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MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 08:20 PM Jan 2015

So it seems that some people get really, really angry at satire

and parody that they're on the wrong end of.

I've heard that said.

While I'm not a big fan of poking people over spiritual matters, I think we need to realize that when people poke fun at spiritual matters, it's superstition that they're poking at - not spirituality. And poking at superstition is pretty important, because it's the source of so much misery on our planet - perhaps even the source of all of it.

So while I'm not super happy about what Charlie Hebdo produces, I am super happy that they're out there fighting the fight. Ultimately, it's assholes like them that pull humankind forward as we kick, scream and spit. (And at the right moment, politicians jump in front of the camera and take credit for everything.)

A to the assholes, the perilously-crazy people whose work ended the belief that one human can own another, that women can't do what men do, that gay people can't be married, and who did all the other stuff that lurches society forward. Many of you assholes drive me absolutely @#$%ing nuts, but the bigger part of me is glad for it.

Oh, and a tip - if satire or parody make you mad as hell, there's probably something in it that you know is true, but are scared to face. Let's all face our superstitions square-on, laugh at 'em, and move forward together.

113 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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So it seems that some people get really, really angry at satire (Original Post) MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 OP
well said. n/t cali Jan 2015 #1
Not often I agree with you Manny, but K&R. NuclearDem Jan 2015 #2
If'n you throw a rock at a pack of dogs Fumesucker Jan 2015 #3
I don't see any point in intentionally provoking crazy people. Voice for Peace Jan 2015 #53
That's how we used to tell if a dog was a tame pet or something more feral Fumesucker Jan 2015 #56
Very well said Manny. Autumn Jan 2015 #4
there is no shortage of very stupid people, Manny Skittles Jan 2015 #5
You aren't the only one Fumesucker Jan 2015 #38
If we cound turn pure stupidity into clean energy hifiguy Jan 2015 #83
Hell, just harnessing the idiocy of Fox News fans alone would out-power about 1,000 Hoover Dams. Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #94
+1. Every sacred cow needs to be gored from time to time, as far as I'm concerned dissentient Jan 2015 #6
The best hamburgers are made from sacred cows. Half-Century Man Jan 2015 #24
Very good! K&R Ed Suspicious Jan 2015 #7
Yeah, whatever. Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #8
I hope you're taking precautions pscot Jan 2015 #9
I see, so who gets to define whathehell Jan 2015 #10
The more it's defined, MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #12
so if you "just believe without question" it is spirituality? uppityperson Jan 2015 #14
Well... MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #16
The Golden Rule. Beartracks Jan 2015 #47
Sez you.. whathehell Jan 2015 #27
What's the difference? nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #31
The difference is one person's definition whathehell Jan 2015 #62
Time will decide a lot of it... freebrew Jan 2015 #64
well, I ain't paying Dieudonné's bail MisterP Jan 2015 #11
Again, I will weigh in with a personal experience. merrily Jan 2015 #13
Nice adecdote elias49 Jan 2015 #17
The equivalence is lack of true, visceral comprehension of a culture in which one was not raised. merrily Jan 2015 #19
You might find this interesting... elias49 Jan 2015 #25
Yeah. In other parts of the world, I am usually only a tourist and you bet I keep my personal space merrily Jan 2015 #28
Are Yo Momma jokes satire? Parody? MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #58
"Religion is superstition but spirituality isn't." NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #60
Says the person who claims multimillionaires know what it's like to be poor Fumesucker Jan 2015 #63
Actually ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #96
Its analogous to a road and a road map Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #66
A discussion about how you or I ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #103
great post. kwassa Jan 2015 #107
Excellent Post! n/t n2doc Jan 2015 #15
That is well stated. nt el_bryanto Jan 2015 #18
Thank you for a fine post, Manny! countryjake Jan 2015 #20
Kick elias49 Jan 2015 #21
My fellow assholes . . . Jack Rabbit Jan 2015 #22
I see your point, Manny, but Boreal Jan 2015 #23
Is there anything you can publish about the Hopi that would make you fear for your life? oberliner Jan 2015 #29
No, but I hardly think Boreal Jan 2015 #30
Right oberliner Jan 2015 #33
Probably agree with you about that Boreal Jan 2015 #35
that may be true in our current world but plenty of people have been accused of blasphemy etc in Voice for Peace Jan 2015 #54
I don't want to attack anyone's religion or anyone's atheism, though I will attack merrily Jan 2015 #34
Your questions go to my point Boreal Jan 2015 #37
I consider myself an atheist, I'd never talk about religion if the religious would shut up about it Fumesucker Jan 2015 #49
In God we trust Boreal Jan 2015 #51
In my personal life, I rarely mention my atheism. MineralMan Jan 2015 #65
Thank you.. whathehell Jan 2015 #67
The head games people play Boreal Jan 2015 #76
Absolutely...A number of us have been pointing it out for years. whathehell Jan 2015 #110
Very well said Half-Century Man Jan 2015 #26
I hope it's Manischewitz sake MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #40
If I finish the bottle Half-Century Man Jan 2015 #46
Which is why one should stick to Manischewitz MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #57
In my late teens I got down 4/5 of a bottle Half-Century Man Jan 2015 #59
A high school friend of mine drank an entire fifth of vodka MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #93
I prefer the way John Stewart and Colbert use satire. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #32
You might not feel that way if you were a Koch... Desert805 Jan 2015 #43
Humorous satire rarely gets folks as riled up as pornographic and vulgar satire. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #44
Since Charlie Hebdo is neither Desert805 Jan 2015 #45
The cartoons Charlie Hebdo fingrin Jan 2015 #74
The media did tell me about it. Desert805 Jan 2015 #77
Oh please. fingrin Jan 2015 #104
So now Charlie Hebdo has to respect marrying children? Desert805 Jan 2015 #105
Thats not what Im saying fingrin Jan 2015 #111
I don't hold muslims out to be pedophiles-- I was addressing the content of the cartoon, which Desert805 Jan 2015 #112
Free speech can be mean and nasty but we don't have to read it or watch it or agree. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #36
I think a lot of people just have a certain level of outrage MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #39
I see it as a lot of self-righteous bullying. People think they know what goodness is and rhett o rick Jan 2015 #41
Yes, and spirituality should come with an owners manual bhikkhu Jan 2015 #42
kick and rec. nt cwydro Jan 2015 #48
Yes. cwydro Jan 2015 #50
I'll poke fun at "spirituality" as well, especially the kind that fancies itself different from ND-Dem Jan 2015 #52
Satire, when well executed KMOD Jan 2015 #55
Great OP, Manny...you do catch that golden ring sometimes... Surya Gayatri Jan 2015 #61
I love Mad and loved Cracked magazines. L0oniX Jan 2015 #68
that bug drives me nuts. shireen Jan 2015 #70
Some of the best OpEds are right here at DU shireen Jan 2015 #69
News flash, satire is designed to make irrational people angry JayhawkSD Jan 2015 #71
I also have the right to be angered by something that I don't like. F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #72
The offender does not get to determine what the offended ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #73
Indeed, people are offended by many things Fumesucker Jan 2015 #75
I see what you did there Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #79
Actually ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #82
Actually... MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #84
That was desperation talking. As can be seen by the reply that was soundly ignored. Rex Jan 2015 #88
This message was self-deleted by its author Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #85
Notice they do not disagree, but shift away to the OP and not your point. Rex Jan 2015 #87
No but if your offense translates to murder and mayhem then the offender can put the offended TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #78
All of which can be avoided by NOT being an ass ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #81
So as not to offend anyone right? Nice try but total fail on your part. Rex Jan 2015 #86
Nobody has the right NOT to be offended. NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #90
I hope this isn't the case... MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #95
The results of your jury service DeadLetterOffice Jan 2015 #101
No, I put the cutoff responsibility on the murdering motherfucker. TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #109
No, but the "offended"... NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #91
You really believe that ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #97
Yes. NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #98
Okay; but I don't want to live in your world. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #99
You really think you should be able to curb someone else's speech? NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #100
Yes. In that "learning to live with it," means: Desert805 Jan 2015 #102
Responding to your edited post... NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #106
In a word, yes. It's precisely the most offensive speech that must be protected. Flatulo Jan 2015 #113
Don't you think your Unknown Beatle Jan 2015 #80
Good satire should provoke a reaction... SidDithers Jan 2015 #89
K&R for pissing off all the right people! Rex Jan 2015 #92
+ 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! WillyT Jan 2015 #108
 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
53. I don't see any point in intentionally provoking crazy people.
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 11:14 PM
Jan 2015

