Background on Zimmerman

[cbrer]

I will always believe in, and defend the concept of "innocent until proven guilty".

This story provides background, and some perspective on people and circumstances surrounding this tragedy.

http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-prelude-shooting-194235114.html

Much of what I've read here on DU may turn out to be intuitive, and prescient.

[atreides1]

1. Alright

Now, a background story on Trayvon Martin should be coming out soon, right?

[Iggo]

37. He's working on it, I'm sure.

[Blue_Tires]

48. Sadly, Martin wasn't a hardened street thug from a broken home so he doesn't fit the narrative

[tularetom]

2. It's entirely possible that every word in that story is true

It doesn't alter the fact that Zimmerman, acting in defiance of instructions from the police department, followed and shot an unarmed teenager.

He may not be the raving loony racist some have portrayed him as, but he obviously lacked the emotional maturity to handle a firearm.

It appears that he fucked up big time and if the jury agrees, he'll have to pay the price.

[joeybee12]

5. +1

Although I do think he was a racist, influenced by his very racist father.

[patrice]

11. General climates of prolonged struggle and failure lead to what you refer to as his

lack of emotional maturity.

Again, NOT an excuse. He SHOULD be in prison, but there's little hope for any of us ever if we don't just see this whole thing for what it actually is.

[pokerfan]

17. and the Zimmerman defenders will point out that

1) it wasn't necessarily a order
2) the 911 operator wasn't the boss of him
3) following someone is not illegal

and while that may or may not all be true, it would seem to present problems for a self-defense claim.

[Blue_Tires]

49. I've been saying the same thing from the start:

You do NOT have to be a dyed-in-the-wool, lifelong KKK member to racially profile someone...

[helloyall]

130. how was Zimmerman acting in defiance

Of instructions from the police department? Did he call the department its self?


911 dispatch is not the police and have no authority over someone legally.

Just because the 911 dispatch told him not to do something is not the same as the police telling you not to do something.

[Capt. Obvious]

134. LOL!

[helloyall]

135. does 911 have legal authority? yes or no?

[Capt. Obvious]

138. 911: "911, what's your emergency?"

Caller: "Hello? Yeah, my son, I think he's dead. He's not breathing, no pulse."

911: "Okay, I'm going to need you to start CPR until EMS gets there."

Caller: "YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!!"

[helloyall]

144. LEGAL authority.

[cyberswede]

147. Dude...quit digging.

You're not going to win this argument here.

Whether or not 911 dispatch had legal authority to compel GZ NOT to follow TM, GZ *should have* followed their recommendation, if for no other reason than his own safety...just in case the police were on the way, and might mistake *him* for a suspicious person.

He's the one who called 911 - and when their response was for him to butt out, he said "fuck that" and did whatever he wanted to anyway.

If he had followed their recommendation, TM would be alive, and GZ wouldn't be charged with a crime.

[helloyall]

151. dude, chill out I'm out to prove my point

That 911 dispatch has no legal authority to tell tell Zimmerman or anyone for that fact, what to do.

[cyberswede]

153. ...and what difference does that really make, at the end of the day?

Let's say they didn't have legal authority, does that make what GZ did ok?

The bottom line is that he should have heeded their advice.

[cyberswede]

145. *snort*

[Ruby the Liberal]

158. LOL!

[geardaddy]

150. That's a bingo.

[denverbill]

3. Frankly that's about what I expected.

Zimmerman wasn't a murderous racist lunatic.

He was a gun-toting cop-wannabee who provoked a situation which led to Trayvon's killing. If not for Zimmerman following and chasing Trayvon, none of this would have happened.

[patrice]

6. And if it weren't for his justified expectation that the cops would not arrive in time to be

effective, he wouldn't have chased Trayvon.

NOT an excuse for doing the WRONG!!! thing, simply description of what happened.

[ronnie624]

12. Effective against what?

A teenager walking home from the store with Skittles and a can of iced tea?

[patrice]

13. Effective against the REAL problems in the area, so that Z would not have felt it necessary to

call them, let alone go after Trayvon.

There are all kinds of things that change one's perception of others and a sense of futility is a powerful one.

[noiretextatique]

41. maybe he can claim temporary insanity

since he took it upon himself to take the law into his own hands, given there was no immediate threat to him, until he confronted Martin. and even then, there was no threat...except in his twisted mind. he claimed he did not know if Martin was armed, but why in the fuck would he think he was armed in the first place? he did not see Trayvon do anything except walk down the street, and he found that "suspicious." if he had actually seen Trayvon DO something, his suspicion might have been RATIONAL. but since he didn't see him do anything, his suspicions were based on the actions of two other people, who also happened to be black males. i don't see how anyone can claim this was anything other than a racially-motivated murder.

[patrice]

53. I don't like that. Because, to me, he has rather obvious culpability here, just (possibly) not the

culpability that some/many are trying to ascribe to him, for their own reasons.

[noiretextatique]

55. yes, his culpability is pretty obvious

he took it upon himself to be judge, jury and executioner, for no reason other than his "suspicion."

[patrice]

57. It's hard to speculate about the weight of the racial factors.

Even the affect his father, who someone is saying is a racist, COULD have been a contrary effect, depending upon the nature of that relationship.

