #74
And in fact the demand of China and Japan for US Treasury bonds is a good thing JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #76
Precisely A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #79
Yet here I am doubting the will of the American Government to repay it's debt to the A Simple Game Jun 2016 #87
WTF greiner3 Jun 2016 #66
And its happening in Portland OR right now. KPN Jun 2016 #18
Sadly PasadenaTrudy Jun 2016 #39
It absoultely is - Real estate is getting nutty out here. Juicy_Bellows Jun 2016 #77
Investors from China and Developers Have Ruined Our City McKim Jun 2016 #120
Same here in Silicon Valley elljay Jun 2016 #136
Canada, New Zealand and Australia Aerows Jun 2016 #2
There will be nowhere to hide notadmblnd Jun 2016 #4
Well, that was what Kissinger advocated. Aerows Jun 2016 #8
Yes, I understand she admires him greatly notadmblnd Jun 2016 #9
If that doesn't raise an eyebrow Aerows Jun 2016 #10
For those whos heads are not turned by her celebrity- it does. notadmblnd Jun 2016 #12
Getting lots of money from a campaign Aerows Jun 2016 #13
Sadly, here at DU it also raises alerts. Jackilope Jun 2016 #16
Our country is going to rue the day Aerows Jun 2016 #21
It is like watching a trainwreck. We are sheep being led to the slaughterhouse. Jackilope Jun 2016 #35
We are sheep caught in a trainwreck that was headed for the slaughterhouse. leveymg Jun 2016 #46
Bet on it. 840high Jun 2016 #110
Agreed!!!! CrawlingChaos Jun 2016 #92
Years ago I read that Kissinger was the first Jew admitted to Chevy Chase appalachiablue Jun 2016 #80
He married non-Jews elljay Jun 2016 #138
Knew he was in those circles; I'd never heard the phrase a Court Jew. appalachiablue Jun 2016 #141
Incredible, 500,000 people. Delaware's population is around 820,000, appalachiablue Jun 2016 #42
Indeed he did. Aerows Jun 2016 #43
useless eaters shanti Jun 2016 #47
Obvious who the Truly useless eaters and breathers are. eom LarryNM Jun 2016 #67
I think it was 500 million, not thousand AntiBank Jun 2016 #68
That sounds more likely, though still awful for the surplus billions of people on earth. appalachiablue Jun 2016 #73
"...at least until all valuables are stripped by predators." CrispyQ Jun 2016 #127
Don't we know it! appalachiablue Jun 2016 #139
There is no place to hide for the world's 99% probably the 99.9%. They rhett o rick Jun 2016 #14
The 1% will be quite willing and happy to give us jobs lunatica Jun 2016 #28
Well the problem with capitalism and it might be funny if not sad, is that after they take all our rhett o rick Jun 2016 #29
Well, there's that too lunatica Jun 2016 #34
or smoke enough weed. rhett o rick Jun 2016 #124
Yep, thin the herd! KPN Jun 2016 #19
This. I am convinced this is what is happening and will keep on happening. LiberalLoner Jun 2016 #50
That's a lot of real estate for half a million people and their robots to keep up, just saying'. appalachiablue Jun 2016 #69
it was 500 million not 500 thousand and it is the Geoegia Guidestones AntiBank Jun 2016 #91
fake quote popular among conspiracy theorists uhnope Jun 2016 #131
The all have strict immigration laws WhiteTara Jun 2016 #6
Yes. On my list. Aerows Jun 2016 #7
$600,000 to be more accurate. And it's a security deposit in exchange for KPN Jun 2016 #20
I've looked at Belize, Costa Rico, Guatamala and Ecuador WhiteTara Jun 2016 #27
Yeah, we're still here too ... KPN Jun 2016 #52
What about Zika virus in the southern hemisphere, and the US too appalachiablue Jun 2016 #75
time to harvest pregnancies and grow the fetus in labs to assure good health swhisper1 Jun 2016 #82
Maybe we could just find a vaccine.. whathehell Jun 2016 #116
sorry, I am writing a scifi book,but as a woman, it is easier on the body swhisper1 Jun 2016 #117
I'm a woman as well, so I can appreciate that aspect of it whathehell Jun 2016 #118
I am not a mosquito magnet WhiteTara Jun 2016 #93
What about marriage? notadmblnd Jun 2016 #38
There's that too I guess. My spouse and I are already married to one another though. KPN Jun 2016 #54
marriage has become a farce, best contract every year, since its a mans world, let him swhisper1 Jun 2016 #84
Ecuador is good Warpy Jun 2016 #53
So have you spent time in Ecuador and Uruguay? KPN Jun 2016 #55
Only on Google Warpy Jun 2016 #60
Well, here's hoping you return to good health if you haven't already. KPN Jun 2016 #142
I Have Spent Months in Uruguay Over the Years McKim Jun 2016 #121
Good to know. Have never been there. KPN Jun 2016 #143
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #102
At the risk of being blunt Aerows Jun 2016 #103
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #104
Luckily Aerows Jun 2016 #106
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #119
And go where? The2ndWheel Jun 2016 #3
A world war is coming. roamer65 Jun 2016 #11
The next war will be via the internet or equivalent. Corporations will fight each rhett o rick Jun 2016 #17
