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Fri Feb 26, 2016, 05:38 PM

Saying 'All Lives Matter' is the new wedge issue. Now that the confederate flag is gone

the GOP needed something that would slur African americans but in a more subtle way. Black Lives Matter is about value-ing lives that traditionally were not valued. It is about equality. It is not putting one set of lives above another. Saying All Lives Matter gaslights African americans. Don't be fooled. Don't use it. And don't hesitate to call out anyone who does.

I also think the GOP do not want activists negotiating with police on an equal footing. For sure it would be hard at first. But then issues of police training, community cooperation, police pay and hiring, black on black violence would inevitably be discussed. And solutions might come about. And peace and understanding of two groups on equal footing is not what the GOP, whose wedge issues are based on race during elections, do not want.

It is the perfect GOP wedge issues. Racists understand it as baiting BLM followers. Non racists or the naďve see it as a reasonable statement of the importance of life, all the while they spread the hate meme by repeating it.

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Reply Saying 'All Lives Matter' is the new wedge issue. Now that the confederate flag is gone (Original post)
applegrove Feb 2016 OP
demmiblue Feb 2016 #1
applegrove Feb 2016 #2
gcomeau Feb 2016 #3
Wounded Bear Feb 2016 #43
NobodyHere Feb 2016 #4
yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #5
NobodyHere Feb 2016 #15
yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #17
NobodyHere Feb 2016 #18
yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #25
oberliner Feb 2016 #27
yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #30
oberliner Feb 2016 #31
yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #32
oberliner Feb 2016 #33
MrMickeysMom Feb 2016 #6
RichGirl Feb 2016 #19
NobodyHere Feb 2016 #20
Bonx Feb 2016 #21
RichGirl Feb 2016 #38
lapfog_1 Feb 2016 #36
oberliner Feb 2016 #28
backscatter712 Feb 2016 #23
NobodyHere Feb 2016 #24
oberliner Feb 2016 #29
HughBeaumont Feb 2016 #34
rock Feb 2016 #37
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #7
Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #8
applegrove Feb 2016 #9
Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #10
applegrove Feb 2016 #11
tenderfoot Feb 2016 #12
applegrove Feb 2016 #13
Lizzie Poppet Feb 2016 #14
applegrove Feb 2016 #16
NobodyHere Feb 2016 #22
yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #26
oberliner Feb 2016 #35
MH1 Feb 2016 #39
oberliner Feb 2016 #40
MH1 Feb 2016 #41
craigmatic Feb 2016 #42

Response to applegrove (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 05:46 PM

1. Let's start with our own.



K&R

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 05:48 PM

2. I agree on that point.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 05:49 PM

3. I've had to explain this multiple times to relations on Facebook.

 

They kept sharing "All Lives Matter" or "Police Lives Matter" posts. And I'm quite confident most of them just didn't grasp the implications or background... they just saw the slogan and thought "well yes, that's true! All lives DO matter!" and hit like.


Since I started cluing them in the rate at which I see those things has fallen drastically.

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Response to gcomeau (Reply #3)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 11:37 AM

43. I've never hit like or share on any of those posts...

I let them die. Nobody has approached me about my stance, so I haven't elaborated.

Good on you, though.

The dog whistle politics of the right continue unabated.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 05:50 PM

4. All Lives Matter

 

I don't mind saying it.

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:02 PM

5. and the results are in!

On Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:58 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

All Lives Matter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7642864

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

GOP wedge issue

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:00 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Okay. I get it. It's not what BLM is about, but this should be a discussion with the poster to explain why this sentiment can be offensive in context, but not alert worthy IMHO.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Poster being an a**.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stupid can't be hidden just because it's stupid.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: stupid. someone needs a little education.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Who said it was a GOP wedge issue? The person who alerted did. Doesn't sound like a rule to me. It sounds like an opinion.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:45 PM

15. Thank you for posting this

 

And thank you to the jurors who voted to leave my comment alone instead of stifling conversation.

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:48 PM

17. just so you know..

I voted against you. And posted it for transparency.

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:52 PM

18. So why do you think "All Lives Matter" is hideworthy?

 

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #25)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 06:47 AM

27. "Any other interpretation is wrong."

 

There is something I don't trust about writers who write sentences like that.

He also has an article stating that football should be abolished.

Seems to be presenting himself as the "hip white guy who knows everything".