Certainly would be idiotic to throw a rock at a pack of dogs,
especially if they were really really hungry.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
56. That's how we used to tell if a dog was a tame pet or something more feral
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 11:38 PM
Jan 2015

Act like you're going to throw something at them and if they don't react you know it's someone's pet, the more feral ones will slink away, they've been hit before and don't want any more of it.

The world I grew up in was closer to Tom Sawyer than it was to society today and looking back I'm glad for the experiences it gave me. I know how to tell a squirrel nest from a possum nest (yes they nest in trees), where and how to catch crayfish and a million other things my grandkids have never even heard of, they didn't even know you could skip a stone on the water until I showed them.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
83. If we cound turn pure stupidity into clean energy
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 04:14 PM
Jan 2015

we'd have enough for 100,000 years and warp drive by Memorial Day. And that's just considering the stupidity within the boundaries of the US.

 

dissentient

(861 posts)
6. +1. Every sacred cow needs to be gored from time to time, as far as I'm concerned
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 08:28 PM
Jan 2015

For those that don't like it, tough, that is the price for living in a free society. Sometimes people will do and say things that offend.

pscot

(21,024 posts)
9. I hope you're taking precautions
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 08:45 PM
Jan 2015

to ward against possible attack by irony crazed Hillary supporters. Feelings run high in that camp. Nobody wants to have to make "I am Manny Goldstein" their sig line.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
16. Well...
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:01 PM
Jan 2015

"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion."
- Abraham Lincoln

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."
- Rabbi Hillel

Etc.

Beartracks

(12,809 posts)
47. The Golden Rule.
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:31 PM
Jan 2015

I think, ultimately, that's what it's all about.

