Why are airlines pressuring women to change seats because of sexist men

[pnwmom]

who don't want to sit next to them? Why shouldn't the objecting man be the one to find a new seat or leave the plane?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/us/aboard-flights-conflicts-over-seat-assignments-and-religion.html

Francesca Hogi, 40, had settled into her aisle seat for the flight from New York to London when the man assigned to the adjoining window seat arrived and refused to sit down. He said his religion prevented him from sitting beside a woman who was not his wife. Irritated but eager to get underway, she eventually agreed to move.

SNIP

A growing number of airline passengers, particularly on trips between the United States and Israel, are now sharing stories of conflicts between ultra-Orthodox Jewish men trying to follow their faith and women just hoping to sit down. Several flights from New York to Israel over the last year have been delayed or disrupted over the issue, and with social media spreading outrage and debate, the disputes have spawned a protest initiative, an online petition and a spoof safety video from a Jewish magazine suggesting a full-body safety vest (“Yes, it’s kosher!”) to protect ultra-Orthodox men from women seated next to them on airplanes.

SNIP

Jeremy Newberger, a 41-year-old documentary filmmaker who witnessed an episode on a Delta flight from New York to Israel, was among several Jewish passengers who were offended.

“I grew up Conservative, and I’m sympathetic to Orthodox Jews,” he said. “But this Hasid came on, looking very uncomfortable, and wouldn’t even talk to the woman, and there was five to eight minutes of ‘What’s going to happen?’ before the woman acquiesced and said, ‘I’ll move.’ It felt like he was being a yutz.”

SNIP

[arcane1]

1. Because religious beliefs are granted an undeserved superior status n/t

[Johonny]

12. +1

[angel823]

24. ^^^this^^^^

indeed.

Angel in Texasperated

[whathehell]

54. Maybe more men being granted undeserved superior status

[whatthehey]

86. Really? You can cite an example of a secular male being granted this consideration?

Put up or shut up. This is religious privilege 100%

[whathehell]

109. You can "put up or shut up", yourself, Ms. Manners, but since you asked,

Military Men are frequently upgraded to first class cabins at no charge.

As to "secular" males, I've never heard one ask for this "consideration", have you?

Without that, I don't know how one could make a comparison.

[atreides1]

155. Military personnel!

Both male and female have received that upgrade...so it isn't just reserved for "Military Men"!

And how do I know this, because my wife was in the USAF and was upgraded to first class on her last deployment before retiring.

[whathehell]

157. Glad to hear it.

[valerief]

106. Definitely, but I wonder if there are instances where a religious woman

is granted superior status over a secular man.

[arcane1]

134. If there is, it's rare indeed!

[reflection]

145. Yes.

Religion is nothing more than politics with a dash of the supernatural thrown in to lend it legitimacy and superiority. Religious requests of this nature should be granted no more consideration than any other non-religious request.

[hifiguy]

147. Plus a googolplex.

No one should get a bye for this fairytale bullshit.

[nolabear]

2. I don't know about you but they'd bettr move my ass to 1st Class.

I preselected my seats for room and proximity to exits. I'll just stay where my unclean self is, unless they improve the deal considerably.

[Phentex]

8. Same for me.

Otherwise no freakin way.

[cwydro]

13. Damn right.

Besides, why don't they make HIM move?

[MANative]

3. Fuck that. It's his problem; he should have moved if it was such an issue.

Religion is the biggest excuse for stupidity on the planet.

[ladjf]

5. Religion is worse than that.

Religion is a "political duck blind" allowing individuals to behave in any way they wish, claiming it is their religious practice.

[MANative]

7. Well said and absolutely accurate. nt

[ladjf]

11. A few years back, I met a young middle Eastern man who claimed to be a

devout Islamic activist. My experience with Islam up to that point was that I had skimmed over about a third of the Koran.
I did come across some passages that interested me so, I attempted to discuss the Koran with the young man. Much to my surprise he showed no familiarity either with the Koran or Islam in general. In other words, he was a total phony hiding behind a legitimate religion.

I've met many Americans who claimed to be Christians who were equally ignorant of the Bible and the basic ethics of Christianity.
In fact, many seemed to have beliefs that were diametrically opposed to Jesus's teaching.

People need to catch on the Religion has become the weapon of choice for all sorts of unscrupulous people who are fighting for power and money.

[MANative]

17. I've had similar experiences.

My brother is a christian minister (Disciples of Christ - pretty liberal) and a true biblical scholar, spending close to thirty years in research, including significant time in Jerusalem and Rome. I've absorbed a few things from him over the years. It stuns me what people claim is from the bible. What they spout is often dead wrong, and nearly always wildly distorted (as is the bible itself, from likely original texts and meanings).

I'm the least religious person I know (you'll only catch me in a church for a wedding or funeral, and even then, reluctantly), but I like to think I'm actually pretty christian in my actions.

