Pope in blistering critique of Vatican bureaucrats. BOOM!

[Are_grits_groceries]

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Francis issued a blistering critique Monday of the Vatican bureaucracy that serves him, denouncing how some people lust for power at all costs, live hypocritical double lives and suffer from "spiritual Alzheimer's" that has made them forget they're supposed to be joyful men of God.

Francis' Christmas greeting to the cardinals, bishops and priests who run the Holy See was no joyful exchange of holiday good wishes. Rather, it was a sobering catalog of 15 sins of the Curia that Francis said he hoped would be atoned for and cured in the New Year.

He had some zingers: How the "terrorism of gossip" can "kill the reputation of our colleagues and brothers in cold blood." How cliques can "enslave their members and become a cancer that threatens the harmony of the body" and eventually kill it by "friendly fire." About how those living hypocritical double lives are "typical of mediocre and progressive spiritual emptiness that no academic degree can fill."

"The Curia is called on to always improve itself and grow in communion, holiness and knowledge to fulfill its mission," Francis said. "But even it, as any human body, can suffer from ailments, dysfunctions, illnesses."

Francis, who is the first Latin American pope and never worked in the Italian-dominated Curia before he was elected, has not shied from complaining about the gossiping, careerism and bureaucratic power intrigues that afflict the Holy See. But as his reform agenda has gathered steam, he seemed even more emboldened to highlight what ails the institution.

The cardinals were not amused. The speech was met with tepid applause, and few were smiling as Francis listed one by one the 15 "Ailments of the Curia" that he had drawn up, complete with footnotes and Biblical references.
<snip>
More:http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_289563/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=8oUGCDL9

Merry Christmas to the bureaucracy!

The Pope is now taking on the heart of stasis and corruption in the heart of the Catholic Church. This is revolutionary. Nobody has dared question them or their power before. Whether you like him or not, he is truly shaking the church. Whether he ever softens on doctrine remains to be seen. However, rattling the core could help change at some point.

[Scuba]

1. Did he say anything about raping children?

[el_bryanto]

5. You mean has he said anything about the scandal?

Or did he say anything in this particular missive?

Bryant

[Scuba]

7. Both / either.

[el_bryanto]

8. Before I go do some research - are you really curious?

Or was that more of a "Fuck Catholics" response?

[Scuba]

9. I'm curious if about whether or not he's taken a strong stand to expose and prosecute ...

... those who molested children and those who helped cover up those crimes.


I'm not aware of any hard stances he's taken on the issue.


That said, Francis has moved the Catholic Church further in two years than his predecessors did in 16 centuries. He's to be commended for that.

[ucrdem]

10. Yes. Nov. 11, 2014: "Pope Francis appoints sex abuse prosecutor"

http://cir.ca/news/pope-francis-responds-to-child-sex-abuse

p.s. he's spoken repeatedly and strongly on the issue since taking the office. Example from 2013:

Pope Francis Calls For 'Decisive Action' On Clerical Sex Abuse
APRIL 05, 2013

Pope Francis told his staff to take "decisive action" when it comes to cases of clerical sex abuse of minors.

In a statement, the Vatican said the pontiff ordered the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to "act decisively as far as cases of sexual abuse are concerned, promoting, above all, measures to protect minors, help for those who have suffered such violence in the past (and) the necessary procedures against those who are guilty."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/04/05/176352585/pope-francis-calls-for-decisive-action-on-clerical-sex-abuse

[Scuba]

11. Sounds like a good start. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

[el_bryanto]

12. BBC Article from July

Pope Francis has been quoted as saying that reliable data indicates that "about 2%" of clergy in the Catholic Church are paedophiles.

The Pope said that abuse of children was like "leprosy" infecting the Church, according to the Italian La Repubblica newspaper.

He vowed to "confront it with the severity it demands".

But a Vatican spokesman said the quotes in the newspaper did not correspond to Pope Francis's exact words.

From the BBC - the article goes on to talk about the difficulty the PR flacks have with his off the cuff comments.

Bryant

[ucrdem]

17. Some dispute about this one . . .

Evidently the pope had an hour-long sit down with the publisher of La Repubblica who got a couple of points mixed up:

The Vatican issued a statement noting Scalfari's tradition of having long conversations with public figures without taking notes or taping them, and then reconstructing them from memory. Scalfari, 90, is one of Italy's best known journalists.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/13/pope-francis-priests-pedophiles-two-percent_n_5582157.html

p.s. thanks for pressing the point

[AtheistCrusader]

14. How did we get from criticism of one person, to 'fuck catholics'?

He's just one mammal. That's it. Criticism of him doesn't automatically apply to catholics, plural.


