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Sun May 27, 2012, 04:46 AM

 

What I've learned about conservatives in the last few months

A few months ago, I received an (apparently mistaken!) ban from DU. Berift of a good place to talk politics and go back and forth with people, I decided to poke into the forums and discussion areas of "the competition." For several months, up until just a few days ago, I was engaging people on numerous right-wing websites. FreeRepublic,RightNation, Townhall and WND comment areas, even on the comments sections of various Youtube videos, and a few others besides.

I've reached the conclusion that we - that is, DU and the Left community at large - have made a pretty big error regarding these people. You think they're bad? I've discovered that they're much worse.

Go to any thread on DU (or your choice of left-leaning site) that talks about something a conservative is doing. You'll find people divining what that conservative is doing. "He wants to increase corporate power," or "they want to expand war in the middle east," or "she wants to make Christianity compulsory in schools." We take their actions and we examine them, and we assign motive. We approach those actions to try to figure them out, with the assumption that the people involved are behaving in some rational way.

Take for instance the frequently-wondered question, "why does the conservative 'base' consistently vote against their own self-interests?" It seems like a totally irrational thing to do, right, voting against your own interests? So we've come up with a narrative that helps us make sense of this phenomena; "the Republican party scares them with blacks / gays / muslims," or "the fundies think Republicans will 'save the babies'," or, of course "they just aren't educated about it." We rationalize their actions, in other words.

We're wrong. Dead wrong. Our assumption - that no matter how odd or self-destructive the behavior, conservatives have some rationale for it - is completely misbegotten. There is no "conservative plan." There is no agenda. There's no over-arching narrative from the right. if the Democrats are "playing chess," as the phrase goes, then I am absolutely certain it's a solo game, because there's nobody home on the other side of the board.

Let me be blunt. The conservatives are driven exclusively by hatred. There's nothing rational about it. Their only goal (if it can be called that) is to cause pain and distress, because they enjoy it. Even if it's their own. Sometimes especially if it's their own. Theirs is a worldview based around sadism. At every turn, they will with 100% certainly take the action that causes the most injury to the most people. They can always be counted on to say and do the things that will cause the deepest offense and pain. Not because they're clueless. Not because they're misguided. Not because they're "trolls." There is no "lol u mad bro?" at the end of what a conservative does. They're perfectly sincere in their desire to inflict and enjoy suffering.

When I say there is no conservative plan, I mean that. It's a sort of optical illusion. it's all these people, some with power, most without, all trying to get their jollies off by causing harm. Some methods are more effective than others, and so there tends to be a gravitation towards such things that gives the appearance of an "agenda" - but in truth it's a whole lot of random motherfuckers doing whatever it takes to get their "fix" for that moment.

The conservative voter voting against his best-interest isn't behaving with any sort of rationale. He's not ill-informed, he's not deluded, he's simply trying to get that fix; it's junkie logic. "If I vote this way, a lot of people will suffer for it, and that makes me happy. I'll suffer too, but that just gives me more fuel to hate with."

And no mincing here. I really do mean all conservatives. There are no "good guys" left over there. No straggling holdouts. The conservative movement has spent nearly forty years purging its ranks of any sort of reason, intellectualism, or empathic individuals, and has been growing more shrill, more hateful, and more harmful the entire time. If someone says, "I am a conservative," then they are simply hoping you will give them the benefit of the doubt that they 'aren't like those other guys' in order to make it easier for them to find some way to stab you and laugh. It always comes out that way.

We need to reconsider our approach. There really is no educating conservatives at this point. There's no way to engage in meaningful debate with a person who has defined their existence by expressing hatred. There's no way to compromise with someone whose only goal is to hurt you. They're lost causes, and we need to work around, rather than trying to engage.

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Arrow 108 replies Author Time Post
Reply What I've learned about conservatives in the last few months (Original post)
Scootaloo May 2012 OP
TBA May 2012 #1
Populist_Prole May 2012 #32
NewJeffCT May 2012 #52
nxylas May 2012 #2
obxhead May 2012 #3
lark May 2012 #104
B Calm May 2012 #4
quaker bill May 2012 #9
freshwest May 2012 #49
Scuba May 2012 #5
sarcasmo May 2012 #6
JNelson6563 May 2012 #7
DFW May 2012 #8
Mariana May 2012 #22
KT2000 May 2012 #60
DFW May 2012 #87
NNN0LHI May 2012 #10
SheilaT May 2012 #41
boomerbust May 2012 #11
The Doctor. May 2012 #12
xtraxritical May 2012 #62
Douglas Carpenter May 2012 #13
TahitiNut May 2012 #14
Motown_Johnny May 2012 #15
The Wielding Truth May 2012 #44
harris8 May 2012 #16
Martin Eden May 2012 #23
The Wielding Truth May 2012 #45
former9thward May 2012 #93
Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #47
ewagner May 2012 #17
Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #48
maggiesfarmer May 2012 #18
MrScorpio May 2012 #19
Prophet 451 May 2012 #20
pampango May 2012 #21
toddwv May 2012 #24
cocopuff May 2012 #25
annabanana May 2012 #55
Gregorian May 2012 #26
Ship of Fools May 2012 #86
jimlup May 2012 #27
Scootaloo May 2012 #34
Fumesucker May 2012 #28
hfojvt May 2012 #29
Scootaloo May 2012 #33
hfojvt May 2012 #35
Scootaloo May 2012 #36
hfojvt May 2012 #38
Baitball Blogger May 2012 #30
Kablooie May 2012 #31
pa28 May 2012 #37
GoCubsGo May 2012 #71
pa28 May 2012 #74
GoCubsGo May 2012 #88
Lydia Leftcoast May 2012 #39
TrogL May 2012 #76
proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #40
Phlem May 2012 #42
MannyGoldstein May 2012 #43
edcantor May 2012 #58
Phlem May 2012 #61
Cosmocat May 2012 #46
kentuck May 2012 #50
RagAss May 2012 #51
Stuart G May 2012 #53
xtraxritical May 2012 #64
Generic Brad May 2012 #54
Stuart G May 2012 #56
edcantor May 2012 #57
lunatica May 2012 #59
Phlem May 2012 #63
lunatica May 2012 #68
Phlem May 2012 #99
socratease May 2012 #97
calimary May 2012 #65
Manifestor_of_Light May 2012 #80
treestar May 2012 #94
ZombieHorde May 2012 #66
Live and Learn May 2012 #67
Doctor_J May 2012 #69
ThoughtCriminal May 2012 #70
socratease May 2012 #78
AdHocSolver May 2012 #72
Kablooie May 2012 #73
raouldukelives May 2012 #75
Johnny2X2X May 2012 #77
Scootaloo May 2012 #84
socratease May 2012 #95
Phlem May 2012 #90
cutroot May 2012 #79
Hawkowl May 2012 #81
socratease May 2012 #91
byronius May 2012 #82
NRaleighLiberal May 2012 #83
socratease May 2012 #92
dinopipie May 2012 #85
warrior1 May 2012 #89
ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2012 #96
TrogL May 2012 #98
cutroot May 2012 #100
B Calm May 2012 #101
Zalatix May 2012 #102
kctim May 2012 #103
Nye Bevan May 2012 #105
byronius Apr 2015 #107
yurbud May 2012 #106
byronius Apr 2015 #108

Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 05:04 AM

1. There is this woman at work

going on about how she supported the death penalty but then began complaining about the lethal injection process. She was appalled that the first injection puts the person to sleep. Basically, the inmate was not suffering enough for her.

I chimed in... "hey lets just bring back the Inquisition...we could put 'em on the rack and slowly pull them apart or maybe make them ride the iron maiden".

She was all about it. Seriously. Totally missed my sarcasm

When I told my kids they called it my "Stephen Colbert" moment.

I really think you are spot on in your assessment.

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Response to TBA (Reply #1)

Sun May 27, 2012, 02:41 PM

32. Wow, she is "out there". Poe's Law

Someone can be so nuts that they will take deliberate hyperbole seriously.

Funny you should mention her being appalled at the lack of "suffering" during lethal injection. My father, who has become one of the angriest, nastiest right wingers I've ever met anywhere, was commenting on the occupy movement's protests. He was irritated that cops don't carry big batons very much anymore. I mean, he was genuinely dismayed that "what they carry won't even break bones anymore" in an almost hand-wringing tone. I zinged him good though: I chuckled, nudged him with my elbow and said "Well well well. Trust you to take a sudden like to government when it comes to busting heads of citizens".

