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Wed Oct 1, 2014, 10:34 AM

 

German universities to scrap all tuition fees!

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4213550.ece

All German universities will be free of charge when term starts next week after fees were abandoned in Lower Saxony, the last of seven states to charge.

“Tuition fees are socially unjust,” said Dorothee Stapelfeldt, senator for science in Hamburg, which scrapped charges in 2012. “They particularly discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up studies. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany.”

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Reply German universities to scrap all tuition fees! (Original post)
grahamhgreen Oct 2014 OP
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #1
grahamhgreen Oct 2014 #3
DetlefK Oct 2014 #7
liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #8
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #9
liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #10
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #14
liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #15
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #16
liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #18
GermanWatcher Oct 2014 #60
pnwmom Oct 2014 #29
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #30
pnwmom Oct 2014 #32
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #33
pnwmom Oct 2014 #36
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #40
1dogleft Oct 2014 #88
pnwmom Oct 2014 #89
OldEurope Oct 2014 #65
pnwmom Oct 2014 #66
1dogleft Oct 2014 #87
TexasMommaWithAHat Oct 2014 #23
dbackjon Oct 2014 #34
pnwmom Oct 2014 #38
badtoworse Oct 2014 #44
pnwmom Oct 2014 #46
badtoworse Oct 2014 #48
pnwmom Oct 2014 #49
badtoworse Oct 2014 #51
pnwmom Oct 2014 #52
badtoworse Oct 2014 #57
pnwmom Oct 2014 #59
badtoworse Oct 2014 #61
snooper2 Oct 2014 #50
pnwmom Oct 2014 #53
snooper2 Oct 2014 #54
pnwmom Oct 2014 #55
snooper2 Oct 2014 #58
badtoworse Oct 2014 #62
U4ikLefty Oct 2014 #68
dotymed Oct 2014 #81
Cal Carpenter Oct 2014 #19
Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #21
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #25
immoderate Oct 2014 #27
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #28
immoderate Oct 2014 #37
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #41
immoderate Oct 2014 #45
Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #43
hunter Oct 2014 #82
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #83
hunter Oct 2014 #84
Dreamer Tatum Oct 2014 #85
hunter Oct 2014 #97
merrily Oct 2014 #47
whopis01 Oct 2014 #71
logosoco Oct 2014 #2
DetlefK Oct 2014 #4
grahamhgreen Oct 2014 #5
CANDO Oct 2014 #6
frazzled Oct 2014 #11
liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #13
frazzled Oct 2014 #17
liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #20
treestar Oct 2014 #76
taught_me_patience Oct 2014 #12
Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #22
Yavin4 Oct 2014 #24
hifiguy Oct 2014 #31
calimary Oct 2014 #35
treestar Oct 2014 #75
ladjf Oct 2014 #26
RufusTFirefly Oct 2014 #39
liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #64
Jamastiene Oct 2014 #70
guyfromla Oct 2014 #42
DrDan Oct 2014 #56
grahamhgreen Oct 2014 #67
DrDan Oct 2014 #72
JTFrog Oct 2014 #77
DrDan Oct 2014 #80
JTFrog Oct 2014 #99
DrDan Oct 2014 #100
JTFrog Oct 2014 #101
DrDan Oct 2014 #102
FSogol Oct 2014 #78
Electric Monk Oct 2014 #63
Jamastiene Oct 2014 #69
T_i_B Oct 2014 #73
TRoN33 Oct 2014 #74
grahamhgreen Oct 2014 #79
toby jo Oct 2014 #86
Helen Borg Oct 2014 #95
Hubert Flottz Oct 2014 #90
workinclasszero Oct 2014 #91
pediatricmedic Oct 2014 #92
JDPriestly Oct 2014 #93
Helen Borg Oct 2014 #94
Lenomsky Oct 2014 #96
grahamhgreen Oct 2014 #98

Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 10:39 AM

1. I'd be happy to revert to a German university model if we did what the Germans do

which is tell people "tough shit, you're not university material" when they're not.

