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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe demonization of Chris Kyle
Frankly, the outpouring of venom against this young man has left me baffled and not a little disturbed. How so many intelligent people can’t see that he was indoctrinated into the military and was simply doing his job, is beyond me.
Is it because he did his job well? Is it because he was unapologetic for it? How could he not be and do what he saw as his duty, to protect his fellow troops? Is it because of the ‘tales’ he told upon his return, none of which have been verified and most of which are laughable? Do you know he wasn't suffering from PSTD?
I get that people don’t like the movie. I get they hate war and all that it entails. What I don’t get is demonizing a man who simply did what he was put there to do by our government and did it well.
Hate the game, not the player.
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2naSalit
(86,600 posts)
Erose999
(5,624 posts)the hero the reichwingers are claiming he is. I saw the trailer for that movie and I fucking vomited.
sinkingfeeling
(51,457 posts)kind of turns some people off.
earthside
(6,960 posts)
spanone
(135,831 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)That makes him a mass murderer regardless of what he did in Iraq.
Initech
(100,070 posts)Just to throw onto the pile there.
Reter
(2,188 posts)n/t
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)It seems Kyle thought taking a fellow veteran suffering from PTSD to a gun range was a good treatment.
Didn't work out so well.
Reter
(2,188 posts)I personally don't believe it. He was talking too much, someone wanted him dead. Of course, you could be right but I hold my doubts.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)when he claimed to enjoy killing, stereotyped all Iraqis and Arabs as "subhuman" monster and claimed to have killed several dozen American citizens during the Katrina crisis in New Orleans.
There is nothing honorable about Mr. Kyle. I am quite disgusted with Eastwood and Cooper for this piece of propaganda they made.
Ghost of Tom Joad
(1,355 posts)wonder if his father was as overbearing and influential as the film portrays him?
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Generation after generation they are raised to see the world in tribes. Nuance is just as bad as being the opposition.
MFM008
(19,808 posts)eaxclty
The chair whisperer Eastwood strikes again.
ileus
(15,396 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Sorry, I can't consider anyone a hero who enjoyed killing innocent Iraqis, and was so callous he thought taking a depressed veteran to a shooting range was good therapy.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)to the right, the same people praising him would be calling that a "Darwin Award."
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)at the firing range to get that vet to 'be a man' or something -- until he broke.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Good point.
Reter
(2,188 posts)He started opening his big moth too much. One poster above said he had said he was ordered to kill in Katrina.
walkingman
(7,612 posts)and have no interest in finding out or watching the movie. I am against war and anything we do to glamorize it or make heroes from it are simply going in the wrong direction. We make sports figures and war figures America's heroes and we should be making the peace keepers our heroes.
Supporting dem troops!!!
2naSalit
(86,600 posts)Initech
(100,070 posts)Needless to say, it set off a Twitter shit storm among arrogant conservatives who didn't bother to do any research, but his point is completely valid and adds an interesting twist to the debate:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/american-sniper-makes-tarantinos-over-the-top-movie-our-sad-reality/
braddy
(3,585 posts)some just weren't ready for such a shocking revelation.
Saucepan of Kerbango
(48 posts)Guy did his job. Did a very good job at his job. I'm betting the Marines he protected on overwatch are grateful he was there.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)were just collateral?
Are you saying he was just following orders.
Saucepan of Kerbango
(48 posts)If civilians were carrying weapons or placing IEDs, then they're no longer civilians. The next trope will here is that he was a white guy angry with the non-white guys, never mind the black sniper.
Most people that go to war don't get a chance to exercise the skills they learned in their specialty. Kyle did, and the people he protected are grateful.
braddy
(3,585 posts)a George McGovern and dropping bombs on cities as a B-24 pilot.
Saucepan of Kerbango
(48 posts)His task in an overwatch role was to pick out targets of opportunity that were potential threats to the Marines going house to house. Simply because you don't like that role does not mean that it wasn't effective. It was.
braddy
(3,585 posts)his targets for military value, not killing indiscriminately as the person I responded to implied.
An American Special Operations sniper would not be creating collateral damage. A real sniper is a surgeon.
Saucepan of Kerbango
(48 posts)And I have no reason to believe he did otherwise. I'm glad he was there on overwatch. So are the guys I served with. A single sniper in an advantageous position is a complete gamechanger. No beef with anything Kyle did in combat. None.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)That alone makes him a cold blooded murder.
delta17
(283 posts)From what I've read, some unnamed reporter overheard him telling this story in a bar. Not exactly rock solid evidence.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Why would such a hero lie about a thing like that? Would he still be a hero if he was a liar? What if he lied about his kills in Iraq? If he was untruthful in regards to Katrina, what wouldn't he lie about? Why would he need to lie?
delta17
(283 posts)There is still absolutely no evidence that he killed people in New Orleans besides hearsay from some unnamed reporter.
DinahMoeHum
(21,786 posts). . .for libel regarding the Jesse Ventura situation.
How many other lies and embellishments did this guy tell?
At this point, I'd say the only facts remaining in his book are the page numbers.
MFM008
(19,808 posts)thats real honorable.
delta17
(283 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)No quiet professionalism for him.
“Ninety per cent of being cool is looking cool,” he wrote in his book. He had such a need to be thought of as a badass that he couldn't stop with just the truth. He had to make things up.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)He enjoyed killing people. Most vets that I know, and I know a lot of vets, don't go around bragging about it for the rest of their lives. Usually, they have problems with it, because that is what mentally healthy, non sociopaths do. They don't brag about it and enjoy it.
a psychopath.
atreides1
(16,079 posts)"It's taken us only a couple of generations to go from our unequivocal rejection of the "Nuremberg Defense"--the idea that following orders, or doing one's job, exonerates one from whatever inhumanity is carried out as a result--to actually embracing that excuse as an honorable trait in an American service member.
That we, as a nation, have so thoroughly abandoned the ethical position we took in the wake of WWII, and have instead, embraced the notion that a hero is someone who holds the record for killing people because they were following orders should give us pause every time we're thumping our chests on the world stage, but I suppose when we're thumping our chest like we do, we're too busy looking at our form in the mirror, rather than looking at the horrified stares coming from the audience."
braddy
(3,585 posts)Since when did American snipers become something bad?
Hiram Berdan (1824–1893), commanded 1st and 2nd US Sharpshooters during the American Civil War.[1]
Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart were Delta Force snipers who were awarded the Medal of Honor for their fatal attempt to protect the injured crew of a downed helicopter during the Battle of Mogadishu.[2]
Carlos Hathcock (1942–1999), renowned United States Marine Corps sniper.[3]
Chris Kyle (1974–2013), a former US Navy SEAL credited with 160 confirmed kills out of a probable 255.[citation needed] Credited with the most sniper kills in U.S. military history.[citation needed]
Marcus Luttrell (born 1975), a United States Navy SEAL known for being the lone surviving member of SDV Team 1 in the Operation Red Wings ambush in Afghanistan, 2005.[4]
Herbert W. McBride, US citizen and captain in the 21st Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force, during the First World War.
Chuck Mawhinney (born 1949), a United States Marine Corps sniper who holds the record for most confirmed kills by a US Marine.[5]
Timothy Murphy was an American Revolutionary War sniper who killed British General Simon Fraser during the Battle of Saratoga.[1]
John Plaster, former American special forces major.[6]
Adelbert Waldron (1933–1995), a United States Army sniper who held the record for the most confirmed kills by a US military sniper (109).[7]
Alvin C. York (1887-1964), 82nd Infantry Division, notably mentioned as an expert sharp shooter using an M1917 Enfield rifle during the Meuse-Argonne offensive near Chatel-Chéhéry, France, 1918 in World War I. Almost single handed in one day, York took out 32 machine guns using rifle fire, killed 28 German soldiers (six at close range with a Colt .45), and captured 132 enemy soldiers. York's actions earned him the Medal of Honor and he was promoted to sergeant.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)When they kill people in service of an illegal aggressive war waged on false pretenses. I don't care how "heroic" his actions may have been, he was still killing people in a country that he should never have been deployed to.