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Response to TBA (Reply #1)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:05 PM

52. That's not an unusual position

There are a lot of people out there who feel that no torture and no form of killing is too heinous for somebody convicted of murder.

I say this as somebody who's always been against the death penalty as an adult.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 05:44 AM

2. Correct on everything except "stab you and laugh"

Surely that should be "shoot you and laugh", given their almost sexual obsession with their guns.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 05:53 AM

3. "There really is no educating conservatives at this point."

 

Our only hope is to get to their children before they destroy there minds. It's the only way we can end the vicious cycle.

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Response to obxhead (Reply #3)

Tue May 29, 2012, 03:29 PM

104. Yep, that's the way

My mom and dad were Jerry Falwell Christians, totally as right wing as they come. I was right there with them, that's all I knew from church and home. Then, in the 9th grade I had a social studies teacher who told us about the difference between socialism and communism, I thought they were the same? Then he shared Joan Baez protest songs with us. He made me think for myself for the first time and I started my long trip to the left.

Proud to say I see my son educating the people around him in the same way that I was helped to expand my mind. Several of his friends & students who were total Repugs are now left wingers themselves.

Education, is the key. That's the main reason the Repugs want to end public education, not just the union issue. It's the biggest threat to their total dominion.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 05:54 AM

4. Battered Wife Syndrome

 

comes to mind when I think of these right wing fools. .

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Response to B Calm (Reply #4)

Sun May 27, 2012, 06:48 AM

9. Too generous

The wife in these situations is often redeemable, given an opportunity for freedom that she can trust. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a closer match.

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Response to B Calm (Reply #4)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:46 PM

49. It's the Democrats who have been given that label, though. Keep trying to work with the GOP beast,

Or the conservative mindset, believing change or redemption is possible. We hope it will learn to be more human after it sheds crocodile tears like Boehner or pleads it didn't really mean it like so many of them caught in lies. Or causing pain. Because we don't want to be like that.

We are only capable of seeing them in our own terms. After the heartfelt reconciliation, they administer the slap on the back (in what we hope is a spirit of camaraderie) with knife in hand, and guffaw at our naivete as they see more pain and terror inflicted. So who is insane, doing the same things, but expecting different results?

We have to work around them and find allies. In those cases where I am unavoidably around them, I act as if I'm in the lion's den. Because we are as proven by their actions. I think that we have indeed fallen into what Savage and others have called liberal ghettoes or enclaves, where we enjoy each others' support and work for positive change, while the sickness that is conservatism turned more septic.

Yes, that's harsh, but I've realized the people we fought years ago have not learned or changed by seeing what good has been done by forgiving or forgetting. They are just like the nightriders or the brownshirts. And they like being that way.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 05:55 AM

5. I also occasionally visit some other sites and I can confirm your diagnosis.

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 06:33 AM

6. When you read the right message boards, race, hate and stupidity all are tied for #1.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 06:40 AM

7. Good stuff, I enjoy your writing style.

Well done.

Julie

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 06:41 AM

8. I was thinking abour how very accurately this describes a guy I know

Maybe "know" is too strong a word. He's a guy I run into every year anyway. He'll be 67 this year. He was head of the "American Conservative Union," whatever that is, and (I looked him up) is now president of the NRA (how fitting). He's not stupid, and is probably wealthy. He started out as president of the far right "Young Americans for Freedom," and extreme rightist youth organization that had a few members when I took my one and only year at a boarding school. He worked for Spiro Agnew when he was VP, and he certainly was in his element there, it appears.

At this gathering we attend every year, which is known for requiring a civil, non-partisan atmosphere (I try, I really do LOL!!), this guy is known for being nasty to everyone who disagrees with him (that's most everybody)--I mean really evil, as in yelling at a member of the Obama administration the she was talking "bullshit" in an open and well-attended public forum. That is SO not what this gathering is about that the woman just looked at him with mouth agape, as did most of the rest of us. I am quite sure he still thinks he did nothing wrong, and would be amazed if there were any consequences (like not being invited back) for his behavior.

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Response to DFW (Reply #8)

Sun May 27, 2012, 10:31 AM

22. I've seen that kind of behavior from conservatives

who used to be relatively polite and respectful to other people. I wonder if years of listening to RW radio hosts badmouthing and being rude to anyone who disagrees with them had that effect. The listeners come to believe it's socially acceptable to treat people that way.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #22)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:05 PM

60. good point

They get their daily dose of belligerance and hate and feel the need to share.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #22)

Mon May 28, 2012, 07:16 AM

87. The guy worked for Spiro Agnew

I doubt he has been polite or respectful to anyone deviating from his line for many years now. Also, one of his big themes is little or no taxation. Now go back and remind yourself why Spiro Agnew resigned from the Vice-Presidency.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 06:48 AM

10. Honestly, this is the way it has been for over 30 years

Sure wish people had noticed this sooner.

Could have saved us all a lot of pain and suffering.

Don

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #10)

Sun May 27, 2012, 06:52 PM

41. Bingo!

 

It started with Reagan and has gotten worse ever since. I just wish more on our side would understand how long-standing and pervasive the conservative mind set is.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:17 AM

11. Spot on

People laugh at me when I tell them we are headed in the direction of 1930's Germany. Can't happen here? Wake the fuck up. It is happening here!

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:32 AM

12. Not quite, but very close.

 

It's more simple.

They have a 'sports fan' mentality. It requires no intellectual complexity of any kind to root for your team while wishing harm on the 'enemy'.. whoever they are.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #12)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:10 PM

62. That is my opinion too, they are driven by peer pressure not logic.

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:48 AM

13. Unfortunately, what you say is the case. It may not have always been the case - at least not with

every single Conservative. In the olden days there were those who had a theory about matters like free markets and what have you. Many of them genuinely had something of a philosophy. But they have pretty much been purged. As we see know - even when Democrats adopt essentially conservative-Republican policies - it wins no kudos from the conservative movement whatsoever. That certainly became crystal clear during the Clinton Administration - an administration that was in much respect to the right of Ronald Reagan in actual policy. But that mattered nothing to them.

I think of one of the recent "Primary debates" - Ron Paul who along with his batshit craziness does have some brief moments of lucidity - stated that our foreign policy should be based on the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The audience of course predictably broke into a loud course of booing and jeering. My goodness, do they even realize that they are booing the words of Jesus?


Great Post btw.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:07 AM

14. The word is "sociopathic."

Indeed, the reactive antipathy for "socialism" is, quite literally, sociopathology. What makes it a 'pathology' is the harm to themselves (and others) inflicted by the choices made. Those choices are, invariably, based in some kind of antipathy for anyone else - the Other.

At the same time, let's not confuse the exploiters with the exploited. Those "useful idiots" who spew their antipathy on the 'tubes' from the safety of a keyboard (the Keyboard Brigadiers) do so with a "joie d'morte" akin to the Vandals or Berserkers ... feeling at their core a deep-seated impotence and channeling their narcissism in "making a mark" in the world through the destruction of the edifices of the 'elites.' They're the Brown Shirts ... given their uniforms by a demagogic cadre in the employ of the Military Industrial Complex of this day which in involved in transnational neocolonialism -- the Banana Republicans.



Afterthought: Let's not be hasty in condemning those who vote against their "self-interest." At least superficially, some white males who vote against their self-interest could be called "liberals." There's nothing inherently 'liberal' about a woman who advocates for equal pay, choice, or Title IX. There's nothing inherently 'liberal' about a minority who advocates equal rights and anti-discrimination. Liberalism, however, is about enlightened (in the Niemuller sense) self-interest -- standing up for the "level playing field" and the rights and liberties of demographic groups of which (s)he's not a member. We should always remember the two-edged sword of demographics. As we stand up for the equal rights of women and minorities, let's not forget that the attitudes of those recently included in the "melting pot" often come from (and carry) a culture of discrimination and overt bigotry. The long-standing sexism in Japanese and Middle-Eastern cultures is well-known. Likewise, the racial bigotry in many other cultures is long-established and well-known. As we recognize the inequities of our own institutional heritage against those recently-arrived, let's not forget the amplified sensitivities of those accustomed to ethnic privilege in their cultures of origin. Likewise, let's alos not forget that the motives of those emigrating to the US from countries that've undergone a major political shift from an autocratic/authoritarian regime to a "leftist" political predominance may be based in their desire to preserve their own privileges. I'm always conscious of those Cubans who benefited from autocratic Batista's corruption and who escaped ninety miles northward in the late 50s show a remarkable propensity for a political alignment with the far right -- having at least 'preserved' a cultural world view that aspires to the dystopian regime they enjoyed.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:17 AM

15. For the masses, you are right. For their leaders, you are wrong.

 

The ones in power do have plans. The idea that destroying the unions right after Citizens United was decided is just a coincidence is shortsighted at best.