University education in Europe is generally very serious business. If they don't think
you can cut it, you do not get in. They send you to what amounts to a trade school.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 10:47 AM

3. I'd be happy to for any reason. Education is investment in our future.

 



I would not include for profit uni's either.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:02 AM

7. I studied in Germany and I think, this weeding-out makes sense.

At my old university there was a regulation that you have to have passed the written exams on the beginner's classes of the main subject until the 4th semester. (Earliest possible date: after 2nd semester) And you have to have passed the oral exams for the pre-diploma (encompassing the material of all beginner's classes) no later than the 6th semester (earliest possible date: after 3rd semester).
If you failed, you got kicked out.

And there was a running joke that each semester the new students complain that THEIR written exams were ESPECIALLY hard. WAY harder than the exams of previous semesters.
Yes, the written exams were unnecessarily hard in the early semesters, but I guess that only had the purpose to force us into a steep learning-curve, to see who has the brains and stamina to make it to the end without further problems.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:13 AM

8. What's wrong with offering remedial classes for those who learn differently or at a different pace

than everyone else? Trade school is fine for those who want to go to trade school, but what about those who want a college degree but just learn at a different pace or have a different learning style or have a learning disability? There's no reason why we can't adopt a different model that actually helps those people succeed. Today's education model sucks. No wonder no one really enjoys going to school. No wonder no one enjoys learning.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #8)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:16 AM

9. That's not the German model. Take it up with them.

In this country we treat college as a birthright or a rite of passage. People waste money on it. Europe, not so much.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:18 AM

10. It is never a waste. Learning should be a life long process. We should encourage anyone

who wants to learn.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #10)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:29 AM

14. Which is partly why we have the problems we do.

I am sure that European countries encourage learning at all levels and at all times. But not everyone belongs in the
rigorous university system there.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:38 AM

15. Then maybe the university should expand its studies to include classes that teach in a different way

or at a different pace. A shining star right here in my back yard is a local community college that I plan to send my son to. It offers a degree pathway for those who have developmental disabilities. I can't wait to see how far my son can go with the right kind of education. Maybe he'll be a chemist. Maybe he'll work as a grocery store clerk. I don't know what he'll be capable of. Only time will tell that. But I insist that he have the opportunity to find out.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #15)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:40 AM

16. University in Europe has been described to me as like the military

free to join, mostly free to stay, but not everyone gets in, and not everyone gets the ultimate benefit.

That's just how they run it.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #16)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:48 AM

18. Well I feel for the mothers over there and over here for that matter whose disabled children

are either pushed aside because they can't be Wall Street bankers or treated like pawns here in the US where Duncan seems to think if you just push hard enough every disabled kid can take advanced classes. No one is advocating for the children. It doesn't even seem like anyone cares about the children.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #18)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 04:55 PM

60. It's not so bad....

Actually, dyslexia wouldn't automatically exclude anyone from reaching the Abitur (graduation fro the Gymnasium, which is the prerequisite for going to university). In fact, there are exemptions and altered rules for the tests for students who suffer from conditions like dyslexia.
There is a lively debate going on in Germany right now about "Inklusion", meaning the integration of special schools for special needs children into the regular schools.
So, while there are many faults in the German school system (inadequate funding, different systems in the Bundesländer (states) et. al. come to mind), it's not that heartless and cruel.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:04 PM

29. But you're here promoting the German model. So it makes sense to take it up with you.

I have a relative with dyslexia who is a fine engineer now. But under the German system he probably wouldn't have been admitted to a university, because -- though he was excellent at math and science -- his reading skills were still developing as he entered college.

It was NOT a waste of money to send him to college. It would have been a waste of his talents if he hadn't been able to go because of arbitrary deadlines based on his age.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #29)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:06 PM

30. How do you know that? You don't. Nor do I.

You seem to be implying that the German model only allows the Master Race into its universities. Not true.
It would stand to reason that a good mind that happens to be mildly afflicted by something like dyslexia
would not be excluded out of hand from the German system.

Then again, I don't know, nor do you.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #30)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:11 PM

32. He wasn't mildly affected then. He wouldn't have been able to pass their college-level reading tests

His mother read text books out loud to him all through high school, and others he got through Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic. But sometime during college everything clicked and he's a good reader and writer now.