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #30)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 06:58 AM

31. Another article by a "snarky young white man who thinks he knows everything"

 

?w=595

The "clever analogy" that he opens the article with is idiotic.

Do you find it odd that both of these articles "explaining" the concept of Black Lives Matter are written by young white men?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #31)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 07:00 AM

32. Fine, THAN this guy is black, are you happy?

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #32)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 07:12 AM

33. That's a good, thoughtful article - not wannabe clever white boy snark like those other two

 

Very good points raised. I agree with the sentiments expressed. I do think, however, that "all lives matter" isn't necessarily an expression of racism as the snarky white guy asserted that it always was.

For instance, there is this article:

All Lives Matter: Improving the Lives of Young Boys and Men of Color

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/monique-miles/all-lives-matter-improvin_b_6785448.html

That being said, I agree that people ought to be able to embrace the concept of Black Lives Matter without seeing it as somehow being an attack on people who are not black, which it isn't. It is pointing out the obvious discrepancies that exist based on race.

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:02 PM

6. Results of your Jury

Looks like you have to be careful when expressing your opinion, even if it breaks no rule.


On Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:58 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

All Lives Matter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7642864

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

GOP wedge issue

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:00 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Okay. I get it. It's not what BLM is about, but this should be a discussion with the poster to explain why this sentiment can be offensive in context, but not alert worthy IMHO.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Poster being an a**.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stupid can't be hidden just because it's stupid.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: stupid. someone needs a little education.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Who said it was a GOP wedge issue? The person who alerted did. Doesn't sound like a rule to me. It sounds like an opinion.

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:52 PM

19. The problem with saying "All Lives Matter" is...

....in it's attempt to be politically correct, it becomes meaningless. Let's face it. Nobody, NOBODY has ever questioned whether white lives matter or not. It doesn't NEED to be said.

Black Lives Matter...makes sense. As would Muslim Lives Matter....etc...

Only those who have felt discriminated against have any need to say WE MATTER.

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Response to RichGirl (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:56 PM

20. Actually

 

I would argue that "All Lives Matter" gives equality to all races. Discrimination against a black or asian is the same as discrimination against a white person. I know it doesn't happen equal numbers but it is equally offensive.

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 08:23 PM

21. Any argument against 'all lives matter' is ultimately going to end up looking dumb.

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Response to Bonx (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 09:11 AM

38. In my opinion....

It's pretty dumb to have to say that ANY lives matter. OF COURSE all lives matter...even puppy dogs and kittens.

I don't know where you live...but I live in a state that has a racism problem. So to cancel out BLACK LIVES MATTER... and replace it with the generic ALL LIVES MATTER is just another way to put blacks in their place.

The guys who spend a beautiful Sunday marching around with automatic weapons and confederate flags....these guys...and there are many...need it in their face that BLACK LIVES MATTER! They need a plane passing over with a banner. They need someone to spray paint it on their broken down old pick up trucks!

Yes...all lives matter, but for just a short time can't we focus on the people who are made to feel like their lives don't matter.

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #20)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 08:29 AM

36. co-opting the phrase "Black Lives Matter"

is an attempt to refute the claim and negate those that use it.

Of course all lives matter... that does not need to be said or even debated.

What BLM is about is the overwhelming statistics about the way young black people are treated in this society and what they face everyday just living in this country (racial profiling and constant harassment by law enforcement).

If you want a slogan that states something about your feelings of racial equality and a call for no discrimination, please feel free to invent one... just don't use one that sounds like BLM or shout it at someone with BLM sign or T-shirt.

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Response to RichGirl (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 06:48 AM

28. There are some white lives that don't seem to matter to folks

 

Particular whites who are living in poverty. Whites who are homeless. Etc.

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 08:29 PM

23. That's like going to a cancer fundraiser...

...just to yell out "Hey, healthy people need money too!"

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 08:31 PM

24. If the healthy person is homeless and starving

 

Then yes they do

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #23)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 06:50 AM

29. No it's not

 

It's more like pointing out that whites are often victims of police abuse. That whites in poverty are often also ignored and/or mistreated.

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 07:13 AM

34. Saying it is Denying the Victim.

It's kind of an offshoot of negationism.

Many, including Democratic presidential candidate Martin O'Malley, have countered with "All lives matter." The problem is neatly illustrated by a Reddit user:

”Imagine that you're sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don't get any.