Religion is the refuge of charlatans and thieves.

[3catwoman3]

74. It is always fun to hear fundies try to...

...debate the scriptures with John Fugelsang. He politely takes them apart every time.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. It Is My Religious Practice. . .

. . .to show disdain toward people who are overtly religious.

How they gonna stop me?

[notadmblnd]

77. he should have had to pay for both seats

and for my new one in 1st class.

[Major Nikon]

4. Because they can get away with it, at least until someone sues

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_seating_sex_discrimination_controversy

[Nye Bevan]

6. "Sir- please take your seat right now or you will be removed from the plane".

This should not be a difficult problem to solve. And if these people want to make sure they are not going to sit next to a woman, let them buy two seats and leave one empty.

[AwakeAtLast]

35. This is the correct answer.

[yardwork]

52. Anybody else causing a fuss would be treated that way.

[mnhtnbb]

99. Yes. Absolutely. +++++++

[leftynyc]

9. Just refuse to move

What's the big fucking deal? I saw this once on a flight from LAX/JFK and a flight attendant asked a few people if they minded moving, one very punked out guy said no problem and moved to a middle seat. If you don't want to move, don't move. It's not like they're going to cut your head off if you don't.

[pnwmom]

19. Would you ask what the big deal was if someone objected to sitting next to a black person

based on religious beliefs? And the airline asked the black person to move?

Why is the airline asking any woman to accommodate the preferences of a prejudiced man? Why don't the airlines tell these men that they can sit in their assigned seats, find another empty seat, or leave?

What's the "big fucking deal"? It's incredibly insulting to the woman to be told that sitting next to her would make a man "unclean." And she shouldn't have to move an inch because of his prejudice.

[awoke_in_2003]

28. +1000. nt

[PassingFair]

33. +2000 nt

[bettyellen]

82. Speak on it, sister!

[leftynyc]

95. Let me get this straight

I've been here for years and I've seen people defend burkas, niqabs and other garments that disappear a woman from all of society and while many find those garments visually uncomfortable to see, I don't see anyone (in the US) trying to FORCE these women to dress differently. That's perfectly ok. But asking someone to move a seat - not force them, just asking is a bridge too far.

And I'll point out that I said to ignore the request. If the man didn't want to sit next to a woman, fuck him and let him pay for a whole row for himself if that's his problem. But it's interesting what people here will defend and what pisses them off. Very interesting indeed.

[jberryhill]

101. Not sure I understand your point

Anyone way may wear what suits them. What someone else is wearing doesn't require me to make any accommodation for them.

If someone is suggesting that I need to move out of my seat because my sex, race, or whatever, is not acceptable to them, that is an entirely different kettle of fish.

A "request" from a flight attendant is like a request from a law enforcement officer. As noted in all of the safety videos, failure to obey signs, placards, and crew member instructions is a criminal offense.

[leftynyc]

104. Oh please

a request from a flight attendant is the same as a police officer? That's your argument? A request is exact same as failure to obey signs? Seriously? Well, I think that's a completely bullshit argument.

[jberryhill]

111. That's quite a well reasoned response

But could you please explain the analogy you were trying to make in the first place?

If someone is wearing clothes that I don't care for, they are not requesting any imposition on me. They are not expecting me to do anything for them, and likewise, I would not tell a stranger what they should or should not wear.

But if someone comes onto a plane, and enlists a crew member to say, "Excuse me, but this passenger does not like to sit next to negroes, would you please move?" you are saying that is somehow analogous to letting people wear the clothing that they choose to wear?

How is that at all similar?

Oh, but it is different if we are talking about negroes, right?

It is not a "polite request" when one is asked to move because one is a woman, any more so than if one is asked to move because one is a negro.

If someone got onto a plane and said, "I'm sorry, but could you please move? My faith does not permit me to sit next to Jews" would that also be just a nothing-burger to you?

And, yes, a flight attendant is a crew member and this "request" is coming from someone who has the authority to make you move. In fact, if you get up when the "fasten seatbelt" light is on, the first thing any FA will say to you is something like "Could you please sit down, the fasten seat belt light is on."

I'm going to guess that a person of your manners, shown by the way you address people whom you don't know, likely does not fly much in the first place, but it is made clear in the required text of airline safety videos that failure to obey crewmember instructions can land your ass in trouble.

So while it may, in fact, be merely a "request" that you move because you are a woman, negro, Jew, whatever... it is a request coming from a person with authority to escalate beyond a request.

[leftynyc]

114. So you will have no problem

finding a link to a situation like the one you are describing. That a flight attendant FORCED AND DEMANDED a person to move (because according to you, they have that authority) for a stupid request like this one. As far as defending stupid religious laws like wearing a burka or niqab, that happens here all the time. But this one seems to have you all atwitter. You don't want to move, don't fucking move - nobody is FORCING anyone to do anything no matter what you think about flight attendants having some imaginary authority.

