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[KMOD]

This message was self-deleted by its author (KMOD) on Tue Oct 20, 2015, 08:38 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Maedhros]

1. The best thing to do is defeat Fast Track, and make them show us the bill

before it can be voted on.

No open disclosure, no TPP.

Passing Fast Track just gives them momentum.

[Maedhros]

3. To interpret the effort to defeat Fast Track as an effort to keep us in the dark

is raving lunacy.

Volumes have been written analyzing the leaked portions of the TPP, by solidly liberal sources, that it's easy for us to make an informed decision about whether to grant Fast Track status or to kill it - and the bill.

Kill Fast Track. Let them re-submit the bill publicly for debate.

[Art_from_Ark]

6. What is Congress hiding?

Perhaps you should ask the Republican leadership, which controls both houses, and which is firmly supporting Obama on fast track.

[Art_from_Ark]

8. Sez who?

Read this and weep:

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/04/gop-confident-on-fast-track-votes-117307.html

[Art_from_Ark]

10. Wake up and smell the coffee

"Obama has forged an unusual alliance with House Republicans over trade, and is seeking fast track, formally called trade promotion authority, to speed passage of trade deals through Congress. Fast track would allow a president to present a trade deal to Congress for an up-or-down vote, without amendments. Obama is pressing for fast track as the U.S. and 11 other nations negotiate the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a major free-trade deal.

"House Majority Whip Steve Scalise, a Louisiana Republican, said Obama should “step up and provide leadership in his conference” to get votes on fast track. At a news conference, Scalise wouldn’t say he has the votes to pass the bill and said: “We are still working through it.”

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/house-republicans-suggest-theyre-short-of-votes-for-fast-track-trade-power-2015-04-29

"The trade legislation is a top priority for Obama, but also for Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) and the bill’s chief House sponsor, Ways and Means Chairman Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), who shepherded it through his panel and has been furiously reaching out to fellow Republicans to build support in his caucus. The Ryan bill is key to the trade deal known as Trans-Pacific Partnership or TPP, which would ease trading between the United States, Japan and 10 other nations."

http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/240857-gop-scrambling-to-limit-defections-on-trade

[Art_from_Ark]

12. You were the one who started this thread,

laying the blame for non-disclosure of TPP at the feet of Congress. I have pointed out that not only are both Houses of Congress controlled by Republicans, but the Republican leadership in both houses is firmly behimd Obama's quest for fast track.

And I have been following this issue for several years, and have seen it debated on televised sessions of the Japanese parliament. It is a raw deal for the little guy.

[Art_from_Ark]

16. Congress is controlled by Republicans

The Republican leadership is for fast track.
I have provided evidence of same.

And I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I don't want you to decide for yourself-- I am only providing evidence about Republican support in the US, and information from my own personal experience with the TPP debate in another country.

[cali]

44. Baloney. If that were true, you could find out a lot

And repukes want to pass the TPA just for you so you can read it because they're just so altruistic.

You can read leaked process documents that reveal USTR priorities. You can read 3 major late round draft chapters; Investment, Intellectual Property and Environment. We know from comments made by the WH, the USTR and reps of other nations, that all but a few issues in the agreement are settled. Hell, we even know what those issues are.

I won't go on, because you don't really want to know. You want to trust the President.

[cali]

36. that is patently untrue. people "freaking out about it" include, but are not limited to

the vast majority of congressional dems. As of now, despite the epic arm twisting and cajoling for the WH TPA/TPP war room in the Eisenhower Building, less than 20 Democrats in the House have gone on record supporting the TPP. Over 150 are on the record in opposition to it. In the Senate, only 4 Democrats are on the record in support of the TPP.

Labor Unions: Almost all have come out against the TPP. I think one union may have stayed on the sidelines. The AFL-CIO, SEIU, Communication Workers, and the rest- all have been actively fighting it for YEARS.

