Sooo... saying "whore" is okay, but "white privilege"...

[Zenlitened]

... is just so divisive and mean and oh so wrong?

Not to mention "white tears." Why, that those are just about the worst words anybody could say ever!

I guess, what do I know though?

It's been a long time since I felt I generally understood Democrats, as a party.

[Scootaloo]

1. Interesting. Four posters becomes the entire party.

I do not remember being consulted as to whether i want four anonymous people on an internet screaming-at-each-other site to become the definition of my political party.

Maybe htye sent it to my old PO Box. Or maybe it's because i don't have a landline?

[arcane1]

2. "As a party"?

[malokvale77]

3. No...

"whore" is only okay if you preface it with "white".

Politically correct speech has never done a damned thing to solve societal problems.

If more people would actually spend more time helping fellow "man" (oops,"persons&quot than worrying about fucking words, we might actually make a better world.

[NuclearDem]

4. "Words will never hurt me" is a load of shit.

[malokvale77]

6. Wow and whoosh. (nt)

[NuclearDem]

9. Unless there was some subtle subversive commentary in that post

then nothing went over my head.

Just standard "waahhhh I can't say whatever I want to you meanies".

[malokvale77]

23. Hence the whoosh.

There was no "waahh blah blah blah meanies" in my post.

It is not my fault that you don't get "subtle subversive commentary".

[Gormy Cuss]

10. Yep. A major steaming pile of it. n/t

[NuclearDem]

14. If the worst some whiny children pretending to be grown ups feel is annoyed at the "language police"

then they can shove off.

They've clearly never been or known someone driven into depression, anxiety, or to suicide by the near constant assault of words like fag, homo, sissy, tranny, dyke, fat ass, bitch, cunt, whore, or slut.

Sorry, I've found far too many of my friends dead to care what some Orwell and Carlin fanboys think about political correctness, or what cunt means in the UK.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. But when some of us point out there is bullying in this place

and it does not use any of the proscribed words, we are laughed at.

This is kind of funny... the irony of this post broke my irony meter.

By the way, I consider the use of those worlds in the context you describe part of the problem of ... gasp I know, BULLYING.

It is not the words themselves, it is what comes with the package.

[NuclearDem]

18. You make me sad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Of course I do

but I guess now that I understand how bullies work, and why they use the terms they use, those words, have no power any longer.

And I have been bullied, relentlessly here. And not a once anybody has called me any of those words. They have used OTHER tactics that are JUST AS PAINFUL, if you do not understand what they are doing.

[Gormy Cuss]

20. Truly, that is the key -- words do hurt people who are fragile because of illness, abuse,

or marginalization. That some here can't seem to grasp that is frustrating.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. and some are unable to understand that

language is the last thing in the mind of actual activists trying to stop the actual marginalization of people And when language takes center stage it is to change the meaning of language and empower yourself by using the language others used to try to hurt you.

Nor are these people concerned with shitty novels, for example.

You are correct, we are all having a problem communicating here. I prefer to stand with actual real living activists, who are far more concerned about empowerment, and I know in person, than people complaining every time a word is used and trying to police others on the internet.

[Gormy Cuss]

60. You are marginalizing those who are affected by language when you use phrasing like "actual real

living activists." It's not a contest. One may chose to stand with those they perceive are above name calling but that doesn't need to be also a position of diminishing those who understand that words have power and that it's a legitimate facet of the fight against whatever inequality is under discussion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. I get marginalized here so often that this is quite funny

And it is not a contest, but when people try to control the language of others, it has actually led to many of us giving up on posting substantial things here. Ever thought about that?

Ah thunder... sorry, but now I gotta pay attention to probable breaking news.

[Gormy Cuss]

64. So because you've been marginalized here, you get to marginalize others?

Irony meter just broke.

[Recursion]

35. One of the biggest and hugest loads there is (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Yup

I also pointed this out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6989756

[malokvale77]

7. Perfect

I didn't see that nadin'. Thank you for the link.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. You welcome, I am getting tired of the language police

and I know I am not the only one.

[truebrit71]

11. Beyond sick of it...

... so much poutrage...

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. What I hate is the walking on egg shells

becuase of these folks.

Really.

It is ridiculous, and this "newspeak" is also part of the problem.