As far as your situations where a person doesn't want to sit next to a black person, perhaps you can tell me what religion has that kind of mandate. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.

[jberryhill]

118. You must be reading something I did not write

Your last sentence is really revealing, since you seem to think that it is not insulting to request women to move, but it would be a different situation if it were a black person.

The religion that has that kind of mandate? There are any number of people who subscribe to "white power" Aryan beliefs, which they profess as Christian religious beliefs, who do not, as a principle of their religious beliefs, want to be seated next to black people.

But it is further interesting that someone's personal preference gets some sort of exalted status, as long as it is called a "religious belief" as opposed to any other type of "belief" a person may have. As far as any one person is concerned, someone else's "religious beliefs" are merely that other person's personal preferences.

What religious belief entitles one to go around insulting other people on the basis of sex? It is an inherently insulting request.

And it is consistent with other things you are inadvertently revealing here that you do not understand the legal authority of flight attendants, no doubt because it is a career in which women figure prominently.

For the third time, would you please explain the point you were trying to make in relation to clothing?

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/interfering-with-a-flight-attendant-or-crewmember.htm

Any time you disobey a crewmember’s instructions, you run the risk of violating federal law. But civil penalties and criminal prosecutions usually result only when passengers repeatedly ignore, argue with, or disobey flight attendants; or when they act out in a way that is dangerous.

To avoid trouble in case of a disagreement:

If possible, do as you are asked.
Do not raise your voice or make threats.
If you’re having a problem with an attendant, ask to speak to the flight attendant in charge.
Never, ever touch a crewmember.

[leftynyc]

127. First off

I never said it wasn't insulting so you can stop shoving words into my mouth. What I did say was fucking ignore the request and refuse to move - PERIOD. My reference to clothing is that many here will defend the right of a woman to be forced to wear a burka or niqab over religious observance but someone making a request - that you are under ZERO obligation to honor - is a bridge too far.

Your citing of rules that have ZERO to do with this situation is hilarious. I haven't seen anything about any flight attendant DEMANDING anybody move and DEMANDING you OBEY their request. It's all bullshit. This has been a very enlightening conversation and proves what I've always suspected of DU.

[jberryhill]

139. No, no one ever argued this:

"... the right of a woman to be forced to wear a burka or niqab over religious observance..."

No one ever said it was appropriate to force a woman to wear anything. That is categorically wrong.

It is equally categorically wrong to penalize women for wearing things. That was the point of the argument over the French ban on those kinds of things.

It is wrong to coerce women to wear things. It is also wrong to coerce women not to wear things.

The Haredim also have rules about women and what they can and cannot wear, is that correct?

[leftynyc]

154. Yes and I have no patience for that either

First they educate their women and then turn them into baby making machines. I simply cannot believe all the commotion and nonsense I'm reading on this thread over a REQUEST. Just say fucking no and tell the misogynst asshole to buy his own row of seats. It's not the end of civilization and nobody is going to get hurt or die from it. As for those who would then eat a ham sandwich in his face (not you, another poster on this thread), they're what make some of the left appear to be insufferable assholes and no different than those assholes who want a pig farm next to a mosque. No difference whatsoever.

[jberryhill]

121. And, yes, here is the link you requested

http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-1000773068


Woman forced to sit in back of plane sues El Al
09/08/2012, 16:02
Globes' correspondent
The Florida woman is seeking NIS 50,000 in compensation for emotional distress and gender discrimination.

An American Jewish woman, Debra Ryder, is demanding NIS 50,000 in compensation from El Al Israel Airlines Ltd. (TASE: ELAL) for allegedly switching her seat on a flight from the US, because haredi (ultra-orthodox) men refused to sit next to her. She claims that the flight steward moved her to a seat in the back of the plane, which did not meet her medical needs.

[leftynyc]

123. El Al

is NOT an American airline. Try wearing a shirt that shows your belly on Kuwaiti Air and let me know what happens. It would be interesting but entirely irrelevant to this conversation.

[pnwmom]

126. It is subject to US laws when it flies out of NY. And Delta was one of the airlines in the OP. n/t

[leftynyc]

128. What fucking laws

are you talking about? The laws that say a person can't make a request? The woman is obviously free to sue the airline for her treatment so what exactly is your beef? Yes, Delta is the airline in the above story and that has exactly what to do with a request being made and you being perfectly free to tell them you wont move? Tell the flight attendant to find someone else or tell the stupid religious man to find another flight or buy an entire row of seats if he has a problem with sitting with a woman. It seems just the request has you all in a lather about absolutely nothing.