So you say "I should get my fair share." And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, "everyone should get their fair share." Now, that's a wonderful sentiment -- indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad's smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn't solve the problem that you still haven't gotten any!

The problem is that the statement "I should get my fair share" had an implicit "too" at the end: "I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else." But your dad's response treated your statement as though you meant "only I should get my fair share", which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that "everyone should get their fair share," while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.[...]

[...]Just like asking dad for your fair share, the phrase "black lives matter" also has an implicit "too" at the end: it's saying that black lives should also matter. But responding to this by saying "all lives matter" is willfully going back to ignoring the problem. It's a way of dismissing the statement by falsely suggesting that it means "only black lives matter," when that is obviously not the case. And so saying "all lives matter" as a direct response to "black lives matter" is essentially saying that we should just go back to ignoring the problem.

—GeekAesthete[10]

On Real Time with Bill Maher, Bill Maher expressed support of the "Black Lives Matter" phrase, arguing that "All Lives Matter" "implies that all lives are equally at risk, and they're not"

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Response to NobodyHere (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 09:07 AM

37. Agreed, but I'm a little slow

So for those that disagree with you, I need to know: what lives do not matter?

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:08 PM

7. No. The wedge issue is "Blue Lives Matter"

Which is translated to mean "if you stand with BLM, you are scum that stands against our heroic police."

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:15 PM

8. Its my opinion that getting sucked into debating against "all lives matter" is a deliberate trap

And it doesnt take a genius to figure out why- "what, you mean all lives DONT matter?"

I would ignore it. Also it's pretty hard to draw an equivalence between what is obviously a diversionary tactic, to the confederate flag and its documented history around racism and the civil war.

JMO.
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:19 PM

9. Would you agree that the confederate flag as celebrated in the last 20 years was about keeping

people it targeted down? In the same way saying All Lives Matter takes away from Black Lives Matter, which is about equality under the law, and is meant as a bait in the same way. IMHO.

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Response to applegrove (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:27 PM

10. Im not arguing intent, only practicalities.

And the only defense any of these goobers could come up with for the CF was "heritage". I suspect debating "all lives matter" just further derails the BLM conversation, because again, then the derailer can spend all sorts of time asking why all lives DONT matter.

Which clearly isnt the point or message of Black Lives Matter. I wouldnt bother with such derailment, but obviously im not gonna tell anyone else what to do.
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:31 PM

11. My worry is the All Lives Matter meme is spreading. Facebook CEO had to send a memo

to his staff this week telling them not to use it on internal boards or something. I guess my feeling is we have to fight it now. We don't agree. Vive la difference!

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:34 PM

12. I love it when conservatives feign caring for others

like a fox about to enter a hen house.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:36 PM

13. Maybe asking them about the death penalty would be a good comeback to 'but every life is important'.

You are correct that whenever language or ideas that imply compassion or empathy come out of the GOP's mouths they should immediately be suspect.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:43 PM

14. Agreed. You can't have all lives mattering until black lives matter just as much.

 

You can't reach the goal of the former without reaching the latter (do they never teach set theory in school any more? ).

I will say, however, that in an appropriate context, I don't mind pointing out that red lives matter, too. Not ever as some sort of "comeback" to BLM, but when it's relevant. Native Americans are also killed by police at a horrifying rate...they're another group whose lives have been historically devalued. Bit of a hot button issue for me...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:48 PM

16. Yes. There is a movement in Canada called "Idle No More' of indigenous people. We

Last edited Fri Feb 26, 2016, 08:03 PM - Edit history (1)

finally have a federal government that seems to want to make the real changes that were put off for 10 years under Harper. Peoples coming into their own where rights are concerned. Important stuff and a threat to the right in both Canada and the USA. There is about to be a public inquiry into missing and murdered aboriginal women. The Liberals are on the ball. Thank god.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 26, 2016, 08:27 PM

22. I disagree

 

All Lives Matter can be interpreted as meaning that all lives are equal. Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 06:47 AM

26. The Problem with Saying ‘All Lives Matter’

Imagine that you wake up late one night to the sound of your home being burglarized. Through the crack in your bedroom door, you see several figures hauling out your television, computers and nice china to their getaway car parked outside.

Thinking quickly, you dial 911 on your iPhone.

“911, what’s your emergency?”

“Help!” you whisper. “My home is being robbed!”