Maybe our counterparts on conservative sites are without focus but that is why they are so useful to the ones making the plans.



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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #15)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:23 PM

44. Yep.The plan they have is sold and bought by Republican leaders who then sells it to the T_Pty.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:30 AM

16. I disagree

I am pretty sure there are many clueless or misguided "conservatives" who are not driven by hatred.

An example: I recently visited a distant relative, a very kind and sweet man in his 80's who has spent his life helping his kids, grandkids, neighbors, anyone who asks.

However, he is totally in the tank with Faux News and every "conservative" email spam he gets. He literally wrings his hands saying "How are we going to get that guy out of there?" (referring to Obama), and when asked why, he simply lists the latest 2 or 3 "Obama is a socialist/abortionist/communist that is destroying our great country" talking points he heard on Faux. No content, no facts, no reality. He sincerely believes everything he hears there, and any facts I attempt to counter him with he dismisses as "librul media".

He is not stupid; he had a successful career as a businessman, and continues to make a modest income playing the market, reading WSJ & IBD (more "unbiased" resources!) every day.

I really cannot see a glimmer of hate in this man. He is not a racist. And I'm quite sure there are many many more like him.

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Response to harris8 (Reply #16)

Sun May 27, 2012, 11:14 AM

23. Yep, some folks have simply swallowed the propaganda hook, line, and sinker

And it is too deeply embedded (especially in older people) to be yanked out.

For decades the right and their mouthpieces at Faux News and talk radio have been hammering home a narrative that paints "The Left" as America-hating godless socialists and paints "conservatives" as the champions of family values, Christian faith, and American patriotism.

Their entire political belief system is built on this false foundation, and they sincerely believe that Barack Obama is a greater threat to this country than any external enemy. It is human nature to hate the traitor within with more intense passion than the enemy without.

Millions of voters have been completely duped by the constant stream of rightwing propaganda. They are impervious to facts and rational arguments that challenge their political beliefs, because it is extremely, extremely, difficult for anyone to admit to themselves they have been played for a fool and everything they have embraced is a steaming pile of lies.

These people are not intrinsically sociopathic, but they have been conditioned to behave that way in the political areana. It is a mob mentality in which normal people can be manipulated into serving the interests of the real sociopaths who pull their strings.

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Response to harris8 (Reply #16)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:25 PM

45. Propaganda is still illegal. Why is there no prosecution of FOX?

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Response to The Wielding Truth (Reply #45)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:26 PM

93. What country are you posting from?

Propaganda is not illegal in the U.S. It is called the First Amendment.

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Response to harris8 (Reply #16)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:41 PM

47. I'm sure he is just as you say, but I'm just as sure that he is not representative

 

of the extremist radicals that call themselves conservative today. He is a minority within a minority.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:28 AM

17. Excellent Discussion going on here...

I tend to vary slightly with the thesis of the OP only in that I think the conservative rank-and-file are indeed the useful idiots of those who do possess a very well-defined ideological agenda. I cite the Chicago School of Economics and point to the philosophies of Von Hayek and Milton Friedman and how they have tried to implent Free Market or "Austrian" economic principles all over the world. There is indeed an ideological agenda and the rank-and-file conservatives are the legitimizing force to keep them in power.

Hate and bigotry are only the tools they use and they are damned effective tools.

Another poster said it reminded him of what was happening in 1930's Germany...remember this: the movement the led to WWII was egged on by the industrialists of the country...sound familiar?

I've always been troubled by this clip from the movie, Cabaret...not just by the image but by the clip at the end where the wealthy industrialist is asked, "Do you still think you can control them? He cannot answer.

Enjoy



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Response to ewagner (Reply #17)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:43 PM

48. Exactamundo!

 


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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:31 AM

18. I try to remember that internet posters are not necessarily a representative sampling of

larger groups of people. that applies to conservatives and liberals alike, at least that's my experience.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:55 AM

19. I am so very glad that you've found DU

I have written essay after essay detailing the exact same conclusions that you have arrived at.

Thank you for this very cogent and excellent analysis.

I look forward to reading a lot more of your work in the future.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:59 AM

20. Partly true, I suspect

I suspect that the rank and file of conservatism hates everything liberals like purely because liberals like it. At some point, it became about hating liberals and liberalism rather than about pushing ideas (which is convienient since they don't really have any ideas).

That said, one must draw a dividing line between the rank and file you interacted with and the leaders. The leaders, while they often have the same self-motivating hatred of liberals/ism, actually do have plans. Mainly their plan is to repeal the 20th century.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 10:07 AM

21. "the Republican party scares them with blacks / gays / muslims," - so true.

I would add - feminists (women in general?) and Hispanics - basically anyone from whom straight, white, male conservatives have to "take the country back".

If the 1% are taking almost everything, they want to discussion to be about getting the rest of us to fight over the remains rather than why they are getting so much to begin with. Many in the conservative base buy into this tactic. "If we limit how much the blacks, gays, muslims, women and Hispanics get there will be more for us even if the 1% get to keep their disproportionate share."

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 11:40 AM

24. I mostly agree.

One point that I'd like to bring up, though, is that there are "good" conservatives. However, these conservatives who aren't batshit raving psychopathic racist sexist lunatics tend to be a minority in the right-wing now. As a result, they are shouted down and ofter shouted out of the "tent". They leave these forums in disgust and revulsion and the detritus that is left are the people that you have described. These people then gleefully call their like-minded friends to come join the fun and fill in the gaps with the same kind of raving mentality.

There is no way to reach the right-wing, however, there are those center-right who are now considered "liberals" by their unapologetically hateful "brethren". We may not bring them into our fold, but maybe we can at least keep them from voting for the right-wing ilk who have gone off the deep side.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 12:39 PM

25. the problem with absolutes

 

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I would be careful when using absolutes such as stating that there are "no [conservative] good guys left". Your entire article is defined by "absolutes" which does not lend credibility to your argument because it is centered completely around your ontological viewpoint without any qualifying or quantifying input. What this does, is make your argument easy to dismiss because your world view is not shared by all and is hardly absolute. This has been illustrated by other members who do not share your same viewpoint or experiences when they mention people they know personally that do not fall into your opinion of "conservative".

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Response to cocopuff (Reply #25)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:23 PM

55. Well.. I maintain that he is in essence, if not virtually correct.

One has to look far and wide to find a person who identifies as a "conservative" who is capable of positing a cogent argument in support of the batshit crazy policies being espoused by the Republican part of today.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 01:27 PM

26. Many voting conservatives are too dumb to know that they are actually liberals.

I know at least one. My aunt married a conservative man. She simply followed along due to just never exercising her brain. She idolizes my father, who is about as liberal as they get. He has tried to open her eyes, but she just keeps the door closed. She's the kindest, nicest, friendliest person on the planet. So much so that she has given away most of her wealth. But she votes conservative.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #26)

Mon May 28, 2012, 07:11 AM

86. Exactly!

A friend of mine thinks liberal but buys in to the *label* of conservative. Weirdest
damned thing....

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 01:33 PM

27. I agree but my only question is this:

Are they really all bad. None are just naive and misguided? Not even in the corners of the movement?

I guess I'm left wondering how come they get so much support. Are their really that many haters in the world? Or is that they are the political seeds of the conservative voting block? If they are only motivated by hatred - how do they convince others (a majority of the South for instance) to follow them. Or is it that the sheeps that follow them are the true sheeps?

Seriously curious as I enjoyed your piece very much and felt that it contained quite a bit of critical insight.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #27)

Sun May 27, 2012, 04:35 PM

34. For a case study; my mother (sorry, mom!)

 

Okay, disclaimer, she's not a conservative by any stripe, and doesn't get off on others' pain. However, she kind of fits the bill for what I'm talking about (sorry, mom!)

My mother has a terrible habit of self-sabotage. She always thinks the worst of people, is convinced everything's going to go wrong, and invents things to get stressed about. She'll take the smallest thing - her boyfriend calling later than she expected - and given enough time will turn it into this huge thing. She carries hatreds and grudges from her high school years still - she graduated in '73. She's psyched herself out of all sorts of good situations. If you let her, she'll sit and stew over 57 years of her life not going how she planned it, and she'll just get angrier and angrier with every passing minute.