[pnwmom]

132. The pilot refused to fly until the man was seated. Instead of arresting the man

the flight attendants put pressure on other passengers to accommodate the man. A WHOLE PLANE was threatened with being delayed if the man's demand wasn't met. That is a form of pressure.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.636745

[leftynyc]

135. Read that entire article

and it didn't say anywhere the pilot refused to take off until the man was seated. Just who would have complained if they had called security instead? Nobody except the religious freak. The bitching about this is so over the top I'm sitting here cracking up. I would not only have refused to move, I would have called the cops myself. Just another time it becomes obvious that on DU, only Islam gets a pass on their disgusting practices against women. Someone was ASKED to move seats and it's the freeking end of civilization. Enjoy your outrage.

[pnwmom]

136. The flight attendants SHOULD have called security on the man but did not. Instead they allowed

the man to harass other passengers. They failed to do their job when they allowed the man to pressure the woman to give up her seat.

DU doesn't give Islam a pass on its practices against women. I never have. I won't give that pass to fundies of any religion.

[leftynyc]

150. Islam gets a pass on everything

on DU except for FGM. The man should have gotten off the fucking plane if nobody would honor the request to move. And now they'll have to pay for that stupidity which I also have no problem with. But I don't fall in line with thinking it's the end of civilization so I'm being made out to be a bigot. That kind of simple minded thinking doesn't touch me at all.

[pnwmom]

156. Not true. They don't get a pass with me on their mistreatment of women,

either here or in the countries where they are in the majority. And I consider pressuring women to wear the veil to be part of their mistreatment of women, among other examples.

Unfortunately, the fundies among all religious groups, including Jewish orthodox, all seem to target women.

[jberryhill]

141. I flew Qatar last month PHL-DOH-SIN

...along with my wife, who most certainly did not cover up anything that she doesn't normally cover up.

That trip also included the Doha airport. The Doha airport even has smoking lounges. And, my goodness, there were uncovered women, including my wife, smoking away in Qatar wearing no head covering at all, in a mixed gender lounge.

EL AL flights to or from the US, and more to the point on tickets issued in the US, is most certainly subject to US law.

That's why EL AL apparently settled with the woman who claimed mistreatment on the basis of sex. Haven't seen one of those types of suits for Qatar or Emirates.

So, as you had requested a link to this actually happening, let's not dive into the world of imagination for YOUR hypothetical.

[leftynyc]

151. You haven't read about it because

they wouldn't let you on the plane in the first place. Happened to a friend of mine on Kuwaiti airlines and she had to run around the airport to find something else to wear. I guess the fact she didn't make a huge stink about it and said it's their airline, I'll oblige them makes her a bigot also.

[pnwmom]

125. And apparently as long as force wasn't involved, you'd think it would be fine

for a flight attendant to allow another passenger to pressure a black person to give up his seat, on the grounds that for religious reasons, a passenger believes he will be unclean if forced to sit next to a black person.

[jberryhill]

142. It's just a request

Just like the ones that home care nursing agencies get from patients who don't want a home nurse of the wrong gender, race, religion, etc..

You know, a friendly request to remove this inferior person from my presence.

No big deal.

[pnwmom]

124. If you don't think so, then you should try standing in the aisle AFTER the attendant

asks you to sit down.

When you get off the plane you could be arrested. These men should be, too.

[leftynyc]

149. Actually I was for arresting him

before the plane took off and when he started making a scene. I have no problem with the flight attendant making a request but if everyone turned her/him down, either the man gets off the fucking plane or sits where he was assigned. But I'll never get my knickers in a knot over a request. I guess to some here that makes me a bigot. I can live with that.

[pipi_k]

108. I actually understood

your point, but didn't say anything in case you came back to clarify and it wasn't what I was thinking, but it was.

I know you weren't saying "What's the big deal?" about someone asking a woman to move.

You were saying "What's the big deal?" about letting them ask (or demand) and then refusing to move.



People need to read a post as many times as necessary to understand it instead of reading their own interpretation into it and then looking rather silly for jumping all over someone who's agreeing with them, but using different words.

[cali]

148. sorry, but that's a totally absurd comparison.

how someone is attired doesn't in any way impinge on my rights. some asswipe holding up a plane because he's a bigoted fuckwad? Yeah, that's different.

[leftynyc]

152. Then call security and

get him off the fucking plane. I see nothing wrong with making a request. Apparently it's the end of civilization for some people.

[lame54]

10. because she is obviously more reasonable to deal with...

no one wants to deal with the crazy

[RedCappedBandit]

14. Fuck that. They can pay for their adjacent seats or get the fuck off the plane. nt

[B2G]

20. The article states she was in the aisle and he was assigned to the window

but he couldn't sit "beside" her? You would think a New York to London flight would have at least 3 seats per side. Weird.

How do these people function in public?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

23. Depends on the aircraft.

For example, in the A330 the coach seats are arranged like so: window seat, aisle seat, aisle, a row of 4 seats, aisle, then an aisle seat and a window seat. So if you aren't in the 4-seat center section you could have a window seat with an aisle seat next to you.