Z likely would NOT have responded to Trayvon had Trayvon not been Black and/or wearing a hoodie, but his response is not evidence that all of his responses to all Blacks wearing hoodies, or not, would have been of the same nature. Without more support, the Black -ness and the hoodie COULD have been only incidental to Z's impulse to be the hero.

You have to PROVE, not only, that Z **THOUGHT** "All robbers (in this neighborhood) are Black" but ALSO "All Blacks (in this neighborhood) are robbers." There is a good probability that Z agreed with the first of these two propositions. It is not likely that he thought the second and the Defense is going to say that based upon his mixed-heritage background, though there's nothing that says different races, including Blacks, do not discriminate, not only against other races, but, perhaps more on class differences, amongst themselves.

[noiretextatique]

79. not really

unless you want to make it hard. per your post: Z likely would NOT have responded to Trayvon had Trayvon not been Black and/or wearing a hoodie.

[patrice]

101. not not really. We still do not know the weight of Black/hoodie relative to Z's other motives.

One in particular about how perps ALWAYS get away seems important relative to this question.

What was more important in motivating Z's getting out of the car: the "getting away" or "he's Black"/and wearing a hoodie? "Getting away" = 10% of what was driving his behavior? relative to 90% Black/hoodie driving his behavior??? or 90:10?, or 1: 99?, or 83:17?, or 50:50?, or . . . ?

What was more important in motivating Z to draw his gun? Are you going to say you CAN calculate the actual causes of getting out of the car, pursuing Trayvon, struggling, drawing the gun etc. etc. etc. and your calculation = Racism 100% and "Getting away" 0%? Can any of us make that calculation based on behavior that COULD have been motivated by either one? or something else entirely? I'm going to admit that I don't know and not knowing IS important.

Z probably would not have become interested in Trayvon had Trayvon not been Black, but that does not mean that Black -ness/hoodie were his ONLY motive, nor the determining factor between what could have been 2 or more related motives, most of which motivational-sets could morph depending upon what happened.

Again, NOT excuses for ANYONE CARRYING A DEADLY WEAPON, just not as simple as SOME people really seem to inordinately *********W.A.N.T.************ very much for us to think it is. Power positions (e.g. carrying a weapon) bear the majority of the burden of responsibility for what happens, especially extremely imbalanced power positions, like armed vs. un-armed, have by far the huge majority of the responsibility for what happens, but that doesn't mean that we can make whatever claims we want about HOW things went wrong, beyond the obvious DIRE failure in responsibility for the power of that gun.

Especially since there is probably MORE unconscious stuff governing our behaviors than conscious stuff in lots of situations, externalities reducing appearances to a single factor, like Racial Hate, AND THEN DESIRING PUNISHMENT BASED UPON THAT ERROR IS UNJUST - AND - AND - AND - that's exactly what you are accusing George Zimmerman of doing.

[noiretextatique]

105. i am sure he saw himself as some sort of avenger or hero

that might be part of his motivation also. still, i am having a hard time understanding your argument. in fact, i just don't get it.

[patrice]

84. Also, "effective", had they come on the scene BEFORE the murder, in determining that nothing

was going on with Trayvon. Police CAN do that too, you know.

[noiretextatique]

28. in time...for what? Trayvon was walking home from the store

he wasn't doing anything to arouse zimmerman's "suspicions," except walking while black.

[Solomon]

40. You obviously dont get it. Black males are automatically

suspect. Zimmerman's obviously not racist because he thinks like them and they're not racist. See how that works?

[noiretextatique]

44. yes...i get it, hence my thread about blaming the victim

the just world fallacy, and the almost genetic belief that black men are dangerous. and my mistrust of "allies" who i must convince that i don't have a tail.

[patrice]

47. In my reference to how maleable perception is, I was trying to pose a different

context in which futility (which affects perception) is much less of a factor (in this hypothetical instance, because of the higher functionality of the police in dealing with the real crimes instead of un-real "crimes&quot . I'm saying in some such environments, because of less or 0 futility, Z's perception of Trayvon would have likely been very different, or, at worst, he would have tested his own perception BEFORE acting on it so precipitously.

Amongst the different other perceptions of Trayvon that Z could have had, were he not so warped by situational factors such as the futility of the police (AND probably completely unaware of his own warped -ness, btw), are at least a few other perceptions, maybe even several, different perceptions that would NOT have triggered his call to the police (one example, "oh, that's just some kid talking to his girlfriend&quot and, hence, time, and especially police time, would have never been relevant.

[Fumesucker]

9. If Martin was white I doubt Zimmerman would have reacted the same way..

Bigotry at the least and possible racism although that is a somewhat higher bar to clear.

[noiretextatique]

27. it seems we need to state the obvious over and over and over and over and over

paranoid freak with a loaded weapon sees a black kid and decides he is guilty of something and murders him. sometimes things are just what they appear to be.

[patrice]

64. AND sometimes they are NOT what they appear to be - AND - the difference between those 2 states IS

what we call Justice.

If we write Zimmerman off, we can write Trayvon Martin off and anyone else, even you, off too.

If each and every one of us and, therefore, all of us in the collective "we" are not responsible for doing our best to ascertain the differences between appearances and reality, there is no hope for anyone.

[noiretextatique]

73. wtf are you talking about? really.

you seem to be trying very hard to say something, but i am not still not sure what it is.