Essentially, she can't be happy unless she's found some way to be miserable. I'm sure there's psychological terms for this, and I really wish I could get some help for her, but... well, trying to get a perpetually-angsting 57 year old woman in another state who also happens to be your mother to find a psychiatrist is certainly not easy at all.

I think there's something similar going on with the conservatives I'm talking about. They're just not happy unless they're angry. They like to lash out and see others hurt because it validates their anger and makes them feel better and powerful, without actually diminishing the anger.

These guys are Jake "the Muss" Heke.
[img][/img]

Self-sabotage, invented stress, paranoia, perpetual anger, and pleasure from misery. What the hell can you call that?

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 01:44 PM

28. ...

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 01:56 PM

29. so basically you mean

they live on the other side of the lake

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=journals&uid=157743

Where the sub-human monsters are.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #29)

Sun May 27, 2012, 04:18 PM

33. Gosh, you've got me!

 

If only I would sit down and talk with conservatives, I would learn that they're no different from me! That they are actually perfectly reasonable people, and it's just ME being mean and irrational! Golly! Why, if I just tried to understand them and see where they're coming from, I'd see they're great people with strong ethical foundations and perfectly reasonable stances!

Ahem.

There's this guy at work. I have no idea of his political affiliations. Not too long ago a few of us were in the break room talking about a co-worker who had gotten fired for what most of us feel were BS reasons. We're talking, and this guy chimes in with "Yeah but she was cute. Man, I would have raped that ass ALL day."

Do you think we stopped what we were doing to give this guy some sensitivity training? Take time out to explain to him why what he said was wrong? Or maybe search our souls for some way to 'understand where he was coming from'? No. Someone else looked at him, said "dude, shut the fuck up," and we went on with what we were doing, choosing to not engage the jackass beyond that point. He's simply a lost cause. There's not going to be any real hope of "reforming" him into someone who has tolerable opinions of women. The effort could be made, but it'd never sink in, making it a waste of time on the part of whoever's trying. "Shut the fuck up, dude" covers all the ground that needs to be covered with him.

That's how I'm seeing conservatives at this point. There was a time when I would have wrung my hands and tried to 'find the good' in them, some common ground that would enable us to have a dialog and reach some useful positions together. I've tried. And tried, and tried, and tried. I used to think that gosh, if only I presented them with facts and figures and history and reason and logic, they would understand that some of their positions are wrong. Even after i got all crotchety and bitter about it, I thought well at least they have some goals that could be discussed.

Experience has triumphed over idealism in this case. It's not that they are sub-human monsters. It's that they are sociopaths and sadists who aren't going to be reformed by the rest of us trying to talk nicely to them. Better to just tell them to shut the fuck up, dude, and walk around them.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #33)

Sun May 27, 2012, 05:01 PM

35. yep, when you're a Jet, you're a Jet for life

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/122

Ironically enough, if I close my eyes, I can imagine people in the other gang

making the exact same argument http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Talk_to_a_Liberal_(If_You_Must)

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #35)

Sun May 27, 2012, 05:29 PM

36. hfojvt, I have just one question

 

Upon seeing your avatar, has a Sharks fan ever expressed the sentiment that they would love it if you were abducted, raped, beaten, and left for dead in an alleyway somewhere? Have they? have you ever come across that in your journeys, someone who admires another sports team wishing you gratuitous physical harm, possibly even once they find out you kind-of like the Jets?

Because I've gotten it pretty regularly from conservatives.

We're not talking about "team mentality" here, friend, and yours is one of the arguments that I consider sorely mistaken. It's not two geeks arguing over who would win in a fight between The Hulk and Wolverine. it's not sports fans calling each other dumb for liking the other team. It's not two tribes separated by a lake.

It's about some people who want to cause harm to others in order to gain pleasure for themselves. You want to throw Ms. Coulter's book at me? Fine, but I suggest you fucking read it first. Have you ever read any of her books? I've borrowed "Treason," "How to Talk to a Liberal" and "Godless" from the library, as part of my effort to learn about the people who I once thought were just "on the other side of the lake."

They're paeans to one woman's absolute, savage hatred of everything and everyone she considers "liberal." And she is conservative mainstream.

if you're content to just stroll around patting yourself on the back about how enlightened you are, more power to you. Maybe you could do me a favor; take that enlightenment, show it to a lot of conservatives, and get them to change their minds. I'm sure it'll work for you.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #36)

Sun May 27, 2012, 06:14 PM

38. nah, that could never happen

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7811178/beaten-san-francisco-giants-fan-bryan-stow-son-throws-first-pitch

As for my theory, I have tested it out on my head many times, by writing letters to conservative papers and running for office in conservative districts. In fact, I am strongly considering running in the next election, depending on the availability of other candidates.

And as for being able to win over conservatives, you might look at the last Governor's election in Kansas. The conservative Same Brownback got 530,780 votes and the moderate Tom Holland got 270,166.

You, apparently, are gonna throw up your hands and paint all of those conservative voters as a bunch of sadists because you "met" a few people willing to type some excrement online under cover of anonymity.

But in 2006, Kathleen Sebelius, the moderate Republican running as a Democrat, got 491,993 votes against the conservative Barnet's 343,686 votes and in 2002 she got 441,858 votes to 376,830 for the conservative.

So apparently, some conservatives can be won over at least enough to vote for a moderate over a conservative.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 02:04 PM

30. Yep. It's all slight of hand with them.

They claim to uphold the highest standards, when the truth is they cheat, cheat, cheat.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 02:24 PM

31. The online contributors are probably the worst of the worst.

Just like here, the contributors are more dedicated to political views than the majority of the public. Most conservatives, like most liberals, don't actively contribute to the conversation.

The problem is that the most vocal are the ones that set the tone of the conversation for everyone else.There probably are less evil conservatives out there but they don't have a voice in the discussion any more.

This pure hatred comes from the same place as the Muslim extremists. It seems we are surrounded by hate from all sides right now.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 05:34 PM

37. I never understood Republicans until I caught on to this point.

Once you realize what their true motives are you'll never be surprised or shocked by their behavior.

The Republican approach to public policy only makes sense when you understand the starting place is always "who can we fuck over?" They'll wrap it up in a nice package from the American Enterprise Institute but they all know it's really about making sure every single union worker is flipping burgers at McDonalds within ten years. After that they want to make sure he spends two or three miserable years shaking a tin cup. That idea makes them feel good.

They want to see people get thrown out of their houses and have their pension funds stolen by billionaires because it's unjust. Injustice is not something to be avoided for them. They like watching other people get crushed.

Their own love of seeing people they hate get punished outweighs the realization most run of the mill Republicans are getting screwed over as well.

Last year somebody posted an article here called "we the spiteful" that explains the whole thing really well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x250887

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Response to pa28 (Reply #37)

Sun May 27, 2012, 11:35 PM

71. I know that firsthand.

Some Bush flunkie got pissed off at a former colleague of mine over a stupid joke regarding some of his research results this shitstain didn't like. The ratbastard got the funding for our whole fucking lab yanked over that petty grudge, and about 80 of us lost our jobs. Some of us, myself included, were completely ruined by it, even though we had nothing to do with it. I am sorry I don't know who this fucking fucker is, because I would love nothing more than to be able to watch when Karma comes back around and displays her bitchiness to him.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #71)

Mon May 28, 2012, 12:01 AM

74. I know there are plenty of more damaging examples out there but I've seen it firsthand too.

Remember when Martha Stewart went to jail? During that time I had offhand conversations with lots of conservative acquaintances and they always wanted to steer the conversation to Martha Stewart. It kept coming up.

They were jubilant over the fact she was going to get locked up. I'd talk about lax enforcement, widespread malfeasance and the fact very few others have been jailed over the same type of behavior. None of that mattered. It was all about Martha getting nailed and them laughing about it.

Every time the exchange seemed to end with some paraphrase of 'you just don't get it'.

The thing is I did get it.

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Response to pa28 (Reply #74)

Mon May 28, 2012, 07:56 AM

88. Martha had the last laugh.

I remember it all well, too. I really wasn't a fan of her at the time, but I remember thinking that she was getting screwed. It was a witch hunt, and I remember the right-wing jubilation over it, too. But, I think the whole episode made her stronger for it. Most sane people saw it for what it was, and she got a load of sympathy from them. Not to mention a ton of publicity. And, now her empire is as strong as ever. I'm sure that kills her detractors that it didn't destroy her. It is true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 06:27 PM

39. The people at the top of the conservative movement really are that mean

as are some of the followers. The naked selfishness, greed, racism, sexism, jingoism, militarism, and in-your-face offensiveness just shine through everything they do and say.

