Re: Violence

[H2O Man]

Quite a few community members here are old enough to remember films from the Vietnam War on the evening news. It became a part of American culture: middle class families watching the war while they shared supper. It helped people to really understand the horrors of the war that young men were being sent to fight. And, regardless of if one supported or opposed the war, the media coverage was important.

This evening, as is becoming disturbingly common, I sat down to my evening meal, and watched the coverage of today’s explosive gun violence. As I type these words, a talking head on television is saying this incident was not “terrorism.” This eliminates any confidence one might have in this expert’s opinion -- unless one suspects this was merely a family picnic that went wrong at its end.

In the mid- to late 1960s and early ‘70s, the media’s coverage of the Vietnam War helped to spark a conversation on American policy. This included, of course, discussions about the specific weapons being used. But the larger discussion took a more nationalistic versus holistic view of that war, and to both Vietnam and the United States.

In most, though not all, of the incidents -- ranging from police and the public, to attacks such as the recent one at a Planned Parenthood -- involve a specific type of weapons. Since DU:GD does not allow debates about “gun control,” I sincerely request that anyone who responds to this OP avoid that specific topic. Trust that others recognize it as a valid topic for other settings; more, that most people interested in such discussions, already has some firm beliefs already.

What would be interesting to discuss is the level of violence in the United States. While statistics indicate that the rates of violent crime have been dropping, certain types of violent outbursts appear to becoming all too common. School shootings did not seem as frequent, back in the days of the Vietnam War playing out on the evening news.

Certainly, one major difference is the combination of all-day news channels, along with the internet. It’s not just that one can find information about the current outbreak of violence, but it actually seems harder to shut that information out. The major news sources have on-site reporting, and often shallow analysis of the violence. There is also meaningful information available, though one usually needs to look hard to find it.

The internet offers everything from serious analysis of violence both domestically and globally, to some absolute nonsense. One of the best things about DU, in my opinion, is the ability of insightful and informed people to have those serious, interesting conversations on issues such as this.

This is on my mind today, for a few reasons. Obviously, the evening news is covering today’s incident. Another is that I spent much of today, hanging out with my cousin. You may recall that an off-duty cop shot my cousin and his son in October of 2014. My cousin, seriously wounded, held his son in his arms, as the young man bled to death.

Today was particularly had for my cousin. It wasn’t that today’s date was significant. It was just that the utter horror of losing his son this way was really hitting him today. (The shit-head’s trial is supposed to start next month.)

Violence of this type takes a huge toll on a family, a community, and a society. There are many, many causes of violence …..indeed, the United States has had, overall, a fairly violent history. I’d be interested in hearing your opinions on this topic.

Thank you,
H2O Man

[CTyankee]

1. I know, I know...had a gun violent death in our family...so we have a bond altho it is

difficult to make the connection...but we ARE all connected.

I'm so glad you are reaching out. I appreciate it very much. Lost my family member back in the 1990s. So long ago...

My brother lost his daughter. He was never the same. a few years later he died, a very broken man. It was so sad...

[H2O Man]

4. Thank you.

This morning, although I wasn't watching/ listening closely, I heard a clip of Donald Trump being played. I do not know if it was from very recent days, or what. No matter, I think it defines the thinking of Trump and his ilk.

He was saying that the US military not only needed to kill terrorists, but to take out their families ....that if the US doesn't wipe out the family, the violence that specifically kills a terrorist translates to creating a terrorist family.

Now, this is speculation on my part, but I'm thinking Trump was talking about ISIS or some similar foreign group, rather than, say, the domestic rabid right-wing christian terrorists. Call it a hunch, but I think I'm right.

It's important, for the sake of meaningful discussion, for people to realize that Donald Trump isn't planting these ideas in the minds of people who would never think this way otherwise. No, there is a growing number of citizens who have sick, twisted, hateful states of being. And while not all of the tragic deaths we see are a direct result of this social pathology .....but way too many are.