Unless you live in the sticks Aerows Jun 2016 #33
I would like to discuss this farther. rhett o rick Jun 2016 #123
I'd be interested in a thread on this topic. CrispyQ Jun 2016 #128
Clearly since we are having this discussion in the first place Aerows Jun 2016 #145
I agree. All signs point to this. KPN Jun 2016 #22
A bit of unasked for advice... Peacetrain Jun 2016 #15
Yep. Be wary! KPN Jun 2016 #24
Luck of the genetic lottery Aerows Jun 2016 #26
Where we gonna go? Octafish Jun 2016 #25
I got my eye on Uruguay. JEB Jun 2016 #30
My French is up to date. Aerows Jun 2016 #32
It's true. nt zentrum Jun 2016 #31
To where? PasadenaTrudy Jun 2016 #36
Hot humid country? You ever been to the State of Georgia in the summer? YOHABLO Jun 2016 #86
NO! lol PasadenaTrudy Jun 2016 #94
Neo liberalism is a destructive path felix_numinous Jun 2016 #37
+1 Yuge intervention and Big Tawk. We need a mega Marshall Plan appalachiablue Jun 2016 #71
Interesting. fleabiscuit Jun 2016 #40
Already Gone. nt truebluegreen Jun 2016 #41
Leave and go where? Helen Borg Jun 2016 #44
We loved our short time in . . FairWinds Jun 2016 #48
Whia Johnny2X2X Jun 2016 #49
People are talking about their actual lives, not the artificial abstractions of statisticians. earthshine Jun 2016 #56
inconvenient truth, you speak. See my post at end of thread nt uhnope Jun 2016 #130
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #51
To get a retirement visa in Thailand requires only a monthly income of $2K per month or Just reading posts Jun 2016 #61
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #62
The point is that a dollar goes much further there. Just reading posts Jun 2016 #63
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #64
A "colonialist"? Really? Just reading posts Jun 2016 #88
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #89
Please explain exactly how someone retiring in Thailand is "colonizing" them. Just reading posts Jun 2016 #90
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #96
If we can't agree on common definitions, what's the point of discussion? Just reading posts Jun 2016 #99
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #101
Thank you, that's very gracious of you. Something of a rarity in interneet discussions! Just reading posts Jun 2016 #132
Thank you rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #133
Extensive kjones Jun 2016 #137
There's something of a difference between an oil sheik and a middle class retiree. Just reading posts Jun 2016 #135
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #140
Hm....still disagree. Just reading posts Jun 2016 #144
I have a good life here in Thailand, Paka Jun 2016 #112
If I were to retire in Thailand (which is very unlikely), I would have a steady income of $45K/year. Just reading posts Jun 2016 #113
You can indeed live well on 45k US a year. Paka Jun 2016 #115
You don't want people in the US who use words like neoliberalism??? JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #78
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #83
Yeah, I agree. Let's just call it "capitalism" then........ socialist_n_TN Jun 2016 #97
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #98
IKR? Hydra Jun 2016 #109
That is what they want. Niles Ferguson actually put it in one of his applegrove Jun 2016 #57
Can't stand him, or his programs I've seen. appalachiablue Jun 2016 #72
His WW1 book was surprisingly good (assuming we're talking about Niall) Recursion Jun 2016 #95
Many more will not be able or willing to leave. Rex Jun 2016 #58
And go where? malaise Jun 2016 #65
what sucks for me is undergroundpanther Jun 2016 #70
I'm packed and renewed my passport swhisper1 Jun 2016 #81
We'll give it our earnest consideration if Trump is elected; not otherwise. Hekate Jun 2016 #85
Actually, the fleeing has already begun ... to the Pacific Northwest ... DrBulldog Jun 2016 #100
Be Prepared to Have Good Manner and Values McKim Jun 2016 #122
What a glum lot. redstateblues Jun 2016 #105
It's a holiday in Cambodia. roamer65 Jun 2016 #107
FYI for your early-leavers ... you have to be under 55 to migrate to modern New Zealand . . . DrBulldog Jun 2016 #108
Bye Felicia tandot Jun 2016 #111
K&R avaistheone1 Jun 2016 #114
Portugal. -nt- NorthCarolina Jun 2016 #125
My house is the size of a postage stamp & worth $350k. CrispyQ Jun 2016 #126
what a load of bogus codswallop. uhnope Jun 2016 #129
I can envision a brain drain Vogon_Glory Jun 2016 #134
Please go. All of you. Throd Jun 2016 #146
In fairness, when I discuss retiring in another country, it has nothing to do with politics. Just reading posts Jun 2016 #147
 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
5. The country is being sold piece by piece. The enormous debt we owe China and Saudi Arabia
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:28 AM
Jun 2016

