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SHRED

(28,136 posts)
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:09 PM Dec 2015

The brainwashing of Americans is breathtaking

Since the inception of the USA it has been engaged in the abuse and all out war against others.
Whether it be the Native Americans, slavery, attacks on the third world to extract natural resources, and of course the middle east.

But yet somehow many many Americans believe we are the "victims".
Bottom line is, and the cold hard truth is, our lifestyles here are at the expense of the poor.

"The rich man's living is the poor man's Hell" - Peter Tosh

77 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The brainwashing of Americans is breathtaking (Original Post) SHRED Dec 2015 OP
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #1
Yep SHRED Dec 2015 #2
To just categorize the actions of white Europeans as their own is victim blaming too daybranch Dec 2015 #7
To put a new twist on Bill's campaign slogan "It's the Oligarchy, stupid" Dont call me Shirley Dec 2015 #15
The Clintons are hifiguy Dec 2015 #20
Bernie ought to use that as his campaign slogan. On the other hand, he has more tact than that. Dont call me Shirley Dec 2015 #23
He's too much of a gentleman to point out hifiguy Dec 2015 #25
Great response... Thespian2 Dec 2015 #70
All they have to do is remember back to 1995... jtuck004 Dec 2015 #10
We overthrew the democratically elected Prime Minister and Parliment of Iran and Dustlawyer Dec 2015 #34
Huge +1! Enthusiast Dec 2015 #44
K and R SHRED Dec 2015 #65
And that was only the beginning! PaulRevere08 Dec 2015 #75
Saw an interview w/a white male tRump fan at a rally... Mika Dec 2015 #3
+1 daleanime Dec 2015 #6
The founding fathers of the modern Repig party explain this phenomenon hifiguy Dec 2015 #4
The Biggest Lie is: Reagan was a great president. Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2015 #9
Reagan was a complete, crooked fraud hifiguy Dec 2015 #11
They used to claim Reagan was their JFK. Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2015 #14
The very night Reagan was inaugurated I had a dream that the nazis were coming. Prophetic? Dont call me Shirley Dec 2015 #17
I drunk-typed a Thompsonesque rant hifiguy Dec 2015 #18
A subject and style which drunk-typing fits perfectly. Dont call me Shirley Dec 2015 #21
Would have liked to read that malthaussen Dec 2015 #61
I remember part of it was an angry screed about hifiguy Dec 2015 #62
Wow, i had a strange but memorable dream too! chknltl Dec 2015 #30
Yes, my dream was vivid and felt real also. It is still very clear to me today. Someday we will have Dont call me Shirley Dec 2015 #47
I like to remind rightwingnuts of Reagan's pedophilia griloco Dec 2015 #29
<reaching for brain bleach> Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2015 #41
Pony Mind Bleach always works for me. hifiguy Dec 2015 #51
Now I pictured a purple pony jumping on Reagan. Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2015 #54
"Trampling" is the proper term. hifiguy Dec 2015 #55
Now I pictured Reagan "riding" her while stroking her horn. Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2015 #57
.. . hifiguy Dec 2015 #59
But Reagan is all the Republicans have. If Saint Ronnie isn't great, then what? Enthusiast Dec 2015 #43
They never HAD anything. Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2015 #50
They could claim Lincoln but he doesn't fit their present day narrative. Enthusiast Dec 2015 #74
That's where karl rove Unknown Beatle Dec 2015 #33
Actually it's a bit the other way around... robbob Dec 2015 #67
Great post malaise Dec 2015 #5
Your last sentence. Exactly. NRaleighLiberal Dec 2015 #35
Hi there malaise Dec 2015 #42
Yes it is... ljm2002 Dec 2015 #8
So in other words, San Bernadino Blue_Tires Dec 2015 #12
How is San Bernadino even considered a terrorist event? truedelphi Dec 2015 #37
She, a Pakistani, was educated in Saudi Arabia. Who arranged the marriage? Wahhabi clerics? DhhD Dec 2015 #69
The OP didn't say that. Enthusiast Dec 2015 #40
You're correct I didn't SHRED Dec 2015 #76
The author unintentionally refutes his own point ConservativeDemocrat Dec 2015 #13
Your last paragraph is wrong. cpwm17 Dec 2015 #32
Go back and learn a little history, will you? ConservativeDemocrat Dec 2015 #49
President Truman helped push through the illegal UN resolution cpwm17 Dec 2015 #56
Ummm "Illegal" UN Resolution ? ConservativeDemocrat Dec 2015 #58
You are really off your rocker. cpwm17 Dec 2015 #66
You do realize that Jews were in Palestine too, right? ConservativeDemocrat Dec 2015 #73
Our bought and paid for media bears a lot of LibDemAlways Dec 2015 #16
Don't justify it. NYCButterfinger Dec 2015 #31
I am not justifying anything. I strongly condemn all terrorism. My LibDemAlways Dec 2015 #68
While the mic players are laughing all the way to their Swiss vaults. Dont call me Shirley Dec 2015 #19
Too bad Jimmy Carter's executive action plan to stop importing oil was reversed by Reagan ErikJ Dec 2015 #22
Recommended. H2O Man Dec 2015 #24
Excellent point SHRED Dec 2015 #53
It's pretty much ever been thus, though. malthaussen Dec 2015 #64
And of course the deaths of 14 in a single event are much more important n2doc Dec 2015 #26
It makes you want to say "Duh" all day long. Enthusiast Dec 2015 #38
Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2015 #27
Pirates and Emperors - Schoolhouse Rock: cpwm17 Dec 2015 #46
Yep. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2015 #48
Oh, my.....wasn't expecting something like that... dixiegrrrrl Dec 2015 #63
Love this, thanks for sharing! DawgHouse Dec 2015 #71
I so completely agree! mountain grammy Dec 2015 #28
K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast Dec 2015 #36
10,000-plus U.S. bombs --> In the Middle East that's known as "Tuesday" (n/t) kecpdx Dec 2015 #39
Yep. Sometimes when I'm driving my mind goes to how lousy some of this "system" can be. BlueJazz Dec 2015 #45
I think of McCain's hundred year comment on Iraq HassleCat Dec 2015 #52
The truth can hurt sometimes, we must own it, AuntPatsy Dec 2015 #60
I get all my news and personal philosophy from Tweets. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #72
Kick and R BeanMusical Dec 2015 #77