Well, that and the hokey pokey.

=======================

freebrew

(1,917 posts)
64. Time will decide a lot of it...
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 11:06 AM
Jan 2015

mythology used to be religion.

And science.
Superstitions vary from person to person, place to place.
There was, for most of them, some reason for it or some coincidental happening that caused the belief.
Others were just unexplained crap that scared people.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
13. Again, I will weigh in with a personal experience.
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 08:55 PM
Jan 2015

I know a lovely Egyptian Muslim man who left Egypt well before the Egyptian Spring to re-settle here permanently. He has been an American citizen for maybe 15 years. Could not be kinder, classier, more elegant, etc. I cannot praise him enough.

One day, he mentioned to me, incredulously, that people here actually joke about moms. No one had used a yo mama joke against him or his mom (who passed away some time after he moved here). So, it was not that he had been personally offended. He just could not believe that Americans joke about someone's mother. To quote him, "People have to be respectful." I have known him for about ten years and on his face was the most negative emotion he'd shown me in all that time.

Obviously, he comes from a very different culture and cannot comprehend our behavior, any more than I can comprehend how jailing people for criticizing the government could be routine and tolerated in Egypt.

Also, just one note: There's spirituality, there's superstition, there's religion, there's mythology and there's distortion of religion. Maybe you believe and, therefore want to say, that superstition, religion and mythology are one and the same. Maybe that is true and maybe it isn't. I try to avoid attacking anyone's religious belief or lack thereof. However, purely from a dictionary definition standpoint, I don't know if you can say accurately that all spirituality is superstition. (Then again, most people attack religion, not spirituality.)

Spirituality is a process of personal transformation, either in accordance with traditional religious ideals, or, increasingly, oriented on subjective experience and psychological growth independently of any specific religious context.





 

elias49

(4,259 posts)
17. Nice adecdote
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:06 PM
Jan 2015

but there's an inequity in comparing Momma talk with jailing people. May I offer that it would be more appropriate to compare Momma talk with what I've heard is apparently a very differing acceptance in the Arab world with regards to personal space. Know what I mean?
Yeah, I guess maybe I'm nit-picking.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
19. The equivalence is lack of true, visceral comprehension of a culture in which one was not raised.
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:13 PM
Jan 2015

It doesn't matter if the things he and I don't understand are equal to each other, which, obviously, they are not.

But no, I am not familiar with the personal space bit.

 

elias49

(4,259 posts)
25. You might find this interesting...
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:22 PM
Jan 2015

esp the 4th paragraph.
But there is a lot more valuable info here. It might be a nice primer for legislators who are prone to run off at the mouth about what they don't understand!

http://www.arab-business-etiquette.com/social-differences-in-the-arab-culture.php

merrily

(45,251 posts)
28. Yeah. In other parts of the world, I am usually only a tourist and you bet I keep my personal space
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:34 PM
Jan 2015

personal. For one thing, I don't want my money or passport to disappear. However, I have had interactions with Arabs abroad and at home without having had my personal space (as I think of it) invaded or being touched. In fact, about once I year, I ask my Egyptian acquaintance if I can give him a hug. He doesn't even extend his hand to shake mine, unless I extend mine first. I have to say, he practices what he expects of others: he could not be more respectful.

What I have noticed is being greeted by Arab females with three air kisses, right, left, right. (or is it left, right, left?). Being more used to two, I used to pull away after the second, but they'd say, "No, three, three, three." It's as though someone is going to fine them if they give me only two kisses!

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
58. Are Yo Momma jokes satire? Parody?
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 12:24 AM
Jan 2015

More like gratuitous troublemaking, in most instances.

In the OP, I tried to point out that religion is superstition but spirituality isn't. In my opinion... spirituality is a feeling that our own spirits are part of a larger spirit; that the Atman is the Brahman, or at least it's a full member. Religion is rules and myths, intended to show the way towards spirituality. Unfortunately I get the feeling that much of it is written by people like the fellow sitting next to me at a coffee shop tonight who was carrying on an animated conversation with himself about perfection and sin, etc.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
60. "Religion is superstition but spirituality isn't."
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 03:25 AM
Jan 2015

You go on to define your opinion as to what constitutes one, and what constitutes the other.

For many, spirituality (just as you have defined it) is often inextricably entwined with their religion. Just as the atheist is not precluded from living an exemplary life without being guided nor bound by adherence to religion, so the religious person is not precluded from having their spirituality guided by - or even inspired by - their religion.

You seem to want to separate them only for the purpose of saying "the two are not the same, and it is okay to ridicule the one I've labelled as "rules and myths".

Whether one draws their sense of "being part of a larger spirit" from their religious beliefs, or from some other source, is beside the point - and neither need be an object of ridicule.

You are free to say whatever you want to say. You don't need anyone's permission - nor do you need to justify what you're saying by designating religious beliefs as "rules and myths" in order to support the "reasoning" behind your need to ridicule others.

What you have offered here is a very simple-minded view of a very complex way of thinking. But that's really what you do best - isn't it?

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
96. Actually ...
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:16 PM
Jan 2015

... I didn't say anything even remotely close to that.