is being used to buy corporations and property in this country.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,286 posts)
23. You know, the idea that we "owe" money to China or anyone else is a misnomer.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:37 PM
Jun 2016

Countries buy our bonds voluntarily. No one went to the Chinese central bank, hat in hand and asked for a trillion dollars (or whatever)

Those countries bought bonds of their own volition. No one held a gun to their heads. It doesn't matter who holds them either, as they pay regular interest payments to the holder and are redeemed in full when they mature.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
45. Not talking about sovereign debt. It's the export of jobs and the securitization of real estate
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:52 PM
Jun 2016

that has a lot of people upset because of declining real wages relative to cost of housing and other essentials. The Chinese can buy all the T-bills they want, so long as they aren't used to greenmail us, as the Saudis have been doing. The trade imbalance, particularly vis-a-vis China, means less US jobs and declining real wages in America except for the top 1%.

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
59. Yes we do "owe" money to China and others. That's what selling bonds means.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:11 PM
Jun 2016

But that's not the problem, we will pay back our debt to China and most others.

The problem is that our government doesn't want to pay back their debt to you, me and most other Americans for the funds they "borrowed" from Social Security. This lending of my Social Security money to the government by the way did not have "my" approval.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,286 posts)
74. And China is free to sell those bonds on the open market.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:33 PM
Jun 2016

The US Treasury is obligated to satisfy the terms of the bond indenture.

It doesn't matter who holds the bonds. It just so happens that China and Japan have a whole lot of them, but that could change tomorrow if they decided to sell them.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
76. And in fact the demand of China and Japan for US Treasury bonds is a good thing
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:39 PM
Jun 2016

Extra demand for the bonds means the prices go up and yields are lower (less interest to pay)

A HERETIC I AM

(24,286 posts)
79. Precisely
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:42 PM
Jun 2016

Bonds issued by the US Treasury are seen the world over as the safest investment security. The worldwide standard for the "Risk Free Security" is in fact, the Ten Year Note.

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
87. Yet here I am doubting the will of the American Government to repay it's debt to the
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 08:01 PM
Jun 2016

Social Security fund when it is needed. Indeed they seem to even deny that the government owes the fund any money.

KPN

(15,541 posts)
18. And its happening in Portland OR right now.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:31 PM
Jun 2016

People who have lived there their whole lives are being forced to relocate as out of state investors have driven up the cost of residential real estate such that realtors are advising as the rule of thumb is "your rent should be no more than 40% of your net income." That's just nuts!!! It used to be 20-25%!!!!!!!!!

The neo-lib message: embrace poverty, it becomes you!

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
77. It absoultely is - Real estate is getting nutty out here.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:39 PM
Jun 2016

Then they get rid of Mike and Mike! WTH is going on?!

McKim

(2,412 posts)
120. Investors from China and Developers Have Ruined Our City
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 08:01 AM
Jun 2016

Yes, Portland has been ruined by developers with the full cooperation of the current mayor and withe investors from China driving up the cost of real estate and rents. I refuse to participate and keep he rent at my rental rowhouse lower than market value. The city is filling up with obnoxiously wealthy people who flaunt their wealth, have bad manners and only care about themselves. The Oregon and Portland values are being swallowed up by greed.

elljay

(1,178 posts)
136. Same here in Silicon Valley
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 10:46 AM
Jun 2016

My neighborhood used to be a mix of blue and white collar middle to upper middle class. Now, Chinese and non-resident investors have pushed up prices so much that the older residents are taking the opportunity to sell. I now live next door to a 2+million dollar rental house with more coming up and down the block. I used to know my neighbors and we watched out for each other. Now the homes are owned by absentee landlords and temporary residents who don't spend a penny to maintain them and have no interest in developing neighborhood ties. I can't sell because I can't afford to buy anything else. Let's see what happens when the economy has its next downturn and there are lots of layoffs. There will be a lot of people who can no longer pay the 5k per month rentals. http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics?page=2

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
2. Canada, New Zealand and Australia
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:09 AM
Jun 2016

are on my research list. Apparently, the US doesn't need sane, humane decent people anymore. I'm just not cut throat enough to function in a sick society.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
4. There will be nowhere to hide
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:19 AM
Jun 2016

It doesn't matter where one goes, I believe the goal is to unleash misery globally. The only ones that will have opportunity for decent quality of life will be them and theirs.

Their plan to save the planet is to depopulate it. They'll only be to happy to watch us all eat dirt and die.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
8. Well, that was what Kissinger advocated.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:34 AM
Jun 2016

Reduce the world population to 500,000 people.