Response to SHRED (Original post)

daybranch

(1,309 posts)
7. To just categorize the actions of white Europeans as their own is victim blaming too
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:22 PM
Dec 2015

When Columbus reached the new world, he was doing the bidding of the rich rulers of Spain and his efforts were primarily to serve their desire for gold. He was evil but the rich people he served controlled the economic system, set the reward structure and determined what actions were acceptable. Columbus was not interested in converting people to Christianity as he was to getting them digging for gold. The church of the day promoted the serfdom of Europe and the rights of the rich as absolute and the efforts of the church to force conversion was part of the destruction of the dignity and humanism displayed and it too was necessary to serve the alliance of the Church with the rich. Later on we had a revolution which transferred power from the rich nobles and King who ruled England and the colonies to a new rich, of the former employees of the English, who then set out to make sure they could manipulate the white European population through a government heavily favoring property over people. And so it has been ever since. So quit criticizing us ignorant manipulated white people and turn your vision to the oligarchy who manipulate us today. Coincidentally these are the same rich people who donate large sums to Hillary's campaign. Say the Name and the name is oligarchy. We are all victims, wake up and vote for Bernie!

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
20. The Clintons are
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:14 PM
Dec 2015

the most faithful and toadying bootlickers of whatever oligarchs will best pay them. Twas ever thus.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
25. He's too much of a gentleman to point out
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:29 PM
Dec 2015
that much truth so bluntly. And he's more than smart enough to make the point more subtly than I feel is worth the effort.
 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
10. All they have to do is remember back to 1995...
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:39 PM
Dec 2015

Bombed Federal Building - downtown Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995. Killed 168 children and adults, injured almost 700.

