Will you people stop whining about the TPP already?

[MannyGoldstein]

Last time I checked, it was secret, so you can't possibly know what's in it.

Besides, it's still being negotiated. They're saving the best parts for last.

And if it's not perfect, we can improve it later.

Why don't you people wait until it's passed and you've seen what we've actually done to you before complaining?

Regards,

TWM

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. My DEAR Manny!

Knock it off already!

We will not stop discussing the TPP.

We are not whining.

So. There.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

2. No. nt

[Dragonfli]

3. No No No, not because of the TTP either! I just like whining!!!! So shut up

And quit whining!

[Art_from_Ark]

5. And eat your peas!

Everyone has to eat their peas!

[Dragonfli]

7. I thought you said there would be cake!

Whatever, just give me something, I'm out of bread, and also out of bread to buy bread (or peas).

[Oilwellian]

34. No, it's pudding, but...

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

[raven mad]

47. I like peas.

Give peas a chance.

[stillwaiting]

25. Shouldn't you change your username to DragonPONY? Always wanting your pony, you...

I really do think it would suit you better...



Of course, I'm stillwaitingforapony.

[Dragonfli]

39. Please, don't bring up my dragonPONY, there was an accident you see...

... Lets just say it wasn't pretty, and turned out rather poorly for both my pony and the poor dragonfly.

[Populist_Prole]

4. You're a treasure Manny

Second only to 'Tom Tomorrow' in astuteness.

[RobertEarl]

6. Old news

Years ago we discussed how the PTB is trying to equalize world pay.

To do so they can raise the pay of everyone else, or lower the pay in the first world.

It's a quandary for them and one day they may just decide on how they can pay first world labor less. A problem they have is: In the first world are the main consumptive players with cash. They can't sell big fancy cars to people in India, Indians can't afford such luxuries.

[ND-Dem]

11. they've already decided. and people in the first world aren't going to be owning

cars as much, either.

the goal of the ptb is that ordinary people won't own much of anything; it will all be conditional and temporary, like software, and you'll have to pay fees to renew your possession of the good, but you'll never own it. just have temporary use of it.

[cui bono]

13. Yep.

It's happening with movies and TV. People keep buying things that are stored on some company's server. What happens when that company doesn't exist anymore?

[GoneFishin]

51. Another goal is to lower our expectation for decent living conditions to the point where

what use to be almost free, or a perk that came with living in a decent society will be treated as a premium for which they can charge money. Just a few examples : privatized public schools, privatized bridges and highways, for profit hospitals, state colleges, bottled water, cable TV.

[ND-Dem]

54. for sure. that's well on its way.

[bearssoapbox]

8. Without the whine

the cheese doesn't taste right.

[Omaha Steve]

9. Too early for me

[hughee99]

10. Besides it's gonna happen whether you like it or not. Nt

[joshcryer]

12. It's not secret.

And the final vote will certainly not be secret.

But will the left put in as much effort against it as the middle did with regards to net neutrality?

We shall see!

Hint: Nope. Not a fucking chance in hell.

[Fumesucker]

18. The middle didn't and doesn't even know what net neutrality is

Of course neither does most of the right or the left but the middle is largely clueless about almost everything, that's why they are the middle in the first place.

I know a lot of people who consider themselves "centrists" or the middle and for the most part they aren't paying attention, that's why they think being halfway between Republicans and Democrats is the best place. They think if the two parties would just settle their differences and come together in compromise everything would be fine.

[joshcryer]

19. The millions of comments to the FCC...

...over net neutrality, were not the left. They were the middle.

Proof will be how much the "left" decides to fight against the TPP when it comes to a vote. Watch and see. The "left" won't muster a tenth of the effort.

[Fumesucker]

20. How do you know this?

By definition the middle think halfway between Republicans and Democrats is the sweet spot of public policy.

The middle is the part of the population that reads David Brooks and thinks he makes great points.

[joshcryer]

21. Treaties are public?

Let's see how it goes. The final vote will be public.

[Fumesucker]

22. I didn't realize net neutrality is a treaty or part of a treaty..

[joshcryer]

26. Net neutrality depended on millions of people commenting.

I fucking guarantee you there will not be 1/10th the people making their voices heard on Obama's TPP.