(It's a pretty big "club," and one that no one wants to belong to, isn't it? Those who have lost family to such gross violence. And I fully agree that we need to talk about it. I sure do.)

[BeyondGeography]

2. The Paris shootings were along the same lines, with some jive religion mixed in

Young men is one of the constants. I just think back to stupid shit that I got into when I was younger with other guys. Once we get wound up, it can be very difficult to wind down, particularly in a group setting with manhood on the line. That's an old story, but now there are so many ways to wind people up and the means they have access to are mind-boggling compared with back in the day.

With ISIS, e.g., the more you dig into it, the more you see the Internet playing a role, with violent imagery packaged as noble purpose. A WaPo journalist interviewed scores of foreign jihadists and all but one said his first contact with the group was watching ISIS-branded videos. They've created quite the template for outreach to the young and pessimistic (an ever expanding group). Expect it to be replicated no matter their fate.

Policy makers need to pay attention, to the extent that they sincerely care. Which is another problem.

[H2O Man]

6. Very good!

You bring up several key points. I really appreciate it!

I've mentioned on DU:GD that, as a youngster, I boxed. And I had a few fist-fights at school, almost all of them in my early years. By high school, I didn't get in fights with other students. But I retired from boxing after high school, and after a year "off," went to college.

In other words, my social life expanded. I wasn't the poor farm boy, who was in the margins. I hung out, including with people at college, and in my home town. The combination of alcohol and tensions between different groups of young men led to lots of really stupid -- and often violent -- conflicts.

Years later, after the racist hate group attacked my nephew, one of the concerns was that my nephew's friends would travel to the home-town of the hate group, and splatter a few of them. And I'm very serious when I say that more than a few of these young men would suggest doing that. My role had definitely changed: it wasn't that I wasn't at times tempted, but a big part of my efforts went into getting them to focus on the legal system.And though that system betrayed my nephew and his parents and brothers, we had at very least used the situation for serious public education. I made great use of television, radio, and newspapers. I wish the internet was more popular then.

Yet, as you note, social media can be both used and abused. No question about it.

Again, thank you very much!

[Gregorian]

3. A couple of things come to mind

I believe population plays a big role in this. I saw the world before it was developed to the extent that it is now. There was adventure. Around the 4 billion mark I began feeling crowded. I predicted increased violence, but I was 30 years off. I thought Reagan would be the thing that finally did it. Nope. But the pressure cooker is always in the background.

Another is one that's economic in nature. And that's children who don't have a parent at home. Or a home, but that's another thing. I had complete stability. I see children who never know a breast. I feel sad thinking about the possible problems that may result from improper nutrition as well as other nurturing. I think this is really at the heart of much of what we see. When both parents have to slave away to survive, not only are they not happy, but they don't instill that need for stability (my opinion). Dr. Gabor Mate discusses this in his book, I think it's titled Scattered...something. It's about how ADD isn't really a diagnosis that can be treated with drugs, but is the reaction of sensitive children to a messed up growing environment.

I think it's healthy to be willing to be wrong. I used to take myself more seriously than I do now. I think it's population. I would rather know the truth than be right. I'm sure it's many things.

Hope you're well.

[H2O Man]

7. Very interesting.

Thank you for this! I definitely agree with you regarding population. Density of inhabitants in a given area absolutely can create high levels of stress. And that can be closely related to another important dynamic that you mention -- poverty.

Family structure -- generally dictated, in large part, by an economic system -- is hugely important, as you note, in regard to the amount of support, and the level and quality of nurturing relationships, our culture provides its young.

And I'm doing fairly good; thanks for asking. How are things your way?

