are you a micro or macro thinker? is it an innate characteristic or a developed perspective?

[seabeyond]

Last edited Thu Dec 22, 2011, 07:02 PM - Edit history (1)

Macro. Micro. I especially get caught up with this in discussions about rape. Macro, rape culture. Big view. Feminists seek to dismantle it. But then you get the micro, the individual. Those are the arguments of, "Well, that's a nice thought, but we still have to keep ourselves safe now (so you shouldn't drink too much/wear that outfit/whatever)."

I think feminism is best when it's acknowledging the micro while addressing the macro. I think that micro concerns can be red herrings in feminist discussions, though, because it's not about the individuals. It's about the structures. No matter how much I read, I still keep coming back to that. Arguments about whether feminists can shave their legs or wear heels are pointless. It's not about those individual women. It's about the structure of society that gives brownie points to women who conform to contemporary beauty standards. Why does this happen? How do we change that?

Likewise, the rape discussions aren't about whether women actually want to walk naked down the street without being assaulted. It's not about that. It's about why this idea is so ludicrous to us in the first place. Why are women's bodies so highly sexualized? Why is men's entitled behavior assumed to be an unchangeable given?

It's the structures. I don't want to get caught up in the micro. Everybody navigates society as best they can. Society presents us a range of options, but it stacks the decks so some will seem more attractive. I don't think it denies a person's autonomy to recognize this. As a feminist, it's that deck-stacking I want to focus on. When people go round and round about how practical it is for young women to take self-defense courses to protect against rape, I want to just turn and point at the culture that is producing that. That's what matters. That's what needs to change.

http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/352304.html

___________________________

i was having a conversation with my husband last night. he views the world by how it effects him and what he can do about. collective vs individual. macro vs micro. i googled a bet, but i have never done google well. i was looking to see if this perception of thinking is innate, human character. if some of us look at the world as a whole, while others look at it from self. it is also connected to the u.s. individualism and from what i understand the 3rd wave feminism. are we becoming more of a nation where we see the world thru self?

i am interested in hearing others perspective on this issue. thanks.

edit to expand. .... because i am such a strong macro thinker, i am always looking at society and the issues to address. i cannot walk away from them. because my husband is a micro thinker, he tends to say, "i can't do anything about it. i am just one. so i work with my world and how i want to create it". that is fine for him, but i cannot walk away from the world as a whole, either. i am trying to see if i accept this as who i am, or is there things i can do to not see as i do, lol. it would make life a hell of a lot easier. but, i have always felt a "burden" and have been willing to live that (and i dont mean that in a woe is me, kinda way). regardless how uncomfortable it may be. i also think, life would be easier otherwise.

since we can edit forever.... and what do you think about fellow duers when discussing social issues. if you have a macro and micro thinker, don't you think that may be why we never get beyond the beginning of a discussion? we are thinking the other is purposely obtuse. but, if they perceive things from a totally different direction, then are they capable of seeing?

[WingDinger]

1. Much of this is referred to as the devils choice, in philosophy.

Talk about broad swaths, and be relevant, or be laser focussed, and accurate, but irrelevant to any but scientists in your field. As it always was. But, people prefer to be where they usually are on that continuum.

Hang out towards the macro end of things, and you will be defending against exceptions to the rule, and little else. Hang out on the micro end, and peopple simply yawn.

[seabeyond]

3. what i am wondering is do we tend to these behaviors thru learned experience, or is it a character

of who we are.

i have always looked at an issue in a macro, whole perspective.

my husband cannot/willnot for anything.

i am curious if people feel it is innate. i have an older son that see things as i do.

[WingDinger]

11. MEN generally are micro. That is why they are such good engineers etc. Also why we are so screwed as

a culture. Our political class are micros, that can only learn from mistakes, by over reaction.

[seabeyond]

12. did you read my editSSSSSS

lol.

not good for me to have endless edits.

i was also wondering if it was gender oriented and that would tell me it is more learned than innate. because in my mind, and what i experience and see raising two boys, most gender differences stems from culture and society. i didnt do gender in my house. and neither of my boys fall into the classifications of assigned roles.