[cali]

30. their will only be an up or down final vote

and only if fast track passes. That is not a sure thing.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

53. I'd like to know how you know that too.

How exactly do you know what percentages of those millions of comments were from the 'left', the 'middle', or even the 'right'?

Was there some sort of exit polling? Were you required to 'choose a line' like on Washington Journal call ins?

[joshcryer]

55. 83% of conservatives supported it.

http://time.com/3578255/conservatives-net-neutrality-poll/

It was a bipartisan issue.

(Yes, the people arguing against it did so from a conservative view but many were paid astroturfers.)

Anyway, like I said, we'll see if the left acts on TPP.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

56. That's nice, but it tells us nothing about who actually submitted the millions of comments.

Your claim was, specifically, that they came from 'the middle', but you still haven't shown anything to support that notion.

I'm not in the least surprised that it was a 'bipartisan' effort - the web has long been a stomping ground of libertarian types; they're pretty common in IT.

[joshcryer]

57. What more do you want?

Can you prove that the 83% of conservatives weren't involved in the millions of comments?

You might try to argue that "libertarian types" were instrumental, but it seems rather silly to say that if 83% of conservatives were for it, that they didn't provide substantial input.

It was a bipartisan effort. It wasn't liberal only, it wasn't conservative only, it wasn't libertarian only, everyone from every side was for it. Yes, maybe sites like Reddit who represents more Libertarian people did have a larger effect (Obama specifically thanked Reddit for their efforts as Redditors got it to go viral), that's fine. I still do not think it was some sort of one sided thing.

The reality is that net neutrality crossed ideological lines, unlike TPP, which will be a largely liberal effort, and liberals are unlikely to stop it from happening. We'll see, as I said, quite readily, if liberals put in a tenth of the effort.

TPP can be stopped. But it requires a massive viral campaign with millions of people interacting with the government. That is highly unlikely to happen.

Note: to credit "libertarian types" is a misnomer, people wanted the net to be "free" but the FCC's decision was government regulation, which libertarians are against. Many people, including some DUers, argued against it because it allowed the FCC to "censor the internet." This of course is not true, since the internet was a utility until Bush changed it in 2005. But it must be said that some were against it from the left.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

58. What more do I want?

For you to simply admit you have no idea how many of those millions of comments came from the far right, the right, 'the middle', the left, or the far left, unless you have specific numbers that actually show it.

Otherwise you're simply making up stuff in an effort to paint 'the middle' as activists, and leftists as slackers, simply because you're in 'the middle' and dislike 'the left'.

I agree that the comments came from all parts of the political spectrum, but that was NOT your original claim.

joshcryer (50,563 posts)
19. The millions of comments to the FCC...

...over net neutrality, were not the left. They were the middle.

[joshcryer]

59. As I said, the proof will be TPP.

The onus is on the left to prevent the TPP from passing. If they cannot muster the same outcry as net neutrality did, then it will show that the left does not have as much power as the ... middle.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

60. Again, that wasn't 'the middle'. It was the entire freaking spectrum.

So to claim 'the left' doesn't have as much power as 'everybody' is both self-obvious and a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Whether or not the 'left' can stop TPP, it does not have as much power as everyone combined.

[joshcryer]

61. "the entire freaking spectrum" = middle

If you're including everyone then the middle decides. The left and right cancel each other out.

TPP is supported by the right and opposed by the left. That's the point of even mentioning net neutrality.

[morningfog]

23. How do you know the comments on net neutrality were from the "middle?"

Were the comments signed, "The Middle?" What does "the middle" even mean.

Regardless, your theoretical "middle" were spurned to action by organize efforts by those, at least in large part, on the left.

The issue active groups of the left help to frame the issues and move people to action. How are you able to separate out which comments were purely a product of "the middle" with no influence or overlap form the left?

Could you give me a break down of your numbers and process?

[joshcryer]

24. Because pre-Bush utility status was gained.

Not some fantastical nationalization of the service.

[morningfog]

28. And from that result you can divine that the commenters were

were some theoretical "middle" acting independent of the left?

[Cosmic Kitten]

32. Looks like someone was forcing...

a reality to comport with
a preconceived narrative?