And folks wonder why I look at Hillary with a damn dubious eye.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
13. Getting lots of money from a campaign
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:17 PM
Jun 2016

will do that to you.

You will sell your own children down the river without realizing that you are doing exactly that for short term gain.

Jackilope

(819 posts)
16. Sadly, here at DU it also raises alerts.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:27 PM
Jun 2016

Here the Hillary supporters would rather not hear, read, or see anything truthful or flag raising about HRC.

Jackilope

(819 posts)
35. It is like watching a trainwreck. We are sheep being led to the slaughterhouse.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:14 PM
Jun 2016

The choice is the direct route or the meanderig, triangulating path.

Meanwhile, the border collie the alerted wolves is getting "promoted" to live in the house. Works well for the wolves...

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
46. We are sheep caught in a trainwreck that was headed for the slaughterhouse.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:00 PM
Jun 2016

As for the border collie, we love ourz puppies. We know who's really in charge, right?



appalachiablue

(40,899 posts)
80. Years ago I read that Kissinger was the first Jew admitted to Chevy Chase
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:42 PM
Jun 2016

Country Club in the older, well known high end community adjacent to the DC line. How twisted is that.

elljay

(1,178 posts)
138. He married non-Jews
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 10:56 AM
Jun 2016

and never really had anything to do with our community. Henry was always mingling with and trying to be a part of the WASP upper crust. He was, and is a Court Jew, our equivalent of an Uncle Tom, someone who steps on his people while groveling to their oppressors. Here's an article that gives the Jewish perspective on Henry:

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/132819/happy-birthday-mr-kissinger

appalachiablue

(40,899 posts)
141. Knew he was in those circles; I'd never heard the phrase a Court Jew.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 11:12 AM
Jun 2016

The useful insider or local, happens in many realms as we know from life and history.
Bill Paley of CBS was turned down for property ownership on Long Island, the Hamptons I believe. Later he and Babe had a home there. What a bigoted, Anglo-white and mostly privileged society we had which after important strides, seems to be reverting. Hope that's wrong.

I'll take a look at the article, thank you.

appalachiablue

(40,899 posts)
42. Incredible, 500,000 people. Delaware's population is around 820,000,
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:41 PM
Jun 2016

Unfairfax Co., VA is 1.5 million+ and California almost 40 million.

Kissinger was a principal user of the ugly expression 'useless eaters' I believe.

appalachiablue

(40,899 posts)
73. That sounds more likely, though still awful for the surplus billions of people on earth.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:29 PM
Jun 2016

Don't suppose they'll ever permit humane euthanasia, at least until all valuables are stripped by predators.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
14. There is no place to hide for the world's 99% probably the 99.9%. They
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:21 PM
Jun 2016

have effectively stripped Greece and are working on Ireland and Spain. Look at what was done to Haiti as an example.

"Their plan to save the planet is to depopulate it. They'll only be to happy to watch us all eat dirt and die." I dont think they plan on us dying. But we have resources that they want and if we die in the process, they don't care.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
28. The 1% will be quite willing and happy to give us jobs
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:44 PM
Jun 2016

As soon as wages here become lower than they are in today's Thailand, for example.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
29. Well the problem with capitalism and it might be funny if not sad, is that after they take all our
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:54 PM
Jun 2016

resources they can't hurt us anymore. We won't be able to buy anything so why work for them? No one will buy anything.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
34. Well, there's that too
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:09 PM
Jun 2016

but if you ignore it and refuse to acknowledge it then it isn't there. Everyone knows that!!

appalachiablue

(40,899 posts)
69. That's a lot of real estate for half a million people and their robots to keep up, just saying'.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:09 PM
Jun 2016

There will be limits and overwork for robots too I reckon..

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
91. it was 500 million not 500 thousand and it is the Geoegia Guidestones
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 08:18 PM
Jun 2016

that say that. Kissinger called excess people "useless eaters".

Georgia Guidestones


http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20150824-one-of-the-us-greatest-mysteries

KPN

(15,541 posts)
20. $600,000 to be more accurate. And it's a security deposit in exchange for
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:36 PM
Jun 2016

social services and health care that you didn't contribute taxes toward. I know. I looked into it several years ago. If you don't have $600,000 that you can deposit with the Canadian government, or you are not bringing in a business that will provide a certain number of jobs, or you don't have a critical skill that has unmet demand in certain professions, you can't emigrate to Canada.

I'm now looking at Ecuador.

WhiteTara

(29,642 posts)
27. I've looked at Belize, Costa Rico, Guatamala and Ecuador
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:44 PM
Jun 2016

I'm still here. Each has an advantage and disadvantage. I also would love to be in Thailand.

