Which side do you take on the Greece vs. Merkel issue?

[Ken Burch]

28 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Greece
	18 (64%)
	Merkel
	5 (18%)
	Neither
	5 (18%)
	Other
	0 (0%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[LittleBlue]

1. Greece

Part of being a liberal is supporting the underdog against big powers, especially when those powers demand insane policies like austerity for the benefit of banks.

[WillyT]

2. Greece... Have You Seen THIS:

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026946623

[geek tragedy]

3. Greece and Germany are both sovereign nations.

The Germans are too focused on austerity and 'fiscal discipline' which hurts job creation and economic growth, and the Greeks tend to be reckless and undisciplined in how they handle their own finances, which got them into their current troubles.

Greeks are right to resent German intervention, and the Germans are right to have become impatient with Greece's antics.

[Ken Burch]

4. "antics"? It's antic to oppose further pension cuts?

It's antic to not want more people put out of work just to appease some Teutonic tightwads?

And the debt was largely caused by previous Greek governments that were controlled by the country's economic oligarchy...not SYRIZA or the people who elected it.

[PoliticAverse]

11. So they should renounce all the debt, leave the Euro and print their own currency, yes? n/t

[Ken Burch]

12. It may come to that.

Or Germany and the EC could treat Greece like a nation of human beings, and stop punishing the many for the crimes of the few.

The SYRIZA government and the Greek people are blameless in the offenses committed by the wealthy tax cheats and the predatory international loansharks.

[geek tragedy]

17. Walking out of negotiations is an antic.

Holding a referendum on an offer that had expired is an antic.

Refusing to even come up with a proposal to prevent themselves from leaving the Euro is an antic.

Deliberately taking Greece out of the Euro while lying to the Greek voters about it is an antic.

Greece got itself into this mess via shady dealings, and SYRIZA has continued that tradition.

No one in Europe trusts the Greeks. They may feel sorry for them, but they don't trust them.

[Katashi_itto]

18. Like blaming a victim of a rapist.

[Indydem]

19. The people of Greece elected those governments.

Each subsequent generation is responsible for the debt.

Would you be ok if the next generation of republicans said "that is Barack Obama's debt, not ours - we won't pay it!"

Of course not. They borrowed the money, now they must pay it back.

[HooptieWagon]

5. Both.

Previous Greek govt cut taxes, and paid for the tax cuts by borrowing money. When those bonds came due, the govt used the bailout money to pay off those bonds. Then they were forced into austerity to pay back the bailout, but the austerity crashed the economy. Greece was also hiding how much dept they had from the EU. Plenty of blame to be had on both sides, but they aren't going to be able to pay back the bailout unless their economy improves. More austerity is only going to drive their economy deeper in the hole.

[Ken Burch]

13. Thanks. Excellent analysis. n/t.

[hill2016]

6. it's easy to take sides when your money is not at risk

but how many people who support Greece would put their own money down? buy Greek government bonds?

[Ken Burch]

8. Decent people don't put money before humanity.

If people don't matter more than cash, nothing progressive or compassionate or democratic in the small-d sense is even possible.

Greece proposed compromises, but Merkel wouldn't accept anything but the complete abandonment of everything the SYRIZA government was elected to do. Merkel had no right to demand that Greece surrender its sovereignty and dignity as a nation.

The Greek people committed no crime here-only the oligarchs were to blame.

[DesMoinesDem]

22. So you as a decent person have given all of your money to the Greek people, right?

Or do you just want someone else to give them money?

[geek tragedy]

23. by the same token Tsipras has no right to demand money from German workers nt

[Javaman]

20. I haven't bought Greek bonds, but I have donated money to help feed the Greeks. nt

[cemaphonic]

7. I think viewing this crisis as some sort of modern morality play is simplistic and foolish

At the very least, it has shown that Greece is a bad fit for the EZ, and should probably leave so they can control their own monetary policy. And it has definitely put one of the structural flaws in the whole EU project into stark relief - if they are going to have a common currency, they need better tools to distribute wealth more evenly than the hodgepodge of national, supranational, and private banks they have now, and that probably means that each member nation would have to give up even more economic autonomy than they already have. A very hard sell, especially these days.

The US works because wealth flows from the more economically productive parts of the country to the less, in the form of investment, infrastructure improvement, military/aerospace/R&D facilities, welfare, etc. It's far from perfect, and there is still a lot of inequality and resentments, but just imagine where we would be if every 3 years, Mississippi had to petition New Jersey for a loan.

I don't think that Merkel, or any of the other power players in the EU want Greece to fail, but they have budgets to balance and constituents to appease too, and cannot afford (either economically or politically) to keep throwing money at Greece forever.

[Ken Burch]

9. It's not "throwing money" at Greece to let Greece raise taxes rather than cut pensions

It's not Merkel's place to say that the situation must be rectified solely reducing spending-the fact is, if Greece cuts anything more, it will no longer be a civilized nation, because a civilized nation must have a decent pension system and a strong social welfare system-without those, a nation is barbaric and without humanity.

[underahedgerow]

15. Hey, their pension FRAUD is a major cause of of the collapse. Billions of bucks annually to people

who are dead or claiming false illness, disability & injury, avoiding taxes, etc. I have very little pity and I hope they get out of the EU and stop dragging it down. Let them solve it themselves.

[trusty elf]

10. .....

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[Ken Burch]

14. That graphic works even better with this music being played at the same time.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. The people who deposited the money that was lent to Greece.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. Saying it's a country 'v. Merkel' is a leading question (nt)