[WingDinger]

18. My feeling is, brain structure tends one way. Just like how most women and gays prefer less complica

ted music, with a driving beat. And straight men tend towards more intricate less melodic music. It would not make sense for there to be one human regular. Having a range, would cover more eventualities. Also makes opposite sexes attractive enough to mate with.

[seabeyond]

21. why gender does not work for me, with this issue. the premise of 3rd wave feminism

is micro as opposed to macro.

that is a whole lot of women thinking in micro terms.

[WingDinger]

24. I am not certain what that is, but:

Since women have been dominated by micromen for so long, they may be trying to emulate them.

After some investigation, third wave is the saem reaction as blacks bucking the white designated BLACK LEADERS they have trotted out to train them how to be minorities. There is no one woman's generic view. And any peer pressure towards that is stifling.

[ensho]

2. the best is to be both - depending on the situation

nt

[seabeyond]

4. i think they both bring something to the table.

i am not saying one way of thinking is better than another. i know in my house, it may make communication a challenge at times, but i love to listen to my husband so i can hear it from his perspective.

but i am looking at this issue in the typical macro perspective, lol. a characteristic? learned? how it effects society?

[LiberalLoner]

5. I think that's a very interesting question and I think some light might be shed by the Myers-Briggs

MB has a test (found on-line for free) that breaks people down into different categories.

For instance, I am an INFP and we tend to be global conceptualizers. In other words, we are more comfortable with the macro and don't do well with details in general. But we are very much "big picture" people. And we are a fairly rare personality type so sometimes we feel out of step with the rest of the world which tends to focus more on micro.

Anyway, you might find taking that test and reading about the different personality types and their learning styles, etc. very interesting and enjoyable!

[seabeyond]

7. hmmm. lol

sounds like my world. thanks. i will.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. What a good article, Seabeyond. I think men and women do view the world differently...

but I'm not sure why this is.

I do believe men do live with a view from a personal perspective more than women do.

With regard to women and being sexually objectified, I think we women need to understand that we should be the first to not sexually objectify ourselves. This is not easy. It's a battle. We grow up in a society that objectifies us, so to see ourselves through a different lens takes effort.

Last night I joined my mom in watching a variety show on TV (on Spanish TV), and they had a guest - a woman - who makes her living showing her body. Her talent is that, being as unclothed as possible. She's not a tremendously talented dancer, singer, or actor, so she displays her body, and it sells. The host of the program is a man, and he wears a suit. The 'helpers' in the program wear minidresses that are more like a bathing suit than anything else. There are signs that all the women have had multiple surgeries and lipo (18 inch waist, massive breasts, overflowing lips). There's no doubt that sexual objectification sells, and these underdressed, caricature-like women are making a pretty good living at it.

This is not unusual in our society. When I've been to music clubs, the men are dressed from neck to foot, but the women are half-dressed, displaying as much as possible.

To a large degree, we women are our own worst enemies, choosing to sexually objectify ourselves rather than fighting it, and refusing to become a part of our own sexual objectification.

[seabeyond]

8. perpetuate the same prejudicial thoughts or behavior...accepted as part of the positive majority

Last edited Thu Dec 22, 2011, 12:23 PM - Edit history (1)

So it seems that women, just as other oppressed groups, often perpetuate the same prejudicial thoughts or behavior that they’ve experienced in a way to separate themselves from the oppressed group and be accepted as part of the positive majority. Competition is formed in order to be ingratiated to those in positions of power or those seen as possessing positive characteristics. And yet, Steinem explains, when an opportunity is created for the sharing of experiences, a sense of community emerges. A sense of sisterhood, if you will.


this was in an article i read. and yes. i think it is important. it was a reminder and also helped me to understand.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

17. Yes! That's it exactly. You just pointed out to me what I had failed to see

The competition aspect. Absolutely that's an integral part of it.