[patrice]

76. **IF** all racially motivated murders occur between ethnicities, does that NECESSARILY mean that all

murders between ethnicities are racially motivated?

No. Different ethnicities can kill one another for ALL KINDS of "reasons"/causes, of which Race is ONLY one cause.

[noiretextatique]

106. i am not sure why zimmerman killed him

but i am convinced that he profiled him and followed him because he was black. sure there COULD be a zillion other reasons, but that one seems the most logical given his statements to the 911 dispatcher. so even if the murder wasn't racially-motivated, the profiling and following likely were.

[patrice]

108. Agreed.

[patrice]

74. And THAT'S what George Zimmerman did wrong, which act was hideously exacerbated by a gun.

[patrice]

70. **IF** all ___________ are _ _ _ _ _ _ , does that NECESSARILY mean that all _ _ _ _ _ _ are

__________________ . . . ?

e.g. **IF** all robbers in this neighborhood are Black, does that necessarily mean that all Blacks in this neighborhood are robbers?

e.g. **IF** all racists hurt (in one way or another) members of other ethnicities, does that necessarily mean that all harm caused between ethnicities is the result of racism?

[noiretextatique]

72. no and no

but race seems to be the issue in this case.

[LynneSin]

71. Just think if Zimmerman had listened to what 911 dispatcher told him

seriously!

[patrice]

4. Oh god.

[Rex]

7. Yes this article of bullshit is making the rounds

more pathetic attempts to help Zimmerman. The sad thing about it is, even if EVERY SINGLE word is true in the article (which it is not) Zimmerman STILL hunted down and murdered a kid walking home from a gas station.

I don't care how people try and lie for Invader Zimm...he is doing some jailtime...sorry Zimm lovers but he is going to prison. You will just have to deal with it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Actually background matters

No, not because it helps or does not, the accused...who legally is still innocent.

It paints a more complete picture and also tells me SPD is even more incompetent.

If you got a series of break ins, usually it's the same crew that has found an easy place. (Independent of melanin content)

Now as far as the trial is concerned, this becomes relevant after conviction, in the sentencing phase.

[Rex]

18. So does accuracy in reporting.

Yeah just WTF is wrong with the SPD? They couldn't keep a gated community safe? Sound like Keystone Cops.

[Aerows]

117. I don't think anyone

can question that the SPD is incompetent at this point. They don't sound competent enough to investigate candy taken from a baby, much less a major crime.

[noiretextatique]

30. i certainly hope he goes to prison

and i don't give a shit about his background either. fuck him...he killed and unarmed teenager and he deserves a long prison sentence.

[Rex]

68. That is the bottom line...he shot and killed an unarmed teenager

walking home from the gas station. I know people here that want to bullshit that into somehow being the kids fault...sorry folks, it does not work that way.

[helloyall]

133. because you were there..

And you know for a fact that Zimmerman shot Martin because he was walking while black, right?

You know Martin had nothing to do, right?


No. You don't know! You are speculating that Zimmerman killed him, when we have no idea if Martin started something.

[Rex]

140. I am speculating that Zimmerman killed Martin!?!? REALLY???

Enjoy your stay.

[helloyall]

146. what facts do you have to support your statement?

NO ONE really know what exactly happened yet.

[Ruby the Liberal]

149. Er, how about Zimmerman admitted to killing Trayvon

before the body was even cold.

Or is that "speculation" to you, as noted above:

You are speculating that Zimmerman killed him, when we have no idea if Martin started something.

[helloyall]

155. do you have facts that Martin didn't start it?

Do you have facts that Zimmereman killed him in cold blood?


We don't know! For all we know Martin started shit and Zimmerman finished it.


No one on this board has a lot of facts, they are speculating and putting their own bias and opinion into their responses.

[Ruby the Liberal]

157. Like you speculating that Zimmerman may not have killed Trayvon?

[helloyall]

160. that was for argument sake

I know Zimmerman shot Martin. But no one knows if Martin provoked it or now? Zimmerman could have shot him for w.e reason OR Martin could have threatened him and Zimmerman is defeanded himself.


NO ONE KNOWS! But everyone THINKS they know.

[Ruby the Liberal]

161. Then why are you all up in here amping about speculation

in regards to known facts. How about starting with a baseline of "Zimmerman killed the kid and now it goes to trial" and go from there.

You will get a lot more productive discussion out of that.

[ScreamingMeemie]

154. "You are speculating that Zimmerman killed him..." We are?

Who do you think killed Martin?

[Spoonman]

63. Please enlighten all of us.

Tell us O powerful Oz just how you know this to be bullshit.

Feel free to cite credible sources for our reading pleasure.

[Rex]

67. Why would I waste the time with the likes of you?

[Spoonman]

83. "The likes of me"?

Because everyone that has read your and my post is now thinking the same thing.
- Rex doesn't know shit, got called out on it, and is now too embarrassed to attempt a decent reply.

[HangOnKids]

86. No Everyone Is Not Thinking That

I for one read the exchange, and I am thinking you are a boob. Doesn't quite fit your snarky condescending narrative does it?

[Spoonman]

87. I notice you fail as well

Either you are unable to recognize the fallacies of his assertion, or you just decided to turn a blind eye because somehow (beyond any concept of logic) you agree with him.