[truebrit71]

13. Yup...

.... this place is becoming more and more hostile and unrecognizable each day....

[Tipperary]

63. It seems to me to be a specific group on the DU who want to control how other posters speak.

I really do not have patience for the language police either. I tend not to use bad language or the words being discussed here, but I am not offended by others that do use them.

[Adrahil]

17. Language is power.

Because being so dismissive of this issue, please consider th epower of words, and what they represent. It DOES make a difference.

[malokvale77]

26. epower of words?

What happened to the real power of actions.

Please! I wouldn't want you on my team. The cause would die before it ever got to the start line.

[Scootaloo]

21. "Politically correct speech has never done a damned thing to solve societal problems."

I greatly disagree. You see, language forms the way people think. True fact, people with different mother tongues have different thinking patterns. did you know that in societies where he language has gendered nouns, gender roles tend to be more strict? Because "this object is woman, this object is man" affects the way "man" and "woman" are perceived.

A good example in the US, with our English, is the abandonment of terms such as "mongoloid" or "retarded" to describe people with mental disabilities. These terms carried a great amount of baggage, assumptions, and pejoratives targeting the person described. With the abandonment of these terms, the culture began moving past the perceptions of these individuals caused by the connotation of language used to describe htem.

So to with "whore." This word is just laden with connotations, every single one of them sexualized and gendered. In modern english it is never used EXCEPT to insult, and again, the insult is intended to sling sexual and gender connotations at the target. It is simply not appropriate to call anyone a whore - we don't even use the term to describe sex workers anymore, becuase of the baggage the word carries.

Now here's a neat fact about the English language... it is a huge language, and is incredibly expressive. it is one of very few languages that actually has a word for every occasion, so you can say exactly what you mean.

So if you want to accuse a politician of throwing away their principles in exchange for money or kickbacks, but you don't want to carry all the baggage and connotations of "whore", then we have plenty of other words!

"Sellout" is a good general term.
"Quisling," adopted for Norwegian, is a good name for a sellout who betrays trust while doing it.
"Swindler" is what we term someone who takes from one person with promises, and htne sells out to a third.
"Fraud" is a little different, a person who promises something but does not deliver, at someone's expense.
"Judas" is old-fashioned, but used for someone who actively destroys a group with a betrayal of trust.
"Crook" is good for someone who breaks laws or common ethics while selling out or swindling.
"Grifter" is a person who makes a career out of this sort of stuff, but mostly "under the radar"

You notice, none of these carry sexual or gender connotations, but still get the fucking point across.

We have a massive, expressive language. You can express yourself without being a jerk to people you don't intend to be a jerk towards.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Via urban dictionary... and the terms do make it to the actual dictionary from time to time

political whore
A politician who will sell out their constituents if it means they might get one step higher on the ladder. They will completely flip-flop on an issue that was the core of their campaign platform just because they think it might help them get elected to, for instance, Lake Forest City Council. They will even sell out the person who threw them proxies to get them into office. They become so "whoreish" that in the end, they are so slutty and nasty that nobody will touch them with a ten foot ballot.
Did you hear Terri voted "No" to approve the Committee members to the Overcrowded Housing Ad Hoc Committee? I voted for her because she promised she'd be tough on the Clown House crisis in our HOA. What a Political Whore!
by Feeling Lied To September 10, 2007

Notice, this is wholly non gendered. When I read this applied to a pol, gender never enters my mimd. Perhaps it is because I have heard this term applied to pols who are male... for the most part in real life. Must be the circle of activists I listen carefully to.

As usual your mileage will vary.

[Scootaloo]

30. Here, let me show you.

They become so "whoreish" that in the end, they are so slutty and nasty that nobody will touch them with a ten foot ballot.

These are the connotations of "whore." "Slutty" and "nasty" and valued wholly on their sexual purity (which is to say, not valued at all.) It is absolutely a sexualized term, and it is just as absolutely a gendered term. Yes, even when applied to a male (it is meant as an emasculating insult in that case, in addition to the rest of what the insult carries.)