But a lot of the rank and file are simply propagandized. My right-wing brother is really kind and generous, but we don't talk politics, because the conservative tape loop starts playing. It all started when he began working selling ads for a talk radio station and intensified when he got a job that required him to drive around all day. There's a disconnect between what he says and how he acts in real life.

I'll never forget the time (2002) my stepfather had an old friend visiting from out of town. (I was also visiting.) A propos of nothing at all, the man said, "I think Bush has proved himself since 9/11. He's really grown in stature." I didn't want to gag or otherwise be rude, but I simply asked,"What do you mean?" (Because I had heard exactly the same phrase in the MSM many times.)

He got good old deer in the headlights look and couldn't answer.

One of very Leftist friends says that whenever he meets a conservative who is spouting right-wing nonsense, he just calmly asks questions, "What's your source for that? What are your reasons for thinking that? Does that gibe with your own experiences? How have the (insert name of object of rage here) ever hurt you? Explain what you mean by 'Obama's a Marxist.' Have you read anything by Marx?" He says that either the person's head explodes and they are reduced to a stammering puddle of incoherence or they get fed up and walk away.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #39)

Mon May 28, 2012, 12:32 AM

76. they "think" by stringing together memorized slogans

Two conservatives talking consists of them trying to trump each other with the best slogan. They listen talk radio to gather more tokens. You cannot have a rational discussion with them because they expect you to react to one of their slogans with another slogan, not logic.

One of their favourites is to push-poll "don't you think..." to which the only winning response is "no, I don't".

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 06:46 PM

40. You are 100% correct.

I don't think I will ever get used to their hate. It drives what they believe and what they do. Just shear hatred.

The most recent example was posted here a few weeks back. It was the story of a city in Texas that had turned down federal funding for a program that provided transportation to the elderly and disabled for their medical appointments. Many communities have such a program. This particular city council was dominated by tea party folks who said no to the federal funding and refused to pay their share (it wasn't much, like maybe $8000). So the program was discontinued. And when the media interviewed the city council folks, they said it wasn't the local money they didn't want to spend or the federal money they didn't want to accept. They said that people just needed to learn to take care of themselves without leaning on the government for support.

Now what other than shear hate would make anyone refuse to help the elderly and disabled? Sure people should take care of themselves WHEN THEY CAN but we are talking about some of the most helpless among us. And several of these tea party city council folks said these people needed to take care of their own needs. I guess we can hope the people in wheelchairs can just roll down the sidewalk to their next doctor's appointment?

Just unbelievable hatred. I can't even wrap my brain around it.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:01 PM

42. The price of freedom for us is

forever vigilance of the ignorant masses, and those who try to steal it away. We must fight every day for it and must always be aware.

-p

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:04 PM

43. Yes; but we need to ask why they're so angry

 

They're angry because their lives suck, and are getting worse.

The reason their lives are getting worse is from 30 years of unrelenting growth in far-right policies.

But the Republicans say it's because of the Democrats, and the Democrats say "yes we need to be more right wing" so it makes the Republicans sound correct.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #43)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:41 PM

58. No, you overestimate their understanding of the world.

 

They are angry because a black man is in the White House. And they are angry they didn't win a contest for a million dollars like all the rest of the idiots of TV did.

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Response to edcantor (Reply #58)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:09 PM

61. Perfect.



-p

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:36 PM

46. I have been saying this for years

people give them A LOT more credit in terms of some kind of broad based strategy.

I do think there are some of the higher ups who think along those lines.

But, 99% of "conservatives" just are wired for the BS the party advances.

No real thought beyond how horrible the evil liberal boogeyman is.

I know A LOT of truly good people, caring, kind, generous, great in the community, and people who are genuine friends to me. People who we are infinitely more alike than not. But, they are republicans, and while I think at heart they support more of what the democratic party advances than what the R party advances, they are lock step republican voters.

I have tried to figure it out, but there is no figuring it out.

The Rs simply have found some core issues that bring people to their fold in total. And, there is really no rational discussion that can change their minds.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 07:49 PM

50. Who called that picolo player a piano player...?

Anyway?

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:01 PM

51. I think of their hate as an opiate.

Addicts know what they do is fucked up - but they still can't stop it.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:08 PM

53. We need to define "conservative"

There are those who we would have called "conservative" in the old thims..
like, "Berry Goldwater" or recently..Lugar...willing to compromise for the good of the country..(let's call them "old timers"]

and then those who are right wing "sociopath conservatives.." teabaggers, if you will or the entire
modern Repuk party..(except for those "closet "old timers"..

I think some of the current crop of PUkes.. would be "old timers" but they are scared (those in Congress I mean) of loosing
their position in a primary to the current "sociopaths". Money is the determining factor along with hate.

Corporate Media allows and supports the "sociopaths" by allowing most of their ideas to be "legitimate" Allowing Cantor and
his ilk to honestly put out ideas that we can default on the debt..that this idea of debt default is a "legitimate stratgy to combat
the debt",, is proof of the media supporthing the "sociopaths" ...If the corporate media were..."honest" and not supporting the
sociopaths..then we would see them asking the kinds of question that would tear Cantor and his ilk apart..

Like, "How can you be patriotic and at the same time want our country to go through that again?" Or words that are similar and
stronger..Good reporters could come up with some, but they won't...cause the moderators are owned by corporate media and
earn millions..They would loose their jobs if they asked Canter and his ilk, the rough questions..and followed up to make them
look rediculous...

However..if the sociopaths make public mistakes...modern internet communication can sidestep the corporate media and overcome the
sociopaths..Just ask George Allen about his "macacca statement..".

We can win, but it won't be easy fighting the sociopaths, the haters and the money all at once..(end of rant)

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #53)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:29 PM

64. Murdoch is "the corporate media" does that explain it for you?

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:08 PM

54. You have described my family to a "T"

I walked away from them in 2005 after repeated racist rants against my wife and daughter, being called a "baby killer" because one of them suspected I may have voted for Democrats, etc. Harassing my foreign national wife and I and blaming "people like us" for all of their problems became blood sport. They were Tea Partiers before the Tea Party was invented.

They were never interested in compromise or common ground - only inflicting pain and humiliation. I have no interest in spending any time with people who are intent on making me and my wife suffer for no discernible reason at all. When you experience a lost cause up close and personal, your options become very clear, very fast.

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Response to Generic Brad (Reply #54)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:27 PM

56. The hate of the baggers is not "new" the huge money supporting them is...

The" hate"...was a minority and probably still is.

babylonsister posted this article elsewhere in good reads forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101629565

It is an article in the Washington Post...about the "oldtimers" by E.J.Dionne Jr

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/conservatives-used-to-care-about-community-what-happened/2012/05/24/gJQAsR8inU_story.html

With money and some power and some legitimate stance..the "sociopaths" and haters are gaining, not loosing power.

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #56)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:39 PM

57. DING DING DING.. we have a winner!

 

That's what is different! We have millions of Karl Rove and COCK brother dollars going into their 15 minutes, now four years, of fame!

Ever since that simpleton boob from Alaska got to be Governor, the money has been on real life TV ... 10 seconds of TV for MR or MRS or MS simpleton... they get 1000 people out to vote in Kansas, people who never voted before, or people who just didn't care.

There's a whole cadre of legally eligible white bread voters in all these states, from Maine to California, they didn't vote for Bush or Gore or Kerry or Bush or even for Dole or Clinton, but they have been out there for 15-20 years.. and they vote and get themselves on video and TV now.

Karl Rove and the COCK brothers have put 1% of their wealth into getting these 3-5% of America hicks onto Fox news and whatever else they can put them. In doing so, Rove and the rest of the Fox news folks get 1000 or 10,000 other multi-millionaires to give up another $10,000, Rove walks away with 30-50 million, Fox walks away with 600,000,0000 to a billion........Hannity and O'stoopid and all the rest, 30-50 million each a year.