"you are a boob" - I'm impressed!

Better luck next time.......

[HangOnKids]

90. You Are An Arrogant Boob

Sorry I wasn't explicit the first time.

[Rex]

93. The Fail is strong in this one.

Okay, back to people that matter.

[Rex]

92. So what really happened is someone proved you wrong

and you called a Wambulance...

Typical...the failsauce is strong in this one.

[Rex]

89. You are right, how silly of me.

When someone starts off their post in an offense way, I should be nice and polite. Right?

Like I said, why would I waste time on someone that already made up their mind? You don't care what I have to say you just want to fight and so you are not worthy of any kind of answer.

Besides Oz doesn't talk to small fries...

[HangOnKids]

96. Oz talks only to pretty girls in gingham and their dog Toto

Fries...meh!

[Rex]

98. Small fries! Yes, I said it!

I really would LOVE to know what Mr. X would say about all this.

[Spoonman]

125. "why would I waste time on someone that already made up their mind"

You know, you are correct.
You have already made up your mind, and you can't reason with Lemmings.

So, I'll stop wasting my time with you.

Have a wonderful day.

[Rex]

142. Yes you are a lemming now go bother someone else

with your drivel...no one here is buying it!

[Oilwellian]

104. Here's one pure bullshit entry

George was taking criminal justice classes in the hopes of one day becoming a judge. Pure, deluxe horseshit. That is not the avenue one would take if they aspired to be a judge.

Ironically, George did get to play judge that fateful day, and sadly, Trayvon's executioner as well.

[geardaddy]

156. +1

[rustydog]

8. Background on the case: Innocent teen walking home from store at night

with skittles and iced tea.
Armed self-appointed neighborhood watch CAPTAIN decides this Black teenager with skittles and tea is up to no good. Calls police and reports suspicious Black in a hoodie on drugs or somethin'
When asked if he is following the subject (can hear Zimmie walking and talking) he says Yes and is told not to. He does so anyway, challenges an innocent unarmed teenager who, apparently cannot Stand His Ground when the armed Zimmerman decides Trayvon does not belong in "his" neighborhood, challenges and kills Trayvon.

He is innocent until proven guilty. The facts are the police did not do their job and investigate. the only reason people are still commenting on the Trayvon murder is because of the internet...Zimmie would have gotten away with murder. He may still do so because of how the fucked-up SYG law was written by ALEC.
He is innocent until proven guilty. I can still hold my opinion.

[joeglow3]

26. Is there concrete evidence he continued to follow him?

His claim is that he turned around and was walking back to his car. Clearly, there has to be solid evidence that he did not, which I have not seen (some people have assumed based on what they have heard in the media from his girlfriend on the phone). Like it or not, I am glad that is the way it is, as I would hate to live in a country with a court system that did NOT require the burden of proof before convicting someone.

[noiretextatique]

32. zimmerman: proven liar

"i didn't know how old he was" is the lie he told at his bail hearing. then the supposed injuries that don't appear on the police tape, and the paramedic who said zimmerman wasn't hurt badly and did not require much medical attention. since he is a liar, i find it impossible to believe his version of events.
of course he should have a trial, and hopefully he will be convicted.

[Spoonman]

66. You should contact the prosecutor

You can prove Zimmerman knew how old he was?

[noiretextatique]

75. DUH...it's on the 911 tape, which i am sure the prosecutor has

on the 911 tape, zimmerman said Martin was in his late teens. under oath on the stand, zimmerman said he thought Martin was closer to his age. either he was lying to the 911 operator, or he lied on the stand.

[Spoonman]

78. Or, when on the stand

he could have stated how old he thought Martin was after coming face to face with him.
When he was asked by 911, he had barely gotten a look at him.

So DUH, think things through, and don't build rockets.

[noiretextatique]

81. not surprising that apologists even excuse perjury

he told the 911 dispatcher Martin was in his late teens. in court, he said he thought he was closer to his age. he has yet to explain the inconsistency.

[Spoonman]

85. Not a rocket scientist or lawyer either........

Feel free to look up "bond hearing procedure" and "perjury".

It's not perjury if your not under oath.

You are desperate to convict this guy without a trial huh?
So desperate in fact that you are asserting he's committed additional crimes such as perjury.
I have to ask why that is.
No one is fully aware of all the evidence, least of all you.

Public opinion for vigilantly justice has been created by willful misrepresentation of the facts by the media and the "racist industry".

They are looking for ratings and political clout, what is the underlying motive to your zealous pursuit?

[Rex]

94. Isn't it so pathetic?

I actually feel sorry for them and their tiny worldview. Must really suck to live like that.

[noiretextatique]

103. they are coming up with ridiculous excuses

e.g., he thought he was older once he saw him up close why shouldn't he be accountable for what he said on the 911 tape and what he said in court?

[Rex]

107. I agree...last time I checked we are all equal under the law.

What I really want to know is how much a hand the SPD and DA had in trying to cover up this heinous crime. I want all parties involved to be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

A child's death screams for justice...let them yap yap yap with their outrageous excuses. Zimmerman is going to rot in jail and there is nothing they can do about it.

[NoGOPZone]

102. but enough of a look to know

that Martin was suspicious.

[Blue_Tires]

65. Funny you mention that, because that's exactly what Zimmerman did:

Convicted Martin (in his mind) of criminal acts without the burden of proof...