How do these people function in public? By bullying others to accede to the demands of their religion. If I'd been asked to move I'd have agreed to it only if they moved me (and not him) to first class or gave me a free ticket. Otherwise I'd have glued my butt to that seat and told them no deal. That bigot can find another seat or charter his own damn airplane where he can sit next to whomever he wants.

[B2G]

25. I'd do exactly the same...and talk to him the whole way.

[bvf]

46. While eating ham sandwiches and offering to share. n/t

[B2G]

53. lollol.

[KittyWampus]

44. Let me tell you how the Hasidic function around here in NY-

they live in their own self-segregated communities. There's a term used for when they set up a border within which they all live. It's a wire called an "eyruv".

They move into a neighborhood and send their kids to private religious schools and vote down funds for the public schools in the community.

Mostly, they have large families and not very much money.

They are FUNDAMENTALISTS.

[jberryhill]

112. Has the situation with bike lanes been resolved?

I understand they were also trying to stop the designation of bicycle lanes in certain areas of Brooklyn, because it brings in those slutty women in skimpy clothing.

[Arugula Latte]

43. I hear that the wheel well provides a lovely panoramic view.

Hey, their God will protect them if they pray to "Him," right?

[hatrack]

88. Or God can part the seas, and he can fucking walk to Israel

What century is it again?

[KG]

15. religion LOL n/t

[MuseRider]

18. You know that "safety vest" is a spoof

when they suggest that he wears it. Nope, they would most assuredly insist that the women around them wear the damned thing.

[Smithryee]

83. I thought of this when I heard this

[SamKnause]

21. I would not move.

I would not do one single thing to accommodate them !!!

The airline should tell them to take their seat, or get off the plane.

If they do not want to be in mixed (male and female) company they should charter a plane.

[pnwmom]

22. Or they can buy two seats, so the one next to them is empty. n/t

[Man from Pickens]

26. areas for voluntary gender segregation on planes might not be a bad idea

more for the women than the men, but may as well be all equality-like about it

I bet a lot of women would be more comfortable flying knowing there was no risk of being groped while they slept

[pnwmom]

48. Kind of like Rosa Parks, right? Only it would apply to all women, not just black women?

No thanks.

[Man from Pickens]

55. So you would disapprove of a grope-free zone?

keep in mind that the religious freaks are also the most likely to grope a female seat-neighbor because of all that sexual repression

the womens' zone can be in the front of the plane if your sensibilities require it

I bet a lot of women with less jerky knees would really appreciate a safety zone from handsy strangers

[pnwmom]

61. I don't think we should be seated by gender, no. But if a man tries to grope a woman

she should scream her head off and "grope" him where he won't forget it.

[awoke_in_2003]

66. the whole airplane

is a no grope zone.

[jen63]

72. How about teaching the neanderthals that grope,

not to do it. Kinda like "teaching" certain men not to rape. Women are sick and tired of always having the onus on us to keep the "men" from acting out their base "instincts."

[LeftyMom]

94. Fuck that. I can go wherever the fuck I want. I don't need some segregated ladyspace.

I'm not going to plan my life around the small percentage of men who don't understand that women are autonomous human beings. I'm going to go about my life and if some weirdo grabs me I'm going to hit him in the balls hard enough that paramedics will meet him when we land.

[stone space]

102. What % of airplane seating should be grope-free in your opinion?

So you would disapprove of a grope-free zone?

I'd prefer that it be the whole plane.

[Hekate]

129. The whole airplane is a grope-free zone.

[Zenlitened]

84. What a contemptuous view of men...

...and women alike.

This sort of thinking basically says women need to be sheltered away because men can't control their own behavior?

Ugh, no thanks on both counts.

[LiberalAndProud]

130. I wasn't aware that getting groped on planes was a problem.

Unless, of course, you're talking about the mile high club, which I always assumed was consensual. I am astounded by the things I learn on DU.

[ZombieHorde]

27. The airline could be more afraid of being labeled anti-Semitic than misogynistic.

I'm not surprised many women choose to avoid drama and move, but I think the religious fanatic should be the one to move.

[jehop61]

30. Except

for if I'm traveling with hubby, I might enjoy sitting next to him and being on the receiving end of a grop

[ZombieHorde]

93. That does sound nice.

I hope the women don't feel obligated to move. I hope the ones that do move just want to avoid drama and get the plane in the air as quickly as possible.

[treestar]

97. very true

misogyny is acceptable still.

[Puglover]

29. I'd be happy to move for one of these

people as long as I was moved to a Business Class seat.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

68. I would settle for the jump seat in the cockpit.

I want to play with the pretty dials.

[Puglover]

70. Ugh trust me.

It's boring.

I once did the jump seat AMSJFK. Landing and takeoff are fun. The rest? ZZZZZZZZZ.

Pilots bitching about how put upon they are.