Environmental Groups: All against it: Sierra Club, Natural Resources Defense Council, World Wildlife Fund, Audubon, Earth Justice, 350.org, League of Conservation Voters, and on and on. They have all analyzed the leaked Environmental Chapter and excoriated it, particularly regarding oceans and enforcement.

http://ourfuture.org/20150122/environmental-groups-denounce-fast-track-trade-process

Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz- both Nobel winning economists: Opposed

Virtually every liberal public interest advocacy org, from the Electronic Frontier Foundation to Public Citizen have been fighting this for years and years.

http://www.citizenstrade.org/ctc/blog/2015/04/27/2009-organizations-call-on-congress-to-oppose-fast-track-authority-for-the-tpp/
https://www.eff.org/

I could go on. I could tell you who's been lobbying heavily for it for years- like the Chamber of Commerce and Monsanto, Halliburton and the oil and gas industry- some of the worst corporate actors. But really what's the point? You'll ignore the facts presented in this post, maybe just ignore the post altogether.

It appears to me that you're going on trust in President Obama; I've been reading and researching the tpp for over two years now. You want to go on trust fine, but don't make claims like the one you did in your op about how the only people "freaking out over the tpp/tpa are on DU". It's not a lie: You honestly are that lacking in information.

[cali]

52. wtf? Fewer than 20 House dems are supporting it. The support comes almost

entirely from House Republicans, the strong majority of whom support it- and it breaks down that way in the Senate to where only 3 dems have come out in support of it- though almost surely some of those who have been mute on it or said they're leaning for it, will vote aye on the tpa this afternoon.

It is one of the most partisan fights of the last 6 years- only this time it's repukes who are supporting the President on this.

Your lack of knowledge on this issue is breathtaking. Unfuckingbelievable that you have the nerve to just make this shit up and post it.

Shame on you.

[Enthusiast]

14. I resent that. The President has a completely different set of priorities than working America.

Personally I believe he has already sold us out on a number of issues. The TPP is just the latest issue. I don't see it as raving lunacy. I no longer trust this President at all.

[think]

45. Clinton worked with the republicans to pass NAFTA just like Obama is doing with the TPP

So soon you'll get to see this one too....

[Maedhros]

51. I have no words for how ridiculous this post is.

/ignore list.

[cali]

30. quite right.

not that there's really any point in discussing this with those who support it. They're almost entirely "trust and love" supporters of President Obama's. They won't read anything that isn't propaganda for the tpp and tpa. they won't consider any of the drawbacks. their support for the tpp- and many have said this- is firmly rooted in their 100% trust of Daddy, er, President Obama.

[winter is coming]

46. Bills can be reintroduced. If TPP is such a swell idea, surely once the public sees it,

they'll badger their Congresscritters to pass a similar bill post-haste.

"All or nothing" and "now or never" arguments are the province of high-pressure sales people who don't want you to look too closely at what you're getting.

[A Little Weird]

48. Well said!

[ucrdem]

5. Exactly.

I've been wondering why this thing has been getting the treatment and I'm beginning to see what's going on.

K'n'R

[Demeter]

15. It's not Congress, it's the President

Don't blame them for the policy that Obama and the neoliberal/neocon string-pullers in the Cabinet and the shadow government have put in place.

Congressional hands have been tied. And they resent it. Give them the strength to resist. Tell them you support them in the fight against Fast Track and TPP and TiPP and any other such scheme.

[Jesus Malverde]

17. +1

[ucrdem]

19. If Congress decides that the deal doesn't meet the goals they have set they can pull the plug.

TPA-2015 includes the following provisions:

Strengthens Consultations with Congress and the Public: New and expanded provisions empower Congress and ensure it plays a meaningful role in negotiations.

 Ensures Access to Text: Statutorily ensures that every Member of Congress has access to negotiating text, and also provides for staff access to text.

 Greater Transparency During Negotiations and Before Signing: Requires USTR to publish trade agreements 60
days before signing them, and to publish detailed summaries of U.S. proposals throughout.

 Creates a Transparency Officer: Creates new position at USTR to consult with Congress and advise the USTR on
transparency policies and engage and assist the public.

 Strengthens Congressional Consultations: Requires USTR to meet and consult with any interested Member of
Congress, at any time. Expands scope of consultation requirements before, during, and after negotiations.

 Allows All Members to Participate in Negotiating Process: Allows any Member of Congress to be designated as a
Congressional Adviser and accredited to attend negotiating rounds.