But, hey, if you're one of those people who feels a need to attribute comments to people who never made them, go for it. It's become a popular DU pastime, and it is of no consequence to me whatsoever.

Cosmic Kitten

(3,498 posts)
66. Its analogous to a road and a road map
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 11:56 AM
Jan 2015

Spirituality is living life "on the road"...
the road of life if you will.

Religion is a "road map".
At it's core all religions try to
instruct the follower in "how to live".
a virtuous existence and provides security
of belief about what happens when we die.
(something no one can know)
Often the "how to live" is described in
very dogmatic ways.

It is a very simple matter.
You can live a virtuous life without dogma.
Let your conscience be your guide!

The ridicule you speak of more often comes from
indoctrinated followers of a particular "road map".
Because they know, "they" have the bestest or only
"true" road map, all others are lost, blasphemers,
or some other denigration.
History is filled religious zealots ridiculing non-believers.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
103. A discussion about how you or I ...
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 09:32 PM
Jan 2015

... perceive religion as individuals is beside the point.

What I don't understand is anyone's need to ridicule others' religions. It serves no purpose. It accomplishes nothing. It changes nothing. The only end result possible (or probable) is that it offends, and can be extremely hurtful to those who feel deeply about their faith.

Do you know of any Christian who has stopped believing in their salvation through Christ because someone made fun of their beliefs?

Do you know of any Muslim who has abandoned their faith because someone labeled it "myth" or "superstition"?

Do you know of any Jew who stopped believing in their religion because someone made fun of their kippah, or their "weird" dietary laws?

Do you know of any atheist who suddenly decided to believe in god because they'd been ridiculed for not believing in god?

When it comes to religion - or the choice to not have one at all - no one's mind is changed by ridicule. No one is "enlightened" by being mocked. No one is dissuaded away from personally-held beliefs as the result of being laughed at, or told they are clinging to superstition.

And even if one could be persuaded to abandon their faith due to being ridiculed, what purpose does that serve? Are there bragging rights attached to saying, "Hey, I talked a Catholic into leaving their Church today"? Are there points awarded? Prizes to be won? An awards ceremony at the end of the year?

Having read the many posts on DU the last week on the topic, I see a lot of "well, I have the right to mock other people's faith" - and that's true. But what is the purpose behind it? What is gained? What is the goal? What does anyone who mocks others' beliefs think they are accomplishing? What do such people hope to achieve when it is so obvious that they can achieve nothing - other than offending and/or hurting the feelings of those whose beliefs they mock?

I can't help but wonder what void exists in someone's life that they think will be filled by ridiculing others, when the only possible outcome of doing so is some self-serving (and totally idiotic) sense that they are accomplishing something of merit.

My personal feelings on religion are the same as they are on other issues: If you don't condone same-sex relationships, don't enter into one. If you think abortion is murder, don't have one. If you think religion is nonsense, don't practice one.

I see little difference between those who think they can convert non-believers into believers and those who think they can convert believers into non-believers by use of the same tactics - ridicule, mockery, scorn, derision, and what amounts to a declaration that "what I believe or don't believe is the only way to go - all others are subject to ridicule."

The narrow-mindedness displayed on DU on this topic has been, sad to say, not surprising in the least. It is amusing - if nothing else - to see the same posters who decry the belittlement of gays/lesbians based on their sexuality, the derision of people based on their race or ethnicity, or the mockery of people based on their poor financial circumstances, stand up and cheer the idea that people of religious faith are fair game in a mud-slinging contest that accomplishes nothing of value.







countryjake

(8,554 posts)
20. Thank you for a fine post, Manny!
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:17 PM
Jan 2015


I prefer to call it supernatural imaginings rather than superstition, since there are lots of superstitions that are simply off-the-wall and haven't anything to do with any silly tenets, at all. My Grandpa always kept a buckeye in his hip pocket, supposedly to ward off the rheumatism from which he suffered. When I became an adult and the pain of some pretty hard labor began to afflict me, too, I also took to keeping buckeyes close. I soon learned that buckeyes or not, I hurt, and that silly superstition, along with any other, would no longer be allowed to afflict my thinking.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
22. My fellow assholes . . .
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:21 PM
Jan 2015

Let's take down the right wing morons in business and government

Remember . . .
[center]


[font size="6" color="red"]Big Brothers
are watching you
[/font]
[/center]
[font size="1"]Image from American University

 

Boreal

(725 posts)
23. I see your point, Manny, but
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:21 PM
Jan 2015

can't fully agree because you cannot presume to know what's in the mind of the satirist or whomever is expressing the opinion (unless they explicitly state it). There are PLENTY of people who attack the notion of spirituality (not just organized religion) because they don't believe we are spiritual beings. While I disagree with them, I support their right to express their opinions.

Here's something I've wondered: How would DU react to some satire or outright bashing of Native Americans and their spiritual beliefs? I often see the term "sky god" used by those who attack believers and the Hopi believe they came from star people from "out there". While I support ALL freedom of speech and see others defending the right to attack religious or spiritual beliefs, would ridiculing Native American beliefs go over well here? Just curious what you think.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
29. Is there anything you can publish about the Hopi that would make you fear for your life?
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:38 PM
Jan 2015

Can the same be said for Islam?