My argument is that the same basic idea a politician who sells out their constituents - can be more clearly and more succinctly expressed without dragging these ugly sexualized gender connotations around. That is we can call a politician a sellout without bringing up assumptions of sexual shame, feminine "uncleanliness," and all the other shit that people are - very rightfully - complaining about when the term is used.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. As I said, your mileage will vary

since I hear this term used for quite a few of my local MALE politicians. So there is that. There is one specific female pol that at times the word has been used, but mostly becuase what she promised in her campaign and what she has done are like 180 from each other.

I thought I made that clear.

I also do not correct activists when they use terms they use. I just hit record. It is not my job to tell people what language they should use.

But hey, in the worlds of political correctness most of those folks would not survive this place for two seconds, and they are in the trenches. Then again, they do not have time for this horrendous waste of time. Sadly, these are the same folks your candidates will need to win the election. That is such a delicious irony.

As I told somebody else, do not go to the streets. The language you will hear at times will make you blush.

[Scootaloo]

32. Do you hold your own speech to any sort of standard?

I understand that you're not going to go around telling people "you can't say that!" But you should consider what is coming out of your own mouth (or fingers, as the case is), examine it, weigh it, and make sure it's exactly what you want to say.

People call male politicians whores? so what? I've seen people of all races called "n****rs" it doesn't mean we ought to defend the use of that word, and certainly doesn't make that word appropriate for how they are using it (or at all, really.)

it's no expense to you to use a more succinct, accurate term that doesn't also slam into innocent bystanders.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I pointed out where the term is now at

I do not correct Urban Dictionaries either.

By the way... if you actually cared to read me for many years, you would know I do not use what you would call bad words.

In fact, instead of the F word, I took on the Battlestar Galactica uses, (fracking), mostly that is the most "swearing" I do, or the word, shit. BFG is one of my all time favorite sci fi series, for it's social critique.

But I am not going to go around policing the language people use, or discussing silly novels. You know why? Those same activists have taught me something... how you call a politico, in this case that term, is empowering. You are talking of working class and poor folks who are more concerned with things like where their next meal is coming from at the end of the month.

Niceties such as using good and proper language are actually luxuries. Hell, niceties like using good and proper "white" middle class English is also a luxury.

Yes, I probably should one of these days sit down with my cousin who IS a linguist, and work on an article regarding this.

[Scootaloo]

36. And I pointed out that it hasn't changed from where the term "was"

But I am not going to go around policing the language people use, or discussing silly novels. You know why? Those same activists have taught me something... how you call a politico, in this case that term, is empowering. You are talking of working class and poor folks who are more concerned with things like where their next meal is coming from at the end of the month.

Niceties such as using good and proper language are actually luxuries. Hell, niceties like using good and proper "white" middle class English is also a luxury.

Oh spare me Nadin. First off, you're talking to someone who makes less than $18k a year and grew up in poverty. Please don't assume that not having a lush bank account means a person can't express themselves ably, or realize the meaning and implications of the words they choose to use.

Second, the word in question is disempowering. More so when applied to a woman. The context or your intent really don't matter, because the word is heavier and more meaningful than what you are using it for.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Third you are not impressing me

you are trying to correct people and assume that it is that way becuase it is TO YOU.

You should sit in with a few activists when they discuss their next action. Or for that matter just get into a few "hot" marches.

You want to police language, knock yourself silly. I know that some folks will laugh at this.

Yes, some will agree with you. Here is the shocker. NOT ALL.

And you implied I am swearing on DU as a sailor. Perhaps I should, so you get a clue, but then I would be banned because people are more concerned about a word or two.

[Scootaloo]

47. We are not in a "hot march". We are on a discussion board

it costs nothing to be aware of your own words and how they can strike other people, even whe nit is not your itnent. especially when you have an edit button.

You want to police language, knock yourself silly. I know that some folks will laugh at this.

Not at all. I want other people to be aware of what the language they are using means. if you want to call a woman a whore, by all means, I'm not going to arrest you. But I will ask if you are sure that this is what you want to say. And then sneer at you and disassociate myself if the answer is yes.

And you implied I am swearing on DU as a sailor.

No, I asked if you held your own speech to any sort of standard.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. You are saying I am using them

which is damn hilarious.

I told you where it is coming from in an URBAN DICTIONARY... and the fact that I have heard that use a LOT... perhaps it is the town I live at, but we have already established on DU that San Diego is not in the United States, since I live here.

