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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums“My first impulse is to call you a dumb Obama ass-licking c**t”: “American Sniper” fans tell me off
I dared criticize "American Sniper." You'd be horrified by the response from aggressive, deluded "patriots"
Sophia A. McClennen
We knew early on that critiquing the film was risky business since it would be followed with immediate and intense attacks. This was evident when Seth Rogen and Michael Moore experienced severe public backlash in response to less-than-favorable tweets about the movie. In a return of the with us or against us logic that framed the Bush administrations response to 9/11, the film suddenly stood in for patriotism in general. If you critiqued the film, you hated the country, the military and your own freedom. And those that you had offended were going to make you pay for it.
It was just this sort of narrow thinking that I had in mind when I wrote a piece critical of the film for Salon. I suggested that the film suffered from two key flawsdelusion and aggressionand that both of those flaws had been present in public appearances by American Sniper director Clint Eastwood. Most important, I connected them to a hostile tendency common to a highly vocal sector of the GOP.
Little did I know that whatever my piece may have lacked in its assessment of the film, it would be the films defenders that would perfectly prove my point. Within minutes of the piece going live, my email inbox and Twitter feed began to light up with negative comments. Many of those early ones I deleted, but I soon realized that keeping them and analyzing them would be a useful exercise in understanding the hate speech that is threatening the health of our democracy. (You can access our full data analysis of the messages here.)
more: http://www.salon.com/2015/02/20/my_first_impulse_is_to_call_you_a_dumb_obama_ass_licking_ct_american_sniper_fans_tell_me_off/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And if you think otherwise, you're an ass-licking ****!
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)The truth is the whole movie is a big wet kiss for Bush and Cheney and for war.
Founded on historical lies that were themselves lies. Supported by the same low information folks that sucked up all the lies before are sucking it all up again.
But this time the social media has the back of truth. Frustrating to propagandists and
Islamaphobes like Eastwood and Fox. Truly.
SmittynMo
(3,544 posts)that talks to empty chairs and loves the GOP.
I have not seen the film. A GOP friend and his GOP wife loved it. Makes sense based on your opinion, why they would.
Between your comments and them loving it, I will NEVER go to see it.
My loss, I guess
KansDem
(28,498 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Meaning those that support the movie passionately and those that are against it passionately.
It's a movie.
If you like it, fine--but this response in the OP is unnecessary.
If you didn't like it or don't want to see it--fine.
But I don't understand the heated response from both sides.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)response on both sides is pretty ridiculous.
People have forgotten that it's just a movie. The screaming on both sides has generated a ton of publicity for it.
sinkingfeeling
(51,460 posts)war movies. See this article from Truthout:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016114915
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Disney and Nicholas Sparks tripe then. No more war movies or any controversial films again.
I don't like war, and was disgusted at being led into a war based on bullshit. However, that doesn't mean I would never see another war movie again.
I think it is possible to go see a war movie and be repulsed at the thought of another war that people write to their representatives against it. If they still vote for it, that's another thing entirely. There will always be people that are for war - movie or not.
sinkingfeeling
(51,460 posts)simply another movie meant to keep Americans salivating for more war.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Will the people that are against war suddenly change their minds because of this? Do you think all Americans are that weak minded?
I haven't seen it yet. I seriously doubt that after I see it I will be salivating for more war.
sinkingfeeling
(51,460 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)to Cimino's The Deer Hunter and De Palma's Casualties of War) all subvert the 'war porn' tradition of American film in various ways. All 4 films are set in our first imperial defeat, Vietnam. I predict, in another 20 years, we will have an analogous oeuvre for the Iraq and Afghan debacles.
Most Americans have yet to come to terms with the fact that we were defeated.
Marr
(20,317 posts)It's also so recent that people are largely unwilling to acknowledge the utterly corrupt (and outright stupid) reasons we were there. Doing so would would make them feel like fools, and dissolve a few our most comforting lies.
It's one thing to look back after 20 years or more and say, 'wow, those people sure were gullible'. It's another to say, 'wow, I sure am gullible'.
freebrew
(1,917 posts)It's Hollywood inspired, government(the secret one) backed propaganda.