He, himself, is just a soldier and soldiers do what they're told. However, every death in Iraq at the hands of a U.S. soldier is "something bad" because none of them should have ever been sent there.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)given that a short 12 years ago Democrats opposed illegal wars.
Now, "Liberals" cheer for it, from sniper hero-worship to destroying Libya to pushing air strikes in Syria.
Disgusting.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)I do think there's a more nuanced way to look at Kyle's work as a sniper in Iraq. There's a psychological necessity for combat troops to otherize and justify when it comes to killing; it's a defense mechanism against guilt and stress.
Should Kyle have gotten treatment for that once he left? Absolutely.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)It's why I oppose war, because of what it entails by necessity. I think we should take the focus off of Chris Kyle, and consider the larger context. Nothing about our destruction of Iraq and subsequent brutal occupation should be viewed as heroic.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)He should have gotten treatment psychologically. He enjoyed killing and hardly anyone batted an eyelash over that fact. There is something wrong with that picture. I've met plenty of vets who had to kill and they don't go around talking about it. As a matter of fact, you'd be hard pressed to get them to talk about it at all. It's hard for them. It wasn't for him. He even bragged about how much fun he thought it was.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)The guy wanted to kill some foreigners before he even went overseas.
I think he probably had psychological problems before he went to war.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)They never were. Some pretend to be, some just join the conversation and hope no one asks them what they are, but they are not now nor ever were Liberals.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)It's amusing to see posters with usernames like "SuperLeftyUltraLibDem" cheer for war, attack whistle blowers, excuse torture, worship military strength, kowtow to the police state, whine about the use of the term "white privilege," defend Gitmo, denigrate those concerned with NSA surveillance of citizens and provide excuses for weakening Social Security.
Yeah, we've got some "Super Left Ultra Liberals" for sure.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)There's no doubt that Kyle was a skilled sniper. However, he was caught in a number of lies about his post-military experience. Why would ANYONE accept his version of his life?
braddy
(3,585 posts)10 years of his life in the Navy, is that hard to know about.
The man was an heroic wartime sailor, not Satan.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)So if a movie about his military service was a worthwhile project, perhaps it should have been based on interviews with his fellow sailors and his commanding officers.
braddy
(3,585 posts)sniper's military service is well documented, especially his sniping duties.
DesertDawg
(66 posts)There is not a designated official that can or does enter the Field to count the bodies. The only thing Documented is what a Soldier reports and is taken at face value. In Chris Kyle's case he could have easily upped the total body count he reported each time, fudged lines and on Solo Missions popped off his rifle into a bush and proclaimed those rounds as sniper kills.
The fact he has repeatedly caught in lie after lie after lie after lie regarding his Military and Civilian lives, it is only rational to put the rest of his tall tales into question.
braddy
(3,585 posts)usually higher than their official count.
"Christopher Scott "Chris" Kyle (April 8, 1974 – February 2, 2013) was a United States Navy SEAL proclaimed to be the most lethal sniper in U.S. military history, having accumulated 160 confirmed kills out of 255 probable kills. These numbers are based on individual shooter logs, filled out at the end of a mission, and reported to higher command. Confirmed kills must have a witness."
DesertDawg
(66 posts)What I said came straight from a former Sniper, so back to the Neocon drawing board to try again.
braddy
(3,585 posts)the beloved Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock.
"During the Vietnam War, Hathcock had 93 confirmed kills of North Vietnamese Army (NVA) and Viet-Cong personnel. During the Vietnam War, kills had to be confirmed by an acting third party, who had to be an officer, besides the sniper's spotter. Snipers often did not have an acting third party present, making confirmation difficult, especially if the target was behind enemy lines, as was usually the case.
Hathcock himself estimated that he had killed 300 or more enemy personnel during his time in Vietnam."
"Christopher Scott "Chris" Kyle (April 8, 1974 – February 2, 2013) was a United States Navy SEAL proclaimed to be the most lethal sniper in U.S. military history, having accumulated 160 confirmed kills out of 255 probable kills. These numbers are based on individual shooter logs, filled out at the end of a mission, and reported to higher command. Confirmed kills must have a witness."
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)heroism in war and in peace time, and for helping create what some think is the world's top sniper program.
You have to remember that we are talking military subjects now, you may not share the same knowledge and interest in someone like Hathcock, that so many millions of veterans and military people do.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)and the level of respect in the veteran's and military for him should be embarrassing you, I'm not embarrassed that I know who he is and know what esteem he is held in by the warrior class of our tribe.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)are beloved; sweethearts are beloved.
Snipers are not beloved unless you're some kind of psycho.
Killers are not beloved. Even if they kill to save lives.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Were his records used to write the script for this film, or was it just Kyle's version of events?
braddy
(3,585 posts)elite Special Operations sniper, and the most prolific sniper in American history, and a highly decorated war hero.
braddy
(3,585 posts)a 4 tour combat vet who survived 3 gun shot wounds, and was awarded an extraordinary number of awards for heroism.
What is your complaint?
Matrosov
(1,098 posts)It's only been in the last two decades that our society as a whole has given snipers a hero status. In the days of the Vietnam war for example, even many American soldiers did not want to associate with the snipers, who were seen as cowards at best and psychopaths at worst.
Many soldiers never know whether they ever killed someone. The ones dropping bombs from planes and the ones manning mortars and artillery pieces don't see their targets. Even many frontline grunts aren't sure if the enemy who fell over dead in the distance was killed by them or by one of their fellow soldiers.
There is no such uncertainty with snipers. They know when they look at someone through their scope and pull the trigger that they were the one to kill that enemy. Many soldiers felt only someone without a conscience could knowingly take a life like that. For others it was a matter of there not being any honor in shooting someone from afar, perhaps even in the back.
braddy
(3,585 posts)You think Carlos Hathcock was demonized by his fellow Marines in Vietnam? "Hathcock also killed a female Viet Cong sniper called “Apache Woman.” She delighted in torturing and slowly killing young Marines wounded in ambush or in traps set for them in the jungle"
Do you think that many regular GIs wanted to face the personal danger of being a high level sniper in Vietnam operating behind enemy lines and forward, often alone, and with the enemy assigning troops and details and snipers just to kill you individually, and getting a massive reward just for killing you, not your fellow soldiers, but YOU?
"Often, Land said, a sniper would have to sit for long periods totally still and silent. If the enemy was near, any movement could mean instant death. “A lot of times you would be sitting so long in one place you either urinated or defecated in your trousers,” he said."
"Hathcock shot and killed a North Vietnamese Army general from a range of about 700 yards. Hathcock literally spent days crawling, inches at a time, to get within range of the general’s command post.--After hurrying for the cover of the jungle, it took Hathcock about an hour to meet his getaway helicopter that flew him out of harm’s way."
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Really? Every single one?
Every single one, at the hands of ANY foreign soldier!
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Separate question - do you think his death at the hands of US forces was bad?
polly7
(20,582 posts)and did some pretty horrible things himself, but I see what you're trying to do, (and it's pathetic.)
A bit different than all those millions who actually lived there who did nothing to deserve a horrific, unprovoked invasion and have suffered so much for it.
Separate question, well .... two, actually - what about the Iraqi 'insurgents/aka citizens' who chose to fight? Were their deaths bad? How about their torture?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I'm just asking a question. This is a discussion board. The point is to ask challenging questions and get one another thinking.
I hope you were able to take the question in that spirit.
I certainly would agree with you if you claimed that many of the people who were killed and/or tortured were simply ordinary people who believed they were defending their homeland from outside aggressors.