I did get a chance to be in the jump seat on approach to HKG in 1996 but sadly we were not cleared for the checker board approach that day. 😞

[CanonRay]

31. My wife would tell him to shit in his hat or try another flight.

They lord over women in their cult and expect to do the same everywhere

[haikugal]

32. I would refuse, it's their problem not mine. nt

[seabeyond]

38. i would nto move. wouldnt be a consideration. another passenger could volunteer their seat

sittin next to a man. but out of principle, a group of men that dictate to women, are not gonna dictate to me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. What are your thoughts about this?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/lifestyle/2012/08/should-men-sit-next-to-kids-on-airline-flights/

[pnwmom]

39. I think it's dumb. And kind of unfair

that women are the ones stuck playing babysitter to someone else's kids. Now I know why I so often end up next to a child when I fly by myself!

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. I see.

I think it's a greater unfairness on the guys who are assumed to be pedophiles, but I guess that's just me.

[3catwoman3]

75. This is ridiculous.

It's not as if female sexual predators do not exist.

[progressoid]

67. I (51 yr old male) was seated next to an unaccompanied minor girl last year.

I think it was a Delta flight.

I see Virgin is reviewing their policy.

[Hekate]

37. "I felt like he was being a yutz." Why, yes he was.

Goooood grief.

[brooklynite]

40. Where is there evidence that the airline is "pressuring" the women to move?

[pnwmom]

41. In situations like this, the airline should escort the man off the plane or help him find an empty seat.

Instead, on more than one occasion a woman has had to change her seat to accommodate a "religious" man.

Why didn't the airlines intervene to make these men sit down in a seat instead of waiting for the women to move?

Francesca Hogi, 40, had settled into her aisle seat for the flight from New York to London when the man assigned to the adjoining window seat arrived and refused to sit down. He said his religion prevented him from sitting beside a woman who was not his wife. Irritated but eager to get underway, she eventually agreed to move.

“But this Hasid came on, looking very uncomfortable, and wouldn’t even talk to the woman, and there was five to eight minutes of ‘What’s going to happen?’ before the woman acquiesced and said, ‘I’ll move.’ It felt like he was being a yutz.”

[Zenlitened]

81. "This plane won't go anywhere..."

"...until we get this seating situation taken care of. Will you be a good sport and help us out?"

That's the subtext, in a scene played out before everyone within earshot. And the whole plane eventually, the way gripes and gossip about delays spread on a plane.

That's pressuring. The very act of asking a woman to move puts her on the spot.

How is this not obvious?*

*Rhetorical question. The answer, of course, involves privilege and it's ability to blind us all, even despite our best intentions.

[geek tragedy]

107. because the flight attendant tells her and the entire cabin that the plane won't take off

unless she accommodates the Taliban asshole throwing the fit.

so you have dozens of people thinking "I'm going to miss my connection because this woman won't change seats?"

that's pressure

[brooklynite]

113. ...but the article doesn't say that occurs either.

[pnwmom]

122. It says the women gave in. The flight attendants should NEVER have put the women

in the position of feeling that they should move. The flight attendants were allowing the men to pressure the women. That is the same as if the flight attendants were doing it themselves. They should have supported the woman's right to stay in her own seat, and told them man to sit down. Alternatively, they could have found him another seat, or asked the WHOLE AIRPLANE, not the woman, if there was someone willing to move to the empty seat.

[Hekate]

131. That's EXACTLY how it should be done: broadcast it to the whole plane that HE wants to change

Then everyone can point and go "Neener, neener" at him.

I am amazed that this should even be a question at all.

When I fly I choose my seats well in advance, from the selections available at the time. The airlines are playing all sorts of games with seating availability and prices (the center seat is narrower and a little cheaper; fine for people built like spaghetti with no claustrophobia; the rest of us be warned). Flying is now a miserable experience from buying the tickets to finally staggering off at your destination.

We're all suffering here, buddy; get a grip.

If the flight attendants ask someone to move it better be for a damn good reason, like not splitting up a mother and young child, or not splitting up a handicapped person and attendant, and they should be prepared to offer the moved passenger an equivalent or better seat.

Sexism (and racism) are not damn good reasons.

[skepticscott]

158. If it had been me being pressured to move

I would have said to the flight attendant "If I were black, and he said that he refused to sit next to a colored person, would you make me move?"

[jberryhill]

115. If the FA is asking, there is an inherent authority situation

I travel a lot and passengers frequently work out seating arrangements to accommodate families etc., or to deal with people who book exit row seats for minors (who then have to be moved because minors can't sit in exit rows).

That's fine if the passengers can civilly work out their preferred seating.

But if a crewmember is making a "request", that is similar to a police officer making a "request". There is an inherent social pressure in the fact that someone who is fully empowered to kick your ass off the plane is asking if you will do something.