Raised as a catholic and asked for a priest b4 he was executed - Timothy McVeigh, American Terrorist.

Dustlawyer

(10,502 posts)
34. We overthrew the democratically elected Prime Minister and Parliment of Iran and
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:59 PM
Dec 2015

installed a brutal dictator who killed millions of his own people. Now we "Hate" Iran and think that they are the ones in the wrong about everything.

We must break up the media oligarchy and end campaign donations.

PaulRevere08

(449 posts)
75. And that was only the beginning!
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 10:59 AM
Dec 2015

We backed Iraq in the bloody war with Iran and supplied the chemicals that were used to kill thousands of Iranians. We directly supplied military weapons and provided loans so Iraq could buy weapons from other countries that killed many, many more Iranians.

We shot down a commercial airliner that killed 290 innocent Iranians.

I remember calls to drop nukes on Tehran because they were embarrassing the US on TV with the hostages. Of which ZERO died.

 

Mika

(17,751 posts)
3. Saw an interview w/a white male tRump fan at a rally...
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:30 PM
Dec 2015

... expressing "who is doing the bombing, who is doing the beheading, who is blowing up stuff all over?"

Hmmm. I wonder too.





 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
4. The founding fathers of the modern Repig party explain this phenomenon
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:33 PM
Dec 2015




Everything the modern reichwingers and corporate neo-fascists - of BOTH parties - know they learned from these two.
 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
11. Reagan was a complete, crooked fraud
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:50 PM
Dec 2015

and nothing but the avuncular public face/frontman of the proto-fascism that was then in the advanced planning stages - the very sort of society we now live in. The Zombie King was to truly great presidents like Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt what Mini-Me was to Andre the Giant.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
18. I drunk-typed a Thompsonesque rant
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:13 PM
Dec 2015

shortly after the election in which I said that the Zombie King was the first marker on the road to an openly fascist US.

Great minds think alike!

malthaussen

(17,258 posts)
61. Would have liked to read that
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 09:17 PM
Dec 2015

In vino veritas, or something. Probably applies to hops and distilled beverages as well.

-- Mal

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
62. I remember part of it was an angry screed about
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 09:19 PM
Dec 2015

the immense dangers of having an ex-CIA director - Bush the Smarter - as VP. THAT was pretty prescient.

chknltl

(10,558 posts)
30. Wow, i had a strange but memorable dream too!
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:47 PM
Dec 2015

Same night, in this dream i am driving uphill to the college i was attending. Below me was a devastated Bellingham (the town i lived in). Strewn among the devastation were downed busted up B-52 bombers! I've not many dreams that are so memorable but that one stuck with me all these years.

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)
47. Yes, my dream was vivid and felt real also. It is still very clear to me today. Someday we will have
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 07:20 PM
Dec 2015

dreams of healing and thriving more real than our nightmares.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
55. "Trampling" is the proper term.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 08:14 PM
Dec 2015

This pony, Princess Celestia, can send others to the moon for indefinite and basically eternal time-outs, though she's usually the wise, benevolent philosopher-queen type. Gads, I am such a nerd.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
59. .. .
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 09:03 PM
Dec 2015

Celestia would send the Zombie King to the moon for a thousand years. She's done it for others.

And

Unknown Beatle

(2,672 posts)
33. That's where karl rove
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:57 PM
Dec 2015

got his playbook, from goering and goebbels. To say otherwise is to be completely blind. rove was the mastermind behind naming the US the Homeland.

robbob

(3,548 posts)
67. Actually it's a bit the other way around...
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 09:48 PM
Dec 2015

Hitler was a big fan of how the U.S. had eliminated its Native American population and confined them to reserves. It was partially the basis for his final solution.

malaise

(269,750 posts)
5. Great post
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:39 PM
Dec 2015

I was asking a friend the other night what we would have called those resisting the invasion and occupation during the German occupation of Europe?

He said let me see...the resistance?
Our inversion of reality has been so profound that anyone who disagrees with Western imperialism is now a terrorist and many in the US gladly repeat that bullshit.