Where I disagree is in stating emphatically that this is the case for every single person killed in Iraq by US or coalition forces.
That is why I brought up the example of Zarqawi as the strongest counterpoint to that claim.
There were also many members of the Baath party who were guilty of awful crimes against the people of Iraq and so on.
polly7
(20,582 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)who didn't, in a sovereign nation that provoked no-one and didn't ask for ANY of this?
Would you welcome a foreign military into the U.S. to 'clean-up' a few bad guys - maybe the KKK, or skinheads, or mass-murderers? If not, why not??
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)mountain grammy
(26,620 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Maybe because he didn't have to do a job, like killing a child (how did that keep his fellow soldiers safe, I would think that would make them LESS safe btw) which he claims to have had some reservations about. All he had to do was what other much more courageous heroes did, refuse to murder innocent people for no reason.
But as he said, he 'enjoyed killing them, he didn't care about the Iraqi people (didn't we go there to rescue them from Saddam?). So he's no hero, unlike the far more courageous soldiers who reported war crimes and/or refused to kill innocents and were willing to pay the price for doing what is right.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)His entire attitude about killing human beings was disgusting. He saw the Iraqi people as subhuman and enjoyed killing them. He bragged about himself far too much. He lied about a Navy SEAL and defamed him, proven in a court of law. He made himself out to be the demon. No one else has to demonize him. He did it himself. People are just pointing out the truth about the man, which the movie tries to gloss over.
braddy
(3,585 posts)
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)In other words, a different elite special force team. Your point, although technically true, isn't really relevant.
braddy
(3,585 posts)Ventura did not serve with the SEALs, nor did he serve in Vietnam as he claimed. His claims to being a SEAL annoys a lot of SEALs.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)for some reason although UDT existed, JFK wanted to create SEALs in 1962 for some reason, while keeping the UDT.
The UDTs pioneered combat swimming, closed-circuit diving, underwater demolitions, and midget submarine (dry and wet submersible) operations. They were the precursor to the present-day United States Navy SEALs.(2)
In 1983, after additional SEAL training, the UDTs were re-designated as SEAL Teams or Swimmer Delivery Vehicle Teams (SDVTs). SDVTs have since been re-designated SEAL Delivery Vehicle Teams.(3)
President John F. Kennedy, aware of the situation in Southeast Asia, recognized the need for unconventional warfare and special operations as a measure against guerrilla warfare. ...he announced his intention to spend over $100 million to strengthen U.S. special operations forces ... Some people erroneously credit President Kennedy with creating the Navy SEALs. His announcement was actually only a formal acknowledgement of a process that had been under way since Korea.(19)
... In March 1961, Arleigh Burke, Chief of Naval Operations, recommended the establishment of guerrilla and counter-guerrilla units. These units would be able to operate from sea, air or land. This was the beginning of the Navy SEALs. All SEALs came from the Navy's Underwater Demolition Teams, who had already gained extensive experience in commando warfare in Korea.... (20)(21)
(2) Cunningham, Chet (2004). The Frogmen of World War II: An Oral History of the U.S. Navy's Underwater Demolition Teams. Pocket Star. ISBN 978-0-7434-8216-5.
(3) Navy SEAL history: http://navyseals.com/nsw/navy-seal-history/?page=0%2C1
(19) Genesis of the U.S. Navy’s SEa, Air, Land (SEAL) Teams | National Navy UDT-SEAL Museum. Navysealmuseum.com. Retrieved on 2014-05-24.
(20) ^ "Navy SEAL History". SOFREP Inc. Retrieved 12 May 2013.
(21)Watson, James (1997). Walking Point: The Experience of a Founding Member of the Elite Navy SEALs. New York, New York: William Morrow & Co. ISBN 0688143024.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_Demolition_Team#cite_note-frogmen-2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs
braddy
(3,585 posts)UDT men had to be trained to become SEALs. Decades after the SEALs were created, the Navy ended UDT, and then "trained" the UDT into being SEALs, I have to assume that not all made it, for instance
Ventura didn't even try back when he was in UDT.
Of course they would have drawn their first SEAL volunteers from UDT, just as Beckwith limited his first volunteers for Delta, to the Army Special Forces and the Rangers,( although the Rangers were blocked by their commander from being lost to Delta, for which Beckwith went up the chain to rescind that order).
For years the "Green Berets" were given the Ranger lineage as their history, until in time, their roots were instead called the OSS.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)you post.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)The first two teams were formed in January 1962[22] and stationed on both US coasts... Formed entirely with personnel from UDTs, the SEALs mission was to conduct counter guerilla warfare and clandestine operations in maritime and riverine environments.[7]
Men of the newly formed SEAL Teams were trained in such unconventional areas as hand-to-hand combat, high-altitude parachuting, demolitions, and foreign languages. The SEALs attended Underwater Demolition Team replacement training and they spent some time training in UDTs. Upon making it to a SEAL team, they would undergo a SEAL Basic Indoctrination (SBI) training class at Camp Kerry in the Cuyamaca Mountains....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs#Underwater_Demolition_Teams
Welcome to UDT - SEAL Association
https://www.udtseal.org/
braddy
(3,585 posts)They had UDT, but needed SEALs, so they created them and had UDT for UDT work, and SEALs for SEAL work.
As your source says "President Kennedy, aware of the situations in Southeast Asia, recognized the need for unconventional warfare and utilized Special Operations as a measure against guerrilla activity. In a speech to Congress in May 1961, Kennedy shared his deep respect of the Green Berets. He announced the government’s plan to put a man on the moon, and, in the same speech, allocated over one hundred million dollars toward the strengthening of the Special Forces in order to expand the strength of the American conventional forces.Realizing the administration’s favor of the Army’s Green Berets, the Navy needed to determine its role within the Special Forces arena. In March of 1961, the Chief of Naval Operations recommended the establishment of guerrilla and counter-guerrilla units. These units would be able to operate from sea, air or land. This was the beginning the official Navy SEALs. Many SEAL members came from the Navy’s UDT units, who had already gained experience in commando warfare in Korea; however, the UDTs were still necessary to the Navy’s amphibious force.
The first two teams were on opposite coasts: Team Two in Little Creek, Virginia and Team ONE in Coronado, California. The men of the newly formed SEAL Teams were educated in such unconventional areas as hand-to-hand combat, high altitude parachuting, safecracking, demolitions and languages. Among the varied tools and weapons required by the Teams was the AR-15 assault rifle, a new design that evolved into today’s M-16. The SEAL’s attended UDT Replacement training and they spent some time cutting their teeth at a UDT Team. Upon making it to a SEAL Team, they would undergo a three-month SEAL Basic Indoctrination (SBI) training class at Camp Kerry in the Cuyamaca Mountains. After SBI training class, they would enter a platoon and train in platoon tactics (especially for the conflict in Vietnam)."
From wiki--"Although Ventura underwent UDT training, he never attempted the additional 26-week SEAL Qualification Training."