[brooklynite]

117. Again, point to an instance where the FA asked the women to move

[jberryhill]

119. Sure

http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-1000773068

Woman forced to sit in back of plane sues El Al

[Arugula Latte]

42. Exactly. These creeps can sit in cargo if they don't like their seat.

Fuck 'em -- sexist idiots who believe in primitive nonsense.

[alphafemale]

45. The person with the objections should be the one that has to change seats.

Have to sit in a center seat between a chatter on the aisle and someone that has a tissue paper bladder at the window because you are a backward, bigoted ass?

Tough shit.

[LittleBlue]

143. +1

[undeterred]

47. Men with these special needs should pay for

empty seats on one or both sides of their seat.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

49. take them to court.

This is a result if fundamentalist dictates and accommodation. It needs legal precedent to be established.

[johnnysad]

50. How come shit like this never happens to me

[pnwmom]

51. You need to fly out of NYC airports more often. n/t

[BlueJazz]

59. I've been asked to change seats several times when flying. It usually happens when I'm sitting by..

...a woman. I can't figure it out? I say a few words and the Lady then asks the Flight Attendant something like: "Would you move this sick, perverted bastard somewhere else?"

[trof]

56. I was an airline pilot. Hasidic jews were a pain in the ass.

I came to dread flights to Tel Aviv.
If there were Hasid men on the flight I was guaranteed to have problems in the cabin.

One guy slammed his meal tray into the aisle because it was served by a WOMAN who wasn't his wife. Another man I moved to first class so he would quit ranting about his religion and customs (his assigned seat was next to a nice Irish lady) and have a seat by himself. I always suspected that's what he wanted in the first place.

I really, REALLY hated to do that, but needed to deal with the situation without having to land short of destination and screw the rest of the 747 planeload of passengers.

It has been my experience that they are intolerant of anyone who doesn't belong to their sect.

FYI:
Women

Hasidic women wear clothing adhering to the principles of modest dress in Jewish law. This includes long, conservative skirts and sleeves past the elbow as well as covered necklines. Also, the women wear stockings to cover their legs; in some Hasidic groups, such as Satmar or Toldot Aharon, the stockings must be opaque.

In keeping with Jewish law, married women cover their hair, using either a sheitel (wig) or a tichel (headscarf) which is sometimes used to cover a shpitzel. In some Hasidic groups, such as Satmar, women may wear two headcoverings – a wig and a scarf or a wig and a hat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism#Women

[Arugula Latte]

73. Ugh.

All three of these Abrahamic religions have been a pox on the planet.

[Nevernose]

80. To paraphrase George Carlin:

Why are super religious so obsessed with hats? Catholics go to church, they take 'em off. Jews go to church, they put them on. Except important Jews in church, who get to take their hats off, as opposed to Catholics, who just get bigger hats the more important they get.

[pnwmom]

89. Ordinary Catholics stopped worrying about head coverings more than 50 years ago. nt

[treestar]

98. if they are that old fashioned they should not be on

such a modern contraption as an airplane.

[Curmudgeoness]

146. Your solution comes up short to me.

You moved the man who was a pain in the ass because he was seated next to a woman to first class. You should have moved the woman to first class instead.

Besides that, I can imagine that it is hell to deal with the Hasid Taliban.

[GETPLANING]

57. Why not offer the woman a nice seat in First Class

or move the ultra to another seat? Maybe put the men on the left and the women on the right? There have to be some simple solutions.

[pnwmom]

60. Would it be okay with you to put the white people on the left and the black people on the right

if some individuals thought that was needed to accommodate religious beliefs?

I like your first suggestion a lot more.

[jberryhill]

120. On most flights of any airline, First Class is full

Typically, preferred members of the airline's frequent flyer program are offered upgrades. This works out well for the airline, because by upgrading FF members to first, they can sell standby tickets in coach. It allows them to maintain the loyalty of their frequent flyers and to sell the same coach seat twice.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. The obvious solution: They should select their seat when they buy the ticket

instead of waiting till check-in time. If three of them are traveling together, they should reserve a row. Problem solved.

Yes, it may cost $25 on some airlines. but it should be a small price to pay for "purity."

On an international flight, a Hasid will routinely order a kosher meal. Why not a "kosher" seat as well?

I don't even have any hangups about sitting next to anyone, and I always reserve my seat ahead of time. (I have my totally legal and inoffensive tactic for having no one sit next to me on flights to Japan--I can sleep if no one is next to me--and it works about 3/4 of the time.)

Just as a favor to DUers, I'll reveal my tactic, assuming that none of you are ever on the same flight as me.

Go to the seating chart and look at the middle section. Most of a flight from the West Coast to Asia is over water, so there's no advantage in having a window seat. If the middle section is four across, find a row near the back that has two seats on the end occupied.

X X 0 0

This is either a couple or a parent and child.
Pick the seat on the aisle on the other end.

X X 0 X

Now the remaining empty seat is unlikely to be filled unless the flight is VERY full. A middle seat in the back of the plane? No one will choose that voluntarily.