This planet is totally fucked up.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
12. So in other words, San Bernadino
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:56 PM
Dec 2015

got what was coming to them because we bombed somebody somewhere??

Also, that tweet makes no sense because Trump was already batshit insane...

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
37. How is San Bernadino even considered a terrorist event?
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 06:15 PM
Dec 2015

That tragic event was instigated by two people who were not tied into a terror network, and were simply lunatics.

There have always been lunatics.

What has not existed up til 2001 is the vast group of overly funded US agencies that can create propaganda around an event like that, and come up with such nonsense as the "fact" that one of the perps joined ISIS over Facebook.

I mean, c'mon, does anyone really believe that people who are planning on bombing or shooting at an entire community join ISIS over Facebook?

 

SHRED

(28,136 posts)
76. You're correct I didn't
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 01:15 PM
Dec 2015

I figured with a post like this I'd get a few who think I sympathize with murderers and/or be accused of being a "blame America first" person.

Oh well, I don't and I'm not.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
13. The author unintentionally refutes his own point
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:58 PM
Dec 2015

The terrorist shooting at the abortion clinic didn't radicalize Americans, now did it? The radicals were just fine with that. Trump was a radical long before there came this new justification.

Same thing in the Middle East. Daesh arose in Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's home town. Same cat, different stripes.

And most terrorist attacks aren't against Americans. They're against other local Muslims.

Our bombs don't cause blowback. Our bombs ARE the blowback. Daesh violence has been dropping because we're killing the assholes. And yes, they're mad. So were the NAZIs and the Imperial Japanese. But all they need to do is disappear as an organization and start acting civilized, and we'll stop. Again, just like the now-peaceful Germany and Japan. It's really just that simple.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
32. Your last paragraph is wrong.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:57 PM
Dec 2015

The US has been abusing and bombing Middle Eastern nations for decades. The Middle East didn't become violent as it is now until after US, and other Western Nations, got involved.

It was the US that assisted Israel in its ethnic cleansing of Palestine and attacks against all of its neighbors. It was the US that overthrew Iran's secular government and installed the Shah. It was the US that supported the jihadist to fight the Soviet Union while they destroyed and took over Afghanistan. It was the US that supported the Jihadists to overthrow Assad in Syria and murder Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. It was the US that attacked Iraq, totally without provocation. I could go on.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

This “three-decade war for domination of the Middle East” becomes apparent when we consider how many Muslim countries the peace-loving United States and her “stalwart ally” Israel have bombed:...

Under Barack Obama, the U.S. is currently bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Libya. According to some reports (see here and here), we can add Iran to this ever-expanding list. [Update: An Informed Comment reader named Shannon pointed out that in fact the United States bombed Iran in 1988 during Operating Praying Mantis, an act that “cannot be justified” according to the International Court of Justice.]

Thanks to American arms and funding, our “stalwart ally” Israel has bombed every single one of its neighbors, including Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Israel has also bombed Tunisia and Iraq (how many times can Americans and Israelis bomb this country?).

The total number of Muslim countries that America and Israel have bombed comes to fourteen: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Iran, Sudan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Tunisia.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
49. Go back and learn a little history, will you?
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 07:45 PM
Dec 2015

The US was decidedly not pro-Israel until the mid sixties, after the PLO started exporting their terrorism everywhere. In fact, we acted to restrain Israel on more than one occasion.

The Shah was also a secular government, and then only after Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh had dissolved parliment, started ruling by decree, and was arresting all his political opponents. The Shah who was Iran's constitutional monarch had also been in agreement with Mosaddegh, but agreed to take over power when he was told that he was next on Mosaddegh's list to be jailed.

US opposition to the Soviet invasion was widely popular in the Middle East and seen as freedom fighting. Initially the resistance didn't have much of a religious character to it at all.

Your statement that "The Middle East didn't become violent as it is now until after US, and other Western Nations, got involved." is so overwhelmingly laughable, it is simply difficult to take you seriously.