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)President John F. Kennedy, aware of the situation in Southeast Asia, recognized the need for unconventional warfare and special operations as a measure against guerrilla warfare. In a speech, to Congress, on 25 May 1961, Kennedy spoke of his deep respect for the United States Army Special Forces. While his announcement of the government's plan to put a man on the moon drew most of the attention, in the same speech he announced his intention to spend over $100 million to strengthen U.S. special operations forces and expand American capabilities in unconventional warfare. Some people erroneously credit President Kennedy with creating the Navy SEALs. His announcement was actually only a formal acknowledgement of a process that had been under way since Korea.[19]
The Navy needed to determine its role within the special operations arena. In March 1961, Arleigh Burke, Chief of Naval Operations, recommended the establishment of guerrilla and counter-guerrilla units. These units would be able to operate from sea, air or land. This was the beginning of the Navy SEALs. All SEALs came from the Navy's Underwater Demolition Teams, who had already gained extensive experience in commando warfare in Korea; however, the Underwater Demolition Teams were still necessary to the Navy's amphibious force.[20][21]
Members of SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team Two in a Dry Deck Shelter of the submerged USS Philadelphia
The first two teams were formed in January 1962[22] and stationed on both US coasts: Team One at Naval Amphibious Base Coronado, in San Diego, California and Team Two at Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek, in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Formed entirely with personnel from UDTs, the SEALs mission was to conduct counter guerilla warfare and clandestine operations in maritime and riverine environments.[7] Men of the newly formed SEAL Teams were trained in such unconventional areas as hand-to-hand combat, high-altitude parachuting, demolitions, and foreign languages. The SEALs attended Underwater Demolition Team replacement training and they spent some time training in UDTs. Upon making it to a SEAL team, they would undergo a SEAL Basic Indoctrination (SBI) training class at Camp Kerry in the Cuyamaca Mountains. After SBI training class, they would enter a platoon and conduct platoon training.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs#Underwater_Demolition_Teams
braddy
(3,585 posts)(3) Navy SEAL history: http://navyseals.com/nsw/navy-seal-history/?page=0%2C1
And you really don't seem to understand that of course most of the first volunteers for the SEALs would come from UDT, why do you think the first volunteers for Delta all came from the Green Berets (the Rangers were desired for volunteers as well, but the Ranger commander blocked them since there were so few Rangers at the time)?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)to develop a Navy Unconventional Warfare capability."
ALL CAME FROM UDT. Which you denied. The first SEAL teams were all UDT. Which is what I claimed, and you denied. There's a direct link between the two. Which you deny.
I don't see the misstatements you typed on the page you directed me to. Where did they come from?
braddy
(3,585 posts)and using the example of Delta Force, as I keep repeating, "of course" most of the first volunteers for SEALs would have come from UDT and received further training to become SEALs, did you think they would come from submariners or cooks?
You seem to think that no additional training was required to make a UDT volunteer into a SEAL, in your mind, they were just two different names and two different units, for no reason. From wiki--"Although Ventura underwent UDT training, he never attempted the additional 26-week SEAL Qualification Training."
Your inability (refusal) to click on your own source-- http://navyseals.com/nsw/navy-seal-history/?page=0%2C1 --and see this cut and paste, is a little scary.
""President Kennedy, aware of the situations in Southeast Asia, recognized the need for unconventional warfare and utilized Special Operations as a measure against guerrilla activity. In a speech to Congress in May 1961, Kennedy shared his deep respect of the Green Berets. He announced the government’s plan to put a man on the moon, and, in the same speech, allocated over one hundred million dollars toward the strengthening of the Special Forces in order to expand the strength of the American conventional forces.Realizing the administration’s favor of the Army’s Green Berets, the Navy needed to determine its role within the Special Forces arena. In March of 1961, the Chief of Naval Operations recommended the establishment of guerrilla and counter-guerrilla units. These units would be able to operate from sea, air or land. This was the beginning the official Navy SEALs. Many SEAL members came from the Navy’s UDT units, who had already gained experience in commando warfare in Korea; however, the UDTs were still necessary to the Navy’s amphibious force.
The first two teams were on opposite coasts: Team Two in Little Creek, Virginia and Team ONE in Coronado, California. The men of the newly formed SEAL Teams were educated in such unconventional areas as hand-to-hand combat, high altitude parachuting, safecracking, demolitions and languages. Among the varied tools and weapons required by the Teams was the AR-15 assault rifle, a new design that evolved into today’s M-16. The SEAL’s attended UDT Replacement training and they spent some time cutting their teeth at a UDT Team. Upon making it to a SEAL Team, they would undergo a three-month SEAL Basic Indoctrination (SBI) training class at Camp Kerry in the Cuyamaca Mountains. After SBI training class, they would enter a platoon and train in platoon tactics (especially for the conflict in Vietnam).""
jen63
(813 posts)UDT are are given the SEAL designation with the OK of the Navy. They are as much SEALS as "actual" SEALS. No difference according to the Navy.
braddy
(3,585 posts)had to back off off that, while the UDT has been merged in with SEALs by the Navy, and they are now able to use the name and the trident, Ventura has made these statements, he never hunted men, and was never in Vietnam, and he was not a SEAL during that period, but was instead in UDT.
This is from Minnesota Public Radio.
"Governor Ventura's office confirmed that Ventura was never a member of the elite Navy SEALs, but he says he did train to be a SEAL, and that his membership in the Navy's Underwater Demolition Teams was practically the same as being a SEAL. But a former SEAL and journalist in San Diego says the UDT's were notthe same as SEALs during Vietnam, and he says Ventura is taking credit for the valor of others.
THE GOVERNOR'S NAVY PAST resurfaced in the last few days after an article in the San Diego "Reader" accused Ventura of "pretending" to be a SEAL, the legendary elite Navy frogmen whose name stands for "Sea Air Land" teams. The article cites evidence that Ventura was in the Underwater Demolition Teams, the UDTs, a separate group that saw less combat, and took fewer casualties.
Ventura's spokesman, John Wodele, confirms Ventura was in the UDT's, and he says the Governor has never tried to convince people otherwise.
Wodele: If you travel with the governor and spend any amount of time with him, he is very forthcoming and accurate in terms of his relationship with the United States Navy. He talks about the fact that he was in the Underwater Demolition Team. In fact, he has corrected me in the past.
Ventura's speeches and interviews reveal a man who rarely says, point-blank, "I was a SEAL." Instead, he refers to his Basic Underwater Demolition and SEALS training.
Ventura: I can always look back to my Navy SEAL training when the going gets tough!
Or he talks about other idiosyncrasies common to both SEALs and UDTs.
Ventura: Hoo-yah?
Eichten: Yeah.
Ventura: That's a greeting. That's an inner-circle greeting of all navy frogmen and navy SEALs and all special forces in the navy community.
He also lets other people call him a SEAL, without correcting them.
Interviewer: You had been a Navy SEAL before becoming a wrestler. What's the difference between the kind of body of a Navy SEAL and a wrestler?
Ventura: Oh, much much different. I view it this way: When I was a wrestler, I could pick up buildings. When I was a SEAL, I could scale them.
Still, at other times, Ventura seems to tip-toe around the distinction. The chapter in his autobiography entitled "Navy SEALS" emphasizes the rigors of SEAL training, which the UDT's shared, and it implies he was a SEAL by describing proud SEAL traditions such as not wearing underwear. But he does not unambiguously claim to have been one of the SEAL elite.
Even the vanity license plate on Ventura's Porsche hedges the issue, it reads: UDTSEAL.
Spokesman John Wodele says it's acceptable for Ventura to use SEAL as short-hand for what he was, especially since the UDT's and SEALs merged in 1983, after Ventura left the service.
The Vietnam SEAL veteran who wrote the San Diego Reader article says the distinction does matter. Bill Salisbury says SEALs took bigger risks, and experienced worse casualties, than the UDTs.
Salisbury: We know what it's like to be in Vietnam as a SEAL. We know the terror you have to face day-in and day-out. And for somebody that spent most of his time floating around on a ship in the South China Sea to call himself a SEAL, we don't take that very well.
Ventura makes frequent reference to the ardors of SEAL training, but he does not talk about what kind of combat, if any, he saw in Vietnam. His standard line is that he's sworn to secrecy, a position Wodele echoes.
Wodele: Specific duties and responsibilities that he had while in Southeast Asia are something that was classified in nature, and not to be talked about.
