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cali

(114,904 posts)
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:49 AM Jun 2016

It is looking as if Omar Mateen could have and should have been stopped.

Beyond the gun control issue, which I completely support, there was a fucking mountain of evidence that this guy was dangerous. Some of it was old and some of it was very recent. From the dealer who refused to sell him bulk ammunition, to the co-workers who raised concerns about him- and more. So much more. It really looks like the FBI dropped the ball.

read:http://www.wsj.com/articles/orlando-shooter-raised-suspicion-at-gun-shops-1466037291

http://abcnews.go.com/US/details-emerge-orlando-nightclub-shooter-omar-mateen/story?id=39891550









35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It is looking as if Omar Mateen could have and should have been stopped. (Original Post) cali Jun 2016 OP
The FBI? I'm not so sure. His family sure as hell did though. tonyt53 Jun 2016 #1
I agree-When the FBI guy first spoke redstateblues Jun 2016 #2
The suicide bomber was mentioned librarylu Jun 2016 #8
Pehaps if you've performed umrah you should be on a watch list. Igel Jun 2016 #15
It does librarylu Jun 2016 #20
And then watchers to watch the watchers of the watchers - 200% employment. Yo_Mama Jun 2016 #31
That's horrible - pilgrimage in no way correlates to wanting to kill people. Yo_Mama Jun 2016 #30
"aren't we supposed to be friends of Saudi Arabia?" Those 'secret' 28 pages of the 911 Commission 99th_Monkey Jun 2016 #23
The 911 reports are coming out now librarylu Jun 2016 #27
There's other evidence- Omar was also an online follower of Anwar al-Awlaki leveymg Jun 2016 #28
"Stopped" by whom and how? jberryhill Jun 2016 #3
The FBI could have kept him under surveillance cali Jun 2016 #4
I doubt there is anywhere remotely near enough FBI agents to surveil everyone that should be watched Fumesucker Jun 2016 #5
An impossible task for sure. tonyt53 Jun 2016 #6
Maybe the agents investigating Hillary Abouttime Jun 2016 #29
24 hours a day in shifts? jberryhill Jun 2016 #9
Anyone who has been on a terrorist watch list should be pinged to the Feds when they buy a gun. onehandle Jun 2016 #7
Okay, and then what? jberryhill Jun 2016 #10
Was it his job to carry THAT gun? No. How about all that ammo? Again, not required for professional Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #16
I think that gun dealer librarylu Jun 2016 #11
The FBI is notified when someone on the terrorist watch list buys a gun. The Orlando shooter... PoliticAverse Jun 2016 #13
that is where the FBI screwed up Amishman Jun 2016 #21
Okay, so let's say he was on the list and bought a gun jberryhill Jun 2016 #22
bring him in for questioning Amishman Jun 2016 #24
"bring him in for questioning"? jberryhill Jun 2016 #25
Perhaps while being on the watch list and questioned twice REP Jun 2016 #33
I read somewhere that they contacted him with an undercover agent and tapped his phone, etc. Solomon Jun 2016 #12
Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #14
Excuse me? You're fucking accusing me of using puke talking points? cali Jun 2016 #17
FBI too busy checking library records to actually notice those who should be noticed. Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #18
I found the "appeared to be speaking a ME language" to be amusing. Igel Jun 2016 #19
If he was on a terrorism watch list why wasn't he fired? mainstreetonce Jun 2016 #26
Do you believe the government should have the power to have people fired by putting them on a list? jberryhill Jun 2016 #35
The FBI dropped the ball on this one Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #32
Maybe the FBI rusty fender Jun 2016 #34

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
2. I agree-When the FBI guy first spoke
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:57 AM
Jun 2016

He mentioned that they had interviewed him twice and found nothing. It struck me as odd that they would lead with that. It was like the old courtroom strategy of shining a light on your weakness right out of the gate. What he didn't mention was the contact the killer had with a suicide bomber and the fact that he had been to Saudi Arabia twice. I think the FBI may need more manpower-a guy like Mateen needed to be kept under surveillance

librarylu

(503 posts)
8. The suicide bomber was mentioned
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:10 AM
Jun 2016

Mateen knew him but that was all.

The trips to Saudi Arabia were for religious pilgrimages.

http://www.businessinsider.com/omar-mateen-saudi-uae-umrah-2016-6

Uh, aren't we supposed to be friends of Saudi Arabia?

20/20 hindsite is always best.

Igel

(35,501 posts)
15. Pehaps if you've performed umrah you should be on a watch list.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:20 AM
Jun 2016

Can't be safe.

That would make a lot of US Muslims suspicious for reasons of religion. And keep a lot of foreign Muslims from being allowed to visit the US. Almost starts looking like a kind of ban on a subset of Muslims for religion and not danger.

librarylu

(503 posts)
20. It does
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:31 AM
Jun 2016

Since we don't know who might go off next maybe everyone should be on a watch list.