“Stay where you are, Miss,” the other voice assures you. “We’ll look into it.”

“Thank you,” you whisper. “My address is—”

“Woah, Ma’am,” the voice on the other end says. “Why are you bringing addresses into this?”


Read more at http://www.relevantmagazine.com/current/nation/problem-saying-all-lives-matter#XdkDoMuxQQO95E2G.99

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #26)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 07:36 AM

35. That has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read

 

I know this young white dude thinks he is being clever, but that analogy is completely idiotic.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #35)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 09:29 AM

39. A better analogy

You are at a restaurant with a group of friends. Everyone has been served their food except you. After a reasonable amount of time, you look around and say something like, "hmm, where's my food? I need food". Your friends pipe up and say "we ALL need food."

Doesn't make much sense, does it? It wouldn't happen that way.

The reason this is analogous to the slogan "Black Lives Matter" is this: whites already receive a level of justice in this country, that is generally denied to blacks, generally along racial lines. Of course, if you don't believe that statement, you don't get the analogy, and probably have trouble with why "All lives matter" is problematic as a retort to "Black lives matter".

When someone retorts to "Black lives matter" with "All lives matter", they are indicating a failure to grasp the plight of African Americans in the justice system in this country. Whether it is ignorance or racism, in an individual case, is often debatable, IMO. However I have no doubt that there is a large swath of of racism in this country, and that many of the retorts do rise from racism. On the other hand, there is also vast ignorance and insensitivity to the problem, which to me doesn't rise to racism - these folks can be enlightened. So I don't think saying "All lives matter" is necessarily racist, but the promotion of that as a tactic, is racist.

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Response to MH1 (Reply #39)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 09:43 AM

40. That's a little better

 

Clearly justice is meted out differently based on race in this country and black people (along with many other people of color) have to deal with issues that white people generally don't face. The frustration of living in a society where it feels like black lives do not matter understandably would lead to a movement to spread the idea that black lives do matter.

That being said, the 911 phone call analogy is stupid and not at all illustrative.

I do think that there are some people who take "BLM" to mean that non-black lives don't matter and have the knee-jerk "all lives matter" response and thus totally miss the point. However, I think there are other people (of all races) who promote the idea that all lives matter to try to emphasize the shared humanity of all people in a positive way (incorporating the same message as many in the BLM movement).

I took issue with this particular article because, first of all, I think it's annoying for a young white guy to explain what the BLM movement is about in a fairly snarky and patronizing way, and also, as I mentioned, because I think the analogy is quite poor, to put it mildly.

Your analogy is definitely better.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #40)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 10:39 AM

41. Thanks, by the way I should mention, I saw that somewhere on the Internet

I didn't come up with myself, just saw it and thought it worked well.

There are several of these analogies floating around, and I just latched on to that one as probably the best and easiest for most people to understand.

I don't think the 911 call analogy that I have heard is that stupid though. (You call 911 to tell them your house is on fire so they'll send the fire dept, and they respond with "all houses matter". The point is, the situation described in the analogy is ridiculous. It is ridiculous because it makes no sense, that's not how it would happen - just like the restaurant analogy. You call 911 because you have a problem; it is not appropriate (and wouldn't happen) to get a response that everyone else has problems, too. No, they dispatch the organization that should be able to help with your problem. When people are saying "black lives matter" it is a call of distress - to respond with "all lives matter" just ignores the situation of distress.

I didn't go to the article you were referring to, but I would agree that the analogy posted from the article is a little harder to follow, and therefore "stupid" in the sense that it doesn't effectively get the point across. I had to re-read it and scratch my head to figure it out, and I already know what the plot is supposed to be. So, a swing and a miss, I'd say. And yeah, a young white guy has no room to be snarky and patronizing about an issue like this.

And I definitely agree we shouldn't be broad-brushing all uses of "all lives matter" as racism. Some is racism, some is ignorance, some is (as you point out) trying to promote a more noble notion. I would however, say that for the more noble, context matters, and when it isn't misinterpreted as racism or ignorance, it might accurately be perceived as naive. But then, most idealism is at least a little naive, and there is still a place for it. Sometimes we have to dream of things how they aren't, so we know what we are trying to achieve.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Sat Feb 27, 2016, 11:30 AM

42. The confederate flag is not gone. I just saw one yesterday and it's still up in ms

 

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