Holman: Ha! There's so many books written by SEALS; if that were the truth. That's just so bogus."
jen63
(813 posts)and ask them if members of UDT are considered SEALS. They will tell you that they certainly are.
braddy
(3,585 posts)hunting men in Vietnam. He was not on a SEAL team, not In Vietnam, and never in combat, he was a Vietnam Era vet who was UDT, and never went to Vietnam, and years later, the Navy ended UDT, and allow them to mix their service with SEALs since they share the same lineage.
Ventura is a fake "hunter of men", Chris Kyle is the real deal.
jen63
(813 posts)liar. I take whatever he had written with a grain of salt. True Navy SEALS fly under the radar and are loathe to talk about their jobs. The Navy certainly missed this one. UDT was an off shoot of the Frogmen of WWII, they are also considered SEALS.
braddy
(3,585 posts)never took SEAL training after BUD/S, nor served as a SEAL on SEAL missions, and instead served in UDT.
Which one of those do you deny?
jen63
(813 posts)as UDT were already considered SEALS. UDT is one of the most dangerous jobs in the Navy. I think that he's proved his worth. What do you think BUD/s is? Seems you need to do some research into the UDT and how the Navy classifies them. Up until recently, the fact that the UDT and SEALS missions were denied; especially Team 6, shows how ignorant you are as to what these Sailors actually do. I would suggest some research on your part. Just because Ventura didn't "serve" in Vietnam, doesn't mean that he actually didn't. It's called plausible deniability. They are heavily involved in blackops and until OBL was killed, you didn't hear much about the SEALS, except for the fact that they were the most elite fighting force in our military. Keep up the lies, a la Chris Kyle. Any one who believes that the government sent him to pick off looters after Katrina, needs to have their tinfoil hats examined.
braddy
(3,585 posts)Vietnam service, , "stolen valor" Ventura didn't serve in Vietnam and has admitted it, , Ventura did not serve in Vietnam, but he sure has tried to convince people he did.
Why do you keep pretending that he did?
""Ventura never completed the extra 26 weeks of training to become a SEAL""
Ventura "claimed that the blood clots were a result of his exposure to Agent Orange during his time in Vietnam."
" "until you have hunted man, you haven't hunted yet."
"The Governor's office confirms that Ventura was a UDT member and not a Navy SEAL, but argues that because the two entities merged under the SEAL banner in 1983, UDT's can now refer to themselves as SEALs. However, spokesman John Wodele said Ventura "is very forthcoming and accurate in terms of his relationship with the U.S. Navy. He talks about the fact that he was in the Underwater Demolition Team. In fact, he has corrected me in the past." Cursor's examination of print interviews and broadcast transcripts finds that Ventura consistently refers to himself as a Navy SEAL, seldom explaining the distinction between SEAL and UDT"
Wiki-"In January 2002, Ventura, who never specifically stated whether he fought in Vietnam, disclosed that he had not seen combat. He was stationed at Subic Bay in the Philippines, and for this he received the Vietnam Service Medal, given to all military personnel who supported the war effort even though stationed outside South Vietnam."
jen63
(813 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)
braddy
(3,585 posts)he was a jerk, or an imperfect hero, or that sniping seems bad to them and their war fantasies, or that they just hated war, but this demonizing of the man has become white hot in the last few days.
The guy was a blue collar man, an enlisted man, a SEAL who went to war and was great at it, and he is being turned into some sort Freddy Kruger monster.
Carlos Hathcock never had to endure this, although he devoted his life to sniping and creating more snipers, and no one ever even heard of the man who held our sniping record before Chris Kyle, "Adelbert F. Waldron".
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)You forgot the bit about Kyle alleging he killed American civilians during a disaster. 
Please be creative when you rationalize that-- I'm looking forward to the color and imagination it will require....
jen63
(813 posts)being car jacked in Texas. He supposedly killed the car jackers. There is absolutely no evidence that this incident actually happened. Mr. Kyle had psychological problems, which isn't surprising. Somehow all the psychological tests given to SEALS missed this one. The majority of SEALS won't say a word about their missions and don't need publicity for what they've done for our country. They are taught to keep it to themselves. Some how, thousands of SEALS manage to do this. There are only a few who feel the need to go public with what they've done. IMO, the one's who don't tell their "war stories" are the real heroes, who want no public accolades for what they've done.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts) DesertDawg
(66 posts)The guys who ARE SEALS, who go out of their way to EXPOSE fake SEALS, as well as many many SEALS all are fine with Ventura using the title. He completed the Training, he earned his stripes. And yes, he served in Vietnam. You seem to be tossing around alot of Neocon talking points in your hero worship of Chris Liar. Interesting....
braddy
(3,585 posts)Wiki-[Ventura] took a screening test at boot camp to qualify for...Basic Underwater Demolition/seal (buds/s) training...Those who completed bud/s, when [Ventura] was in training, were sent to either a seal or an underwater demolition team. Graduation did not, however, authorize the trainee to call himself a seal or a udt frogman. He had to first successfully complete a six-month probationary period in the Teams.[116]
Although Ventura underwent UDT training, he never attempted the additional 26-week SEAL Qualification Training. On completion of his BUD/S training, Ventura was assigned to a UDT team. In 1983, eight years after Ventura left the Navy, the UDTs were disbanded and those operators were retrained and retasked as SEALs.[115]
Some argue that since Ventura's BUD/S training was common to UDTs and SEALs, and the work of UDTs and SEALs was similar, he is entitled to call himself a SEAL in all but name, but others disagree and hold the view expressed by Salisbury.
Responding to the controversy, Governor Ventura's office confirmed that Ventura was a member of the UDT. His spokesman stated that Ventura has never tried to convince people otherwise.[12] Ventura stated, "Today we refer to all of us as SEALs, that's all it is", and dismissed the accusations of lying about being a SEAL as "much ado about nothing".
braddy
(3,585 posts)operated for decades at the same time as UDT operated.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)"All SEALs came from the Navy's Underwater Demolition Teams, who had already gained extensive experience in commando warfare in Korea"
"Formed entirely with personnel from UDTs, the SEALs mission was to conduct counter guerilla warfare and clandestine operations in maritime and riverine environments.[7] Men of the newly formed SEAL Teams were trained in such unconventional areas as hand-to-hand combat, high-altitude parachuting, demolitions, and foreign languages. The SEALs attended Underwater Demolition Team replacement training and they spent some time training in UDTs. Upon making it to a SEAL team, they would undergo a SEAL Basic Indoctrination (SBI) training class at Camp Kerry in the Cuyamaca Mountains. After SBI training class, they would enter a platoon and conduct platoon training."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs
Ventura knows a damn sight more about it than you guys do. Being there at the foundation.
Oh, and Kennedy didn't create the SEALs.
"Some people erroneously credit President Kennedy with creating the Navy SEALs. His announcement was actually only a formal acknowledgement of a process that had been under way since Korea"
jen63
(813 posts)Navy SEALS with the blessing of the Navy. They were the precursors to the SEALS and are considered SEALS by the Navy.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Either way, he talked shit about Ventura and defamed him for no good reason.
braddy
(3,585 posts)early SEALs, Ventura never served on a SEAL team, although SEALs existed.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)proven in a court of law. You can argue the minutae all you want. It doesn't change the fact that he defamed Ventura and it was proven that he did in a court of law.
braddy
(3,585 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)"Navy SEAL History". SOFREP Inc. Retrieved 12 May 2013.
Watson, James (1997). Walking Point: The Experience of a Founding Member of the Elite Navy SEALs. New York, New York: William Morrow & Co. ISBN 0688143024.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs
The first two teams were formed in January 1962 and stationed on both US coasts... Formed entirely with personnel from UDTs, the SEALs mission was to conduct counter guerilla warfare and clandestine operations in maritime and riverine environments.... The SEALs attended Underwater Demolition Team replacement training and they spent some time training in UDTs. Upon making it to a SEAL team, they would undergo a SEAL Basic Indoctrination (SBI) training class at Camp Kerry in the Cuyamaca Mountains. After SBI training class, they would enter a platoon and conduct platoon training.
