500k electric cars by 2020.

[lonestarnot]

http://fortune.com/2015/08/28/tesla-lithium-mine-mexico/

[PatrickforO]

1. Very good.

Still, with 253 million cars on the road, with an average age of 11 years, 500K battery powered ones is slightly less than 1/5 of 1% of them. Yet it is a great start.

On the other hand, how long will these lithium batteries last, and how will they be disposed of when dead? Always, there are unintended consequences to our actions.

I am confident, though, that the emergent solar and wind power industries will substantially lower carbon emissions over the next decade. The problem is the government needs to step up with aggressive goals (which has been done in part), and adjust incentives to hasten the change (the Republicans are fighting these with the help of big oil under the guise of an 'all of the above' energy policy).

[lonestarnot]

2. The need to step it up this quickly.

[MineralMan]

3. Hmm...

So, a mining company in Mexico is going to strip mine clay formations to access lithium-bearing clay deposits near a volcano. Then, this lithium will be shipped to a huge factory in Nevada that will be manufacturing lithium batteries to power these cars. Once the cars are built, people will be charging those batteries from electrical lines at their homes. Do I have that about right?

How much energy is this going to save again? Has anyone done the math to make these comparisons? How about that mining in Mexico? That's gotta leave a mark right there. And there's that big battery factory near Reno they're building. Where does the power and water for that come from? There's a drought in the west, after all.

I'm still confused about the numbers on these electric cars, really...

[Logical]

5. And the coal to make the electric power. nt

[MineralMan]

6. Or oil or nuclear power or whatever.

But...solar...Yes, well, OK. But then we can talk about manufacturing of solar panels and other issues connected with that. There is no energy that is not produced through the expenditure of energy. It's all an equation.

I'm not sure electric cars are necessarily something that will save the planet, frankly.

[lonestarnot]

9. When there is all that solar energy just waiting to be harnessed.

[Logical]

10. And wind! nt

[MineralMan]

13. And wind, of course. But, those big props kill birds, and are

known for flying off and killing people, too.

[lonestarnot]

7. Good questions. Another issue charging stations "multiplying like electric bunnies."

[MineralMan]

12. Well, since most of these cars are novelties to be owned

by the idle rich, they'll just take the Mercedes for those long trips. The Tesla is for shopping and excursions to the theater and campaign rallies mostly. The Benz is so much more comfortable on the long trips, and Benson says that it's better suited for that. He's the driver, so I take him at his word.

[Statistical]

15. Lithium Ion Batteries are recyclable

Even as they get cheaper they will be a significant portion of the total system cost so unlike a AA nobody is going to just be dumping them in the trash. Even worn out they are worth a lot of money.

[nationalize the fed]

16. Plus the fact that every single lithium battery will fail

one day and need to be replaced and recycled.

The battery pack in a Tesla model S weighs ~1320 pounds. Not something you can load into the back of a pickup and take to the recycling facility.

Here's a theory (that I don't believe yet- but something is going on)

https://teslainvestigation.wordpress.com/2015/06/25/why-elon-musk-and-john-doerr-hate-hydrogen-more-than-anything-on-earth/

Trivia: If not plugged in, a Tesla model S loses ~5 Miles of range every day due to "Vampire Losses" - running the battery coolant and powering the on board electronics.

[daleo]

17. Gasoline gets "mined" and shipped tremendous distances too

Mining lithium for batteries has to be contrasted with all the amazingly expensive and energy intensive infrastructure needed for internal combustion engines.

[Statistical]

18. Plus since lithium is recyclable in time it will be cheaper ...

to recycle existing lithium batteries rather than mine increasingly expensive virgin lithium. Today while most lithium ion batteries are recycled for the expensive metals the lithium is not recycled because honestly it is pretty cheap and there isn't that much lithium in a lithium ion battery. However if demand drives up the price of lithium it will be more economical to use recycled lithium instead.

[MineralMan]

19. Why, yes, it does.

All sorts of resources come at high costs. Actually understanding the actual costs is a good step to take in understanding whether a new technology is really better than an older one, or whether maybe a new way of thinking is needed.

It's not always easy to see the entire network that is required for any technology. It's good, though, to try.

[Logical]

4. And some of them will be self driving

[MineralMan]

8. True. Humans not required, except to build them and to manufacture

the components.

I welcome the new autonomous rulers of the world. I pledge to serve them.

[Logical]

11. Self driving cars will save thousands of people a year! Good news! nt

[MineralMan]

14. See there? There's always an answer, isn't there?