 Establishes House and Senate Advisory Groups on Negotiations: Creates House and Senate Advisory Groups on
Negotiations to oversee ongoing trade talks and requires regular, scheduled meetings. Provides for any Member of
Congress to submit views.

Keeps Congress in Control of Implementing Bills: New and expanded provisions ensure that Congress retains control over implementing legislation and provides rules for consideration without amendment.

 Meaningfully Extends TPA: Extends TPA three years, with an option to renew an additional three years – allowing
authority for the next Administration.

 Provides Robust Reporting Requirements: Expands reporting requirements on the effects of trade agreements.
Requires that all reports be made public.

 Protects U.S. Sovereignty: New provisions affirm that trade agreements cannot change U.S. law without
Congressional action.

 Clarifies Scope of Implementing Bills: Clarifies that implementing bills include “only such provisions as are strictly
necessary or appropriate to implement” trade agreements.

 Tightens Congressional Oversight: Ensures TPA procedures apply only to agreements concluded within a specified
time frame and tightens entry-into-force procedures.

 Ensures Oversight for Ongoing Negotiations: Ensures that TPA applies to ongoing negotiations, including oversight
and consultation requirements.

 Provides Strong, Comprehensive Disapproval Process: TPA can be disallowed if agreement makes inadequate
progress in meeting objectives, and new language extends disapproval to all notice and consultation requirements.

 Provides New Consultation and Compliance Resolution: Creates a new mechanism to remove expedited
procedures for a trade agreement if, in the judgment of either the House or Senate, that agreement does not meet the requirements of TPA.

[TheKentuckian]

53. Can you count to 218 or even 51? Pass fast track and the Republicans will have to be

counted on to protect workers and the environment.

[RiverLover]

38. + another. Progressive Congress doesn't want TPA & want the people have a say in the TPP. /nt

[cali]

18. kill it,

Kill the tpa, kill the tpp. I don't want to read the rest of it. History, what I've read, U.S. trade priorities, expert analysis of the tpa, as well as the leaked chapters of the tpp, are enough for me to want to see it dead. It's not like we don't already tabernacle agreements with the majority of the tpp nations, and we trade extensively with all of them. Tariffs are low. The China thing is bullshit. We can come back to it or forge separate deals, but for now, kill it

[ucrdem]

20. Based on what I've read I'm very interested in seeing what they've come up with.

Keystone got flack and didn't happen and there's no reason to think if TPP gets flack it won't suffer the same fate. But I'd like to make up my own mind. Or is there something the "populists" are hoping we won't get to see? Because that's the way it's starting to look.

[cali]

21. Keystone will happen- and on that, I have a lot of sympathy for President Obama

and Hillary Clinton. That oil will be extracted in Canada. It will come here. What remains is a truly horribly Hobson's choice: Another pipeline (we already have lots of them) or rail. Oil transport by rail has increased by a factor of hundreds in the last few years. And President Obama has done something really good in working to make new regs regarding that transport- including transport in safer tanker cars, but he can't do much to massively remake our rail infrastructure. Lac Megantic redux, here in the U.S. hangs over this debate. Transport by pipeline doesn't carry the risks that transport by rail does re a Lac Megantic type incident, but a big pipeline leak would have much more devastating environmental implications.

Look, take it as you wish, but my opposition is rooted in history and in what was revealed by leaked draft chapters and leaked process documents; some take the position that leaked draft chapters don't tell us anything because "they're only drafts". I beg to differ. They're late round drafts. We know some things are still in there- like the extending of patents for drugs through "greening" which enables a pharmaceutical company to make minor changes to a drug and then extend its patent life. And one thing we did get a picture of through leaked process docs, is what the priorities of USTR negotiators are. Those priorities appear to lack balance- particularly in the Intellectual Property Rights Chapter. Personally, I thought the Environmental Chapter looked a lot better, but enforcement is problematic.

In addition, the tpa itself, which does a lot more than merely enforce a straight up or down vote, appears to have some problems- as Senators and some experts have pointed out.

I'm assuming you know that if the tpa passes the tpp almost certainly passes. And I don't see that as benefiting enough people- either here or in the 11 other TPP partner nations.