US Navy Videos. Navy.mil. Retrieved on 2014-05-24.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs
jen63
(813 posts)by the Navy. Your facts are wrong. UDT was the precursor to the SEALS, and are considered as such.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)He also claimed to have picked off innocent people during Katrina. A lying braggart, indeed.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)
MineralMan
(146,306 posts)I could not deliberately kill anyone at long distance like that. Frankly, I do not want to be around someone who could.
Perhaps we need snipers during war time. I don't know, frankly. I couldn't do that, though. It would take a detachment that I could never muster up in myself. For me, being able to be a sniper is a serious character flaw.
braddy
(3,585 posts)responsibility of the kill, and largely because not everyone has the courage to operate behind enemy lines, or out in the forward 'no man's land', of areas in conflict.
Being a top level sniper is a very elite calling, and few can make up the whole package, it is far more than merely the shooting.
MineralMan
(146,306 posts)I do not like the type of person who could do that job, and want to stay far from them. Truly.
braddy
(3,585 posts)
delrem
(9,688 posts)gag
sounds like war porn/necrophilia, and not at all wholesome.
I wouldn't want to be in the same room, or building, with people who think like that, who use those terms.
braddy
(3,585 posts)and the personal responsibility of having to make the decision to kill that individual, no one said anything about it being wholesome or unwholesome.
You can dislike it or disapprove of it without pretending that the words are wrong to use when searching for a description.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)psycho that is.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Their language is determined by their wants and dreams.
Very sick, indeed.
braddy
(3,585 posts)perhaps you can also fill them and vets in on why they shouldn't like Chesty Puller.
Warriors have a number of people they respect and honor, that you might not understand.
Brother Buzz
(36,427 posts)Jack Reacher: There are four types of people who join the military. For some, it's family trade. Others are patriots, eager to serve. Next you have those who just need a job. Than there's the kind who want the legal means of killing other people.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)Those of us who were there because somebody determined that we should be there, whether or not we wanted to.
Brother Buzz
(36,427 posts)dilby
(2,273 posts)That is the gist of what I understand from reading most of the views on Chris Kyle. Me personally, yeah it was an illegal war but if he would not have been doing his job then more Americans would have come home in body bags. And as much as I hated the War in Iraq it did not change that I did not want Americans dying for it.
Bandit
(21,475 posts)And they should not have brought mass mayhem to the country including the killing of women and children in every city they visited.
Truth.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)volunteered to go to that illegal war.
we'd much rather that Iraqis died, even though we invaded their asses and overthrew their government.
B2G
(9,766 posts)I just don't view him as the satan some here do.
Iggo
(47,552 posts)...or he told the truth about murdering 30 people after Katrina.
View him how you want to view him.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)tammywammy
(26,582 posts)
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)like a guy that is mentally healthy at all.
Was a S.F. Sniper during Vietnam. Drafted into the Military he had an eagle eye thanks to growing up in the country hunting his own food. Recruited into the mess. I seen the hurt in his eyes every day of my life until he passed away, seen the mental struggle with what he had done in his head and I seen him hope and pray for forgiveness from Christ my whole life.
I've seen the pain it causes, and let me tell you, you don't go around bragging about it or acting proud over it. It's a daily struggle your whole life. Chris Kyle was a mentally unstable bullshit artist, a sociopath with delusions of grandeur. He's not deserving of an ounce of respect over his career of lying.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)My dad was a Green Beret. And a deeply religious man. 
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)A decent human being doesn't go around bragging about it or find it fun.
I'm sorry your dad had to go through that. I hope he finally found peace. 
DesertDawg
(66 posts)His peace only came once he passed away. The mental effects of it all haunted him up until his last day on earth. For the vast majority it does. For the liar wannabes like Kyle it doesn't.
Thank you for the kind words.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Maybe they would talk to other vets, I don't know. But never to me/family.
They sure didn't go around boasting about killing people.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)infantry, or bomber pilots, or anyone who kills on behalf of the US--that's their job. But yeah, this guy has proven to be a self-aggrandizing liar, that is why I'm not really all that interested in seeing the movie.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)There is a whole load of stuff he just plain makes up.
Nyc72dem
(63 posts)These guys didn't ask to be sent there. They did what they had to do. I saw the movie. It was good. He's a hero.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)The reason I don't plan on doing the movie is because he's a liar. Did he shoot people from the Superdome roof? His gas station story that never happened. Jesse Ventura lies.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)That was another big fat whopper. Did you mean to say Jesse Ventura lies? or did you mean Chris Kyle?
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Kyle was a liar.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)and it is an older article, but well worth the read, to see what his mindset was.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs
He and a friend used to play pranks on each other. His friend would put Obama stickers on his truck (he was a Republican) and he would put bumper stickers on his friends vehicle that said "I love black cock." Add all that to his quote (he said "n-- looters"
during Katrina and the guy looks less and less like a hero and more and more like a two bit racist thug.
That plus the fact that he thought it was "fun" plus calling the people he killed "savages" plus the bragging, plus the lying leaves a lot to be desired. I certainly wouldn't see him as a hero. I won't be seeing the movie either. Usually, I will watch war movies, but not when the "protagonist" was SUCH an asshole.
madokie
(51,076 posts)It don't happen that way. I had as good an eye for hitting a target back then but I had no desire to be a sniper. Nor was I asked but If I had I'm sure there would have been a place for me. In other words he became what he was by choice not by force.
ETA: fuck him
B2G
(9,766 posts)and would shoot anyone near him with a weapon in a heartbeat, right?
And you would support that.
madokie
(51,076 posts)plus when was the last time someone was killed by a sniper protecting the president?
braddy
(3,585 posts)As a vet do you really think that a Special Operations sniper is only a good shot?
madokie
(51,076 posts)even though I helped in training Seals In SERE training. Toughest training a Seal goes through. Ask any one of them that you know they'll tell you. I went though the SERE training to get there, no mercy shown my way, in fact my training was tougher in the fact they wanted to know if I was up to snuff before I joined the trainers ranks after the course.. I know what the training is like from both sides, as a student and as an instructor
No man becomes a sniper that doesn't want to be one, period. Case closed
braddy
(3,585 posts)like the one we are discussing, but that you didn't want to, which is incredible internet puffery, you then reinforce it by claiming that you were tougher as a SERE trainer than the SEALs in the course, you weren't Special Operations yourself were you?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)call snipers "beloved".
braddy
(3,585 posts)military man?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)language there's only one other explanation
braddy
(3,585 posts)
alarimer
(16,245 posts)He lied repeatedly and quite extravagantly in his "autobiography". He (his estate) loss a defamation suit to Jesse Ventura. He claimed to have killed many "looters" in the aftermath of Katrina, none of which actually happened. All of these lies pretty much calls into question everything else about.
I really hate glorifying a lying psychopath.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)After Katrina?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Interpreting mere criticism as demonization illustrates the first critical flaw in an irrational premise.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)There is no other way to defend this monstrosity. Either the war or the media's selection of its greatest warrior.
Lex
(34,108 posts)" . . . simply did what he was put there to do by our government and did it well. "
edhopper
(33,576 posts)exactly.
Would people here say the same if he were german and the people he shot were french?
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)If it wasn't for those asshats, there wouldn't have been any american sniper and Tammy Duckworth wouldn't have been horribly injured.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)He bragged about killing 34 n--- looters.
I served, went to deployment and I say he is a lying sociopath.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Signing up voluntarily with a military that destroys a far-away country. Going there and murdering 160 people. Producing a memoir about how good it was. Turned into a hero by the same media machine that justified the war of aggression in the first place.
"Venom." Go tell it to the dead Iraqis.