 

Boreal

(725 posts)
30. No, but I hardly think
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:48 PM
Jan 2015

the criteria most use who attack religion, or those who believe in a creator, is fear for one's life. Some people just genuinely despise any ideas about a higher power/God/creator/whatever and get spitting mad about it. Nothing to do with fearing for their lives.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
33. Right
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:52 PM
Jan 2015

But I'm saying, there tends to be significant hesitation in mocking the prophet of Islam as opposed to mocking other prophets from Joseph Smith to Jesus to L Ron Hubbard.

 

Boreal

(725 posts)
35. Probably agree with you about that
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:56 PM
Jan 2015

I see lots of Jesus jokes and gifs from people who would never do the same with Mohammed. Not sure if that's fear of repercussions or out of political correctness.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
54. that may be true in our current world but plenty of people have been accused of blasphemy etc in
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 11:20 PM
Jan 2015

Christianity and through history, killed for it. Not gently or mercifully, either.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
34. I don't want to attack anyone's religion or anyone's atheism, though I will attack
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:55 PM
Jan 2015

things like using religion to inflict pain on others.


That said, I think you have to look at the totality of the circumstances when you think different standards are being applied.

First, is the religion in the majority in this country, or is it in the minority? In America, we tend to operate in the belief that the majority is fair game because the majority can both protect itself and inflict a lot of damage on the minority. It's when the majority is picking on a minority that the protective instinct/obligation is activated.

Second, is it really only the religion being attacked, or is it also at least partly about the group with which this religion is associated? For example, I don't see or hear a lot of bashing of Philippine or Indonesian Muslims by DUers. Not yet, anyway. But I do hear a lot about the Arab brand of Islam.

Third, is it really the religion being attacked, or is it, for example, certain behavior of televangelists or of the Vatican, etc.? Or is it hypocrisy that's being attacked? Or the tendency of some religious groups and leaders to want to impose their religious beliefs on the entire country by making them secular laws?

Feelings may get hurt, no matter what, but to my mind the kinds of distinctions I've suggested are important when people are looking at whether different standards are being applied.

JMO



 

Boreal

(725 posts)
37. Your questions go to my point
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:07 PM
Jan 2015

that the motivations of those doing the criticism or attacking may be different. Some people just don't like organized religion but are okay with believing in God (or whatever term applies for a higher power). Others, like Marxists and/or atheists detest any belief in man as a spiritual being and attack that.

I really don't agree that it's somehow legitimate criticism to attack the dominant religious or spiritual culture simply because it's dominant. I support anyone's right to do it but don't buy that argument.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
49. I consider myself an atheist, I'd never talk about religion if the religious would shut up about it
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:37 PM
Jan 2015

Don't even mind seeing churches on every other street corner, strip mall and warehouse space (yes I know where a church is in an industrial park). But having a religious message on the very money in my pocket rubs me the wrong way as does having people come to my door attempting to convert me to their particular brand of Christianity.

When you are raised with the idea that religion is a private thing between you and God then even if you lose the religion it's hard to lose the distaste for blatant open religiosity. It's almost like watching people engaging in public sexual behavior, it doesn't really hurt me but it definitely makes me uncomfortable when it goes beyond a certain point. I sometimes even end up getting embarrassed for people who carry on to ridiculous lengths about their religion, rather the way you would for someone whose fly is unzipped or trailing soiled toilet paper on their shoe..

Also many Christians the moment they find out I am an atheist (almost always from someone other than me) start with the most pathetic apologetics, throwing things I learned as a child at me as if they are some grand revelation they are gifting me with when in reality I usually know more about their faith than they do. It's annoying to be retirement age and still have people treating me like an ignorant child because I don't share their belief in mythology.

 

Boreal

(725 posts)
51. In God we trust
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:55 PM
Jan 2015

Is probably the money God of the Illuminati banksters, lol. I'm not crazy about the all seeing eye and the pyramid on there. either. That's all Masonic shit - another cult but with serious power.

I hear you, though, about the proselytizers. I think people do that because they are insecure in their beliefs. The more people they can win over to their POV, the more they validate themselves. I do believe in a Creator but feel no need to convince others of my personal beliefs.

MineralMan

(146,288 posts)
65. In my personal life, I rarely mention my atheism.
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 11:55 AM
Jan 2015

If asked, I will tell someone that I'm an atheist, but only if asked directly about my religion. I've never really considered it to be anything unusual. By the same token, I never ask anyone else about their beliefs. If they volunteer that information, I treat it as just another piece of information. If invited to a church for a funeral or wedding, I'll gladly attend and be respectful of the religious beliefs of others.

I just don't consider religion to be that interesting. I find people's professions and political views to be much more interesting.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
67. Thank you..
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 12:10 PM
Jan 2015

You make an excellent point regarding the selective nature here, of who is "rightfully"

satirized, and who must be protected as victims of "cultural insensitivity".

The hypocrisy and double standards displayed can be quite remarkable.
