It's all about making money for them, using the stupid people of America's white back woods and farms and ranches, people who would have to drive 20 miles to actually vote, but love spending 15 seconds being interviewed on the all channel TV machine, recorded for history, they actually were against that black man in the White House, and they went on TV to say so.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 08:43 PM

59. I agree with you except I would like to add something

We make a mistake of thinking that hate and fear are a function of rationality. What the conservatives you're talking about do is based on emotions, not thinking. They live life following their emotional knee jerk reactions which they never even think about. They are ruled by hatred and anger and feelings of vengeance and moral turpitude. They hate for whatever reason, probably having to do with some fundamental self hatred and their reactions are automatic and this is what they believe is normal.

I've known people who are like this whose idea of raising their kids is to snarl or scream at them constantly and to yank at their arms and slap them on the back of the head to get their attention. These parents lack any ability to see the pain they cause or the confusion they create for their children. It was the way they were raised and therefore it's normal to them. They have no concept nor can they understand of any other way of acting. If they see pain or confusion in their children's eyes they think they must teach that child to be tough, just like their parents taught them. This means there's a very profound self hatred which has been beaten into them. Sometime in their own childhoods they had to accept that abuse as inevitable and strive to emulate it. And the ones who escape it and turn out to be decent people are invariably the more intelligent ones. The ones who actually do think and do use reason.

It's pretty well known that abusers are the victims of abuse themselves. There is no thinking involved. Just emotional knee jerk reactions which they adopted in order to live through it.

When people react based on their emotions they are ruled by their anger and hatred. When they begin to think about how they're reacting they are beginning to rule over their emotional reactions. The problem is that it's far, far easier to react to their hatred than to try to control it through reason.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #59)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:23 PM

63. Spot On.

Within this environment I developed PTSD at a very early age. My step father was that very person and also seemed to hate me for (you pick the reason). He had a moment of clarity nearing his mortal life and wondered if the "kids" didn't like him.

Move to 2012 and my daughter. That's where the old story ends and a new wonderful life for a little girl is born. My cup over floweth with love.

But still to this day "lazy" minded people tend to trigger my PTSD (with an ample does of hyper vigilance).

Makes it hard to drive sometimes. Makes it impossible to listen to the GOP base and tea baggers, I'd never make a great politician, but I can wish.

Thanks for the salient analysis.



-p

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Response to Phlem (Reply #63)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:44 PM

68. That is truly wonderful!

Your daughter will reciprocate by healing you too, without even trying. And please accept my heartfelt congratulations on making the choice to refuse to give in. You're really quite brave whether you know it or not.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #68)

Mon May 28, 2012, 07:32 PM

99. Thank you.

You are too kind.



Love to you.

-p

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Response to lunatica (Reply #59)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:50 PM

97. Great post

The problem is that it's far, far easier to react to their hatred than to try to control it through reason.


Beautiful!

Let us not fall victim to that 'problem'.

There are only 3 ways to eliminate hatred in a human being.

1) Destroy the human being.

2) Show that human being a lot of love.

3) Offer enough wisdom to that human being and hope that some day they will become enlightened...or aware.

We will all agree that reacting to hatred with more hatred is not the answer.

Let us forget about option #1 and work on options #2 and #3

Thank you for putting things into perspective.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:31 PM

65. Might be an innate sense of wanting to punish.

My mom even had a bit of this. She'd been terribly wronged when she was very young. And some things about her young adulthood weren't exactly peachy, either. She always seemed to lead with an unspoken compulsion to punish. Someone had to be punished for what she suffered through. Someone had to pay.

The punishing thing, the desire or the compulsion to punish, to rule by tyranny and not just to defeat but to draw blood from an opponent. That goes to the drive to dehumanize, demean, and diminish all those people and ideas and policies in ol' newty's nasty little book of black magic that taught the terminology and verbiage - framing and other psy-ops - for describing your side versus your opponent's side. That's how "liberal" became a dirty word. That's how taxes became so bad. That's how government was suddenly some ridiculous Mother Goose and Brothers Grimm monster to be avoided, defied, wiped out, and the ground salted underneath. I read an essay in and around here whose premise was how the Dems and GOP look at politics and the whole concept of bipartisanship completely differently. Our side values reason, compromise, give-and-take, various kinds of power-sharing in the service of solving problems and dealing with issues for the common good. Their side views compromise as a dirty word, and whose longterm mission is not to find ways to work together but to keep Democrats out of power permanently.

There's also something else that, it seems to me, also feeds into that intrinsic, seemingly instinctive urge to cause pain that I learned about in great depth while I was pregnant. If you just start reading and exploring and learning, you eventually stumble into the little cul-de-sac of the history of pain relief or lack thereof during labor and childbirth. Those utterly merciful epidurals and other professional-grade pain medications are a relatively new thing, only becoming standard operating procedure in the last century or so. How come? Because the prevailing opinion in the (mostly male) medical establishment and, of course, the Church, was that women should not be given or offered any relief from pain during labor and childbirth because women were SUPPOSED TO suffer. It was their birthright stemming from the Sin of Eve. The "Original Sin"! Seriously. Therefore, to compel women to struggle and suffer in labor and childbirth was somehow a God-sanctioned position because that was womankind's lot in life, because of Adam and Eve and the snake and all that, and how women simply were expected to pay for Eve's disobedience as her surrogates, by enduring the full hurricane blasts of agony like you get a LOT of during labor and childbirth.

And when that whole Dark Ages mentality began to evolve and that barbaric philosophy started to change, church officials, meddling moralists, and establishment conservative opposed it and fought it vigorously. I swear to you I saw this stuff while I was learning about my pregnancies! And it was stunning as all-get-out. I just could not fathom it, especially as a pregnant woman myself, back then.

Maybe it's where we get that "authoritarian father," or the "domineering father," or the "tough love" approach, while the mother is purportedly the softer, more malleable, more accomodating nurturer. It just seems to be this general Puritan, Inquisitional, narrow, imperious, authoritarian, punishing ethic that much of the world struggled with during the Dark Ages. Like an overall smog that settles over us that we have to keep breathing for awhile until we can finally get all the air cleared. Seems to me this whole sick, stunted, Troglodyte mindset stems from the "Original Sin" curse and the vigorously insisted-upon penance foisted upon you as an heir of Adam and Eve. It's a whole "you were born into sin until you're rescued in baptism" thing - in which you start out a loser and a sinner the instant you're down out of the chute and breathing on your own, in religious and socio-religious terms.

VERY odd and twisted way to explain and justify extremist shit. It's sociopath and psychopath stuff, seems to me. And it's all the sadder that it may have its roots in religion.

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Response to calimary (Reply #65)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:34 AM

80. I have no idea why people have so little self-esteem

as to sit in church and hear a preacher rant, rave and insult them, and call them sinners, not knowing a damn thing about them, and proud of his ignorance and dominance. People with low self-esteem are easy to manipulate.

Maybe they will someday get up the courage to walk out on that original sin bullshit. If you're a Christian, then God is a crooked prosecutor who pins a rap on you you don't deserve, just because you're breathing.

An imaginary problem with an imaginary solution--substitutionary atonement.

Calimary, you have figured out the root of the problem, an authoritarian, mass-murdering blood thirsty god at the head of a syncretic cannibalistic death cult. Suffering is NOT redemptive but they think it is.


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Response to calimary (Reply #65)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:38 PM

94. good post

There is a lot to it that goes back in history like that. People have been conditioned for centuries to believe they are naturally "sinners" and that affects their views of themselves and others.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:36 PM

66. I really hope you are wrong. nt

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 09:41 PM

67. Sadly, I've come to the same conclusion. nt

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 10:22 PM

69. As I have posted numerous times,

 

the current Republican voters - all of them - are basically rabid animals. They have severe, incurable mental illness. Anyone on our side who believes we're going to reason with enough of them to take the country back through traditional means is also part of the problem. I just hope enough of us wake up and guess busy before it's really too late

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 10:23 PM

70. Monsters from the Id

I think it is a mistake to look at anonymous online posts and assume that it reflects how people behave in the outside world.

The ability to post anonymously, seems to unleash the "Id Monster" - If you're familiar with the movie, "Forbidden Planet", you know what I mean.

I know quite a few hard right conservatives who would absolutely go out of their way to help somebody in need - without regard to race, religion, nationality, etc., but freak out at the thought of paying taxes to help more people that they could never reach and in ways that are beyond their ability. If they are not personally involved, they are terrified that the help might go to somebody "undeserving".

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Response to ThoughtCriminal (Reply #70)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:01 AM

78. Monster from the Id

I know....hard right conservatives ...but freak out at the thought of paying taxes to help more people that they could never reach and in ways that are beyond their ability. If they are not personally involved, they are terrified that the help might go to somebody "undeserving".