Think of the jobs that would create! We'd need watchers to watch the watchers, too, just in case.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
31. And then watchers to watch the watchers of the watchers - 200% employment.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 01:25 PM
Jun 2016

Everyone in the OrthoStasi. Not a pleasant picture.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
30. That's horrible - pilgrimage in no way correlates to wanting to kill people.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 01:24 PM
Jun 2016

I'm sorry, but that is no solution.

Of course, this guy apparently did say a lot of things that indicated he had bad beliefs. But the umrah was not one of those indications.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
23. "aren't we supposed to be friends of Saudi Arabia?" Those 'secret' 28 pages of the 911 Commission
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 11:45 AM
Jun 2016

Report say otherwise. i.e. The Saudis financed the 911 perps. History repeats itself.

Yes of course those 2 trips to Saudi Arabia were crucially important huge Red Flags,
flags that were ignored.

librarylu

(503 posts)
27. The 911 reports are coming out now
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 12:12 PM
Jun 2016

At the time, or soon after, 71% of Americans reportedly believed Iraq was behind it.

Not all Saudis funded it. What about our buddies in the oil business?

Mateen was there, what, four and five years ago? There was no evidence he was there for any reason other than Umrah, no evidence he hooked up with any terrorists, radical groups, trained with anyone.....

Apparently he didn't seem dangerous then, at least to the FBI.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
28. There's other evidence- Omar was also an online follower of Anwar al-Awlaki
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 12:32 PM
Jun 2016

Just like the Boston Bombers, the Ft Bragg shooter, the Times Square bomber, the Shoe Bomber and virtually every other actual AQ inspired terrorist going back to the Flt 77 hijackers who were housed by al-Awlaki when they first arrived in 2000.

Also like the Boston Bombers, Omar's family was a beneficiary of CIA visas and exile opposition group programs. If you must know what the common thread is that runs through most of these incidents, that is it.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
5. I doubt there is anywhere remotely near enough FBI agents to surveil everyone that should be watched
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:02 AM
Jun 2016

You would need at least four agents to watch someone 24/7, three eight hour shifts per day and then another agent to cover for weekends, vacations, sick days and so on.

 

Abouttime

(675 posts)
29. Maybe the agents investigating Hillary
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 01:19 PM
Jun 2016

Should be reassigned to counterterrorism. So far there has been no sign of wrongdoing by Clinton, her private server has shown to be more secure than the ones used by the State Department and DNC. I think the agents time could be used more wisely, such as preventing mass murders.

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
7. Anyone who has been on a terrorist watch list should be pinged to the Feds when they buy a gun.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:09 AM
Jun 2016

That minimal action, which would not affect your average gun owner, would have done the job.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
10. Okay, and then what?
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:11 AM
Jun 2016

He had been a security guard for years. It was his JOB to carry a gun.

So, he bought a gun. Then what? Arrest him for buying a gun?
 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
16. Was it his job to carry THAT gun? No. How about all that ammo? Again, not required for professional
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:21 AM
Jun 2016

reasons at all. Actually his professional need offered parameters which make the actual purchases even more suspect, not less suspect.

librarylu

(503 posts)
11. I think that gun dealer
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:13 AM
Jun 2016

should have been on a watch list after his posts on Facebook in November calling for Obama to be "handcuffed, removed from Office and charged with Treason and then publicly executed!"

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/omar-mateen-st-lucie-county-shooting-center

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
13. The FBI is notified when someone on the terrorist watch list buys a gun. The Orlando shooter...
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:18 AM
Jun 2016

wasn't on the terrorist watch list when he bought his guns.

Amishman

(5,568 posts)
21. that is where the FBI screwed up
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:36 AM
Jun 2016

even if they did not have enough evidence to charge him, he should have stayed on the watch list

and yes, the FBI absolutely needs to be notified if someone on the watch list buys a gun

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
22. Okay, so let's say he was on the list and bought a gun
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:41 AM
Jun 2016

Then what?

The guy was an armed security guard for years.

He was regularly carrying a gun when the FBI had earlier contact with him.

But let's say he was on the list, he buys a gun, and the FBI is informed. Then what? Full time surveillance for how long?

Amishman

(5,568 posts)
24. bring him in for questioning
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 11:51 AM
Jun 2016

see if he consents to a polygraph, and generally revisit the investigation.

It won't be perfect but it would give a second chance to catch someone, particularly since if they are buying a gun for an attack they are likely pretty far along in their planning and there very well could be other evidence of their plans.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
25. "bring him in for questioning"?
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 12:02 PM
Jun 2016

Let me see if I understand you.

You believe, that in the United States of America, a person who has committed no crime and for whom there is no probable cause to believe they have committed a crime, can be taken into custody, forced to submit to questioning, and given a polygraph test?

