After Maher-Affleck, We Need an Honest—and Calm—Dialogue on Islam

[applegrove]

After Maher-Affleck, We Need an Honest—and Calm—Dialogue on Islam

by Dean Obeidallah at the Daily Beast

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/10/after-maher-affleck-we-need-an-honest-and-calm-dialogue-on-islam.html

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And by the way, “the Muslim world,” as the media loves to call it, doesn’t exist. At least not in the sense that there's universal agreement on Islam or how it should be followed. A Pew study in 2013 made that very point revealing that Muslims around the world disagree in big numbers on almost everything connected to Islam.

A responsible discussion about Islam is not cherry-picking poll results from one Muslim country, or even from a few of the 49 Muslim-majority nations, and saying “Well, that’s what Islam is all about.”

For example, on the issue of whether a women must wear a veil or not, 90 percent of the Muslims in Turkey and Tunisia believe it’s the women’s choice. In contrast, only 30 percent in Afghanistan feel the same.

On issue of whether there should be a death penalty for leaving Islam, 64 percent of Egyptians said yes while less than 5 percent of Muslims in Turkey held that belief. Big difference, yet both nations are home to almost 80 million Muslims.

So a responsible discussion about Islam is not cherry-picking poll results from one Muslim country, or even from a few of the 49 Muslim-majority nations, and saying “Well, that’s what Islam is all about.” That would be like taking poll results from very conservative portions of the United States and saying that represents all, or most, of the 300 million-plus Americans’ views on issues. So be specific, and then we can address why the laws or views in that country are the way they are. Yes, I know it’s more work this way, but it’s also more accurate.

And if you want to have a discussion criticizing laws in certain Muslim-majority countries that discriminate against women, minority faiths, or gays, I’m with you. However, some of the laws, like Saudi's ban on women driving, are not based on Islam but on rulers wanting to control people. We need to make those distinctions.




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[PeaceNikki]

1. It's also time to stop framing the debate as if Islam is not a set of BELIEFS.

Affleck and others keep likening criticism of Islam to racism or homophobia and that is utter bullshit.

"Religion does tell us something about a person's mindset; race does not. And our mindset often dictates our action. In short, religion is a far better predictor of belief, and therefore behavior, than race."
http://ffrf.org/news/blog/item/21513-what-ben-affleck-missed-in-the-islamophobia-debate-with-bill-maher-and-sam-harris#sthash.53QeJT85.KylQ0Dvb.dpuf

[applegrove]

2. True.

[Dr. Strange]

13. Ooh, nice.

Thanks for that article!

[valerief]

3. I wonder how many Iranian women were happy when the Shah was deposed

and the Ayatollah Khomeini took over.

I wonder how many of those women felt safe enough to answer truthfully.

[marym625]

4. better example

Would be Christians in this country. I personally know some southern Baptists that refuse to believe catholics are Christian. I went to college with a guy at the University of Kentucky, that believed while growing up, that to be a Catholic, you had to kill someone.

Even within religions you'll get different beliefs. Cardinal George is an ass who does everything he can to put down the LGBT community. However, the pastor of my aunt's church in the burbs believes LGBT people were born that way and preaches love and understanding

Religion, like the constitution, is a living thing in the sense that it changes with the times.

[Rhinodawg]

5. No mention of violence .....or terrorism ?

Or ISIS ?
Or Al Qaeda ?
Or honor killings?
Or beheadings?
Or acid in faces ?

Just asking if that's included ?

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. Can we have an open and honest discussion about Jews and Judaism, or is that off limits?

[Rhinodawg]

7. Absolutely...

Let's discuss the current state of...

Jewish terrorists groups
Jewish beheadings
Jewish honor killings
Jews throwing acid in women's faces

Go for it.

[Douglas Carpenter]

8. we can talk about Palestine and other issues - but personally I don't want to personally blame

Jewish people for these matters even if the majority of Jewish people tend to support most of the crimes committed by the state of Israel - because It is still not fair. Your effort to promote racial and religious hatred is not something I would tend to support - because things get complicated when identity politics kick in. .

[Rhinodawg]

10. I understand.

The problem started with the poster saying "Islam is a conservative, bigoted, regressive religion..."

Btw... That wasn't me.

I happen to agree with Maher but feel free to make me the scapegoat.

[Douglas Carpenter]

12. I don't want to blame Jewish People for the crimes committed by the State of Israel even if most

Jewish People are apologist for Israel's crimes- because I understand that identity politics complicates issue and otherwise decent people become unreasonable - I also don't want to blame Muslim people for similar reasons.

[baldguy]

9. Look up the history of the IRA.

[bobclark86]

11. If we can lump...

Genocide, forced removals, lynchings, etc. into a discussion about Christianity.

[LostOne4Ever]

14. Ummm

And if you want to have a discussion criticizing laws in certain Muslim-majority countries that discriminate against women, minority faiths, or gays, I’m with you. However, some of the laws, like Saudi's ban on women driving, are not based on Islam but on rulers wanting to control people. We need to make those distinctions.

That law is based on the religious leaders of Saudi Arabia and not the ruler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Mobility

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has said that he wants women to drive when the society is ready for it:[28]

I believe strongly in the rights of women. My mother is a woman. My sister is a woman. My daughter is a woman. My wife is a woman. I believe the day will come when women will drive. In fact if you look at the areas of Saudi Arabia, the desert, and in the rural areas, you will find that women do drive. The issue will require patience. In time I believe that it will be possible. I believe that patience is a virtue.

http://mic.com/articles/66575/the-inside-story-of-saudi-arabia-s-bizarre-ban-on-female-drivers

The ban on female drivers originated with a fatwa, a formal legal opinion, and is not encoded in law. In 1991, the nation’s Grand Mufti Abd al-Aziz bin Baz argued that a woman driving “entails unlawful khalwa (being alone with a member of the opposite sex), unveiling the face, careless and free intermixing (of men and women), and committing adultery, which is the main reason for the prohibition of these practices.” In line with this legal opinion, the kingdom does not issue driving licenses to women, resulting in a de-facto ban. Female Saudi activists have protested this restriction ever since.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mufti_of_Saudi_Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Aziz_ibn_Baz#Women.27s_rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Al_ash-Sheikh_and_role_of_the_ulema


Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but it does look to me that particular issue kinda is based on certain interpretations of Islam. More specifically the religious leaders of Saudi Arabia. If I am reading this right the ruling family of Saudi Arabia is actually pushing for more women's rights.

[LawDeeDah]

15. ....ban on women driving, are not based on Islam but on rulers wanting to control people....

freaking A+++

plus