And yes, while we're on the subject, he is a homophobic, anti-woman douchebag, worthy of considerable scorn.

"He also strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." - See more at: http://thecontributor.com/new-pope-thinks-gay-adoption-form-discrimination-against-children#sthash.cypmDBHT.dpuf"

And he thinks same sex adoption is akin to discrimination against the child.
http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2014/04/11/pope-francis-kids-must-have-moms-and-dads

And the pope is a constant foe of women everywhere.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/26/pope-francis-abortion_n_5215862.html

No abortion, no contraceptives, etc.


So yeah, Pope's a fucking douchbag. But that doesn't mean all catholics are. Catholics support the use of contraceptives at a higher rate than the general US population.

There's a lot of catholics out there that are much more decent human beings, than the pope is.

[el_bryanto]

15. Catholics revere the Pope - he's their leader

If they continue to participate in a religion that venerates "a homophobic, anti-woman douchebag, worthy of considerable scorn," doesn't that make them also homophobic, anti-woman douchebags?

If not, why not?

Bryant

[AtheistCrusader]

16. No, it doesn't.

Prima facie evidence; Catholics support contraceptives at a higher rate than the general us population. (As I just said)

They want it in the ACA, even though the church sued to block coverage of contraceptives.
http://www.populationmatters.org/2012/newswatch/majority-catholics-support-including-birth-control-health-care/

And they support the use thereof.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/02/10/3270161/global-poll-catholics-contraceptioon-abortion/


So, no, I don't think it's a given they 'venerate' the pope to some level that implies any criticism of the pope, is criticism of them. They don't lock-step follow his bullshit pronouncements.

[el_bryanto]

18. If they disagree with the Pope on most matters than why do they continue to support him?

or is it just one issue they disagree with the pope on? i.e. contraception?

Bryant

[AtheistCrusader]

21. Let me bing that for you.

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2013/03/02/even-if-they-dont-follow-its-rules-catholics-stick-with-their-church/21628

American Catholics are famously indifferent to the directives of their leaders. They don’t follow the rule book on much of anything: birth control, legal abortion, premarital sex, divorce.

They wish, by a wide margin, that their bishops were talking more about social justice issues such as poverty and less about culture-war issues such as abortion. When asked what matters to them most about being Catholic, they overwhelmingly say the resurrection of Jesus, not Vatican authority or celibate, male priests.

And aside from those who are paid to do so, very few American commentators can rally much enthusiasm for the imminent conclave in Rome and the usual handicapping of the papabile.

“New Pope? I’ve Given Up Hope,” wrote the historian Garry Wills, perhaps America’s most eviscerating disillusioned Catholic. It’s as if Catholic identity has become entirely disconnected from the institutional church. “I’m Catholic,” a friend of mine explained to me. “I just don’t agree with anything the church says.”

[AtheistCrusader]

19. I'd also like to take a moment to point out the religious privilege on display here.

You could not defend any other sort of organized institution that held these views/doctrines/pronouncements about gender/sex/reproductive freedom, etc AND was politically active as the church is, here on DU without eating a hide or thread lock.

If there's another type of political or social organization that pronounced these sorts of things, that you could post about positively, or defend here, I'd like to hear about it.

As it stands, it appears to be the sole privilege of religion. Because... reasons?

[ucrdem]

20. .

[el_bryanto]

22. Are we talking about Pope Francis or are talking about the Catholic religion.

One moment it seems like you are trying to disentangle Catholics from the consequences of supporting the pope and then you turn around and suggest that any defense of this "political or social organization" should be locked or hidden.

Bryant

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Again, I am referring to the political activties, and doctrine of the church.

Which is, again, not the members. Why is that difficult to grasp?

They wish, by a wide margin, that their bishops were talking more about social justice issues such as poverty and less about culture-war issues such as abortion. When asked what matters to them most about being Catholic, they overwhelmingly say the resurrection of Jesus, not Vatican authority or celibate, male priests.

The individuals that make up the church membership are a much better reflection on humanity than the church, or it's leaders.

[el_bryanto]

27. But they are individuals who continue to support the political activities and doctrine of the church

by continuing to be members of that church. The Catholic Church in America and organizations that claim to speak for the Catholic Church can claim to be representing ~78 million Catholic Americans. If those individuals so firmly disagreed with the direction of their Church they could leave it and let them off the hook.

The reason Pope Francis has power is because the membership of the Catholic Church gives him power.

More to the point, while it's nice that you personally have no issues with American Catholics - plenty on this board clearly do, and I just wanted to ask before doing any research if Scuba was really interested or just scoring points. I have asked the same about questions of my own faith. Certainly Scuba had no problem understanding what I meant.