You actually believe this?

Okay, fine, we'll take that as something that is actually legal.

Now, you have him in custody. You start asking him questions. He says that he prefers to remain silent and does not consent to a polygraph test.

What do you do next?

Furthermore, where is this "other evidence" coming from? We search his house too?

"generally revisit the investigation."

Okay, the investigation last time around did not find that he had done anything illegal (and, in fact, he hadn't). What would be turned up in "revisiting" it? That he had been an armed security guard, had a habit of saying obnoxious things, and has been carrying firearms for years without committing any crime.

What then?

REP

(21,691 posts)
33. Perhaps while being on the watch list and questioned twice
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 03:30 PM
Jun 2016

The FBI should have spoken with his employers and suggested strongly that he be moved to non-armed duty and his CCW license revoked along with the clearance that expedited his gun purchases? I mean while he was on the watch list; not once he had been removed but while he was being investigated. There's no guarantee it would have stopped him, but it would have at least made it a little more difficult.

I don't believe in locking people up because they might do something. I don't believe in "pre crime." I think the FBI isn't entirely trustworthy. But I think that having a person be put on unarmed job duties with no reduction in pay while on a watch list and/or active investigation may not be an unreasonable thing. It'd have to be fleshed out much better than I've done in this post I've typed on my phone though.

Solomon

(12,338 posts)
12. I read somewhere that they contacted him with an undercover agent and tapped his phone, etc.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:16 AM
Jun 2016

If doing that doesn't produce further suspicion, what the hell do you think they could have done?

Response to cali (Original post)

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
17. Excuse me? You're fucking accusing me of using puke talking points?
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:22 AM
Jun 2016

You really are a.....

go.... yeah, that.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
18. FBI too busy checking library records to actually notice those who should be noticed.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:24 AM
Jun 2016

They did the same think with the Boston Bombers. They were alerted but gave them the all clear. They were incorrect to do so in both cases. These are extremely costly errors of judgement and it is starting to look systemic and habitual.

Igel

(35,501 posts)
19. I found the "appeared to be speaking a ME language" to be amusing.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:28 AM
Jun 2016

I once saw a language demonstration by Kenneth Pike. He's an old-school linguist who was really good at eliciting data from monolingual native speakers in order to produce a grammar and basic lexicon. The kind of thing you need when you run into a formerly unknown language and want to describe it.

The faculty at the university garden-pathed him. He was stumped. And he was stumped because he used as one of his inputs race. Perhaps unconsciously so. The informant ("consultant&quot was a black woman, and he got the grammatical basics down, some vocab, all the linguistic things. But when he was asked what language or language family he thought the language was in, he flopped. It was Garifuna, which is a hard language to categorize in the first place (being a creole). But "black" and "odd language" almost always points to Africa.

"Unfamiliar foreign language spoken by somebody who looks ME must be ME." I assume Mateen was speaking Dari, since his father seems to be a Pakhtun nationalist.

mainstreetonce

(4,178 posts)
26. If he was on a terrorism watch list why wasn't he fired?
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 12:09 PM
Jun 2016

A security guard on a watch list? Did the FBI notify his employer?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
35. Do you believe the government should have the power to have people fired by putting them on a list?
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 04:01 PM
Jun 2016

The FBI doesn't notify anyone that someone is on the terror watch list.

The last time we had the government in the business of putting people on lists through unstated criteria, and leaning on their employers to fire them, it didn't work out well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

During the McCarthy era, thousands of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers and became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private-industry panels, committees and agencies. The primary targets of such suspicions were government employees, those in the entertainment industry, educators and union activists. Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was often greatly exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment and/or destruction of their careers; some even suffered imprisonment. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts later overturned, laws that were later declared unconstitutional, dismissals for reasons later declared illegal or actionable, or extra-legal procedures that would come into general disrepute.

A prime target: homosexuals:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_scare

Both homosexuals and communist party members were seen as subversive elements in American society who all shared the same ideals of antitheism, rejection of bourgeois culture and middle-class morality, lack of conformity; they were scheming and manipulative and, most importantly, would put their own agendas above others in the eyes of the general population.[21] McCarthy also associated homosexuality and communism as "threats to the 'American way of life'."[22] Homosexuality was directly linked to security concerns, and more government employees were dismissed because of their homosexual sexual orientation than because they were left-leaning or communist. George Chauncey noted that, "The specter of the invisible homosexual, like that of the invisible communist, haunted Cold War America," and homosexuality (and by implication homosexuals themselves) were constantly referred to not only as a disease, but also as an invasion, like the perceived danger of communism and subversives.



Demsrule86

(69,096 posts)
32. The FBI dropped the ball on this one
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 03:11 PM
Jun 2016

Head should roll including the director's. Why do we have a Gop as head of the FBI anyway...bad idea.

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