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H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 05:46 PM Dec 2014

Prosecute Cheney & Bush

The following is from an interview that I did with Chief Paul Waterman, of the Onondaga Nation, shortly after 9/11:

Q: President Bush has referred to the “evil doers.” What do you think about this?

CPW: Well, he’s the same way. Those people in Afghanistan are poor and miserable. They suffer when bombs kill their parents, and they hurt when bullets kill their children. So, even if Bush believes what he is doing is right, he has to commit evil acts to achieve his goal.

But he can’t stop. The other guy won’t. And when they kill bin Laden, someone else will take his place.

Like everyone on this forum, I was horrified by the information released in the US Senate’s investigation of torture. While I doubt that any of us were surprised that the torture was worse than what was previously known, I am stunned by attempts to justify what happened.

I find the attempts to justify torture, the claims that it was a “patriotic” response to terrorism, even more offensive than the attempts to keep the public from learning the truth about the policies of the Cheney-Bush administration. Attempts to keep this information secret are cowardly, unpatriotic, and shameful. Yet, in a real sense, they are admissions that the torture was evil.

It’s no coincidence that the two individuals who are most intent upon not merely justifying the torture, but defining it as patriotic, are none other than Dick Cheney and George W. Bush. Their smug self-righteousness is no different than that of the most sinister, psychopathic mass murderers, in attempting to justify their acts by blaming others.

This nation had problems before Cheney and Bush were selected by the US Supreme Court in 2000. In his autobiography, Malcolm X quotes Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who noted that the United States was created from, and built upon, the violent abuse of Indians and Africans. Of course, other minority groups have had trials and ill treatment. But those two examples are important in helping us understand not only what went wrong in the distant past, but can be applied to help Americans to understand many of the problems that we continue to face today.

It’s not a coincidence, for example, that a nation that invests in torture of enemies abroad, would also begin to rapidly militarize its domestic police forces. I remember when I was a teenager, hearing basketball legend Bill Russell say, “Use care in selecting those who you hate, for they are the very people you risk coming most closely to resemble.” Listening to former president talk about torture, I could almost believe that he really thought it was right.

“Almost believe,” though, because of something that my other mentor told me.I’ve been fortunate to have both Chief Waterman and Dr. Rubin “Hurricane” Carter for teachers. And Rube had, in his capacity as an opponent of capital punishment, met with then-governor George W. Bush, of Texas. He told me that he found Bush to be a repulsive human being, who delighted in having the “power” to send people to the electric chair. Rubin described Bush as becoming “giddy” when discussing the horrors of the chair. He asked me, “Do you know what that ‘W’ in his name really stands for? It’s for ‘death.’ His name is George Death Bush.”

(Another family friend, who was central in attempts to improve services for troubled youth in NYS, had been hired to assist Texas in a similar way. Her programs were very effective, in both costs and outcome. She enjoyed working with the governor of Texas, until Bush took office. She also describes him as a cruel, hateful human being.)

In order to change behavior -- be it an individual teenager or a country -- there is obviously a need for information. The public has to be informed. Thus, even though we have only been given access to a review of the Senate investigation of torture, it’s a significant start. But it is only a start. Again, to change behavior, there have to be consequences. This includes rewarding good behavior, and punishing bad behavior.

More, in order for the general public to maintain faith in the system, it is essential that the top dogs do not get a free pass, and avoid all responsibility for their misdeeds. And it is rather clear that the top dogs in the Cheney-Bush administration have been given that free pass thus far. Their list of misdeeds includes torture, the war in Iraq, the Plame scandal, and many others. In this case, the failure to prosecute is consent.

In his 2008 book, “The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder,” Vincent Bugliosi presented a strong case for prosecuting Bush et al. That book still holds up extremely well. When we add the war crimes of torture, it is evident that the top tier of that administration has to have legal consequences for their crimes. Anything less makes a mockery of our justice system.