[Gregorian]

24. Grateful.

A month ago I emerged from a 25 year chronic illness. I can't believe it. I dedicated my time to find ways to become healthy, and until now was clueless. One thing lead to another (smart people doing science and sharing it on the internet), and I was given a second chance at life. Not that anyone should care. But life is all about health and improvement of our condition. In fact this isn't off topic in the sense that we live in a world full of poisons. Mine was stress related. But stress comes in food, thoughts, toxins, and on and on. Our modern world is bound to have tragic consequences for some. I now know what role health plays in how a person reacts to life's situations. I simply could not take in life due to physical imbalances and dysfuntions in my body. I often thought about how many people were in jail, or unemployed because there troubles stemmed from undiagnosed illness? It's high. I just read a book by Dr. Poesnecker. He discovered that a big percentage of Americans can only function on a fractional basis due to endocrine dysfunction. It's why some children do poorly in school. I happened to be the poster child of health until 34. In my own frustration over having lost my life, essentially, I did some things in the last couple of decades that I would never think of doing now that I'm clear and alive again.

I'm not saying the people who are violent have adrenal syndrome. But in combination with all kinds of things that begin in the womb, some just don't have the proper grounding needed in order to restrain one's ego from pulling the trigger.

A lot of things come back to corporate influence on a society. For some, money is the only thing that matters. I can't believe a company like Cocacola exists. But then I also had no idea why I was sick. People can say, I'm not going to eat processed food; I'm not going to allow my government to be a certain way. Together we make what we are. Some aren't killing. Until I knew why I was still sick, I couldn't change my situation. Those who don't control their behavior, and or don't value human life, or the consequences of taking a life, have failed to learn what we have learned: that it makes the world a worse place.

It's a tough subject since it's not a new phenomenon. I'm surprised it's not worse. I'm so sorry for your loss. Life teaches us lessons. They always suck. What I've learned is that we have to be kind to ourselves.

I'm making a custom drill press. My life lesson right now is to not be furious with the drafting program that is giving me fits.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

17. Even the more well off Americans tend to work a lot.

Seems like they could cut back the hours a little and afford it, but they don't. US is a workaholic country.

My general feeling is that Americans aren't all that connected to each other anymore. They don't care about each other all that much. I think the country is maybe too big for people to make those connections or maybe Americans have become too self centered. All these different states often have opposing interests. Government isn't working for us anymore and that is apparent. I think people are very frustrated because it seems no one is doing anything to solve problems. Of course, Americans elect people that are no good at solving problems because they have no idea what good problem solving skills look like. It seems to be a shitty enough situation that those who don't really have it together start to lose their marbles. I think a lot of people are lacking in good coping skills these days. I don't know why. Stressful situations just make them crazy and then they go off and cause more stress for other people... keep the cycle going in that way.

[H2O Man]

19. Good point.

Lots of people -- including relatively intelligent, educated folks -- are lacking in basic dispute resolution skills. Our culture has become increasingly "instant" since the late 1970s. This includes a level of consciousness that focused upon the moment, and which thus becomes frustrated when anything short of instant gratification.

Thank you.

[Gregorian]

25. Those are really observations.

You summed up a lot of what ails us. I felt it. Back in the 60's and 70's even.

[Ron Green]

5. Violence is both the cause and result of our toxic culture.

Economic inequality and debt-fueled consumerism are a bad mix, and the wall-to-wall coverage of this shooting while the deeper issues go unexamined shows this seamless marriage of entertainment and horror that passes for news today.

The television of the Vietnam War helped bring about its end; I don't know if today's media can accomplish the same thing - after all, violence has become their stock in trade.

[H2O Man]

8. Good points, Ron.

Thank you for adding them!

I'm particularly impressed with this phrase: "this seamless marriage of entertainment and horror that passes for news today." That's powerful. Very well said.

[Photographer]

9. Thank you for sharing this. You hit on a lot of truth here.

[H2O Man]

10. Thanks, Photographer!

Much appreciated.

[antigop]

11. we had a rule at our house...

NO TV while we were eating dinner.

[H2O Man]

14. That can be

a good rule. Had it growing up, and as an adult; everyone broke it.

Even if faithfully followed, a number of televisions are tuned in to the news in the evening, after supper.