Keep fingers crossed until the flight attendant announces that the doors are closing. Smile and look forward to your nap after the meal.

[Hekate]

133. Very clever. I will remember that. I wonder if it works over the continental US as well?

Next time I visit my sister I'll check it out.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

140. Only on jumbo jets like a 747 or similar

The trick is to be on the outside of a four-across section.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Excessively bending over backwards to accomodate religious superstition should be condemned here.

And it is, UNLESS you're talking about demands that cartoonists not caricature certain figures, or demands that an important scientific observatory not be built at an ideal high-altitude location.



that's, like, different and stuff.

[Art_from_Ark]

63. I prefer to sit by women

They usually take up less room and don't invade my space. Unlike the times when I've been scrunched between two big guys and was barely able to eat my in-flight meals.

[UtahJosh]

65. If they're really so concerned about it

why don't they purchase the whole row?

Otherwise, they should be told to buckle up or disembark, period. If they refuse to comply, they should be treated by whatever guidelines the airline normally uses on non-compliant customers.

As far as airline staff asking others to move, that's pure harassment if you ask me. I would suggest the wronged ones get together and class-action it up.

[Carolina]

137. Thank you!

This behavior is disruptive and should be treated as such. Follow the rules, take your seat or get the fuck off the plane.

BTW: Can you imagine the response if Muslims made such requests?!

[progressoid]

69. OFFS. What century are we living in?

Kick him the fuck off the plane then.

[3catwoman3]

71. As suggested somewhere above...

...buy 2 seats if you can't abide sitting next to a woman. Or, as my retired pilot husband said, buy the whole damn row.

IMO, religion should make people's lives easier, not harder. I can't see the usefulness or benefit of rules likes this.

[alarimer]

76. I'd only move to a better seat.

If I was in the middle, for example, I'd agree to move if I could have a window or an aisle. (Or Business Class, but that's unlikely). I would NOT move from an aisle or window to a middle seat. I hate the middle seat and only grudgingly sit there if I can't get something else. But no way would I move just so some religious nut can feel special. Fuck them.

[elleng]

78. The airlines should 'offer' the intransigent men the option of SITTING where assigned

or getting off the plane. THAT's THAT!

[kimbutgar]

79. I would have said no...no..no

"I'm comfortable here find him another seat". Stick it to the male chauvinist. I defer to my husband because he is my partner in life and my Dad when he was alive. But never would I back down in a public situation like this.

Now if I saw a harried family who were separated from the kids, I would happily move my seat with a smile.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

85. I was on a flight with one of these flakes, the guy wouldn't leave the bathroom

As soon as the flight took off he went and sat in the bathroom and refused to leave if he had to sit next to a woman. Fortunately it was an MD-80 with two seats on one side so it wasn't too hard to come up with a cootie free section for this asshole. The guy was heckled and laughed at as he made his way from the bathroom to the new cootie-free section.

[pnwmom]

90. Wow. They should have arrested him for refusing to follow the directions of the attendants. n/t

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

91. He was pretty young and his english was pretty bad

I think they probably felt more sorry for him than anything else.

[leftynyc]

105. They should have arrested him

the second they landed.

[whatthehey]

87. Not (just) sexist men. Religious sexist men every single time.

[HeiressofBickworth]

92. I've never had this happen

but, just to be prepared, I've worked out my response to being asked to move. I would politely but clearly place the "problem" on the man: &quot Smiling sweetly) I'm sorry you're dissatisfied with your assigned seat; perhaps you will be happier with a seat in another section." Followed by pulling a book out of my bag and reading it.

[treestar]

96. it's the 21st century

grow the fuck up. Egads, even right wing fundies don't do this.

[roody]

103. I'll move if it is to first class also. Otherwise NO.

[bvf]

138. I would refuse to move in any case

just to make a point. Otherwise I'm just taking a bribe to look the other way in the face of ignorance and intolerance.

[Sparhawk60]

110. The Man Should Be Given Three Options

The man should be told he can 1) take his assigned seat, 2) find a different "cooties free" seat, or 3) get off the airplane.

Of course, offering the women a upgrade to First Class (as mentioned above) works for me as well.

[logosoco]

116. I don't understand people who conform to religion in any sense, and I try to

see some humor in this. This person (and others) is saying they can't sit next to another animal, just like them, and one that his species needs to survive because it is "against" his "religion", but he has no problem accepting the idea of flying through the air in a machine that wasn't even dreamed of when his "holy books" were written!
Maybe I just have an odd sense of humor!
Since airlines don't have smoking sections anymore, perhaps they should open up a "sexist" section. With an emergency door that can only be opened by a female.

[dembotoz]

144. make the airline jump high like free flight vouchers etc

preferably make the asshole pay

500 bucks to move?????

cash

[appleannie1]

153. I would move to free first class but other than that, I paid for that seat and I am sitting in it.