KPN

(15,541 posts)
52. Yeah, we're still here too ...
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:47 PM
Jun 2016

because we have adult children here. But it's getting more attractive all the time.

appalachiablue

(40,899 posts)
75. What about Zika virus in the southern hemisphere, and the US too
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:36 PM
Jun 2016

until and if a vaccine is developed. Brazil, Peru, Argentina and Chile I've visited and am familiar with a good part of the Caribbean, Brit and French islands mainly.
Never made it to Belize or Costa Rica but friends loved their vacation time there.

 

swhisper1

(851 posts)
82. time to harvest pregnancies and grow the fetus in labs to assure good health
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:47 PM
Jun 2016

my science fiction favorite

whathehell

(28,884 posts)
118. I'm a woman as well, so I can appreciate that aspect of it
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 06:16 AM
Jun 2016

but it still creeps me out.

P.S. I've never been a sci fi fan, so that might have something to do with it.

WhiteTara

(29,642 posts)
93. I am not a mosquito magnet
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 09:14 PM
Jun 2016

and rarely if ever get bit. My honey on the other hand has type M blood that draws them like crazy. Probably why he doesn't want to move and it never occurred to me not to.

 

swhisper1

(851 posts)
84. marriage has become a farce, best contract every year, since its a mans world, let him
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:52 PM
Jun 2016

pay her for services and children. Since wives are cast aside anyway for a newer model at the rate of 80%+, we women should be paid. Several knots in that tho- like what to do with the kids.

Warpy

(110,578 posts)
53. Ecuador is good
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:53 PM
Jun 2016

if only because they kicked the IMF out and sharply devalued their currency. That means the US dollar goes a very long way. They've also been devastated by earthquake, so if you're bringing money in and will construct anything, you're golden.

The big danger there is that the right wing gets back in, they're getting restless and making trouble.

Uruguay is also good if you've got a lot more money than I have. Montevideo is beautiful but nearly as expensive as Manhattan.

Argentina's off the list until they get rid of Macri.

Belize and Costa Rica are both very pricey right now. Honduras is in the right wing shitter so their prices have moderated a bit.

KPN

(15,541 posts)
55. So have you spent time in Ecuador and Uruguay?
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:30 PM
Jun 2016

What's going on with the right wing in Ecuador? Any good sources you can share?

Warpy

(110,578 posts)
60. Only on Google
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:12 PM
Jun 2016

I've never had health, time and money all in the same place so I've never been able to travel. Health has been the stinker for the last 10 years.

I can see President Trump pushing me out the front door with a couple of suitcases, never to return, even if I have to be loaded onto a plane on a gurney.

Right now, it looks like Ecuador will get me.

KPN

(15,541 posts)
142. Well, here's hoping you return to good health if you haven't already.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 11:15 AM
Jun 2016

Hang in there. Yes, Ecuador looks pretty good to my wife and I as well.

McKim

(2,412 posts)
121. I Have Spent Months in Uruguay Over the Years
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 08:07 AM
Jun 2016

Uruguay is a healthy second world country. They understand politics there and are progressive. But the world economic crisis is having its influence there. I would move there comfortably as their values are to the left of the US. The people are wonderful. I think it is a good place to live.

I am too old to move out of the US now and away from the city where I have spent my entire life and have so many connections. But if I were younger like in my 20s I would get out while I could.

KPN

(15,541 posts)
143. Good to know. Have never been there.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 11:21 AM
Jun 2016

Yeah, the connections make it tough -- we have 3 adult kids within 2-4 hrs drive, so understand what you are saying. And lots of other family, friends, etc., a really nice home, property, and pets. Too many strings to leave for good I guess.

Indeed, PDX is a pretty nice place to live! Picked that up from your post upstream.

Response to Aerows (Reply #2)

Response to Aerows (Reply #103)

Response to Aerows (Reply #106)

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
3. And go where?
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:17 AM
Jun 2016

What happens when more and more people want to go to wherever that is? Norway and Canada can only support so many people.

It's a full world, and any given individual is needed less than ever.

roamer65

(36,736 posts)
11. A world war is coming.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:01 PM
Jun 2016

It doesn't matter where you go.

When the central banks realize they can't revive their economies through currency manipulation, they will resort to war as they have in the past.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
17. The next war will be via the internet or equivalent. Corporations will fight each
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:29 PM
Jun 2016

other for control of the worlds finances. The corporation with the best hackers will win. And if a corporation wanted to destroy the USofA all they have to do is shut down our internet. No access to money or credit and no access to food after initial supplies run out.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
33. Unless you live in the sticks
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:06 PM
Jun 2016

know how to actually grow and cook food. Some of us actually learned how to do both of those things.

Well, and we were forced to learn how to can on top of it.