I do think, related to an above post, it is interesting to read studies on support for children and youth, on family structure, and on how families do their evening meals. This is speculation on my part, but I suspect that cell phones disrupt "family meals" as much now, as television ever did. I think it is interesting to consider how these things may impact how people tend to react to various forms of violence, from nationally to locally.

[spanone]

12. K&R...

[H2O Man]

15. Thanks!

[elmac]

13. I grew up watching the Vietnam War on the evening news

and remember President Johnson's Gulf of Tonkin speech. The 60's was a turbulent decade and the 2010's isn't far behind.

[H2O Man]

16. Right.

Both Presidents Johnson and Nixon were seriously concerned that the nation was at risk. One thing I found interesting recently was found in the second, new book, "The Nixon Tapes," by Douglas Brinkley. It is evident that what concerned Nixon the most during "Watergate," was that John Dean would fully expose the Huston Plan -- which, even if one is convinced that Nixon was primarily concerned about dire threats to the nation, was unconstitutional ....and Nixon believed it was the only grounds upon which he could be impeached and convicted.

Strange days, the '60s. There have been some interesting discussions here, over the years, about 1968 specifically.

[Snobblevitch]

18. I was quote young diring the Vietnam War.

I remember watching Walter Cronkite with my dad and eat a few olives (he had a martini) with him. I must have been paying a little attention because my morher later told me that I had nightmares about being drafted and being sent to war. My mother had me doing something else other than watching the news.

These days, children are exposed to violence at a young age. I don't know how to make a connection between that exposure and gun violence.

H2O Man, I remember e-mailing the DA on your cousin's behalf. I hope he and his family can eventually find some sort peace in their hearts.

[H2O Man]

20. Thank you!

It meant a heck of a lot to my extended family, when the DU community sent the e-mails, sent letters in the mail, and/or called the offices of the DA and judge.

This November, the DA won re-election, running against a tea party challenger, who is connected to fracking. (I did a fair amount of the writing for the campaign.)

I think that people become desensitized to violence .....including children and youth who are exposed to images of it frequently. Now, that obviously does translate into every kid who plays video games becoming a risk to public safety. Not at all. But brain chemistry is curious, especially during those early years. Being desensitized can impact the way that individuals (and groups) respond to situations that involve violence.

[Snobblevitch]

22. I apologize if this is an insensitive request,

and if it is, please simply do not respond. I would be interested in reading about the trial of the man who murdered your cousin. You can provide a link, or not.

I cannot imagine losing a family member to gun violence, though my sister did die young and left a ten year old boy as an orphan. My brother and his family raised him

[H2O Man]

23. The trial is

scheduled to start in January. There is still a possibility that the coward will try to get a plea deal. I'm confident that he will remain incarcerated for the rest of his life.

When it comes up, I'll definitely be linking anything and everything I can. Hopefully, that will include court transcripts.

[BlueSpot]

21. Yes. We are violent.

When our government tells other countries to "do what we want or we will make war on you" how long does it take for the individuals living within the country to pick up on that attitude?

The U.S. has done this for years. Sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for not so good reasons. The people that serve in the military certainly pick up on that and I think most of the people at home do too.

We have become a nation of bullies (IMO) - collectively and, in some cases, individually. Used to be if you didn't like somebody, you'd punch them in the nose. Today, you shoot them. Yes, some of it has to do with mental heath and some to do with easy access to arms. But I think at the bottom of it all, it is culture.

A historian might correct me but, to my understanding, the "Wild, Wild West" period in which life was cheap followed the Civil War. The gangs of the 20's followed WWI. Life was pretty cheap then too. Why not a "life was cheap" moment after WWII? My guess would be the Holocaust. We saw the face of evil then and refrained.

I could well be wrong, but I think violence ultimately stems from war. I think I saw a graphic here recently that showed that the vast majority of time we have been a country has been spent at war with somebody. We beat people into submission. It's just what we do. If we do it as a country, why wouldn't we do it as individuals? It's built into our culture. And we've been through a lot of war during the past decade or so.