 

Boreal

(725 posts)
76. The head games people play
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 02:43 PM
Jan 2015

in order to justify their inconsistencies and double standards is downright Orwellian. You should look at the crazy conversation I was engaged in here about free speech and Charlie Hebdo. You see, as your comment infers, political correctness creates dishonesty and doublethink. In that nutty conversation I had people trying to tell me it was okay for France to prosecute Brigitte Bardot, for her comments about Muslims, while Charlie Hebdo should not be because their comments are about Islam. haha! Insanity.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
110. Absolutely...A number of us have been pointing it out for years.
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 08:37 AM
Jan 2015

usually to no avail. Hopefully, things are changing.

I see that you posted on the OP by NanceGreggs.

She nails it, in my opinion.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
40. I hope it's Manischewitz sake
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:16 PM
Jan 2015

Or the LORD will smite you with an ass's jawbone for using a Hebrew toast with an unclean fermented beverage.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
93. A high school friend of mine drank an entire fifth of vodka
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:01 PM
Jan 2015

Last edited Thu Jan 15, 2015, 08:43 PM - Edit history (1)

one night.

He survived.

Now a very, very, very important doctor.

Given your feat, you should at least be CEO of an auto company by now.

Woof!

Desert805

(392 posts)
43. You might not feel that way if you were a Koch...
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:22 PM
Jan 2015

And I'm sure Jon & Stephen don't worry about being killed for it, either.

fingrin

(120 posts)
74. The cartoons Charlie Hebdo
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 01:43 PM
Jan 2015

and the media wont tell you about



As a Non Muslim I find this offensive. The implication being Mohammed was into beastality with an unclean animal and his wife was a prostitute. Free speech, yes. Offensive and morally wrong, certainly.
The cartoonist scored a hat trick with this cartoon.

Dont believe the media narrative that it was just harmless satire because if it was, those 17 people would still be alive.
Free speech is a right and shall always remain so, but it also comes with responsibility. The responsibility for people to stand up and say that this is wrong and offensive.

Desert805

(392 posts)
77. The media did tell me about it.
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 02:58 PM
Jan 2015

I don't find it offensive-- that's your opinion. I think it's humorous in the Family Guy style.

Without over-explaining a silly cartoon, I give you this, which it is referencing, as found on wikipedia:

"The majority of traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, or ten according to Ibn Hisham,[7] when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina;[8][9][10]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha



What's more offensive to you-- silly drawings, or child wives?

fingrin

(120 posts)
104. Oh please.
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 11:11 PM
Jan 2015

Child marriage was not uncommon in many places at the time, Arabia included. It often served political purposes, and Aisha's marriage to Muhammad would have had a political connotation.[22]

Child marriage was so common even EUROPEAN ROYALTY participated in the practice. To slander a religion without historical context is just a red herring designed to cause hurt. Strangely enough we don't hear our lily white ancestors being labeled pedophiles only Muslims. Why is that?
Yes child marriage is unacceptable in modern times but again put into context it was a common practice in Muhammad's time.

Desert805

(392 posts)
105. So now Charlie Hebdo has to respect marrying children?
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 11:17 PM
Jan 2015

Please yourself.

Anyway, that's the subject of the cartoon you (pretended you?) didn't understand-- though now you're going to take me to school on the subject.



**edited to address: yes. pedophilia sucks, past, present and future. i would add, "don't you agree?" But I'm trying not to be snarky.




fingrin

(120 posts)
111. Thats not what Im saying
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:05 PM
Jan 2015

I guess my point is Judging others and slandering their religion based on Modern morals without taking into consideration history is wrong.

"In ancient Athens and Rome, the modern concept of paedophilia did not exist as such, so the question would be meaningless to an Athenian if you asked him".

Again what is the point of Slandering a religion when the only real purpose is to cause harm, that is not "Satire"
It is pretty hard to make a judgement on a crime like Pedophilia before the word even existed, again context and history are important.

"Pubescent girls could be married off to adult men, which is still common practice in many parts of the world. Until ca. 1800, a very common minimum age of marriage in Europe was 12 years old. Only after 1800 was this gradually raised in the West".

As for your comment of "you're going to take me to school on the subject" that was not my intention.
I was merely exercising my right to free speech, which you chose to reply to. (your right)

Peace.

Desert805

(392 posts)
112. I don't hold muslims out to be pedophiles-- I was addressing the content of the cartoon, which
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 03:47 PM
Jan 2015

you didn't seem to get.

Personally, I find many things about current day Islam that are well deserving of criticism & find zero need to go back and rag on Mohamed.

I could say the same thing about many religions, political beliefs or values, but what's in the news today, what these conversations are about, is the violence in Paris. Which wasn't committed by radical Hindus, Christian crusaders, Pat Robertson, or a host of other shitty folks people have been offering up as some sort of (to my mind) reason I can't be offended myself.

Have a nice weekend.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
36. Free speech can be mean and nasty but we don't have to read it or watch it or agree.
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:59 PM
Jan 2015

The problems comes when people try to decide what can be published and what can't. We do have libel and slander laws, but other than that, it's very hard to tell what is going to offend who. An OP earlier today tried to claim that Charlie Hebdo blasphemed by one means or another. Writers and cartoonists can't worry about what might offend who. It's an impossible to restrict them and we don't want to. There are thousands of different views as to what is blasphemy and what isn't.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
39. I think a lot of people just have a certain level of outrage
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:12 PM
Jan 2015

and they do what they need to do to maintain that level.