The whole point of it is he NEVER had reason to follow him and call 911 in the first place...

[Rex]

100. I will give Zimmerman the right to call 911

as I would any person AND guess what? The operator on the other end of the phone told Zimmerman not to pursue (prosecute) Martin!

So the SYG law? Not applicable in this case.

[patrice]

116. Agreed. Whether it was Racism or not is a red-herring, since it probably can't be established.

Zimmerman had no cause to pursue Trayvon Martin WITH a deadly weapon.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

10. None of this changes a thing.

So George Zimmerman was multiracial. (We already knew that).

And there had been break-ins in the neighborhood where the culprits were alleged to have been young black males.

Not to be flippant, but so fucking what?

That doesn't change the fact that the evidence points to George Zimmerman racially profiling Trayvon Martin for no justifiable reason. Nothing I've read suggests that Trayvon was doing anything except walking home from the store wearing a hoodie.

So other black males may have been involved in crime in the neighborhood--what on earth does that have to do with Trayvon Martin? What was Trayvon Martin doing that was so suspicious to George Zimmerman, other than being a young black male wearing a hoodie and walking at night? I still haven't heard anything to support any reasonable belief that Trayvon Martin was actually acting suspiciously that night. Nothing. Notta. Nilch.

[dkf]

14. So if you are told a white sexual predator has been attacking kids in your neighborhood

And you see a white man in the area and call the police to check him out are you racially profiling?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. If it's a white man just innocently walking down the street, then yeah.

We don't live in a uber-paranoid world of "Everybody's A Suspect."

Probable cause was written into the U.S. Constitution for a good reason, you know.

[Rex]

19. LOL! SERIES!?!?!

Last edited Thu Apr 26, 2012, 06:05 PM - Edit history (1)

You might want to edit that post.


EDIT - Okay thought it was a joke and now I see it was a honest question, YES you are in the act of racial profiling...how does that make you feel?

[noiretextatique]

24. no...the problem is not with the phone call

the problem is: he got out of the car and pursued Martin, after he was told not to do so. the other problem is that he killed Martin, who, as it turns out, was just walking home from the store. if you killed the white guy you SUSPECTED of being a sexual predator, without any evidence that he was, you would be guilty of murder, just like zimmerman.

[uponit7771]

34. Yes

[WilliamPitt]

52. You're a real piece of work.

[JoePhilly]

88. Apparently, the author of the OP left you to defned their OP.

Ad for your question ... no, that would not be profiling ... but if you call the cops and claim the person is acting suspicious ... and yet you have no reason to claim that ... you lose creditability points.

If the cops tell you to stand down until they arrive, you lose credibility points.

You shoot the "suspicious person" a good distance from the spot where the cops told you to stand down, you lose more "credibility points".

Many murders occur inside a location where their are ZERO eye witnesses. And many of those murders end up with GUILTY verdicts because the totality of the evidence leaves little room for the accused.

Zimmerman may end up in that same place. No one saw exactly what happened. But his state of mind can be examined by what he said. It can be inferred by how he acted both before and after the police told him to not pursue Martin.

And again ... the most important thing is that this killing is now being investigated. If not for the national outcry, there would be no investigation of this killing.

I'm sure some would prefer that ... but most of us think a full investigation was and is necessary.

[obamanut2012]

121. Should Zimmerman have been allowed to chase said white man

And cut off his dick? Since he COULD be a sexual predator, since he was white and walking down a public sidewalk, not peering into windows or trying to lure children into his car or anything? Would Zimmerman being part white excuse his doing this?

More and more ridiculous.

[Capt. Obvious]

124. I didn't know there were black people commiting heinous crimes in Zimmerman's neighborhood

You should start a thread about the black people in that gated community that were leaving a trail of bodies prior to Sheriff Zimmerman stepping up to put a stop to it.

[Rex]

139. +1

..

[LanternWaste]

128. Um, no. The definition applies to law enforcement, not individuals.

Um, no. The definition applies to law enforcement, not individuals.

Additionally... "racial profiling does not refer to the act of a law enforcement agent pursuing a suspect in which the specific description of the suspect includes race or ethnicity in combination with other identifying factors...." which denies your scenario as valid even had it been used by a law enforcement agent.

(https://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/racial-profiling-definition)

[patrice]

22. Amongst other things, the human brain is a hypothesis generator, a theory creator, a pattern tester.

Therefore, it's a mistake to characterize all cognitive states in zero-sum terms, "He was either racial profiling or he was not." Some cognitive states are zero-sum, but most such similar, and very common, cognitions are more likely hypothetical stereotyping, a brain function that has wide practical applicability, especially since time and circumstances USUALLY allow such hypotheses to be functionally validated or not and consequently modified if the generator is motivated to do so. Though Trayvon's death MAY have been due to racial profiling, it could very well also have been stereotyping of a different, more functional, order that did not have the time and opportunity to work itself out one way or the other, due to certain essence -tially related traits of the situation, of which the following and the gun are very relevant in what happened to Trayvon. These traits, following & the gun, are either intentionally related to the outcome or they are mistakes that prevented authentic testing of what Z thought.