It is patently obvious that you are anti-Semitic. But the Democratic party isn't. The vast majority of Democrats believe that Israel has the right to exist and the right to defend itself.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
56. President Truman helped push through the illegal UN resolution
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 08:20 PM
Dec 2015

declaring a Jewish state on land that was majority non-Jewish, which obviously severely violated the rights of the Palestinians. That was a terrible move that assisted in the Palestinian Nakba. Of course the Zionist terrorists attempted to seize all of Palestine, claiming legitimacy based on the illegitimate UN resolution. Later on, the US became much more deeply involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup, was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name "Operation Boot&quot and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project).

Mossadegh had sought to audit the books of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC), a British corporation (now BP) and to change the terms of the company's access to Iranian petroleum reserves. Upon the refusal of the AIOC to co-operate with the Iranian government, the parliament (Majlis) voted to nationalize the assets of the company and expel their representatives from the country. Following the coup in 1953, a government under General Fazlollah Zahedi was formed which allowed Mohammad-Rezā Shāh Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran (Persian for king), to rule the country more firmly as monarch. He relied heavily on US and UK support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979. In August 2013, 60 years after, the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) admitted that it was involved in both the planning and the execution of the coup, including the bribing of Iranian politicians, security and army high-ranking officials, as well as pro-coup propaganda. The CIA is quoted acknowledging the coup was carried out "under CIA direction" and "as an act of U.S. foreign policy, conceived and approved at the highest levels of government.


The US had a major role in spreading radical Islam and much of it was deliberate:



In the 20th century, Muslims didn't come close to standing out as more brutal than other groups. The current conflict in the Middle East is a recent phenomenon, unless you want to go back hundreds of years. The Western nations were difficult to beat in terms of violence, though no group had a monopoly:

If we're going to be pointing fingers of blame for the savageness of the Century -- and you know you want to -- raw numbers are probably not enough. There have been plenty of episodes of concentrated brutality that don't show up on the list above simply because the affected population is so small. Meanwhile, a major reason that Russia and China stand so prominently at the top of the list is that they have so many potential victims to begin with. Therefore, I've taken all the episodes of mass killing of the 20th Century and divided them by the population of the country that suffered the losses.

The 25 highest percentages of national populations killed during periods of mass brutality (20th Century):



If you look carefully at the chart with the intention of determining which race, religion or ideology has been the most brutal, you'll see a pattern emerge. It's quite a startling pattern, so I'd rather you find it by yourself. Go back and take a second look. I'll meet you at the next paragraph after I explain that, honestly, I did not manipulate the data. I simply took the most likely death toll (military and civilian) among the natives of each country (such as all the South Vietnamese -- ARVN soldiers, civilians and Viet Cong -- who were killed in the Vietnam War), and divided it by the population of that country (prewar). I didn't take, say, only the military dead, or only the victims of genocide. I didn't arbitrarily decide to split one horror into two in order to make each seem smaller (the only borderline case is that I calculated the Russians dead from WW2 and Stalin separately. A judgement call.), or eliminate countries of a certain size. No, I had no predetermined point to prove. I did the math and let the chips fall where they would. (Here are the raw numbers if you want to check behind me.)

That's why I was so startled to discover that there is absolutely no pattern to the chart. If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries; industrial and agrarian; big and small. We've got people of all colors -- white, black, yellow and brown -- widely represented among both the slaughterers and the slaughterees. We've got Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and Atheists all butchering one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof. Among the perpetrators, we've got political leanings of the left, right and middle; some are monarchies; some are dictatorships and some are even democracies. We've got innocent victims invaded by big, bad neighbors, and we've got plenty of countries who brought it on themselves, sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind. Go on -- take a third look. Find any type of country that is not represented among the agents of a major blooding, and probably the only reason for that is that there aren't that many countries in that category to begin with (There are no Hindu or Jewish countries on the chart, but then, there's only one of each on the whole planet, and they're both waiting in the wings among the next 25.).

In a way, it's rather disheartening to realize that we can't smugly blame the brutality of the century on the Communists, or the imperialists, or the Moslem fundamentalists, or the godless. Every major category of human has done it's share to boost the body count, so replacing, say, Moslem rulers with Christian rulers, or white rulers with black rulers, is not going to change it at all.