In an effort to understand the 'fear of paying taxes'...

Let's clarify...I don't believe that (let's call them 'your hard right conservatives'or YHRC) YHRC fear paying taxes. I think their fear is that raising taxes on the elite will (real or not)cause the elite to go elsewhere and thus create more of a tax burden on them(YHRC).

At least, that is my understanding of YHRC.

Generalized, genralized, generalized....

And you're right... a few of them who are not afraid of race, religions other than their own, nationality...etc...do help others in need. And they likely prefer to be directly involved. Probably because they do not trust government....or most people, for that matter.

A lot of what (excuse the generalization, but for lack of a better pronoun...) 'they' believe is enforced by fear and the need to be in control.

The best way to understand 'them'(again, forgive me) is to calm their fears and show 'them' that 'they' cannot control everything...therefore 'their' need to control everything is futile because 'they' cannot.

How is that done?

Anybody?

I think what is perceived as hate is probably frustration manifesting itself in anger due to the presence of fear and lack of being in control.

The tax issue is entirely a different one.
What argument do you present that they should insist that the elite pay more taxes? Keep in mind that they have trust issues(fear) and 'they'(YHRC) feel the need to be in control.

Perhaps some reassurances that the elite will not depart in a scenario where their taxes were raised.
In light of the recent departure of facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin (laughable) , this will be a difficult task...
[link:http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/facebook-founder-saverin-gives-up-us-citizenship/2012/05/11/gIQAAMCoIU_story.html|

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/facebook-founder-saverin-gives-up-us-citizenship/2012/05/11/gIQAAMCoIU_story.html
At any rate, it's late and I am getting sleepy. I just read back some of what I wrote and I ask your forgiveness on my lack of cognitive something or other.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 11:55 PM

72. Extremist hatred is a displaced hatred used to deny their powerlessness.

Extremists of the right and of the left exhibit highly authoritarian personalities which precludes them from even questioning, let alone challenging, those who are, or are perceived as being, authority figures.

Right wing authority figures provide credence to those of lower social stature to vent their hostility against those who oppose the authority figures. In other words, those of lower social stature are encouraged to displace their anger from the one percent to those members of the 99 percent who question the motives and actions of the one percent.

The emotions of fear, hatred, and self-loathing drive authoritarian extremists to exhibit a "mob" mentality devoid of any logic. Occasionally, it is possible to reason with them if they aren't in an emotionally agitated state.

The main way to deal with authoritarian leaders is to diminish the leaders' stature in the eyes of their followers.

This is why the right wing continues to claim that President Obama was not born in the U.S. even though it is beyond doubt that he was. The right wing attacks Obama's citizenship solely to demean his authority among the gullible.

The authoritarian leadership use their wealth and social and political influence to constantly harangue their "followers" against the opponents of the one percent to drown out any rational arguments that might sway their followers among the 99 percent to rebel. This is why they took control of the mass media.

This also explains the phenomenon labeled "voting against their own self interest".

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Sun May 27, 2012, 11:56 PM

73. CPD - Conservative Personality Disorder

As presently contemplated, the symptoms of Conservative Personality Disorder include, but are not limited to:

-superficiality
-hierarchical worldview
-willful ignorance
-irrationality
-emotionality
-authoritarianism
-tribalism
-sense of entitlement
-misogyny
-seeks constant reinforcement of unexamined privilege or bias
-boundary violations
-self-righteousness
-sadism
-amorality
-rigidity
-poor facility with native language
-avarice
-limited dimensionality of thought
-stunted self-awareness
-compulsive political behavior in the service of extreme right-wing views

http://perrystreetpalace.com/2011/02/14/promising-new-research-hints-at-possible-treatment-for-conservative-personality-disorder/

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 12:18 AM

75. The majority of the conservatives I know

Voted for Obama. I was pretty shocked at a couple who up until then had been hardcore Republican. They both told me it was just too nuts for them anymore.
I've heard others say the the right has shifted so far right that adopting a once standard conservative position is now seen almost as liberal. I think that might be scratching the truth these days.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 12:39 AM

77. Worst

This may be the worst thread I have ever read on DU.

Maybe because I live in a conservative community and thus have conservatives all around me, but the author of this threads assumptions are pure garbage.

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #77)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:31 AM

84. Worst thread ever? I didn't even mention Olive Garden...

 

[img][/img]

My assumptions are based on my experiences. I make that pretty clear in my post.

Allow me to explain something to you. You say you have conservatives around you. Well, what you're telling me is that these people are, by definition people who think gay men and women should be forbidden to marry the people they love. You are telling me that these people, by definition believe that federal aid programs such as TANF, CHIP, and WIC (you know, 'welfare') should be thrown away, leaving a few million needy Americans out in the cold. You are telling me that these people, by definition value corporate profit over human life. You are telling me that these people, by definition would rather we blow out the brains of a few hundred thousand people somewhere in the world to get an oil fix, than invest that money from the military budget into alternative energy research instead. You are telling me that these people, by definition hold that a woman has absolutely zero right to reproductive self-determination. You are telling me that these people, by definition believe that workers should have absolutely no rights; no minimum wage, no organization, no OSHA, no tort suits, none of that.

I'm not stringing out the more fringe-y beliefs of conservatives here. I'm not even touching on some of the more mainstream ones that follow conservatives around, such as those involving torture, immigration, the confederacy, all that. No, I'm simply telling you the core beliefs that define conservativism. Beliefs that are integral to the proclamation of "I am a conservative." Even at the core, the nucleus of this belief system, the defining trait is brutality.

Maybe your community doesn't actually fit the descriptor you've given it. It wouldn't surprise me; there's so much effort out there to define liberals as terrorist-loving, NAMBLA-funding, urban elitists that there's probably a lot of people who are not at all conservative, but self-identify as such because of all the bullshit out there about the left.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #84)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:39 PM

95. Your picture indicates that things should never change

Althoug I have no proof and it is pure speculation, I would consider that the poster you are responding to might be a closet conservative.

Your entire post is not pure garbage. This is my first time here...not this post, but this thread.

You may be right that a lot of what conservatives 'stand' for is hatred based.

The conservatives are driven exclusively by hatred.


That is a statement that indicates that you deal in absolutes.

A characteristic common to George W.
"Either you are with us or you are ag'in us."

I realize that it is frustrating to deal with people who are hate based.

I think you will agree that more hate will solve nothing.

Your beliefs i.e...the opposite of what your definitions of a conservative is...are because you are tolerant and your definition of a conservative may not be.

If you lose your tolerance, then by your own definition, you are a conservative.

I am ribbing you, of course, but you catch my drift.

If we lose our tolerance then what is the next step?
We become hate based.

Consider offering seeds and don't get frustrated when the seeds don't immediately take.
With all that fertilizer up there, something you plant will eventually sprout.

Be good.






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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #77)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:45 PM

90. them what are you doing here

shouldn't you be on free republic cause I think you lost. Or maybe the reason you disagree is that fact that you've been assimilated by the republicans and are damn proud of it. The only reason I can think of you lashing out is you know the truth hurts.

"Maybe because I live in a conservative community and thus have conservatives all around me, but the author of this threads assumptions are pure garbage."

yeah me too and I have PTSD to prove it.



-p

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:20 AM

79. The CPD question?

They cannot see their own hypocrisy. They can and do see it easily in others. Even if you broadside them with incontrovertible proof they will refuse to believe you. It's there in the very way that they call themselves "conservative". We all know that they are voting republican. They will often try to deny it though.

I recently heard this somewhere and I believe that it has some bearing on this topic;

“Even if you prove to a schizophrenic his dog isn't really talking to him he will still not believe you.”

This is not a symptomatic disorder, it is a willful adherence to an agenda. Like a dogwhistle, the buzzwords are the coded signal. If you high five at just the proper moment, while reciting one of the secret words, you're in. They are aware right away if you are not responding to it. Like people sharing camaraderie about a sports team, or a hobby or even their favorite kind of beer.

They don't seem to have very good humor, unless of course it is deprecating to someone. Not the kind of shared insult thing like Don Rickles, but more pointed to actually draw a lttle blood. Conservatives are the lamest comedian/speech/joke tellers I have ever heard, unless of course they are being very sarcastic. They prefer to laugh at something or somebody rather than with. Kind of like wrestling fans although I mean them no disrespect.