35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Prosecute Cheney & Bush (Original Post) H2O Man Dec 2014 OP
My thinking on the matter should be well known by now. :) Solly Mack Dec 2014 #1
Hey, it's great to see you back here. TexasTowelie Dec 2014 #12
Hey, TexasTowelie! Thanks! Solly Mack Dec 2014 #13
It is great to see you malaise Dec 2014 #14
Thanks, malaise! Solly Mack Dec 2014 #19
Good to see you! H2O Man Dec 2014 #16
Thanks, Waterman. Solly Mack Dec 2014 #20
K&r... spanone Dec 2014 #2
Thanks! H2O Man Dec 2014 #17
your welcome. spanone Dec 2014 #21
K&R Cleita Dec 2014 #3
Thanks! H2O Man Dec 2014 #18
Why stop there? N/t nichomachus Dec 2014 #4
Good question. H2O Man Dec 2014 #23
"She also describes him as a cruel, hateful human being." KansDem Dec 2014 #5
Right. H2O Man Dec 2014 #29
and it horrifies me that every single American now & future will carry this shameful legacy forever misterhighwasted Dec 2014 #6
This Is The Most Damaging & Lasting Effect.... Laxman Dec 2014 #8
I agree ..... H2O Man Dec 2014 #31
Justified and minimized. Even here on DU a poster had the gall to write ... Scuba Dec 2014 #7
There have been H2O Man Dec 2014 #33
Your kind words are appreciated. Thanks for that and all you do. Scuba Dec 2014 #35
Are we still pretending that rampant police violence is unconnected to the violence higher up in the Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #9
Excellent point. Solly Mack Dec 2014 #10
Completely agree! RufusTFirefly Dec 2014 #24
Well said. H2O Man Dec 2014 #34
No. kentuck Dec 2014 #11
+1,000 Water Man malaise Dec 2014 #15
Prosecute Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz Derek V Dec 2014 #22
I wish I hada stronger word than agree. 99Forever Dec 2014 #25
pardon them instead. thom hartmann was pointing this out, a suggestion by someone else. certainot Dec 2014 #26
Sure, H2O Man. And we know the difference between "ought" and "is." malthaussen Dec 2014 #27
Nice fantasy but it'll never happen. nt elias49 Dec 2014 #28
“The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder,” Vincent Bugliosi Perseus Dec 2014 #30
yep! napkinz Dec 2014 #32


(113,615 posts)
12. Hey, it's great to see you back here.
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:00 PM
Dec 2014

I know that some people (including myself) were worried about you when you weren't around. I hope that you are doing well.

Solly Mack

(90,902 posts)
13. Hey, TexasTowelie! Thanks!
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:02 PM
Dec 2014

Was having a bad month but things are getting a little better. Real busy time but I'm taking a break right now.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
23. Good question.
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:16 PM
Dec 2014

In the OP, I said the top tier should be prosecuted. But there isn't any reason to not prosecute others, if an investigation indicates that they were involved in illegal activity.

The general pattern in prosecuting "organized crime" is to start at the lower levels, flip people, and work up to the top. Unfortunately, in the political realm, recent history (Nixon-Watergate, and Reagan/Bush-Iran/Contra) it has been lower-level people, and some near the top, but never the president.

Because there is ample evidence against Cheney-Bush -- and those on the next tier -- it would seem important to focus attention on the .....as their positions allowed them the ability to order others to commit crimes. But your point is well-taken; I definitely agree.


(28,498 posts)
5. "She also describes him as a cruel, hateful human being."
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 05:59 PM
Dec 2014
Bush Exhibits All of the Primary Symptoms of Abusive Personality Disorder
Bush Character

Reading through this check list of symptoms of abusive personality, it seemed as if we were reading a description of Bush and his most dedicated supporters - right down to the cruelty to animals (Bush admitted he used to blow up frogs for fun). Just shift the focus of the abuse from home to global situation ("past battering" could refer to invasions of poor countries) and there you have it - a president who is a perpetrator and a blindly devoted army of followers who exhibit all the signs of abuse victims (codependence, making excuses for the perp, endangering self or others to please the perp, low self-esteem, etc.).

Archive: Democrats.com

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
29. Right.
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:39 PM
Dec 2014

I hesitate to attempt to diagnose anyone that I haven't met, but there is ample evidence of Bush's rather glaring Axis II pathology.


(9,148 posts)
6. and it horrifies me that every single American now & future will carry this shameful legacy forever
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 06:22 PM
Dec 2014

Last edited Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Another great big sack of shame filled with the horrific deeds of our leaders to hang on our backs until we effin die & then sadly hand it on for our children to drag behind them as they began their walk through life.

Bush Crime Family & Cheney's long involvement with the CIA says all I need to know as to why the Supreme Court selected Bush. It was set in motion long ago.
They are the one's who hate America for its freedoms. They set out to destroy everyone of them & have left us with this legacy to be shamed & hated the whole world through'

And they succeeded.
And here comes Jeb. Polished, primed and once again pre-selected to preside over this broken Nation & complete the Bush Crime Family's vision of their America. They take what they want, however they want to.

Bush Crime Family's motives & purpose have always been to exploit this Nation.
They are treasonous, to those of us who hold dear our US Constitution, but regarding that, as President GW Bush stated, as he waved a piece of paper in the air, referring to the US Constitution, "its just a piece of paper".
That is what this Bush Crime Family thinks of the USA. It is their's to exploit.
And that is it.