[JoePhilly]

41. Its so secret, this was all I could find about it on the administration's web site.

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/tpp-issue-issue-negotiating-objectives

See ... its very hush hush.

[bvar22]

45. Can you provide any documentation for your claim that "the middle"...

...is responsible for net neutrality?

...or worked harder than "the left" for net neutrality?
Thanks.


"In politics the middle way is none at all."
-President John Adams

[blkmusclmachine]

14. You ought to start out your letter as follows:

"Dear worthless teat suckers,"

[hollysmom]

15. Dear Manny - you are not the boss of me - cut it out.

[Vattel]

16. And on another topic:

Why don't you people wait until she's won the primary and you've seen what we've actually done to you before complaining?

[pampango]

17. What if Obama is out to get us, Manny? Anything good he has done for 6 years could just be a setup

for the ultimate screwing - the TPP. Him and his damn international negotiations. Who negotiates them in secret? His diplomatic negotiations with Cuba were out in the open. I just was not paying attention and missed them. Same with his environmental negotiations with China and India. I have to start paying more attention to this international stuff.

Why doesn't he just use some of that 'cowboy diplomacy' his predecessor was so good at and just act unilaterally? Raise tariffs. Lower tariffs. Raise environmental standards. Lower environmental standards. Raise labor standards. Lower labor standards. We are exceptional, damn it! Decide what is in our best interest and tell the world that is how it is going to be. We are tired of negotiations that consider the everyone's point of view. They may not like us acting unilaterally but we are bigger (well, maybe not bigger but more exceptional) and stronger (spending so much on our military has to have SOME advantages, right?) than they are. What are they going to do about it?

Why don't you people wait until it's passed and you've seen what we've actually done to you before complaining?

Exactly. I tell republicans the same thing about our negotiations with Iran and they just don't see the wisdom of that advice. They want congress involved in those negotiations, too. And they are not big fans, to say the least, of the environmental agreements with China and India or the diplomatic one with Cuba. Some people, you know! They just don't want to listen!

[djean111]

29. I will trust in the outrage of Warren and Grayson about the TPP.

In any event, looks like this is the one thing that the GOP will be radiantly happy to work with Obama on, according to McConnell, so I am trying to figure out why you are all over the place defending it. Looks like Obama and the GOP can make this happen no matter what anyone else thinks.

Personally, the votes and shills for this thing will determine who I vote for and who I support. It is a deal-breaker. Like Fast Track will do for the TPP - non-fucking-negotiable.

[pampango]

40. I am not defending either the TPP or the Iranian negotiations. I don't know what's in them. I do

defend the process of negotiation rather than unilateral action on the part of the US or any other country. Many republicans are afraid of negotiating with Iran. Many DU'ers are afraid of negotiating the TPP. I am not afraid of either.

I will take a position on both the TPP and the Iranian agreement when the negotiations are completed, if either ever is, and we know what is in them. I suppose you could say, "But by then it will be too late to stop the TPP." Perhaps, but that is what republicans are saying about the Iranian negotiations which is why they are trying to short-circuit than now rather than waiting.

The Congressional Progressive Caucus takes the position that "it is possible to negotiate a trade agreement that doesn’t replicate the mistakes of the past." That is what Obama contends this is. It may not be that but how else are we going to get to this goal without negotiating with other countries?

[djean111]

42. I am not conflating the TPP with the Iranian negotiations. You are.

What the GOP says about the Iranian negotiations is not even remotely connected with the TPP.

I suppose you could say, "But by then it will be too late to stop the TPP." Perhaps, but that is what republicans are saying about the Iranian negotiations which is why they are trying to short-circuit than now rather than waiting.

Two different issues. Oh, and yeah, Fast Track means too late to stop/change the TPP. That is what it is for.
What the GOP and Netanyahu say about the Iranian negotiations has absolutely nothing to do with the TPP.
The GOP seems to love the TPP and hate the Iranian negotiations. Apples and oranges.

Obama contended that Chained CPI would "fix" Social Security. Do I trust Obama implicitly? Oh hell no. That is my right as a citizen.Nor do I trust any president who would appoint Pete Peterson as head of a committee to look into things like that.