His idea of PTSD treatment was to take someone to the gun range. What happened is little surprise. If he was just Joe Bozo and not American Warrior, many of the people singing praiss for this mass murderer would be joking about the Darwin Awards.
lame54
(35,290 posts)i've yet to see it - but i will - and i will form my own opinion
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)I saw the propaganda campaign, which I did not solicit, and which is omnipresent, and which will reach many times more people than the movie. It has a clear political message. This is very easy to understand, so please don't pretend you don't understand it.
The propaganda is separate from whatever the movie may be (based on trailers: maudlin crap purporting to show how this mass murderer suffered while he murdered all those people, and inspired a nation, because he was just doing his Amerikan duty).
lame54
(35,290 posts)sounds like it lived up to everything you pre-hated about it
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)
hunter
(38,311 posts)He told the Navy straight-up he wasn't going to shoot anybody. So they sent him out to be a guinea pig in nuclear weapons testing.
My dad was a Army clerk, similar to "Radar" of Hollywood's MASH I imagine, but taller. He just missed service in Korea.
Neither of my grandfathers shot anyone in World War II. One was an Army Air Force officer who didn't fly (and he was later an engineer for the Apollo Moon landings, which is curious in some ways related to German rocket science...) and my other grandfather was a Conscientious Objector who was given a choice of prison or building Liberty and Victory ships, so he built ships.
My brother has a young in-law who was sent to Iraq. He didn't want to shoot anyone either, so they put him to work recovering dead U.S. servicemen, many of them ripped to pieces by improvised explosive devices. The kid is one of the most messed up veterans I've ever met, and he was ejected from service with a dishonorable discharge before his third tour for smoking pot, which was his way of dealing with the PTSD.
I guess they were all warriors of some use to the U.S. military machine, but imagine a world where everyone on both sides pushes back against the war machines as best they can.
Yeah, you do what you do in rough situations, when you have no choice, but it's pretty clear to me the U.S. military tapped into something that was already there in Chris Kyle and he thoroughly enjoyed the notoriety, so much so as to fabricate stories.
I have another in-law, and also a former employer, who both did wretched and horrible things in Korea and Viet Nam, but they don't talk about it and they are both now anti-war activists who were very vocal in their opposition to war in Iraq.
Some "players" in these "games" are worthy of derision, especially those who do not leave the "game" when they are no longer obligated in any way to "play."
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)and an unwillingness to lionize Chris Kyle is not demonization
braddy
(3,585 posts)on his head covers that part.
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)mordant humor and the blackest of ironies, I guess that I am also a fan. Thanks for the sardonic chuckles, Chris!)
edhopper
(33,576 posts)from "not just doing his job" and "no need to demonize"
to "clearly a hero".
Really did the Iron Cross make German soldiers "clearly heroes"?
You've just lost the argument IMO.
braddy
(3,585 posts)edhopper
(33,576 posts)depends on who is giving it and why.
Context matters.
You want to idolize him for killing children in an illegal war, go ahead.
braddy
(3,585 posts)award the Silver Star, Kyle earned 2 of those, along with his Bronze Stars.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)Who got the Iron Cross heroes?
braddy
(3,585 posts)I assume the German Army has a system for awarding medals and decorations for battlefield heroism, all armies do.
The United States military has it's won awards and how it defines heroism, why are you so interested in the German Army and it's awards for battlefield valor, can't you just google it on your own?
edhopper
(33,576 posts)I don't have time to explain the comparison.
braddy
(3,585 posts)But 2 Silver Stars and 5 Bronze Stars for valor, says a lot to veterans and military people, and to those who respect them.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)I don't believe you didn't understand what the poster was asking and why.
the Nazis gave medals for bravery and heroism too, and so has every tinpot dictator in history. medals mean shit.
braddy
(3,585 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)hey, you were wrong about kennedy starting the seals, wrong about the relationship between the seals and the UDT, wrong about jesse ventura....
you kinda remind me of chris kyle.
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)Erich Hartmann was one of the all time fighter Aces..
He flew 1,404 combat missions and participated in aerial combat on 825 separate occasions. He was credited with, shooting down 352 aircraft while serving with the Luftwaffe. During the course of his career, Hartmann was forced to crash-land his damaged fighter 14 times due to damage received from parts of enemy aircraft he had just shot down or mechanical failure.
Kurt Knispel was the highest scoring tank ace of World War II with a total of 168 confirmed tank kills.
Though he was recommended for it four times, Knispel never received the coveted Knight's Cross, a standard award for most other World War II German tank aces. Unlike some other commanders, Knispel was not consumed by the pursuit of decorations and did not suffer from a "sore throat", Heer slang for those who lusted after the Knight's Cross. When there were conflicting claims for a destroyed enemy tank, Knispel always stepped back, always willing to credit success to someone else.
Knispel's slow promotion is attributed to several conflicts with higher Nazi authorities (for instance, he assaulted an Einsatzgruppen officer whom he saw mistreating Soviet POWs) and a perceived view by some historians of his general lack of military bearing, sporting a goatee and hair longer than regulations.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)one can look at it that way.
I do have a problem glorifying what he did, especially if done without the context of this war.
I also think there is a long distance between not demonizing him and idolizing him.
And under your criteria, the Charlie Hedbo killers could be seen as heroes.
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)I don't think killing un-armed civilians is quite like dog fighting with other fighter planes or engaging other armed and armored tanks, both crewed by military men.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)who killed civilians
phil89
(1,043 posts)Tour during Katrina. What a hero huh
hunter
(38,311 posts).
braddy
(3,585 posts)own awards and definitions for heroism in combat.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)and not be a "hero."
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)does have definitions for what they consider a hero, and they have awards for that heroism, and Kyle was awarded an armful of them.
Look, you are annoyed at something, you don't like this whole warrior thing, it is foreign to you, but your conversation is getting more and more childish.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)dissentient
(861 posts)But that ended up not being a good defense for their crimes.
In other words, an individual has ultimate responsibility for what they do, and saying you were just following orders doesn't cut it.
tenderfoot
(8,431 posts)It boggles the mind!
Quite frankly, the world can use less people like Chris Kyle. Who brag about killing their own people and writing about it.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Iggo
(47,552 posts)jen63
(813 posts)as another of his lies. There is absolutely no evidence that this ever happened.
tenderfoot
(8,431 posts)that thankfully worked themselves out in the most unexpected and Karmic way.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)This guy made tons of stuff up. Most of his "heroic tales" are impossibilities and bs. It's sad he's dead, and I wouldn't call him a "murderer" like some people here, but I would call him an attention-seeking wannabe after his military years. He was without a doubt a talented and deadly warrior, and probably wanted to inflate his legend even more.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)I'd like to know how someone who killed 150 people could NOT have suffered from PTSD.
Sorry, but the hero worship of a man who was clearly a victim manipulated by the war machine is wrong.
The continuation of lies that made it acceptable to invade Iraq, is WRONG.
Why is it ok if we kill, but not ok if they kill?
The player, in this case, should be viewed with somber reflection keeping in mind the dead. He should not be demonized, nor should he be glorified in a blockbuster shoot-em up movie that makes people want to kill people in the middle east.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)What a ludicrous OP.
Truly, epically, fucking ludicrous.
You should probably research this topic a little further rather than relying on the movie to tell the story. It's clear that's ENTIRELY what you are basing your opinion on.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)Fuck him.
And fuck those who idolize him.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)
riqster
(13,986 posts)Is that a demonizing statement? Nope.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)
Runningdawg
(4,516 posts)and do your duty. If you keep signing up to go again and again and again....you are a cold blooded killer who has no place in a civilized society.
ellenfl
(8,660 posts)isn't that what the germans said after the camps were liberated?
msongs
(67,405 posts)abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)And are OK with it because he was just doing his job? Just following orders?