(2,419 posts)
8. This Is The Most Damaging & Lasting Effect....
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 06:40 PM
Dec 2014

that this episode in our history will have. I doubt many people will be cognizant that these deeds were done in their name. Some won't care because they were bloodthirsty for some form of revenge or retribution and couldn't care less if there was no actionable or valuable intelligence gained. Someday, however, the price of forfeiting any moral standing or perhaps even bearing the brunt of someone else's desire for revenge or retribution will exact a price. To those of us who do understand this, we know how we have been diminished as human beings, as a nation and as individuals. We will never regain what was lost.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
31. I agree .....
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:42 PM
Dec 2014

There is a reason that so many people around the planet hate the USA/American citizens. And it ain't "for our freedoms." Nor is it because our justice system recognizes that "no man is above the law." It is because the ugliest of ugly Americans -- people like Cheney and Bush.



(53,475 posts)
7. Justified and minimized. Even here on DU a poster had the gall to write ...
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 06:30 PM
Dec 2014

... that he doubts it was more than a few CIA agents who were upset when Bush said torturers should be punished.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
33. There have been
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 10:26 PM
Dec 2014

a few posts by DUers -- ones I assume aren't "trolls" -- that make me wonder if we are inhabiting the same world? A few who seem sincere in their inability to grasp what is being reported.

I prefer to concentrate on the responses to the news by the majority of folks here, who do understand, and who do care. People like you, who make this forum worth-while.




(45,319 posts)
9. Are we still pretending that rampant police violence is unconnected to the violence higher up in the
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 06:57 PM
Dec 2014

system and the impunity with which actual horrors are greeted? Do people really believe you can run a torture program and not grow a garden full of violent abusers of all forms of authority?
No justice, no peace.


(8,812 posts)
24. Completely agree!
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:22 PM
Dec 2014

Our country sends a clear message that violence works and that if you are in a position of power you can get away with practically anything -- unless, of course, you happen to anger someone else who happens to be equally powerful.

Violence from the top down is not only permissible; it's often admired.
Violence from the bottom up, on the other hand, is reprehensible.

For the record, I oppose all violence, but it's impossible to overlook the gross hypocrisy and inequity in our system.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
34. Well said.
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 10:29 PM
Dec 2014

Sad to say that in this country, there are a great many people who are unable to make those connections, though they are glaringly obvious .....they do not see the connections between what has happened since 2000, and their own lives.


(111,257 posts)
11. No.
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 06:59 PM
Dec 2014

They should prosecute the two contractors that were paid $81 million dollars and go up from there. I'm sure they will spill their guts....without being tortured.


Derek V

(532 posts)
22. Prosecute Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:09 PM
Dec 2014

Bush to too dumb to be held legally accountable. I mean, do you really think HE was making the decisions?


(14,524 posts)
25. I wish I hada stronger word than agree.
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:23 PM
Dec 2014

Not only should they face trial here, but after being convicted, they should be frogmarched in front of The International Court in the Hauge.



(9,090 posts)
26. pardon them instead. thom hartmann was pointing this out, a suggestion by someone else.
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:27 PM
Dec 2014

no president has ever prosecuted a previous president. they will never go to jail. it will mean all out political war that will paralyze and distract the country from everything else. republicans dominate media, especially with the pitiful job the dems and left do by ignoring republican radio and the republicans will certainly try to impeach obama in retaliation.

pardon them instead. that implies they're guilty and will create a different kind of discussion. they'll be branded and disgraced without the national paralysis. putting them in jail won't bring back any soldiers or undo any torture.


(17,308 posts)
27. Sure, H2O Man. And we know the difference between "ought" and "is."
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:32 PM
Dec 2014

The President has already issued the "Get Out of Jail Free" card to the responsible persons, and he has absolved them on more than one occasion. What future Chief Executive will do other? Even the most progressive heroes on the Left are silent on this issue. The extent of their remorse is to say "Mistakes were made, now let's carry on." I would be shocked if any but the most low-level scapegoats are made to answer for this crime.

Since our government has shown time and again that it is unresponsive to public pressure, and since the bulk of our citizens don't even care enough to apply that pressure through the ballot box, what odds that we will see any form of justice done? Innocent men still languish in the prison at Guantanamo, and only Uruguay seems to care. Do you really think the majority of Americans really care that suspect terrorists were tortured? And even if they do care, do you think they'd go to any inconvenience to do something about it? Aside from posturing and crocodile tears, I expect this report to be a nine day's wonder at best. Besides, Congress has to vote again to repeal Obamacare, and surely another Benghazi investigation is in the works.

-- Mal



(4,341 posts)
30. “The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder,” Vincent Bugliosi
Tue Dec 9, 2014, 08:41 PM
Dec 2014

This is a fantastic book, everyone should have a read...It is not long because 1/3 of it is references.

Now, why hasn't anyone taken this book and followed through? One would think that once Bugliosi presented the case and the formula to indict these people, that an ambitious lawyer would take the case...Are they so afraid of the Bushes?

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