"It is patently obvious that you are anti-Semitic. But the Democratic party isn't. The vast majority of Democrats believe that Israel has the right to exist and the right to defend itself."

You write very few things on DU that are remotely correct, including that statement.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
58. Ummm "Illegal" UN Resolution ?
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 08:55 PM
Dec 2015

Okay, I get that you're anti-Semitic. Hell, you're more obvious anti-Semitic than the teabaggers on the Discussionist with their confederate flags are obviously racist. However, even this should be beyond you.

How exactly, can the action of the U.N. about land that Britain had sovereignty over (due to the collapse of the Ottoman empire) be quote "illegal" unquote? Do you even read what you write?

If you'd said "immoral", sure I might disagree with you, but at least it would make sense. Do you understand that for something to be illegal, there needs to be a law somewhere that actually applies?

I'm guessing that your hatred of Jews is just at such a fever pitch, you slap pejoratives on, without bothering to actually know what they mean.

In regards to the chart you brought up, you appear to have shifted your argument from "The Middle East was peaceful until western nations intervened" to "Nations in places other than the Middle East had wars". I can see why you might want to argue the second position, as it is clearly true, but that's not what you originally said.

To this end, let me also state that in addition to holding obviously anti-Semitic views(*), you are also fit George Orwell's classic definition of a Negative Nationalist, as he espoused in his essay Notes on Nationalism. I suggest you read it.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

/ (*) Reverse your position for a moment. Say that Jews had at one time conquered Mecca, and were engaged in a bombing campaign to pressure people take it into their possession, and whining that their freedom of movement was being denied because of the bombing campaign. Would you think destroying the nation of Saudi Arabia and turning over Islam's holiest shrine to people not of that faith, a form of Islamophobia? Well of course you would - because they're not Jews.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
66. You are really off your rocker.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 09:45 PM
Dec 2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker) is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms. It states that nations, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or interference which can be traced back to the Atlantic Charter, signed on 14 August 1941, by Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, and Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who pledged The Eight Principal points of the Charter.

The division of Palestine severely violated the native Palestinians' right to self-determination. I'm on a frickin liberal site and someone here doesn't even understand this simple concept? You should also look up the Golden Rule, and apply it.


"How exactly, can the action of the U.N. about land that Britain had sovereignty over (due to the collapse of the Ottoman empire) be quote "illegal" unquote? Do you even read what you write?"

That's some heavy authoritarian crap there. The British didn't own Palestine. The people that actually lived there are the only people that have a right to determine their own fate.

Nowhere is it completely peaceful and the US is one of the least peaceful nations. You were slamming the Middle East for being particularly violent. They actually have a recent history of being less violent than the West.

There is a good reason a number of Muslim countries have/had a diverse minority population going back many centuries. They had managed to get along better than in other parts of the world, including Europe. Powerful nations causing havoc against weaker nations doesn't help the situation.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/despite-wingnut-freakout-obama-right-christian-violence-just-bad-muslim-violence

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

It's weird that my defending Muslims against your bigotry is anti-Semitic in your view.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
73. You do realize that Jews were in Palestine too, right?
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 01:59 AM
Dec 2015

Again, your belief that Jews don't have a right to self-determination, only Palestinian Arab Muslims do... is about as clear an indication of your Antisemitic hatred there is.

And you literally appointed yourself as the sole-interpreter of the UN Charter, as opposed to the actual UN! Un-frickin-believable!

Here's the thing. The UN partition in 1948 could have worked had there been fewer people like you running around. A pokadotted landscape of little kibbutzes in a sea of otherwise "benign" Muslim-dictatorships could have worked. But the antisemitism whipped up by demagouges of the day was so strong, that instead of just living with each other, the arabs were goaded into attacking. The rest is history.


> It's weird that my defending Muslims against your bigotry is anti-Semitic in your view.