It's difficult to talk about this kind of stuff without at least appearing to depend upon Plausible Deniability, but the only way we can guess as to the internal state of Z's mind is through outward manifestations and most of those are likely to just be probabilities too: how long did he wait, before he acted on what he thought he knew about Trayvon? What kind of language is relevant. When was the gun drawn? What did he do after the killing? Stuff like that, whatever it turns out to be, some of it could be higher probability support for racial profiling, some of it could be low probability or indeterminant.

What a horrible, horrible, sad, Sad, SAD situation . . . I fear how it can be manipulated from all sides and, thus, affect our futures, likely making such incidents more common, "accidentally on purpose" or not.

[noiretextatique]

29. Trayvon was black, apparently two black males were breaking in to homes in the area

it seems pretty clear to me that zimmerman thought Martin was one of those guys. and WHY did he think that? that also seems pretty clear to me: because Martin was black. zimmerman made several irresponsible choices, including riding around the neighborhood with a loaded weapon. and i don't buy the "i was scared" excuse. if he was so scared, why didn't he stay in the car, as he was asked to do?

[Blue_Tires]

45. I still don't believe that "black men were breaking into homes" fairytale

until there is an actual arrest and conviction of said suspects...

It's a little too convenient of an "out" -- Besides, no one is going to burglarize a home at 7 p.m. on a Sunday...

[noiretextatique]

46. not sure i believe it either...the article repeats that claim

so i was addressing it. to some, it justifies zimmerman's suspicions. in reality, it is further proof that zimmerman profiled Martin because the supposed robbers were black.

[Blue_Tires]

51. The irony of it all is

By people using the "black burglars" reason to explain how Zimmerman wasn't racially profiling, they are STILL racially profiling...

How do they KNOW these supposed burglars were black? Did the neighbors see the burglaries in process? OR When giving their statement to police all the neighbors could say was "We saw some black men in the neighborhood nobody had ever seen before around the time of the break-ins"?

But the "burglary" thing is just a smokescreen anyway...The ultimate question is what was Martin doing at the time to make Zimmerman call 911 and then follow him? If he was not in the process of breaking into a house, then the rest of it is bullshit

[noiretextatique]

54. it is bullshit

the article refers to the buglars are two black men. i am not sure where they got that information.
Martin wasn't doing a damn thing to suspicious, except walking while black.

[marshall]

115. Racial profiling refers to a police activity

I don't like to see Zimmerman elevated to the status of law enforcement.

[noiretextatique]

127. only in his mind

he thought of himself as law enforcement, since he was patrolling the neighborhood with a loaded gun. a legend in his own mind.

[Quixote1818]

20. Didn't entitle Zimmerman to become judge, jury and executioner

of a kid just peacefully walking down the street, because what happened has nothing to do with anything in this article and everything to do with how he handled the situation. He screwed up big time and an innocent kid is dead. Also, the police seemed to continue seeing Trayvon as just another hood which escalated the problem.

[Quixote1818]

21. Holy Crap! A black kids stole Zimmerman's bike and someones lap top got stolen!

Well, that changes everything! They should have been shooting every black kid walking on the street they didn't know. Sounds to me that the crimes in the area were minor and nothing to get all vigilante about.

[-..__...]

23. This could be an important part of Zimmermans defense.

Even a moderately competent lawyer will see the value in putting some of these people on the witness stand as "character witness's".

It also leads to infusing the jury with the crime situation in Zimmermans complex, and what led up to Martins being shot.

[noiretextatique]

25. zimmerman, and zimmerman alone is responsible for Martin's death

it doesn't matter how he grew up or what crime was happening in the neighborhood. he made the decision to act as judge, jury and executioner based on nothing more than the color of Martn's skin.

[-..__...]

31. What you or anyone else believes is irrelevant.

Zimmermans guilt or innocence will be determined by the evidence and testimony introduced in the courtroom.

it doesn't matter how he grew up or what crime was happening in the neighborhood

Then you just need to convince a jury of that... especially if even a single juror has been the victim of a crime or lives in a crime ridden area.

based on nothing more than the color of Martn's skin.

Proving that/trying to convince a jury of that, will be the prosecutors job.

The details outlined in the posted article, will be points introduced by the defense, and those points will have a very compelling influence on the jury's decision.

[noiretextatique]

33. zimmerman apologists will no doubt be in the jury pool

which is why many black people, like myself, fully expect an acquittal. i wish i could have confidence in the justus system, but i do not.

[-..__...]

35. By that logic...

there could be black jurors and/or Martin sympathizers that will vote guilty no matter what the evidence shows.

Given the current (and continuing), media spin/sensation, blogging, etc evolving around this case... filling a jury pool is going to be a daunting task.

If I lived in the area, and I was called to potentially serve on that jury... no fucking way!!!

I'd do whatever it took to avoid being exposed the 3 ring circus this trial is going to be.

[noiretextatique]

36. that is a possibility

i doubt the defense wants any black people on the jury, and it will be difficult to find an impartial jury...that's for sure.

[-..__...]

39. It will/would be difficult...

but that's only part of the problem..

There could be plenty of potential impartial jurors to impanel, but finding impartial jurors that would have no problems, misgivings or 2nd thoughts about sitting on that particular jury could be an even bigger problem.

[noiretextatique]

42. that's true too...

i am sure many people would not want to serve on the jury.

[-..__...]