And we women MUST be aware of this, and not fall into the trap of it.

I wonder what we can do to make other women aware of this, and stop falling into this trap?

[Lars39]

9. A quote by Eleanor Roosevelt I've come to really appreciate:

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

I fall into all three categories, depending on the topic, but I'd like to think I'm always striving to understand the "big picture", no matter what the topic.

[seabeyond]

10. i won't tell you where i fall, lol

cause everyone will have a snort fest, lol ... ah ha.

i have always been serious in thought that drives so many around the bend. even as a child. never got much into the adolescent phase. which tends to tell me it is character, and not something we are going to change in ourselves.

[Lars39]

13. I can relate....seems I was always the one with the "overview" capabilities.

"But why? That doesn't make sense!" lol

[seabeyond]

14. lmfao.... oh, the WHY? question. always and inevitable. another difference

something happens to computer. hubby fixes. i ask why. he says, doesnt matter, it is fixed.

NO WAY

lol

i gotta know why......

that is funny

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

15. Micro. As Tip O'Neill said, All Politics is Local

Eg: "Rape Culture", I never heard of that, but it sounds bad. But, someone I know got raped, and it took a while for the rage to subside. Micro-reacting.

Sort of like crime: less is better, more is bad. But when I got robbed, the effect was severe and physical, probably adrenaline kicking in. More micro thought.

Same as unemployment. A small percentage is better than a large percentage. But what really impacts me is whether or not I have a job today. Muy micro.

I'd guess "macro" is a higher level of thinking. And in order for macro-think to happen, the "micro" has to be pretty well satisfied.

I don't have any answers to the macro issue of how to eliminate rapist tendencies from all humanity. Some micro-efforts, like self-defense classes, may be moderately successful against some assailants, and also have side-benefits, like fitness, balance, and confidence.

Some other micro-solutions, like toning down the shade of lipstick or letting the leg hair grow out, I suspect are completely useless as a defense, but are fine as fashion statements.

I can think "macro" sometimes, but it requires beer. In vino veritas.

[seabeyond]

16. I can think "macro" sometimes, but it requires beer.

i LOVE this. i am so going to give this to hubby as a gift, lol. ah ha.

see, you micro guys do come in handy.

cute.

thanks.

(hubby makes me laugh ALL the time)

[Odin2005]

27. Another Micro thinker, here.

I didn't "get it" until a friend of mine was raped.

[themadstork]

19. I find that I vacillate rapidly between the two extremes.

And that fact has helped and hurt me, over the years. It's also made writing fiction to be a pretty weird experience. Sometimes I'll catch myself so zoned in toward the micro side that I've lost three, four, five hours working on just one sentence--toying with it, "perfecting" it. But then I'll have moments like, in college, when I could sometimes compose a really good 2K-word essay in 10-15 minutes.

But then if I was in a micro phase I might take 10-20hrs writing that same 2K-word essay, and sometimes that meant my work would be late. I think this baffled most professors that knew me at all, as I'd have weeks where I really really struggled to get anything done and then weeks where everything would be turned in early and overflowing the stated word-limits.

I think this may be in some way related to my ADD. Not sure, but it kind of feels like it. The inability to ever find some kind of balance between the two types of attention--always either zerging on ahead and pounding out paragraph after paragraph, or devoting hours to the sound and structure of one sentence. And being hopeless to ever consciously choose between what mode I'd be working in.

[seabeyond]

20. i am saving this one for my oldest son.

interesting, interesting. over the years i have had to do a lot of thinking, reading and learning to understand him. this is very good.

[marked50]

22. Found something a few years ago that really helped sort things

This may not be directly related to what you are asking about micro vs macro thinking but a number of years ago I came across one of those "corporate improvement" courses that you hear about. Don't dismiss it yet, just because it is used in corporatedom. It is called "Human Dynamics" and developed by Dr. Sandra Seagal and David Horne. Myers-Briggs it is not.