I still try to reach out to them. A few step off the crazy train every day. They know that something is not right. Watch out though, some will try to bite your head off if you are not careful.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 03:27 AM

81. Welcome to the club!

 

New members are always welcome!

I caught on during Reagan's second term. I do think it is a direct result of radio and Faux news spewing HATRED!!! twenty four hours a day.

Since they can't be reasoned with, they must be shouted down and ridiculed. I find ridicule to be very effective when confronting people face to face. Most are simply astonished that the big burly man is an avowed liberal/socialist and is willing to get angry. These people are emotion based-- not logic or rationale based. They don't understand fancy, book learning, and calm reasoned arguments. They DO understand pissed off and audacity. They are bullies and must be punched in the nose (metaphorically) before they'll stop.

I remember telling one coworker who was berating another about being a tree hugging liberal, that "all you conservative bastards are fucking Nazi's". The look of astonishment on his face was priceless, AND I have not heard him bring up any political views in over 9 months.

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Response to Hawkowl (Reply #81)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:59 PM

91. Ridicule

I find ridicule to be very effective when confronting people face to face.


I don't believe that it is as effective as you think it is.

I suspect that it depends on what your goal is.

If your goal is to berate and belittle another human being, deservedly or not, then it is very effective.

If it is to educate or sway another's opinion, then I believe that you might be on the wrong track.

In fact, ridiculing someone with an opposing point of view is somewhat what the point of original poster of this thread is saying...iit likely causes the 'conservative' to hate...it creates more hate.

You cite that 'they' cannot be reasoned with, then the alternative is to perhaps plant a seed and walk away. Ridicule makes a person go deeper into the abyss.

Enlighten them.

I remember telling one coworker who was berating another about being a tree hugging liberal, that "all you conservative bastards are fucking Nazi's". The look of astonishment on his face was priceless, AND I have not heard him bring up any political views in over 9 months.


One good berating deserves another?

I beg you to reconsider your methods.

Offer little seeds of wisdom in a kind way and, maybe in 10 years, those seeds might take...
or maybe not, but at least there will not be additional hatred.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 04:10 AM

82. Succinct. I view them as the last refuge of primate behaviors learned ten million years ago.

'Throwbacks'. Our terrible curse. Others continually carry their weight into the future, in true co-dependent style, because left to themselves, they're all dead within a generation. They feed on the efforts of others, because they cannot sustain themselves, much less come to grips with their awful sub-memes.

It's apparently a successful strategy, however, this 'leech' behavior. They're still with us.

One hopes in declining numbers, however. The next generation is always one good book away from waking up, and that's a good thing for us.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 04:49 AM

83. Well said - and for the most part, I agree with you.

I am a blue dot surrounded by red. I do interact a bit with my neighbors - in fact, one household seems pretty sincere and nice - and to me they are an example of the occasional exception to the rule, so to speak. These are people that are not that churchy, they raised two nice kids, they are both professionals, and although they know how left wing my wife and I are, we actually avoid politics most of the time.

But what they are: racist (they really don't like people who look different than they do), and they are afraid - though I am sure they don't know what they are afraid of. They are also brainwashed, as it is all Fox, all the time for them.

So I can't condemn them all....but I can condemn lots of them. Our liberal/progressive approach does indeed default to trying to make rational sense of what we see. But our blind spot is accepting pure badness, hatred, malevolence - and we continue to do so at our peril.

Was pondering some more and need to add this - there is a weirdness in a particular aspect of some of them - that they would rather everyone worthy suffers than one person appearing to game the system (this is in regard to fiscal/social things) - and I think it is projection on their part - that they would certainly game the system if they needed to, so of course, many people getting food stamps, unemployment, etc must be lying or cheating. This is likely also related to their inherent bigotry. But it all, to me, comes down to fear.

And as a friend and I agreed, for a bunch of people who are convinced that they are "saved", they sure do get scared shitless by just about everything.

Yesterday I went out on an errand. My truck is pretty festooned with liberal bumper stickers - Obama stickers, Turn Off Fox, DU, etc - this fellow in an old car went by me, then slowed down and got in back of me, then passed me - looked at me and shook his head and frowned. I looked over at him with a big smile and just started laughing my ass off at him - my intent was to infer he was just a fool. He sped angrily past me. (I know....he could have just as well taken out his toy and taken a pop at me....but he didn't, and I've pretty much taken to laughing at these people for being such suckers and fools)

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #83)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:14 PM

92. The fools...

I've pretty much taken to laughing at these people for being such suckers and fools)


It's disappointing...

Ever hear the expression about catching more flies with honey than vinegar...or something to that effect?

What do you think you accomplished here?
Did you enlighten him or do you think you reinforced his opinion of you?

Who cares, right?

Wouldn't a friendly wave have a better effect?

I don't know if everyone is just venting here, but it is disappointing to say the least. If it is venting, then I offer my apologies...I am new here and I don't know how it works, but I am here for discussion of how to bring more people over to my way of thinking rather than preaching to the choir and about how much we hate how conservatives hate and how to hate them back. (Which I don't hate them, by the way. It is more like I am concerned for them because they are misguided...in my opinion.)

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:55 AM

85. They are true believers dedicated to their cause and Democrats are too F-ing nice to them

 

You cannot compromise or reason with them on any level about anything.

They will not be defeated via the ballot anyone who thinks so is very naïve.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 11:44 AM

89. kr

I think you're on to something Scootaloo.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:46 PM

96. Some like inflicting pain.....

...but most are just selfish and don't give a crap about anyone but themselves and their own.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 03:36 PM

98. I've found most conservatives to be horribly afraid

At best, old-school conservatives (eg. C.S. Lewis, C. K. Chesterton) are afraid of change, especially change for change's sake, will put up a reasoned argument and will expect you to do the same.

This new lot are simply afraid of everything and lash out in hatred, exacting pain to meet their own pain.

Apparently I'm not alone

Why is the conservative brain more fearful? The alternate reality rightwingers inhabit is terrifying.

Research suggests that conservatives are, on average, more susceptible to fear than those who identify themselves as liberals. Looking at MRIs of a large sample of young adults last year, researchers at University College London discovered that “greater conservatism was associated with increased volume of the right amygdala” ($$). The amygdala is an ancient brain structure that's activated during states of fear and anxiety. (The researchers also found that “greater liberalism was associated with increased gray matter volume in the anterior cingulate cortex” – a region in the brain that is believed to help people manage complexity.)

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Response to TrogL (Reply #98)

Mon May 28, 2012, 11:15 PM

100. The Euphio Question

If this is saying what I think it says, then they are actually getting a blast of adrenalin from the fear and drama caused by the anxiety of all of their false flag dilemmas. They are getting high on stupidity? Fox has figured out how to turn the knob for them. Vonnegut wrote a story about this. It was called the Euphio Question.. No wonder they are so unreasonable. Logic and reason would take away their fix. And it would explain why they are almost proud of their spelling and grammatical errors. They are not just acting stupid, they are catching a buzz.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 11:21 AM

101. They really are living in a bubble.

 

They won't hear or listen to anything that goes against what they have been brain washed to believe.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 11:44 AM

102. Yet another one wakes up to the truth.

 

Congratulations for taking the red pill!

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:04 PM

103. Your theory is only valid

 

if you know what is in everybody else's best interest, and you do not.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 03:54 PM

105. You've been spending too much time on those "numerous right-wing websites"

and not enough time in the real world.

There are many conservatives who are not "driven exclusively by hatred", who do not "desire to inflict and enjoy suffering", and who are not hateful sociopaths. Many, in fact, are friends and family members of DUers. Just because someone wants the top income tax rate to be 3.9% below what Obama wants it to be, agrees with the ACLU on the Citizens United decision, and does not like the individual mandate for health insurance, does not make them a disgusting evil person.

Those right-wing websites draw out the lunatics and give a distorted picture.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #105)

Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:57 PM

107. Are you about to stab me? Just joking.

'Conservative', I think, is the operative word. Your three examples of 'conservatism' would earn the speaker the bitter label of 'liberal' from 'conservatives'.

I believe the Scootaloo is correct, of course.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Thu May 31, 2012, 03:10 AM

106. your last paragraph is an axiom of political organizing:

energize your base, win some of those who are in the middle, and don't pour too much gasoline on the burning crosses on the right.

Unfortunately, Democrats at the top don't do this. Not so much because they don't know the hard right is unwinnable but because they aren't playing to voters of the right or left, but to the big money crowd.

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Response to Scootaloo (Original post)

Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:58 PM

108. Succinct and truth-ringy.

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