[pampango]

43. The GOP is worried about secrecy in the Iranian negotiations. You are concerned with the secrecy in

TPP negotiations. Of course, the negotiations are not directly related to each other.

They are with different countries and concern different topics but your concerns and those of the GOP are quite similar and neither of you trust Obama to negotiate a decent agreement. Plus the GOP worries because any Iranian agreement will not even go to congress for approval or, more likely, rejection. There won't be 'fast track'. There will be 'no track'.

Do I trust Obama implicitly? Oh hell no.

Krugman:

A peculiar aspect of the Obama years has been the disconnect between the rage of Obama’s enemies and the yawns of his sort-of allies. The right denounces financial reform as a vast government takeover — and lobbies fiercely against it — while the left dismisses reform as symbols without substance. The right accuses Obama of being a socialist stealing the money of hard-working billionaires, while the left dismisses him as having done nothing to address inequality.

On all these issues, the truth is that Obama has done far more than he gets credit for — not everything you’d want, to be sure, or even most of what should be done, but enough so that the right has reason to be furious.

According to CBO, the effective tax rate on the one percent — reflecting the end of the Bush tax cuts at the top end, plus additional taxes associated with Obamacare — is now back to pre-Reagan levels. You could argue that we should have raised taxes at the top much more, to lean against the widening of market inequality, and I would agree. But it’s still a much bigger change than I think anyone on the left seems to realize.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/13/why-the-one-percent-hates-obama/?_r=0

[djean111]

44. I am concerned about the TPP. There is nothing else you can expound upon that will alleviate that

concern. In addition, someone who is so comfy with the banks that he can call upon Jamie Dimon to whip votes from Democrats is not someone who may always have the interests of the 99% first and foremost. Unless he believes in trickle-down, of course.

The TPP will affect the economic life of pretty much everybody in the US. I believe adversely. For a long long time. Not something I conflate with a nuclear treaty at all. Apples and oranges. Not relevant.

[bvar22]

46. #1- I don't care what the Republicans say.

#2) The Great "Financial Reforms" (Dodd-Frank)
turned out to be Business as Usual with very little inconvenience to Wall Street.

[pampango]

48. You are welcome to your indifference. I do care what they say because they do a lot of damage

with their words - which support their actions which cause even more damage. It all, of course, goes towards demonstrating how reactionary they are but it is often a painful demonstration.

[MannyGoldstein]

33. Elizabeth Warren: "Even the Bush Administration put out the scrubbed version during negotiations"

"Even the Bush Administration put out the scrubbed version during negotiations around the Free Trade Area of the Americas agreement."

Hmm...

And why is it, do you think, that Obama's not asking Congress for fast-track status for any Iranian deal?

[pampango]

38. Damn! Even Bush was better than Obama. Now you're talking.

And why is it, do you think, that Obama's not asking Congress for fast-track status for any Iranian deal?

Good point. He is not even planning to submit the Iranian agreement, if there is one, to congress. Don't need 'fast track' if you don't involve congress. He is the dictator that the Tea Party accuses him of being.

[joshcryer]

50. Remember, Bush got us out of Iraq!

[Capt. Obvious]

27. Hmm

Your stalker hasn't found this thread yet.

[Bobbie Jo]

31. But...

Apparently the busybodies had no trouble.

Thank goodness.

[marym625]

35. This! This is why you are THE TWM!

It's inspiring! It's the ONLY way to be! Trust that our privacy is not as important as what the NSA/Government/Corpocracy want! Trust that reversing Dodd Frank is better than standing up for the little guy! (After all, it wasn't that hard to pass - why worry about keeping it in place? ) And trust that the TPP is going to be the best trade agreement yet! After all, corporations writing, pushing and have access to it only have our best interest at heart.

You make me swoon, Three Way Manny!

[Autumn]

36. Please Sir. May I have some more

cake? I don't care for peas you see.

[City Lights]

37. Thanks, Manny!

I feel so much better now.

[hifiguy]

49. I repeat:

You are on a roll, Manny!

[WillTwain]

52. I heard the Hillary crowd say

The new TPP trade agreement will lower the cost of rainbows, lollipops and unicorns.

[marym625]

62. Can we whine NOW?

Thank you wikileaks!