The future may not be bright, but we won't starve.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
123. I would like to discuss this farther.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 08:53 AM
Jun 2016

I am being skeptical because I want information not because I want to argue. Can you grow enough food to survive? Is your water supply from a well you have control of? Do you need electricity and if so do you have a supply other than the local power company? Would you need to buy anything to survive? If so what will you use for money?

I haven't investigated being totally off the grid and am curious.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
145. Clearly since we are having this discussion in the first place
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 12:40 PM
Jun 2016

I'm not off the grid. *smirk*

And no, probably not for too long, but there are a multitude of ways to get around things if you don't have electricity or running water. Been there, done that in the Katrina aftermath for weeks, and it is highly NOT recommended.

You know what the absolute worst part of no electricity is? No air conditioning in the heat of summer with humidity so high it's like breathing soup.

Peacetrain

(22,829 posts)
15. A bit of unasked for advice...
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:24 PM
Jun 2016

but before anyone considers moving anywhere.. may I suggest they check with SLPC ..many of the countries we love to embrace as better than what we have.. have some of the worst neo nazi groups going..

Just saying.. the grass is not always greener on the other side..

Do not expect open arms

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
37. Neo liberalism is a destructive path
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:16 PM
Jun 2016

and would result in a brain drain of all free thinking creative minds, and the best innovators out of the country. It is zombie leadership at it's worst.

I am not sure what vision of the future these people have, fracking, TTIP, oil drilling poison food, spraying and big pharma--as if they are addicted to toxic life and cannot stop themselves. An intervention is needed, and I think Bernie opened a door toward having it.

America needs to sit down and tawk, at a time when there is the greatest resistance by some to do so--but now is the time for some tough love.

appalachiablue

(40,899 posts)
71. +1 Yuge intervention and Big Tawk. We need a mega Marshall Plan
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:17 PM
Jun 2016

to rebuild the US and a major Manhattan Project like effort to combat climate change. I can hope..

fleabiscuit

(4,542 posts)
40. Interesting.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:23 PM
Jun 2016

In emerging and developing economies people have much more optimism about the future than in rich countries.

I would wager that attitude was reflected in the recent primaries.

Johnny2X2X

(18,420 posts)
49. Whia
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:18 PM
Jun 2016

It's hard to tell this place apart from the Free Republic lately. People do realize that this country has improved in almost every objectively measurable way in the last 7 years right?

 

earthshine

(1,642 posts)
56. People are talking about their actual lives, not the artificial abstractions of statisticians.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:48 PM
Jun 2016

Objective measurements mean nothing to people who are losing their standards of living.

Guess it's all going well for you, eh?

Response to marmar (Original post)

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
61. To get a retirement visa in Thailand requires only a monthly income of $2K per month or
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:17 PM
Jun 2016

$25K in savings deposited in a Thai bank. Not that much.

Many other countries have higher income requirements, granted.

Response to Just reading posts (Reply #61)

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
63. The point is that a dollar goes much further there.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:29 PM
Jun 2016

You can live very comfortably there on an income of $30K - 40K per year.

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/on-retirement/2014/09/30/the-perks-of-retirement-in-thailand-and-the-philippines

Southeast Asia is a remarkably beautiful and diverse region that is becoming much more welcoming to Western retirees. Southeast Asia’s big appeal for foreign retirees is the cost of living. Several countries here are among the world’s cheapest places to retire. Your money goes much further in this part of the world than in the United States or any other Western country, but that does not mean that the standard of living is necessarily lower.

It is possible to stretch your retirement nest egg to enjoy a better lifestyle in Southeast Asia than you could afford anywhere else in the world. For example, in the United States you’re probably paying at least $50 per month for reasonably fast Internet. In the Philippines Internet costs $12 per month, likely for faster speeds than you have now. In Thailand and Malaysia fast Internet is $18 per month.

Similar savings can be seen in the prices of everything from rent and phone service to cooking gas, electricity and groceries. A visit to the doctor costs less than $20 throughout most of the region, and the care you receive is likely to exceed your expectations. English-speaking doctors educated in Europe, Australia and North America are the norm. They work in hygienic offices with modern equipment and can be affiliated with modern internationally accredited hospitals. Thailand and Malaysia are among the top five countries in the world for medical tourism.

English is widely understood throughout the region, and it is an official language of the Philippines and parts of Malaysia. The majority of people you come into contact with in these two countries are fluent in English. Additionally, English is a required subject at schools in every country in Southeast Asia. Urban areas and many small towns have enough English speakers that communication rarely presents a significant barrier.

Response to Just reading posts (Reply #63)

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
88. A "colonialist"? Really?
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 08:09 PM
Jun 2016


col·o·nize

verb

send a group of settlers to (a place) and establish political control over it.
come to settle among and establish political control over (the indigenous people of an area).


Do you really think that word applies to someone who retires in another country?

Because you're taking advantage of American wealth to live like a rich person in a poor country.