59. Would you (want to be on that jury)?

There's no way of telling at this point in time if this is going to be a long, drawn out trial like OJ's (but, it's possible), or if the jury will be sequestered or not.

I have no problem performing jury duty... been summonsed 3 times, served twice (once as an alternate).

But, I'd have to draw the line somewhere... just about any high profile trial would be more than I want to deal with.

[HangOnKids]

43. It Happens All The Time Potential Juries Watch The News

Why you are so concerned with the Zimmerman case is interesting. Oh no, maybe it isn't.

[-..__...]

58. You have something to say?

Spit it out... don't be shy about it.

[HangOnKids]

61. How about this

Why don't you go take a nap? You think you are clever, but here is a big tip...YOU AREN'T. Take a nap.

[-..__...]

62. Yawnnnn...

I think I will now that you mention it.

Wake me up in an hour or so... thanks.

[HangOnKids]

80. Good You Need A Resty Poo Babe

It does wonders.

[Rex]

97. By their own words, they admit to their opinion being worthless.

So it looks like once again, just a huge waste of time with people that don't care about justice.

[Rex]

95. So by your own admission, what you believe is irrelevant?

[-..__...]

118. Did I ever post that it wasn't?

No sweat off my balls.

At least I'm not part of the mob mentality that's hoping to convict Zimmerman in the court of public opinion and court of law.

Good thing those opinions are "irrelevant", otherwise the guy would have been keel hauled and swinging from the yard arm by now.

[patrice]

50. If it is evil for George Zimmerman to kill Trayvon Martin for what Trayvon could but NOT necessarily

WOULD have done (as we did to the Innocent People of Iraq, btw) i.e. stealing-&-unjustified-violence-against-Z, then it is evil for us to hurt and/or kill George Zimmerman for what he could, but not necessarily WOULD have done to Trayvon Martin, i.e. racially motivated cold-blooded murder.

Capability IS different from Intentionality, after-all, they intersect but are not identical. This is why it is difficult to read people's intentionality from their capabilities; all we have are whatever manifestations of the capabilities that are available to us, which might or might not reveal a significant probability of intentionality or will.

And if it is okay/good for us to kill or harm George Zimmerman for what he could, but not necessarily would, have done to Trayvon Martin, murder, then it is okay for George Zimmerman to kill Trayvon Martin for what he could but not necessarily would have done.

[noiretextatique]

56. zimmerman is going to be on trial for second-degree murder

and i don't think the punishment is death. really...you are trying very hard to say something, however, i am not sure what it is.
zimmerman shot and killed Martin, and that is why he is on trial. Martin is dead because of this fool's suspicions, perceptions...whatever. what zimmerman did IS A CRIME, and that's why he is being prosecuted.

[patrice]

60. We agree that it is a crime. We may not agree about exactly which crime it is - AND - what

the consequences should be.

If it is wrong to do summary punishment/execution to Trayvon, that's also wrong to do to Zimmerman and if it isn't wrong to do summary punishment/execution to Zimmerman, then it isn't wrong to do that to Trayvon. That's what a RIGHT to whatever Justice is possible means.

Sorry about the difficulty of what I'm trying to say. I just abhor becoming the very same as that which I hate, because that then negates justice for people like Trayvon and turns EVERYTHING into a question of who has power to do what to whom for WHATEVER reason.

To me, that IS killing Trayvon over and over and over and over again *F*O*R*E*V*E*R* and *E*V*E*R*.

[noiretextatique]

77. as far as i know, only the new black panther party has threatened zimmerman's life

i certainly am not executing zimmerman by stating my belief that he is guilty of murder. and as far as i know, no one is saying that he should not have a trial, so how can you equate what zimmerman did to Trayvon to zimmerman being tried in a court of law is beyond me. if anything, the sanford police department killed Trayvon again by failing to arrest zimmerman that night. and the zimmerman apologists and defenders are killing him daily. go to any article about this on the net and look at the comments. i've seen posts where people have called him a "ghetto thug." among other things.

[patrice]

82. If people place the desire to execute the guy ahead of the desire for the truth, that's the SAME

thing that Z apparently did to Trayvon.

There are plenty of people who want "Justice" BECAUSE it CAN hurt, even kill, Zimmerman. If the people who actually want authentic Justice do not differentiate themselves from that crowd, no matter what the outcome of the trial is, Trayvon Martin WILL NOT get Justice. If Z has no RIGHT to Justice, then neither does Trayvon. And if Trayvon has no right to Justice then neither does Z and all any of this is REALLY about is about the POWER TO HURT WHOMEVER *Y*O*U* DECIDE and have the power to hurt and, ergo, Zimmerman "did the right thing".

[noiretextatique]

111. where are you getting this "execute" thing?

he killed someone and he will be tried, and quite possibly acquitted. where is the justice in that?! do i think he is guilty: HELL YES. do i think he deserves prison time: HELL YES. do i think a florida jury will convict him: HELL NO. because he killed who he killed, he may very likely walk...and because of that idiotic SYG law. the only justice Martin's family will get in from a civil suit. that's what i think, and i really hope i am wrong.

[patrice]

113. execute or otherwise punish, just guessing here about the relevance of capital punishment in FL. As

you can see, I'm not convinced that he's a murdering Racist. I'm not so sure how the trial is going to turn out, leaning in your direction, though, something like 55:45/acquittal:guilty-of-something-authentically-appropriate, maybe more like 60:40.