So it is hilarious that you are accusing me of using words you object to which I am not using.

I am trying to have a discussion with you. I am also telling you that this policing of language will NOT END WELL. Part of it is becuase language evolves faster than you can police it. Part of it is becuase people will come up with new uses every generation, at times faster. This term, used in a political way IS NEW. We call those NEOLOGISMS. Sometimes, once again and v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y they evolve into the actual, gasp I know dictionary, such as Merriam Websters.

We also have something else at play here. Becuase of the sharing of information and the internet, language is actually evolving FASTER than at any one moment in previous history. So words may come and go faster, and make communication between generations harder.

Here is a world that has yet to make it to Merriams. but it's been in used for a while. Careful, it is not a swear world.

PEEPS. The first time I heard it I went WHAT THE HELL is that? Now I know.

Here from same source

Peeps
Marshmallow candies in the shape of rabbits and baby chickens. Usually served around Easter. Also short for "people".
I'm audi this sunday to chill with some peeps.
by Anonymous February 19, 2003

Here is another neologism that personally bothers me like nails on chalk, Womyn... you know this is quite recent... it bothers me. I said it once here, I got attacked for it. It is just incorrect spelling, of course what is correct is what is in the dictionary. I let it go. So folks want to use it, knock yourself silly. I am not going to try to control you.

Womyn
This is a term used by feminists who feel that having the word "man" in the word "woman" makes women a subset of men. So, to make themselves a non subset, they changed the letter 'e' to a 'y'.
I am not a subset, I am a womyn.
by sffbeatpmles December 23, 2009

I guess you are not reading (if we were having a conversation for real would be listening) to what you are being told, or would it be, written? So please proceed and have the last word. I am done wasting my time.

[Scootaloo]

54. No, I'm not. You really don't have to make stuff up, Nadin

I am trying to have a discussion with you. I am also telling you that this policing of language will NOT END WELL. Part of it is becuase language evolves faster than you can police it. Part of it is becuase people will come up with new uses every generation, at times faster. This term, used in a political way IS NEW. We call those NEOLOGISMS. Sometimes, once again and v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y they evolve into the actual, gasp I know dictionary, such as Merriam Websters.

I'm not policing language. I'm encouraging better usage of language. English has a plethora of terms that can be used in the slot of "political whore" to convey the same meaning but without the additional ugly connotations that have an impact radius beyond the intended target.

"Whore" is not a neologism. In fact it's quite the opposite. You can't really compare it to "peeps" of all things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Political whore is

whoosh. Whore is not, once again, POLITICAL WHORE IS.

Have a great evening. As is sirens in the background and I might have to concentrate on ROS, and direction and first, second and third alarm, which is a different subset of the language. Some of that might even sound very potty mouthy anyway. So not propper.

[malokvale77]

42. Maybe the point is...

You should get off your duff and do something about the situations that bring about the language, instead of fretting over the words (which are used to describe the situations).

It is really not that hard.

Many great linguists through out time have used words as metaphors to describe situations.

Tight assed is one of my favorites. It is wonderfully descriptive.

[Scootaloo]

44. It was a question about word usage.

Th answer to the question is the same whether i'm on my ass or on my feet.

[malokvale77]

34. Hogwash...

Gender?

[Scootaloo]

37. Yes.

[malokvale77]

45. Stretching much?

[Scootaloo]

48. Nope.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. There is none when it comes to that use

but let them keep that fantasy.

[pnwmom]

41. I agree there is no way to take the feminine and slutty connotations away from the slur,

even if you toss in the word "political."

[Scootaloo]

49. Well, at least there's one thing we can agree on

Though I have to say, I'm sure a woman would explain it better than I could

[pnwmom]

56. You did such a good job explaining it

that I decided you must be a woman.

Thanks!

[irisblue]

62. I like your word choices here scoot.

[rhett o rick]

68. Censoring language is often used as an excuse to bully people. Open minded people generally

don't have a problem with language. I completely agree with the statement, "Politically correct speech has never done a damned thing to solve societal problems." Demanding people us the phrase "n-word" hasn't solved any problems. It's used by those that think they are solving a problem but they are only fooling themselves. Claiming the the word "whore" has only one meaning and that it is demeaning to all women is pretty audacious thinking. And then using that claim to try to shame people, or get them PPR'd is not liberal and actually counter productive to the goals claimed. Do you have a list of forbidden words?