Heroes and Villains type stuff that gets the war mongers all fired-up to hate the poor bastards we torched, looted and destroyed for the egos and profits(not necessarily in that order) of the BFEE.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)about war with or without any movie. There are people that were gung ho about Iraq before this movie came out. People are either for or against war, I don't think either camp will change their minds about their positions.
fasttense
(17,301 posts)You suggest that people are for war or against war and they don't change their minds. You can NOT be further from the truth with that implication.
First, I was honestly for the Iraq war when Colin Powell came out and gave his speech to the UN. I believed him. As a retired Navy Commander, I trusted his opinion and honesty. Later I found out he had lied, or had done such a bad job of looking into the facts, he might as well have lied. I changed my mind based on evidence and facts. People do it all the time.
This movie will change someone's mind. People are NOT just persuaded with facts and evidence. People are very easily manipulated into FEELING, especially in film and movies. Many people are easily persuaded once they are FEELING a certain way. That is what salesmanship, advertising and propaganda is all about. Making people FEEL a certain way towards a certain thing then getting them to behave a certain way towards that thing.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Back then the news wasn't watered down to make it 'safe' for people. They showed coffins. They showed the horror. I personally know veterans of that war. I guess you are probably right about feelings. I couldn't be more against war. Particularly when it is based on lies (Iraq).
Maybe the realities of war shouldn't be watered down in the media.
People need to see pictures like this.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026252797
fasttense
(17,301 posts)But today's media does NOT provide us with a dose of reality to compare to the fantasies of movies anymore. You have to go out and hunt down the truth with intellect and reason. But that's a lot of work and many people would rather just believe the fantasies of war that Hollywood throws out.
My daughter got to read the script before the movie was made and was really impressed with the writing. But the wrong director can really mangle a script. I'm not sure if that is what happened, but instead of rabid hatred, it would have been more useful if people could talk about the Iraq war and not just yell at each other.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Information and pictures used to be readily available via the 5pm news. I remember that Look and Life magazines had good articles. I was pretty young then, but they always had excellent photos.
There are a few posters in this thread that have seen the movie, and have said that it is far more nuanced than people make it out to be. I think the problem is, is that people will just take for granted that whatever they hear is true. Rather than seeing it for themselves and then deciding.
Talking about the actual war would be more helpful.
d_r
(6,907 posts)I don't support the idea of war generally but i think that sometimes there are bad situations where you have to do what you have to do as a last resort. He was the one I trusted enough to think it must be one of those.
Cognitive dissonance is a big thing.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)That idea is totally false, that things are just one thing and one thing only.
And by that logic Birth of a Nation was just a move...and Fox is just a TV show.
By this disassemble of things to a single thing you can dismiss all the rest...as if there is always one reason for all things.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)The black hats are bad guys, and anyone against them are the white hat good guys - it gets way too complicated for some when they actually get all facts straight and realize they are being lied to.
Then it is a choice on doubling down on the false opinion or admitting you were wrong.
Guess what most choose, much like when Foxites are caught out in their falsehoods.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)olegramps
(8,200 posts)mountain grammy
(26,626 posts)cynzke
(1,254 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 20, 2015, 11:31 AM - Edit history (1)
This is about the nature of response the professor received from SOME regarding her critique of a movie. This is pointing out that a segment of people in our society today, are incapable of reading comprehension, critical thinking and unable of making a rational response if they disagree about something. Some of these people are dangerous. They don't even understand that their way of thinking undermines the patriotism they claim to defend. Doesn't matter if it about a movie, book, news article, blog etc. The professor is pointing out a problem in our society.....civil discourse, the inability to respect a difference of opinion and the willingness of some to suspend the rights of free speech to others. There is no doubt that some of these people would gladly express their opposition physically if they could get away with it. Future goon squad members of America. They hate anyone/thing that is different socially, intellectually or culturally.
erronis
(15,303 posts)I wonder if there is really a functioning nation that isn't run by conservative/right-wing powered elites such as USA or the New USSR. Where being a liberal is considered unpatriotic. Where caring for the populace as a whole is frowned upon.