Some people need a lot of outrage. They'll find outrage in everything - the gyrations they go through to find terrible transgressions everywhere is a wonder to behold.

Others aren't outraged by anything, they'll smile amicably while being lowered into a wood chipper.

Human nature is pretty interesting.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
41. I see it as a lot of self-righteous bullying. People think they know what goodness is and
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:19 PM
Jan 2015

that gives them the right (ends justify the means) to bully those that might not agree.

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
42. Yes, and spirituality should come with an owners manual
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:21 PM
Jan 2015

...if being spiritual leads to your being mad as hell at other people, you're probably doing it wrong.

Of course, the bible (and so forth) could be taken for "owner's manuals" for organized religion, largely unread or ignored.

 

ND-Dem

(4,571 posts)
52. I'll poke fun at "spirituality" as well, especially the kind that fancies itself different from
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:58 PM
Jan 2015

& superior to "religion" practiced by those who don't live in upper-class zip codes.

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
55. Satire, when well executed
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 11:34 PM
Jan 2015

should be somewhat shocking. It elicits emotions that force you to have immediate consideration on the subject.

It can easily inspire anger as well. Many, when angered, will not give rational consideration, they will just simply react strongly. After the anger subsides, rational thought returns.

Some people are uncomfortable with strong emotions. Those are probably the same people who are uncomfortable with satire.

Different strokes and all.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
61. Great OP, Manny...you do catch that golden ring sometimes...
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 04:06 AM
Jan 2015
"Oh, and a tip - if satire or parody make you mad as hell, there's probably something in it that you know is true, but are scared to face."

Words worthy of an Enlightenment philosopher in the French tradition.

shireen

(8,333 posts)
69. Some of the best OpEds are right here at DU
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 12:50 PM
Jan 2015

People like you put editorials by the pompous sages of many major publications to shame. Your OP was thoughtful, succinct, and fun to read. Thanks!


 

JayhawkSD

(3,163 posts)
71. News flash, satire is designed to make irrational people angry
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 01:06 PM
Jan 2015

Satire angers people more than does direct serious criticism; that is the specific purpose of satire. It does not merely confron, it insults, it mocks and belittles. A person firm in his beliefs can shrug it off. An irrational person cannot.

F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
72. I also have the right to be angered by something that I don't like.
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 01:15 PM
Jan 2015
So it seems that some people get really, really angry at satire and parody that they're on the wrong end of.

I'm on the right end of it (assuming you're talking about Hebdo) and it still pisses me off. I agree with everything they say, but not how they say it. I have every right to feel that way. I'm tired of people telling me I'm simply "uncomfortable with satire", or irrationally angry, or that I just need to feel outraged about something. Sorry for the annoyed response, but I'm kinda done with people who tell me that crap.

Oh, and a tip - if satire or parody make you mad as hell, there's probably something in it that you know is true, but are scared to face. Let's all face our superstitions square-on, laugh at 'em, and move forward together.

A fantastic logical fallacy--just because a particular piece of satire bothers me does not imply that that satire holds any truth at all. There is no requisite connection between the amount something angers people and how true it is; of course, the more true something is, the more likely it is to bother people; however, that relationship is not necessarily true. (And yeah, I know you said probably. It was still implied that what you said was true the majority of the time.)

So while I'm not super happy about what Charlie Hebdo produces, I am super happy that they're out there fighting the fight. Ultimately, it's assholes like them that pull humankind forward as we kick, scream and spit.

I certainly don't like a lot of what Charlie Hebdo produces. I think that much of their artwork and satire is based in harmful stereotypes and (referring to recent ones) to some extent, Islamophobia. I don't like that, and I will speak out against it. The problem becomes when people tell me that I have to endorse something in order to support the right of the authors to say it. When I say I don't like some of what Charlie Hebdo has made, I get people (like elsewhere in this thread, hint, hint) telling me that "people just have a certain level of outrage and they do what they need to do to maintain that level." I call bullshit on that--some of us can hold the concept of free speech in our minds and yet still disagree with someone, at the same time. I know, it's pretty cool. Btw, if you haven't read it already, I'd suggest taking a look at this article to clarify what I'm saying here: http://paper-bird.net/2015/01/09/why-i-am-not-charlie/

My main issue with what you say, though, is that you imply we need assholes to move society along. I think that to some extent, you are correct. People who speak the truth are never popular, and the ones who do something about it have to be forceful and aggressive (MLK is a great example). That said, it is not "ultimately, assholes like them that pull society along." It is assholes who support good causes, not assholes just being assholes. There is a huge and critical difference between that and what you said, though I'd guess you meant it differently.

Last thing: everything else you've said I fully agree with. A salute and a beer to the assholes who are doing the right things. May there be many years of satire pissing off all the right people for all the right reasons.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
75. Indeed, people are offended by many things
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 02:24 PM
Jan 2015

For instance some people are offended that Obama is Presidentin' while black, they have every right to be offended and it would be hypocritical and immoral to make fun of them, mock them or annoy them in any way for sincerely held beliefs.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
82. Actually ...
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 03:47 PM
Jan 2015

your witty retort runs counter to the OP ... per the OP, those offended by President Obama haters should just laugh at {the derision} and move forward together.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
88. That was desperation talking. As can be seen by the reply that was soundly ignored.
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 05:16 PM
Jan 2015

Thanks for the thread! Your fans sure do love you!

Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #82)

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
87. Notice they do not disagree, but shift away to the OP and not your point.
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 05:14 PM
Jan 2015

Thanks for making it obvious. People that hate the OP sure do so in a funny way.

TheKentuckian

(25,024 posts)
78. No but if your offense translates to murder and mayhem then the offender can put the offended
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 03:00 PM
Jan 2015

down for a long dirt nap.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
86. So as not to offend anyone right? Nice try but total fail on your part.
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 05:13 PM
Jan 2015

Really you guys that hate the OP should think harder before replying.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
95. I hope this isn't the case...
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:16 PM
Jan 2015

Last edited Thu Jan 15, 2015, 08:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Are you suggesting that people should not offend others, so they don't get killed?

Wouldn't that be victim blaming?

DeadLetterOffice

(1,352 posts)
101. The results of your jury service
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 08:34 PM
Jan 2015

On Thu Jan 15, 2015, 03:10 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

All of which can be avoided by NOT being an ass ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6089481

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Victim blaming on DU? 1SBM seems to be saying that we should not "be an ass" so that we don't get killed. That's victim blaming I think.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jan 15, 2015, 03:18 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I can't really tell what he means so I am voting to leave
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Over the top. Inflammatory and insulting.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think this alert is a really big stretch.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: May be victim blaming, if so it's disgusting but not against the rules.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Very rude

TheKentuckian

(25,024 posts)
109. No, I put the cutoff responsibility on the murdering motherfucker.
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:01 AM
Jan 2015

It goes like this, "Hey regressive fuckwit, murder is not anywhere near an acceptable response to offense, you are going to be a grease spot 99 times out of 100 and one hundred turned himself in and is still doing life.

The response must be like that of a dangerous animal with rabies, kill on sight. So, if you feel like your tolerance for free speech is to low to handle offense then it is time for a one way trip to the closed society of your choice that will accept you, voluntary incarceration, or suicide.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
91. No, but the "offended"...
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 05:56 PM
Jan 2015

doesn't have the right to shut down the "offender's" freedom of speech. If somebody is offended by something, it is up to the offended to learn how to deal with it.

If one person's speech can be restricted, so can everybody else's.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
97. You really believe that ...
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:19 PM
Jan 2015

it's the responsibility of the offended to learn to live with it?

WOW.

ETA: I am offended by racism/racist conduct/speech ... it is MY responsibility to live with that racism? A woman is offended by sexism/misogynist speech/conduct ... It is her responsibility to learn to live with that sexism/misogyny?

Liberals on this board are losing their minds ... or, showing their true colors.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
98. Yes.
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:23 PM
Jan 2015

I didn't say he/she had to like it or quietly submit to it, but he/she doesn't have the right to curb someone else's speech.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
100. You really think you should be able to curb someone else's speech?
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:30 PM
Jan 2015

Seriously? That's the antithesis of our First Amendment.

As I said before, if one person's freedom of speech can be curbed, so can anyone else's. That's the very definition of a slippery slope.

Either I failed to explain my point very well, or you disagree with the First Amendment rights that our Constitution affords to everybody. I'm truly hoping it's the former.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
106. Responding to your edited post...
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 11:24 PM
Jan 2015

I phrased my reply to you poorly, and for that I apologize. I never intended to say that you shouldn't be able to respond as you see fit to anything that you might find offensive. It's my opinion, though, that the person with whom you take exception has every right to express something that you find offensive. You have said things that offend me, and I have responded to you. That doesn't (and shouldn't ever) mean that you don't have every right to post something that offends me.

Free speech goes both ways. Again, it has always been my opinion that as soon as one person's speech is restricted, it becomes that much easier to restrict everyone else's speech. I still remember when Republicans tried to tell us that we shouldn't criticize the President (Bush) in time of war. Would they have banned such criticism if they could have? Hell yes, they would. Are there similar misguided people who would ban criticism of President Obama? You can bet on it.

Speech is free for everybody or for nobody.

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
113. In a word, yes. It's precisely the most offensive speech that must be protected.
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 04:50 PM
Jan 2015

Of course, a private venue like DU can censor away, and the sometimes do, with the jury system.

Now, do decent folk go out of their way to put down others? No, or at least it's not very nice to do so.

Unknown Beatle

(2,672 posts)
80. Don't you think your
Thu Jan 15, 2015, 03:05 PM
Jan 2015

definition is a little simplistic? The human psyche is a complex thing and it's very hard to define spiritual and superstitious concepts in an individual.

While Charlie Hebdo's caricature of the prophet Muhammad might have been over the top, to the assassins it might have been something else entirely, like being tired of being marginalized and they needed to take it out on someone, anyone, and the excuse they needed was in the office of the cartoonists.

It could have been various other reasons aside from religion and/or superstition and I don't think black and white fit into the equation.

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