[Scootaloo]

69. Where am I censoring?

here's the situation. Somebody wants to convey a particular idea, that a female politician has abandoned principles in favor of a paycheck. Okay. This person starts with the phrase, "corporate whore" to describe this politician. You know, to convey that she's a filthy, undesirable slut with her legs spread wide for Phillip-Morris and Ronald McDonald.

Someone else pipes up to say, "hey, you know, that terminology is heavily gendered and sexually demeaning." And... well, it is. As it just happens, English is chock full of insults for politicians that don't engage in gender-targeting, sexually demeaning invective, as I have already shown.

So. Is there any harm if the first person goes, "gosh, I hadn't thought of that. I'll use one of these myriad other terms to convey the same idea without sounding like a misogynist jerk. Thanks, person Two!" Only if person one's intent was indeed to target a woman with sexual shaming, rather than insult her over her policy and positions.

This isn't "censorship." it's being a considerate person with a flexible vocabulary.

[rhett o rick]

71. So when you kindly tell people "hey, you know, that terminology is heavily gendered and sexual

demeaning." Do they in fact thank you and say, "gosh, I hadn't thought of that. I'll use one of these myriad other terms to convey the same idea without sounding like a misogynist jerk. Thanks, person Two!" I doubt it. More than likely, if they have an open mind, they will say something more like, "I don't agree with your very narrow and sexist definition of the word. I, in no way, intended it to mean what you claim it means."

One of the definitions of the word "whore" is , " A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain. "

[Prism]

15. Let's consult common sense

White privilege is a fairly fine phrase given what it describes.

Whore, in politician context, is not gendered. Male politicians are referred to with this word on the regular.

White tears is combative and meant to be an insult and divisive.

Problems solved!

I will accept nickels at my paypal.

[Zenlitened]

24. I respect you immensely, Prism...

...so it surprises me how much I disagree with you on this topic. I just flat-out, 100% disagree. What you call divisive I'd call incisive.

I dunno. I'm not demanding that you capitulate somehow, drop everything and instantly agree with me. Just... surprised by the gulf.

[Prism]

25. Well, how so?

I also respect you immensely, so I'm willing to earnestly listen to your argument as non-defensively as possible.

[Zenlitened]

28. That's the thing, I'm puzzling over...

...how to construct an argument that doesn't consist entirely of stuff you already know perfectly well.

If you don't mind, I think I'll just leave off for tonight, do some pondering and return to the topic when it (inevitably) comes up again some other day.

[Prism]

29. No bother!

I understand the impulse =)

[Zenlitened]

39. Thanks, have a good night. :) -n/t

[Starry Messenger]

43. I find "white tears" hilarious.

They seem to come with a chaser of "We've done everything for you people!11"

[Warren DeMontague]

46. DU doin' what DU does best.

Another reason why this place is the relevant locus of important issues-based political discussion it has become, especially in recent years.

Carry on!

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Yup

only reason I am here is... scanner duty due to local storm. I really find it hard to concentrate on hard reading like WHO reports, when having three radio channels running.

[bravenak]

51. I thought we changed it to White Benefits.

[NuclearDem]

53. Still too aggressive.

I think we're back to "oh, don't mind me, sorry for annoying you, white person."

[bravenak]

55. I'll work on something.

White exceptionalism?

[NuclearDem]

57. Sure, as long as you're not too uppity about it.

[bravenak]

59. I'll do it in a supplicating manner.

[Orrex]

65. Why don't we ever hear about Whore Privilege anymore?

Last edited Mon Jul 20, 2015, 10:43 AM - Edit history (1)

[snooper2]

67. I know right! They always get the best parking spots!

[Shankapotomus]

66. I called my mom a "bitch" when I was around five

I had just learned the word, had no idea what it meant but said it just to get a reaction.

My father (a ultra right wing republican) grab this privileged white boy by the neck and lifted me to the ceiling.

I wouldn't say calling a woman that (or near that) has always been "okay".

[Vinca]

70. DU is getting to the point of needing a glossary of words that are allowed.