Oh, wait - most of Europe - you know that Old Place (that happens to excel in most areas over the USA.)
BlueMTexpat
(15,370 posts)"Future goon squad members of America" indeed!
Unfortunately, too many are also in the present.
secondwind
(16,903 posts)nichomachus
(12,754 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)It reveals the polarization of our citizens into the Left and Right Wings. The Left thinks that our country has gone way overboard in killings in the middle east. Most of our tax money goes to the MIC and for killing brown people. The Left thinks that the police have been militarized and that they are targeting people of color. The Right glorifies the killing of those that they are told are the enemy including Muslims and people of color like Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown whom they consider as thugs.
This polarization is very important to the Oligarch Rulers. They are safe from revolution while the Middle and Lower Classes are fighting among themselves.
And the New Democrats (Conservatives) have their eyes closed and want to hold on to the status quo as long as they can.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I usually don't go to movies.
I don't think it was totally pro-sniper. The guy called the Iraqis "savages" so he could feel OK about killing them. Yet they showed his opposite number, and Iraqi sniper, with his wife and kids. You definitely got the feel that they felt the same way about the invaders. It was their country, and what would you do if that happened to you there? It raised that idea anyway.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)What really elevated Chris Kyle, imho, to mythical status was the tragic and senseless way he died.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)And the fellow has no mystical status I am aware of other than at Fox and the rest of the media that cheerleader America into a war based on lies.
treestar
(82,383 posts)random. Though taking disturbed people to a gun shooting range is a bad idea. But he probably still didn't think a thing like that would happen. Another guy died too, though the movie didn't get into that.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)but I have liked (and respected) many of his movies; not all, but many.
Your assessment reminds me of his movie "Letters from Iwo Jima", which is told from the Japanese point of view. If I remember correctly, he got some flak from some veterans groups for that. "Flags of Our Fathers", the companion to this movie, was far from a rah-rah USA! film and focused instead on the complexities and challenges the men who raised the American flag in Iwo Jima encountered afterward.
At his best, I think Eastwood can capture a level nuance and humanity in some of his films that escapes and annoys ideologues of all stripes.
Eastwood does seem to have become something of an ideologue himself (maybe), so I wouldn't be surprised if "American Sniper" is gung-ho; but I have heard other comments like yours that makes me think maybe there are more ambiguities in the film than its critics and fans are seeing.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)I especially liked that in "Flags of Our Fathers" they depicted the fake Iwo Jima photo op as well as the horrible treatment of Ira Hayes. I mean, I had no idea that the famous photo was actually the second one taken, with a different flag and different people than the ones who originally did the flag-raising.
And Ira Hayes (and the others, but especially him) was exploited and then tossed away.
I have not seen American Sniper. I do not like Chris Kyle because he was a gigantic liar and the movie is based on his book, which is full of lies. Not sure Eastwood could have done anything with that.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)I'm not eager to see "American Sniper," personally. However, I have watched scenes where advocates of the movie try to point out that Eastwood is infusing it with more of a critique of the personal toll it had on Kyle than its fans are squawking about.
I don't know. I'd have to see the movie in its entirety before I can determine what I think of it, and, as I say, I'm not really looking for any opportunity to see it soon.
Skittles
(153,169 posts)did the movie make it glaringly obvious America invaded Iraq FOR NO REASON, that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, that it was all a big lie? If not, why not? And does the movie explain why this sniper would go back over and over, knowing it was all a lie?
treestar
(82,383 posts)and he appeared to believe that he was fighting the "savages" who did 911. Maybe he bought Bush's crap. they showed him watching TV coverage of 911 (his girlfriend called him out of the shower when she saw it on TV). That and the embassy bombings was enough to convince him to go over there and kill the "savages" and thereby save his country from them.
Since it was about him, it didn't cover the attitudes of others.