[ucrdem]

24. It hasn't yet, and you're making a lot of assumptions. I'd like to read it, thanks.

I helped elect this Democratic government and I'd prefer that senators of suspect affiliation stay the freak out of the process if they're going to misrepresent it at every opportunity. I don't particularly trust Sanders and Warren, don't particularly like them, didn't vote for them and hope I never have the opportunity. And no that's not a TOS violation in case you're wondering:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[cali]

27. I understand how you feel. I don't trust President Obama at all on this.

He's lied so often on this- and of course other things. But I don't root my opposition in whether or not I trust or don't trust any given politician. I trust my research on the history of ftas, I trust the analysis of experts like Sean Flynn and Joseph Stiglitz, as well as the NRDC and WWF.

I have voted for Bernie. And of course, I'll have the opportunity to vote for him again.

I do get where you conserva-dems come from. You don't trust liberals over repukes. That's your choice. I don't totally trust Sanders- or any other politician, but unlike Obama, Bernie doesn't have a long record of breaking his word and expressing contempt for his base.

[ucrdem]

29. I don't think you understand the term liberal. At all. nt

[cali]

31. And I think you have an outsider's view of what us liberals

are.

[ucrdem]

33. Hilarious. nt

[cali]

37. aw, you're so cute!

the dem party is a big tent- and there have always been lots of conservative democrats in it. You have tons of company.

[Hoyt]

22. You will see it, if it's ever finished, fast track or not. Congress doesn't vote on secret agreement

Anything they consider is printed/downloadable somewhere.


I'll even bet there will be books produced for this big government secret -- by private corporations - if the TPP is considered good enough to submit to Congress.

We can put the leather bound version on our coffee tables, and the paper version in the bathroom.

[ucrdem]

23. I think the worry is that without TPA it won't get the other signatures and thus won't come

before Congress and won't ever make it onto our coffee tables and er .. hearts.

[Hoyt]

25. You are right, although I think the real worry is same as Tbaggers- Obama is the anti-christ put

here to sell us into slavery.

[joshcryer]

35. If there's TPA, TPP passes.

That's what has so many people (here) upset. There won't be a SOPA / net neutrality style protest against TPP.

[leftofcool]

26. I want to see it as well.

[Enrique]

28. I see, thwart those nasty Republicans by giving them exactly what they want!

brilliant!

[cali]

32. lol. up is down, the sky is neon green

Warren and Sanders aren't to be trusted along with labor unions, environmental groups and IP rights organization, but the worst of the worst are good guy in this; from congressional repukes to the Chamber of Commerce and some of the nastiest corporations with the worst records.

woot. love these "trust the President" guys.

[Art_from_Ark]

39. Well, I think we should, you know, trust the President in everything he does

[cali]

40. perfectly apt applied to many on DU.

:rofll:

[joshcryer]

34. Warren thinks it's salvageable with amendments.

[RKP5637]

41. Government by the people for the people in a democracy. What a F'en joke that has become. n/t

[99Forever]

42. Neoliberal bullshit.

Up is down. War is peace. Secrecy is transparency.

The gullibility runs deep in this one.

[tblue37]

43. Yeah, congress is so responsive to what the overwhelming majority of voters want, even

those who can't contribute brazillions of dollars to their campaigns. What could possibly be the risk in letting a bad deal get fast-tracked and then trusting that congress will vote it down?

Do I need this?

[A Little Weird]

47. Are you serious?

It's being kept secret because the people who wrote it know it is terrible for the American people. The republicans in Congress are mostly for it; they will pass it because it gives even more power to corporations at the expense of the people. President Obama is destroying his legacy by trying to ram this through. Where was this fighting spirit before? It seems he is only willing to fight when his opponents are other democrats.

Kill the TPA. If the TPP is so great then let it be made public, discussed, and amended if needed. You know, like a democracy.

[cali]

49. The President could release it anytime. WHAT IS HE HIDING FROM US?

[Autumn]

50. No you really don't want to see it for yourself. If you did there is plenty that has been

leaked for you to know why the republicans in Congress are supporting it.