[noiretextatique]

114. i am convinced that he is a wannabe cop who racially profiled

stalked and murdered an unarmed teenager, and i will be pleasantly surprised if is convicted of anything. however, he will not get the death penalty for a charge of second-degree murder, not even in florida.

[LynneSin]

69. 911 told Zimmerman to BACK AWAY

He had the avantage of having his SUV - he could have gotten into the car and drove away - let the police figure out what Trayvon Martin was doing in the neighborhood.

I don't care what background Zimmerman had - he disregarded the Neighborhood Watch guidelines (to not carry a gun and only report any suspicious activities) and he disregarded what 911 told him.

Was it 2nd degree murder - who knows? But Zimmerman should still be held accountable for Trayvon Martin's death.

[Rex]

99. The moment Zimmerman started to chase Martin

the SYG law went bye bye and has no place in this trial. It also means Zimmerman meant to prosecute (pursue) Martin in some manner or another, which in this case means he executed a child in cold blood.

Sorry trolls...Zimm is going to do hard time and you will just have to deal with your hatred of justice in some other way.

[LynneSin]

110. Exactly and it's going to be that call to 911 that will show Zimmerman as guilty

But I wouldn't be surprised if he ultimately plea-bargains it down to manslaughter.

I see alot of work by Zimmerman's new lawyers to paint him as a 'nice guy' in hopes to get a 'not-guilty'.

But I just don't see how anyone can justify what he did when 911 dispatcher told him to back off. And if I'm correct he was near his truck so if there was any concern with Zimmerman's safety he could have driven away.

[Rex]

112. Yeah the slime will find some way to get the least sentence.

I hope not, but you are right and I would be naive to think otherwise.

[-..__...]

119. Do you mind if I forward your post to the parties involved?

Since you're that convinced that Zimmerman will be doing "hard time" (or is it your wish that he will be doing "hard time" before any evidence is even presented), it must certainly be factual and "relevant" to the case.

Perhaps they can come to some agreement that dispenses away with the complexities, time and expense
of a silly ol'trial and arraign for Georgie to serve "hey... this isn't as bad as I thought it would be" time instead?

And you have the nerve to mention "justice".

What a fucking joke.

[noiretextatique]

126. were you convinced that OJ was guilty? did that mean you didn't want him to have a trial?

this zimmerman bastard will have his trial. i am convinced he is guilty, and obvious so are a lot of people. that does not mean he should not have a trial, no matter how many times you and others claim that. we can certainly have opinions and speculations, and the murderous bastard will have his trial, and probably walk. what is a fucking joke is conflating discussions on the internet with "justice"...it is absolutely absurd. and what is more absurd is believing a trial will somehow bring out the truth. the defense will try to smear the victim, and try to paint zimmerman as a saint. it's what we have to rely on, but it is fair from "justice."

[Rex]

141. Don't cry to me about not understanding what happened.

It just burns you up that Zimmerman will be doing hard time doesn't it!

What a fucking joke indeed, your drivel is amusing but that is it.

[helloyall]

131. 911 has NO legal authority!

911 dispatched could tell someone to shoot someone but that doesn't mean that person has to do it.

[cyberswede]

132. He should have done as the 911 dispatchers advised, legal authority or not

Dispatchers are experienced in providing verbal advice to callers - they have protocols to promote safety in all kinds of situations. They have more authority than Zimmerman did.

Oh...and yby your argument above, the cops could tell someone to shoot someone, too, but that doesn't mean they have to do it, either.

[helloyall]

136. so you agree dispatch has no legal authority?

Dispatch knows best huh?

[cyberswede]

137. Clearly, in this case, they did.

If he had followed their recommendation, TM would be alive, and GZ wouldn't be under scrutiny.

[helloyall]

148. this makes no sense!

In this case they hads legal authority because if Zimmerman would have listened, Martin wouldn't be dead?

That gives dispatch legal authority? I don't think so!

[cyberswede]

152. My reply was to this:

Dispatch knows best huh?

...and yes, clearly they did know best in this case.

[Hugabear]

91. Well that certainly means he had a right to shoot & kill any unfamiliar black men he saw

x 1,000,000

[etherealtruth]

109. I am trying to figure out why this is relevant

I have had some horrific experiences in my life (and some extraordinary ones) ... at no point will my life experiences explain or provide excuse if I murder someone.

Zimmerman is human, his story is a very human one ... he also killed a kid.

He cut short the life of a teenager ... one that will never have any more experiences.

[shimonitanegi]

120. Zimmerman obviously had a gripe with black men in their late teens.

That's why he was so angered by Martin's walking around his neighborhood.
The only reason I can think of that Zimmerman had to follow Martin with a loaded gun was that he wanted to settle the score with this black kid he thought was suspicious.
Zimmerman was a ticking time bomb waiting to go off.

[Dogtown]

123. Apologist.

[jpak]

129. He's still killed Trayvon Martin - who committed no crime - because he was black

Racist vigilante apology fail

yup

[Rex]

143. Exactly the Fail in this thread by Zimm apologists is

disgusting. I guess racists have no shame.

[vaberella]

159. Okay so Zimmerman shot Trayvon because another supposed Black kid stole his bike.

gotcha.