As seems to happen to combat soldiers, he got madder at the opposition because of his buddies that they killed. I bet this camaraderie contributes a lot to willingness to go to war. I have an old family story of this as they found one of my great great great uncles was in WWI and came home but went back when he heard some of his buddies had been killed. He wanted revenge for them alone. Then he himself got killed when he went over on that mission.
ck4829
(35,077 posts)They think they are brave.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)ck4829
(35,077 posts)You don't need to use moral equivalence.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)ck4829
(35,077 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Most films have their fans and those that did not like the film. Heck even 50 Shades of Grey and Selma gets its fair share of various opinions. It's really no big deal.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)speaks to an empty chair.
The movie is Hate Film.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)It was a movie that I saw once but will not have it in my movie collection. I am glad I saw it so I can make my own decision on the movie. Most who really hate it didn't even see the movie.
frylock
(34,825 posts)I saw all I needed to see about 'American Sniper' when every single damn commercial break during the NFL playoffs was pimping this shitshow. In fact, I knew everything I needed to know about the sainted Chris Kyle years before Eastwood even conceived the film.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)movie hates it and complains about it most. Commercials are not enough to give an accurate assessment.
frylock
(34,825 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Have a great weekend!
ck4829
(35,077 posts)The vitriol is rather extreme, much more from one way than the other.
I realize it's just a movie, but there are some people who are almost treating it like the Bible 2.0.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Not that much of that is being played out in American propaganda media lately, granted.
This sorry excuse of a film should come with a disclaimer:
"Not based on true historical events and only fictional". "Long live Bush and Cheney"
How does a 12 year old even pick up a loaded RPG anyway? Been working out a lot I guess...those
Muslim boys sure are strong....
katmondoo
(6,457 posts)Without knowing anything about it I see it as propaganda
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)The movie was primarily made to assuage the collective guilt of America of killing millions based on lies, and leaving afar worse situation behind for Obama to clean up....
The movie is like Oxycontyn for the war guilty...and it is as addictive because folks are made to feel better....for a while.
tridim
(45,358 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)The same ones who are crying out for a Holy War even now.
I wept for Baghdad, I wept for truth, I wept for the sad folks truly believing it was not all a lie.
I wept for The Dixie Chicks.
I weep now for those not seeing the film as a coverup for the Iraq war Big Lie. Not seeing who produced it, once again ignorant of history.
"There is no doubt Iraq has WMD's"
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)truebrit71
(20,805 posts)N/t
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)"Moderate" Democrats moved the Party Right to marginalize Republicans. Republicans moved further to the Right. This has been going on continuously since 1993.
Congratulations is due to the DLC, Third Way, New Democrats, etc. By giving the Republicans nowhere to go but appealing to hate and anger, angry and hateful Americans now have a voice in the public arena. These people, once pariahs, are now mainstream. Their hatred is viewed as a legitimate source of political debate.
And what has been the result of 22 years of marginalizing the Right by co-opting their policies?
Republicans now control only the majority of state legislatures.
Republicans now control only the majority of governorships.
Republicans now control only both houses of congress.
There are always angry, hateful people happy to do the most heinous things to those with whom they disagree. For my part, I think it was a mistake giving them a voice.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)We are truly living, to cite the Chinese curse/proverb, in interesting times.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)The only one I ever liked was Destination Tokyo, and I didn't see it till we got a TV in 1952.
Bad things happen in war. The best movies show the bad things, so in my case, the better the movie, the less I'll like it. I'm not able to watch this type of film because I cry too much. Eastwood's empty chair that he talked to was my seat.
Initech
(100,081 posts)Movies like Zero Dark Thirty, Hurt Locker, and American Sniper all glorify George W Bush's never ending war for profit. It's a situation that we never should have been in the first place, we should have been going after Pakistan (where bin Laden was this whole time) and Saudi Arabia (who financed the 9/11 hijackers) instead. Movies like these are just reminders of a sad reality in this country. Had we elected Al Gore instead, we probably wouldn't be in this war in the first place.
Response to tenderfoot (Original post)
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OldRedneck
(1,397 posts)And whatta you bet that 99.44% of those attacking you never served a minute in uniform.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)GOP handed him the tools for a disaster and created instant karma.