Pumping tens of thousands of dollars into their economy. How exploitative!

Now granted, I'm only toying with the idea of retiring there, but I have been to Thailand a few times, staying at resorts while I did so. Please tell me....was I taking advantage of the local people by vacationing there?

And it's still a police state monarchy, which is a political improvement on the USA how?

We're discussing retiring somewhere, not changing citizenship.

I cannot picture most Bernie Bros who are young enough to still need to earn a living by working wanting to trade college town USA for Phuket.

Um....we're discussing retirement, not a twenty-something fleeing the country to escape political oppression.

And Phuket is absolutely lovely. I have tickets to go there this coming November. Can't wait!

Response to Just reading posts (Reply #88)

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
90. Please explain exactly how someone retiring in Thailand is "colonizing" them.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 08:18 PM
Jun 2016

I've already shown that the dictionary disagrees with your use of the word.

come to settle among and establish political control over (the indigenous people of an area).

How much political control do American retirees have in Thailand?

Response to Just reading posts (Reply #90)

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
99. If we can't agree on common definitions, what's the point of discussion?
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:27 PM
Jun 2016
You'd be considered a colonialist by many Thais, including some I know.

Then they'd be wrong as well.



But in any case, I'm just toying with the idea. Putting that kind of distance between myself and my friends and family isn't something I'd do lightly/

On the other hand, I could snowbird there.

https://jwesthardin.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/is-thailand-the-new-mexico-for-the-snowbirds/

Am I just a part-time colonialist if I only go there during the winter?

Response to Just reading posts (Reply #99)

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
132. Thank you, that's very gracious of you. Something of a rarity in interneet discussions!
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 10:27 AM
Jun 2016

And thank you as well for the explanation. Adding the prefix certainly makes a difference.

While I see your point, I still disagree a bit (less than before, though) as regards retirees. Please see my response to your amended comment.

kjones

(1,053 posts)
137. Extensive
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 10:54 AM
Jun 2016

It's so weird to see all these people complaining but then wanting to move to places
that are just...objectively worse...in so many of the measures they proclaim to despise.
Thailand?...a place where "the dollar gets more"...which is just saying they want to have
the power (or more of it). Even the "Ugh, I'm so angry...I'm just going to leave the country,"
is an amazing expression of privilege. ...But "lol" they're Americans, so the world is their
playground, right?

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
135. There's something of a difference between an oil sheik and a middle class retiree.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 10:37 AM
Jun 2016
bought all the nice land to build monstrously gaudy new buildings.....Then imagine that because they were rich they could buy political favors like, say, citizenship.

That's how an American retiree appears to a peasant or shopkeeper in Thailand


Except that's not what American retirees are doing. They're not building palaces. They're not getting Thai citizenship. They're not (as far as I know) getting any political favors.

They're simply staying in very nice accommodations (perhaps buying a condo) and living in an upper middle class lifestyle. One which is not available to the average Thai citizen, granted.....but they're not living like kings. And in the meantime, contributing a lot of money to the local economy.

Did I win the genetic lottery when I was born to middle class parents in America? By world standards, sure. But I don't see any moral duty to scrape by in bleak suburbia here in the States when I can live in (relative) luxury in Thailand in my Golden Years.

Response to Just reading posts (Reply #135)

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
144. Hm....still disagree.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 11:21 AM
Jun 2016

Let's say an American retiree has an income of $50K/year. This is about three times as much as the per capita income in Thailand of about $15K/year.

Three times as much. If I met someone makes three times as much as I do, I'd think, "Wow. They're really doing well. No wonder they drive a Porsche".

In the meantime, an oil sheik has an income of.....oh, let's just say $100 million per year (he's not one of the really rich oil sheiks). That's two thousand times as much money as I make, as much in a day as I make in 7 years. It's a lifestyle I can barely comprehend.

I really don't think the two are remotely comparable.

Paka

(2,760 posts)
112. I have a good life here in Thailand,
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 12:55 AM
Jun 2016

on under 10k/year, and still manage to travel now and then. Three weeks in India in April and I go to France to visit friends in July. No, my Thai is not good, but I don't need it where I am.

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
113. If I were to retire in Thailand (which is very unlikely), I would have a steady income of $45K/year.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 01:03 AM
Jun 2016

My understanding is that I would be able to live quite comfortably on that amount, especially if I was in some place such as Chiang Mai rather than Phuket or Bangkok.

Paka

(2,760 posts)
115. You can indeed live well on 45k US a year.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 02:26 AM
Jun 2016

I could live on less even than the 10k I do if I moved out of Chiang Mai, but I like some of the luxuries I have here. Phuket sucks, but I have friends that live very well on Koh Phangon. I just came back from a visit to them and it's very nice down there.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
78. You don't want people in the US who use words like neoliberalism???
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:41 PM
Jun 2016

Why, it is a well-recognized political philosophy.

Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #78)

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
97. Yeah, I agree. Let's just call it "capitalism" then........
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 09:49 PM
Jun 2016

No modifiers needed.

Being a Classic Red is pretty easy nowdays. I don't even have to make arguments against capitalism. The capitalists make my arguments FOR me. All I have to do it point it out.

Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #97)

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
109. IKR?
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:28 PM
Jun 2016

The Capitalists are sounding more and more like Evangelists that are losing their flock and don't know what to do about it- other than to become more hateful.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
95. His WW1 book was surprisingly good (assuming we're talking about Niall)
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 09:45 PM
Jun 2016

Most of his stuff is drek though.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
58. Many more will not be able or willing to leave.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:07 PM
Jun 2016

Neo-liberalism will lead to open revolt in any country it is allowed to destroy, given enough time. People get defiant when they truly have nothing to lose.

undergroundpanther

(11,925 posts)
70. what sucks for me is
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:09 PM
Jun 2016

Being disabled ssi only pays out around 744 bux
To leave this country. I was told I had to make a minimum of 1,000 bux a month. Im so screwed. So are tons of other people suffering from disability and poverty

Hekate

(89,707 posts)
85. We'll give it our earnest consideration if Trump is elected; not otherwise.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:56 PM
Jun 2016

"Neoliberals" -- what a crock.

 

DrBulldog

(841 posts)
100. Actually, the fleeing has already begun ... to the Pacific Northwest ...
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:44 PM
Jun 2016

. . . particularly Oregon, the "American Oasis". Oregon: the #1 moving destination in the United States and tied with California having the fastest-growing economy in the nation. And the state government is 100% Democratic - no surprise!

McKim

(2,412 posts)
122. Be Prepared to Have Good Manner and Values
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 08:19 AM
Jun 2016

Oregon is great. But please bring your best manners. We don't like people who tailgate and honk and get ahead of others in a line.
Good manners and caring about others rather than the almighty dollar are important here. Be prepared to slow down and be nice or don't come.

roamer65

(36,736 posts)
107. It's a holiday in Cambodia.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:20 PM
Jun 2016

Where people dress in black...

Sorry, just reminded me of the DK song.

 

DrBulldog

(841 posts)
108. FYI for your early-leavers ... you have to be under 55 to migrate to modern New Zealand . . .
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:22 PM
Jun 2016

. . . without having to "buy your way in" with a business investment.

CrispyQ

(35,981 posts)
126. My house is the size of a postage stamp & worth $350k.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 09:41 AM
Jun 2016

We live in a bubble economy that is manipulated to benefit the rich. If I were 30 years younger, I would move elsewhere.

"Where to Invade Next" by Michael Moore. Highly recommended!

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
129. what a load of bogus codswallop.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 10:03 AM
Jun 2016

This overeducated boob says "neoliberalism" caused the massive increase in Russia death rates "until finally President Putin came in and stabilized matters." Except--guess what--the death rates are still astronomical today. Hmm I wonder if the total pilfering of the Russian economy that started after the USSR collapsed and has been perfected by Putin might have something to do with the problem.

And this minor-league egghead was a major player in Kucinich's campaign back when. Now I'm embarrassed I supported Kucinich.

The headline reads like clumsy Soviet propaganda from the days of old, and it's no surprise the interview starts off with this totally false whitewashing of Putin, since it's on the fake news site "The Real News Network" that was a mouthpiece for Kremlin propaganda during the war on Ukraine.

"The rate of men dying prematurely in Russia is totally out of line with the rest of Europe"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/31/russian-men-losing-years-to-vodka

THE NUMBERS VLADIMIR PUTIN DOESN’T WANT YOU TO SEE
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2014/03/numbers-vladimir-putin-doesnt-want-you-to-see

Vogon_Glory

(9,037 posts)
134. I can envision a brain drain
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 10:32 AM
Jun 2016

I can envision a brain-drain, particularly as underpaid and debt-ridden younger Americans realize that our living standards have slipped, that their counter-parts in western and Central Europe live as well or better than they do and the denial that America DOESN'T have the highest standards of living finally cracks.

I realized this potential 15 years ago trying to argue with right-wing nuts. They were infuriated and shouted me down, in large part because I hadn't learned to book-mark or save the Internet addresses of sober, somber statistics that blew their denials to pieces.

That was 15 years ago, when the Clinton-era employment boom still protected a lot of people's middle-class status. Now, thanks to Dubya-economics, "conservative" Republicans, Tea Party types, and not one but TWO recessions (Counting 9-11), things have gotten noticeably worse.

 

Just reading posts

(688 posts)
147. In fairness, when I discuss retiring in another country, it has nothing to do with politics.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 02:29 PM
Jun 2016

It's simply a matter of living at a higher standard of living.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Neoliberalism Will Soon F...