Basically, it is based upon the idea that we are pretty hardwired early on with one of 3 primary views in dealing with the world around us. We are either emotionally based, physcially based, or mentally based with all views coming into play at some level in a secondary and tertiary mode. This isn't gender based.

The population is divided up into the 9 various permutations, with most fitting into 2 or 3 main ones. It really explained to me why someone was thinking or behaving they way they were because they were coming from these centers and it made sense why some were introverts and others extroverts, some were leaders with zany ideas, and some were just real solid and logical, on and on. It really hit me because I didn't fit in with so many others and it turns out I was in one of the 1-2% of the population permutations- not trying to blow my horn here but helped explain why I didn't "behave" like so many others in my company and the knowledge of this has helped me understand my worldview at the same time.

By the way I don't work there anymore and just left the company to strike out on my own.

[seabeyond]

23. this is what i was looking for.

i can see this. it makes sense. people that know me what to say i am emotional. reality. i am almost emotionless. lol. but it appears emotion cause of reactions, but it is not my thinking. i strongly fall in the mentally based. also, thru my spiritual trip a while ago, (self explored) i found myself focusing on all three. the physical, emotional, mental and bringing them in as one. so that would confirm, in my mind anyway.

gibberish.... for most. but a place for exploration for me.

thanks.

[marked50]

29. Just to expand on my own views

In this "Human Dynamics" thing, I found out that I am a "Mental-Physical". My primary way of looking and dealing with world is from a mental space with the Physcial component being the secondary "filter"- like relating to the physical things around me- nature,etc. This doesn't mean that there isn't an emotional side to it, but it isn't a driver or as important. Many think that I "am cold" because I don't wear my emotions on my sleeve but it doesn't mean I don't have them-I can cry or laugh too- just don't use them outwardly like many. Hence, you can see where conflicts with others can arise because they don't view the world in the same way and they are usually emotionally quick to judge- the western world is made up of 80% Emotional based people with 15% Physical based and 5% Mental. Pretty good learning for me.

Edited to add: I am in no way associated with the "Human Dynamics" organization

[seabeyond]

30. i have to do christmas stuff, but i am going to check it out.

thanks.

[RobinA]

25. While I Disagree

with the examples of what's micro and what's macro in the OP, I do think people innately lean one way or the other. I also think one can learn to go more the other way than one does naturally. In my experience, men tend to be more macro and women more micro. That said, I am a female macro (Undergrad - Sociology). I've developed my micro side (Grad - Psychology) as I've gotten older, but when push comes to shove...Details, Begone!

[seabeyond]

26. interesting, thanks (edited)

and thanks for giving your education. that matters.

on edit

a micro vs macro example, for me. what do you think.

strip bars. i have all these big picture reasons i oppose them. damage to the girl, man, society.

talking to micro hubby. he went a couple times. didnt like it. didnt like paying for a taunt and walking out. to him, it was insulting.

same results. different angles. my mouth dropped open when i heard his perspective. i hadnt even thought of that.

i find that often with him. he always arrives where i am, but we do it differently. really interesting.

[WingDinger]

28. In Jr. high, I tested 98 percentile in most categories. Cept one.

Spacial relations. Then, I took drafting classes. Learned to view three views etc as a solid object, in my mind. then, I became a working engineer. Cad designer, process engineer. Moldmaker. What your original programming was, is not as important as your learned skillset.

While women are the weaker sex, just about any woman that pumps iron seriously could be stronger than most men.

[seabeyond]

31. and this is one of the things i am aware of, that conflicts with what we are conditioned with.

for a decade and a half i was in an highly competitive sport with both genders. male and female. we swam together. and in my particular stroke, there was only one or two boys that could beat me at any given time. when i did the high school team, my swimming was so beyond all the kids on the team of both genders. so in my event, i could beat the guys. there were very view at my level. it wasnt because i was stronger per se, but because i had spent more years and way more time training.

i could often challenge anyone to a race and without knowing the person, know i would beat them.

i was not raised in a world of gender.

[seabeyond]

32. ha... i was able to get my post back. thank goodness for edits..... lol. nt