Could have been much worse for society if say, they let him play with armed drones in America.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)this film is simply one more token that certifies the "liberal media" predominance. no?
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Sniper was his job.
Nobody refers to me as an American avionics tech. My job was to make sure our planes hit what they were aiming at.
American sniper glorifies killing but my aircraft did more of that than Kyle.
I just don't like this whole thing.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I was talking to a woman and her sig other behind me in a shopping line yesterday. We were talking of how meanness seems to be taking over this culture. Them being an IR couple she jumped in right away. A new clerk was at the register and was having a tough day. Someone in line behind us was mumbling, I heard "dumb fuck b.... and turned at looked at that asshole. He tried to give me the stare, but he dropped is head. It was obvious the clerk was new. But anyway I just commented how mean and self centered people seemed these day. Her eyes lit up and she went to town, her sig other nodded and the guy mumbling, left the line. We grinned at each other and silently applauded our victory over mean. We talked about trying to keep love in our hearts, understanding situations and going with them without petty selfishness and ended up talking of our pets, mine her surgery and her of a parrot that won't stop talking.
Quite enjoyable and gratifying to find people are fighting meanness. Made the wait, not so long. And yes I did give the clerk encouragement when she started apologizing for the wait........ We all have started a new job, hang in there. She, in this day an age, I hope, will be allowed by that store to muddle through until she gets comfortable.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)with kids I'd probably chase you! j/k
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I'd enjoy being in love again.......
father founding
(619 posts)To fit the neocan'ts for battle fatigues.If they wan't a war , launch the chicken hawk brigade.
charles d
(99 posts)KansDem
(28,498 posts)At first I thought it was satire...
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)I've heard widely varying opinions from a number of people whose judgment is usually worth considering. My takeaway is that the movie seems to be some sort of projective test. Some come away saying it was about the tragedy of war & PTSD, while others claim it glorifies war. I suspect that when a movie generates this range of responses in the viewers, it may be doing a fair job of presenting some of the complexity of the real world.
Prism
(5,815 posts)My takeaway is that Kyle was kind of justifying what he was doing by repeating various patriotic mantras to himself, but that he was haunted by what he ultimately had to do. By the end of the film, we were seeing a man who had something broken on the inside, but who still clung to the simplistic patriotism that led him to do what he did as a kind of psychological life raft.
It was not in any way a veneration of war. Even other soldiers in the film are questioning why we were in Iraq and saying, "Eff this place."
I don't get DU's reading of the film at all. I don't think it was a great film. It was well-made, the performances were good, but the script was a bit simple and Hollywood (sniper vs. sniper).
But war porn? Man, I thought it was quite the opposite.
frylock
(34,825 posts)the film adaptation version of Kyle was nothing at all like the real person.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)(just substitute "Putin" for "Obama"
And allowed by a jury, 6-1.
And the alerter called out for making the dumbest, most time-wasting alert ever.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)"He was a star featured by Conan O'Brien and the mega-church talk circuit."
http://www.alternet.org/world/stop-pretending-american-sniper-apolitical-bradley-cooper-it-has-incited-countless-death
Glorification and promotion of war especially in church, where promotion of peace is supposed to be it's agenda. This is why democrats are losing at the poles. This is promotion of generation after generation of endless war. Violence is addicting just like heroin.
I have no respect for Clint Eastwood and those who create propaganda which aggrandize violence.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)The frothing 'patriots' will love it just as much as everyone else, because they won't understand that the sadistic parts aren't comedy.
Response to tenderfoot (Original post)
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Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)aikoaiko
(34,172 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)War movies in general turn me off. I don't think I've seen one since Saving Private Ryan, which really turned my stomach with the battle scenes in the beginning.
That said, I don't try to discourage anyone from going to see this (or any other) movie and deciding for himself/herself whether it's any good. It undoubtedly has inaccuracies and scenes that are nothing more than "artistic license," but that goes for almost any movie.
The feedback, whether positive, negative, or even obscene, is undoubtedly good for this woman's career. Journalists go out of their way to provoke a response, and she obviously did.