Bryant

[AtheistCrusader]

32. There is a significant delta between what the church proclaims as doctrine, and what the members pra

ctise. Why they remain members of the church rather than seeking greener pastures in keeping with their individual values I cannot explain, and I expect the answer would be highly personal, and vary from person to person.

I do believe that continued membership does give the church, as a political entity, bargaining power that it is misrepresenting, and is highly problematic not just in the US, but worldwide.

Last time I spent time highlighting reasons why one might want to leave the church, not as an atheist, but in search of a better faith that lines up with the individuals values, I got castigated with 'who are you to', etc, in the appropriate venues here on DU. But yes, I absolutely do advocate it. Even the 'fairly similar' splinter faiths that came originally from what is the catholic church today, are often more progressive than the RCC itself.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Here, let me add emphasis to my post you couldn't be bothered to fully read.

You could not defend any other sort of organized institution that held these views/doctrines/pronouncements about gender/sex/reproductive freedom, etc AND was politically active as the church is, here on DU without eating a hide or thread lock.

If there's another type of political or social organization that pronounced these sorts of things, that you could post about positively, or defend here, I'd like to hear about it.

As it stands, it appears to be the sole privilege of religion. Because... reasons?

That is neither 'the catholic religion' nor its members. I choose my words carefully, please gin up a little more effort to read them. Doctrine of the catholic religion can be changed at any time, by the mechanisms I have criticized. In most cases, such change polls as quite welcome by the American catholic membership.

[dixiegrrrrl]

2. "spiritual Alzheimer's"

He has a way with words.
This is getting interesting.

[sarge43]

3. "spiritual Alzhelmer's" Brilliant and nailed it. n/t

[Demeter]

4. Either heads will roll

or the Pope will be a prisoner of the system. The malefactors aren't going to change, just because the Pope told them to.

[Helen Borg]

6. The Pope can change anything he wants, right?

Since he speaks the voice of God. Given that, why cannot he just fire all the baddies there and hire new people?

[Shivering Jemmy]

26. nope, he cannot

Only when speaking ex cathedra. And that requires significant internal consensus building.

[Helen Borg]

33. Oh, wow... God needs "permission" then...

Funny

[Shivering Jemmy]

36. something like that.

[Volaris]

13. "the cardinals were not amused."

Lol I can just picture them sitting there, all morose and sad.
GOOD.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. Especially not after last night's game.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/football/seahawks-blast-cardinals-zero-in-on-top-seed/article_6c8efb1c-a040-52cf-93c7-fce714c567d2.html

[Trillo]

28. This belongs in the religion forum. NT

[closeupready]

29. +1000. Catholicism should not get an exemption from this rule.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. This Is About A Statement Made By A Global Newsmaker

Seems to rise above interest group status. And, i haven't been a catholic since 1970.

[dorkzilla]

30. Had I not discovered atheism on the way out the cathedral doors, I’d go back...

...or at least I would have if this man succeeds in his goals.

Either way I’m loving it. It is exactly how my old parish priest would have been had he been Pope. He was a progressive, a feminist, a drinker and the funniest guy ever. He was always happy to discuss theology as an open question, not a set-in-stone answer. Humble and caring, my escape from Holy Mother Church came quickly after he passed away suddenly and I was left with a bunch of group-think morons.

I still miss the fellowship but the other stuff...not so much.

[shrike]

31. Dang. Read the whole article n/t

[True Blue Door]

35. I like Pope Frank. His religion is archaic nonsense left over from the Roman Empire

but he seems like a smart and conscientious guy.

[Arugula Latte]

37. Even the top of the RCC food chain basically admits his organization is all a big corrupt scam, so

why would anyone listen to any of the nonsense spouted by any of these big hat poohbahs, ever?

[BrotherIvan]

38. If he puts action to his words, I will be the first to toast him

I am no fan of Popeaganda, but this is his job, something he can and must do for the Church to have any moral integrity. He should clean up his own house before worrying about anyone else's (womb, bedroom, etc.). And tell them to stay out of secular politics.

I hope he does.

[J_J_]

39. I don't think he was just talking about the Vatican

this perfectly describes the Republican party and minions

"some people lust for power at all costs, live hypocritical double lives and suffer from "spiritual Alzheimer's "

[BootinUp]

40. He's something else ain't he? nt

[hifiguy]

41. Wow. I hope Francis has a food taster and some

very loyal Swiss Guards.

Funny what outsiders can see when brought into the home office. I will repeat what I say in every post about Francis - he has a long way to go on many issues but this is the first pope my atheist self can respect since the days of John XXIII. He is a completely different sort of pope.