It's sadly expected that you are literally so overwhelmingly ignorant that you think Daesh is actually Muslim. I have it on some pretty strong authority from a number of US Muslim friends of mine. And by the way, the vast majority of US Muslims are also not anti-Semitic kooks who want to destroy Israel, so they're better than you.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

/p.s. Need I mention that the "Killed by Christians" pie chart is absolute bullshit? Communism was explicitly atheist, and that's the only way you get anywhere near that 102 million (although even he's also missing out on the Chinese Christians, in particular Chiang Kai-shek). If Mr Cole had simply made his pie chart explicitly racist, and talked about white people, he would have been more correct.

LibDemAlways

(15,139 posts)
16. Our bought and paid for media bears a lot of
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:09 PM
Dec 2015

responsibility. After 911 there was virtually no discussion on any media outlet about who the hijackers were, where they came from, and what drove them. Bush called them "evil doers" and that was enough for most Americans who went into uber patriot mode and didn't question politicians who immediately passed laws to erode our freedoms and ultimately went to war with a country that had nothing to do with 911. The vast majority of Americans remain clueless and still reflexively view themselves as morally superior despite the bombs, bullets, and carnage we have inflicted on the Middle East. It's an incredibly myopic worldview.

LibDemAlways

(15,139 posts)
68. I am not justifying anything. I strongly condemn all terrorism. My
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 09:51 PM
Dec 2015

intention was to point out that the American media does a very poor job of reporting facts, including the fact that Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
22. Too bad Jimmy Carter's executive action plan to stop importing oil was reversed by Reagan
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:18 PM
Dec 2015

he wanted the US to be 20% solar powered by 2000 and not import any more oil from the ME. Reagan reversed his plan the 1st year in office.

H2O Man

(73,805 posts)
24. Recommended.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:24 PM
Dec 2015

(With a special thank you for the Peter Tosh quote!)

You are, of course, right on target. And it's not just that many/most Americans define "reality" along these lines .....but they take it for granted that everyone around the globe sees it exactly the same way ....and therefore, anyone who rebels against this "reality" is, by definition, a "bad guy/gal."

malthaussen

(17,258 posts)
64. It's pretty much ever been thus, though.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 09:28 PM
Dec 2015

And it seems to persist not only in international affairs, but in intramural ones as well, as witness the Democratic primaries.

The idea that there is only one true reality, and that if one doesn't acknowledge it he is either a fool or a knave, has a long history in European discourse, and probably in that of others, but I'm not competent to comment on them.

I've always thought it was particularly ironic, given our subsequent history of suppressing indigenous freedom-fighters, that the rebels of the American Revolution are called "Patriots." But anyone else fighting to throw off the yoke of imperialist governments are "insurrectionists." But, hey: "Treason never prospers, what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

-- Mal

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
26. And of course the deaths of 14 in a single event are much more important
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:33 PM
Dec 2015

Than the same number or more that die from gunshots, preventable diseases, and lack of shelter every day in America. Some tragedies are more equal than others. Especially those that can be used to push the MIC's agenda.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
27. Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:39 PM
Dec 2015
Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist. You do it with a whole fleet and are called an emperor. ~A pirate, from St. Augustine's "City of God"

mountain grammy

(26,717 posts)
28. I so completely agree!
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:44 PM
Dec 2015

I think we had an awakening in the 60's, but were soon smacked back into submission. Then, it was 1980, and it's been downhill ever since.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
36. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 06:14 PM
Dec 2015

This is a brilliant post. I would hope some DUers might recognize these facts.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
45. Yep. Sometimes when I'm driving my mind goes to how lousy some of this "system" can be.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 06:35 PM
Dec 2015

I see people working their ass off who probably are very skilled in something that they'll never make any money at or any appreciation. I see sick people that can't get the help we need. I see people who screw their employees and never have to pay for their crimes. I see politicians who should be serving hard time.
Seems like everything is done to make the Rich more rich.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
52. I think of McCain's hundred year comment on Iraq
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 07:54 PM
Dec 2015

He said that's how long we should be prepared to stay, but it's more like how long we will face the consequences of our actions there.

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