Pretty sure that argument has been used to justify every human atrocity.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)If he wasn't a liar, then he should have been in prison. From his stories about going to New Orleans after Katrina and shooting "looters" to his "kill every single Iraqi you see", the issue is not with the film but with the actual Chris Kyle as revealed through his own words in his dreadful ghostwritten autobiography. He was not very admirable, nor was he much of a hero.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)Rage has been focused on him. He's s man, nothing more. Besides...it's the Internet...opinions must be declared with authority.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)He did things and didn't do things (as has been pointed out and documented on this thread), and people able to actually be aware of these things.
But don't worry, America finally got the Iraq War movie it wanted and has made it a huge hit. It was always all about us, and we are all completely exonerated now.
Response to Hissyspit (Reply #142)
Inkfreak This message was self-deleted by its author.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)
Tatiana
(14,167 posts)He was attracted to the military because of his personality, IMO. Similarly I think the position of police officer is attractive to certain mentally unstable people who have a need to feel important. The military, in particular, relies upon these types of people because they have very little conscience. They won't question orders. They will believe the message espoused by their superiors.
It is easy to turn such people into killing machines. I don't necessarily blame him (though I do take issue with his lies). We created the monster.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)That supposed to be my fault?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)You are either completely good, or completely bad, Period, paragraph.
If any one fact adds confusion or anything other than complete black or brilliant white, into the dustbin they go.
There are very few exceptions.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Because that's how children play.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)And it USED to be the case that DU was generally sympathetic to veterans with PTSD.
I guess it depends on the veteran.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Feel free to read the rest of the thread. Plenty of explanation of why it's not.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)particularly when the OP has been completely debunked within a few posts.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)That's bullshit.
There's 100,000s, no millions, of people related to or involved with the Iraq War debacle that Eastwood could have made a movie about instead of this bozo.
He could have gotten a movie about Marla Ruzicka made in an instant.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Anyone callous enough to murder that many people without a conscience, is by very definition a demon.
Fuck the game and it's players.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Chris Kyle deserves demonization, and worse.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)I don't get it either.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)So were the cia agents who tortured. Lets not hold anyone accountable for anything....
PM Martin
(2,660 posts)to murder Iraqis. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. What kind of person is this?
Kyle claimed that he went to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and "took out" 30 people without any trial.
There were many bodies found with bullet holes in them.
What kind of person is this?
Chris Kyle is who he is and that is a bad person.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)The ‘unverifiable’ legacy of Chris Kyle, the deadliest sniper in American history
Like the one about how he and a bud went down to New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina and picked off dozens of bad guys. Or the one in which he took on two armed Texans bent on stealing his truck and shot them both dead. Or the one he told about former Minnesota governor Jesse “The Body” Ventura.
It’s a story that Ventura said was false. A Minnesota jury, which on Tuesday awarded Ventura $1.8 million in damages from Kyle’s estate after deliberating for six days, agreed.
The details of the defamatory story: Kyle punched Ventura out at a bar in 2006 after Ventura criticized the Iraq War and said the SEALs “deserve to lose a few.”
So he's either a liar or a serial killer, which is it Clint??? *crickets*
Nice piece of Fox level BS propaganda Eastwood. Why did you leave out the part where your f**kin hero is killing americans???
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Not one of them ever bragged about killing people. Not even Nazis. Not even the Japanese that attacked us at Pearl Harbor.
Anybody that brags about his kill count and so obviously enjoyed killing is a psychotic serial killer. Period!
And he bragged on his kill count in America as well!!!
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Friedrich Nietzsche
And these types are now being held up as American heroes?? I swear there is no hope for this godforsaken country anymore.
Logical
(22,457 posts)In World War II, let's just say the look on my dads face let us know never to ask that question again.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)in New Guinea.
He refused to talk about it...ever.
So I guess he wasn't a "hero" like this braggart, liar/creep supposedly was.
Then again he wasn't judge, jury and executioner to fellow Americans in the aftermath of a hurricane and no filthy rich right wing asshole made a BS movie about him either!
Logical
(22,457 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Ramses
(721 posts)Guy bragged about murdering American civilians here. Sick shit that is being defended. Im even shocked at the depravity here trying to defend this murderous scumbag
bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)I have no doubt that he was a deeply troubled individual, which makes all the hype (much of which he created himself) a symptom of the pathology. I'm sorry he never got the chance to grow beyond it, though we'll never know if that would have happened.
Most of my family served in prior wars, my dad, my uncles, my grandfather's brothers. We have a close family and I saw them all regularly growing up. Not once was it ever mentioned how many people anybody killed, or really any war stories at all.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I think the bloodthirsty killer made choices and acted on them, and I feel sympathy for his victims.
bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)Most people are good, and goodness is a fundamental quality of being human. For those that have lost that part of their humanity, there is always the capacity to change.
I don't think that's an unusual perspective. Perhaps being an atheist and not watching television makes it easier?
delrem
(9,688 posts)That doesn't translate into my "hating people" or "believing in God" or "watching tv".
KG
(28,751 posts)Initech
(100,070 posts)But take this into consideration and you will see why he's being demonized.
1. Kyle's job both at home and overseas was to kill people. And he met a rather unfortunate fate at the hands of a former marine struggling with post traumatic stress disorder at a gun range.
2. The claim about just how many people Kyle murdered might have been greatly exaggerated. The truth is we may never know. We probably will never know. The only person who can confirm that is Chris Kyle himself, and he's dead. Even the Department of Defense themselves only confirmed about 160, could not confirm the rest.
3. No one really knows what happened on the roof of the Super Dome. I don't think anyone from the New Orleans police department would confirm or deny that it happened.
4. Let's also not forget that Kyle was sued for slander by Jesse Ventura, only adding to the mystery of what really happened during the war, and his claim.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If he's exemplary of the game being played, there's little to cheer for.
butterfly77
(17,609 posts)worship him? Are we suppose to get down on our Knees and bow down because he murdered some people? The media among others will give him his accolades.
Does everyone in the country have to get on board or pay a penalty for not worshipping him..
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)7 Big Lies 'American Sniper' Is Telling America
There is a backlash against the film's misleading take on sniper Chris Kyle's character.
By Zaid Jilani / AlterNet
January 21, 2015
The film American Sniper, based on the story of the late Navy Seal Chris Kyle, is a box office hit, setting records for an R-rated film released in January. Yet the film, the autobiography of the same name, and the reputation of Chris Kyle are all built on a set of half-truths, myths and outright lies that Hollywood didn't see fit to clear up.
Here are seven lies about Chris Kyle and the story that director Clint Eastwood is telling:
- snip -
3. The Film Portrays Chris Kyle as Tormented By His Actions: Multiple scenes in the movie portray Kyle as haunted by his service. One of the film's earliest reviews praised it for showing the “emotional torment of so many military men and women.” But that torment is completely absent from the book the film is based on. In the book, Kyle refers to everyone he fought as “savage, despicable” evil. He writes, “I only wish I had killed more.” He also writes, “I loved what I did. I still do. If circumstances were different – if my family didn't need me – I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun. I had the time of my life being a SEAL.” On an appearance on Conan O'Brien's show he laughs about accidentally shooting an Iraqi insurgent. He once told a military investigator that he doesn't “shoot people with Korans. I'd like to, but I don't.”
4. The Real Chris Kyle Made Up A Story About Killing Dozens of People In Post-Katrina New Orleans: Kyle claimed that he killed 30 people in the chaos of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, a story Louisiana writer Jarvis DeBerry calls “preposterous." It shows the sort of mentality post-war Kyle had, but the claim doesn't appear in the film.
5. The Real Chris Kyle Fabricated A Story About Killing Two Men Who Tried To Carjack Him In Texas: Kyle told numerous people a story about killing two alleged carjackers in Texas. Reporters tried repeatedly to verify this claim, but no evidence of it exists.