"It would stand to reason" isn't evidence of anything except you have a lot more faith in the German testing system than I do.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #32)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:13 PM

33. I'm just relating what the German system is like. Sue them, not me. nt

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #33)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:20 PM

36. You were the one who said you'd be happy to have no tuition IF they followed the German

testing model.

Either you meant what you said or you didn't.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #36)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:25 PM

40. Oh, I meant that completely.

And like any system, anywhere, anytime, there will be false positives and false negatives.

Poor students will make it through, and good students will be left out. That's how it goes with
stuff like that.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #32)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 08:47 PM

88. then don't go to school

 

in Germany...problem solved

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Response to 1dogleft (Reply #88)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 08:49 PM

89. Someone here is advocating for the German approach. I think it's less than optimal. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #29)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 12:40 AM

65. No.

In Germany children are NOT excluded from higher education because of dyslexia. They get help and treatment and are visiting regular schools. Your relative could be an engineer here, too.





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Response to OldEurope (Reply #65)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 12:42 AM

66. Good. Because they'd be missing out on some strong engineering talent.

My husband used to be a professor in engineering and it wasn't uncommon for even top students to be significantly less capable in reading and writing than in math.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 08:41 PM

87. thank you n/t

 

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #8)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 12:24 PM

23. It seems like we could go to a system of free community colleges

and state trade schools - basically, make the "next two years" after high school graduation free just like k through 12. For everyone. More community colleges would have to be built, and society should learn to value them, imo.

At 4 year public universities, freshmen and sophomores who graduated in the top "x" percentage of their high school classes (25%?) or show potential based on whatever criteria the school uses, would also receive free tuition.

After the first 60 or 70 hours, students would pay REASONABLE tuition. REASONABLE loans at no more than 3% interest for the life of the loan. Debt forgiveness in extreme cases, and small payments for less extreme cases.

Imo, an educated populace is certainly beneficial to a nation, but at some point, one must think of the cost in terms of benefits accrued. Or do we ration higher education to top students only?

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #8)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:15 PM

34. Maybe they shouldn't be in a four year college

 

Go to a two year college to see if they can handle it.

Not everyone needs to go to college, or should. Or they need to find courses of study that suit them, not force the course of study to change for them.


I wanted to be an engineer. I quickly realized that my brain doesn't work like an engineer's needs to, despite being good at math. I switched to accounting, and found that came naturally to me.

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #34)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:22 PM

38. Unfortunately, a "natural" engineer has to wade through two years of general education

requirements before getting to the major classes where s/he could shine. So his or her performance in community college might not be very indicative of performance in an engineering major.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #38)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:43 PM

44. That's not true. The first two years of an engineering curriculum are actually pretty tough

 

All engineers take Calculus (3 semesters), Differential Equations, Physics (4 semesters), Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Chemistry (2 semesters) in the first two years. All of these are tough courses and if you can make it through them, you should be fine when you get into your major courses. Except for Electrical Engineering and Aeronautical Engineering, I think the last two years are actually a little easier.

I'm a Registered Professional Engineer and I got my degree in Environmental Engineering. That was my experience.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #44)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:00 PM

46. You still have to take general education requirements that can lower your GPA.

And here in my state, you need a very high GPA to get in UW (above 3.6 with some exceptions). So that would weed out many potential engineers who didn't do as well on humanities requirements as they did in math and science.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #46)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:13 PM

48. I actually found the humanities courses to be pretty easy compared to the math and science.

 

They helped bring my GPA up. It's hard for me to believe humanities would keep you out of a four year engineering school if your math and science were strong, but I'm sure there are exceptions here and there.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #48)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:22 PM

49. My relative had dyslexia that was still a problem when he entered college.

It isn't all that uncommon among engineers to have exceptional spatial skills but weaker reading skills.

Fortunately, my relative attended a private engineering college, so he didn't have to worry about being accepted to a university from a 2 year program. But his GPA his first year was below a 3 point because of the humanities classes. Once he was fully into the major program he excelled, but if he'd had to go to a community college first, he wouldn't have been accepted to a public university engineering program. Not with his overall GPA.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #49)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:35 PM

51. Glad it worked out for him, but I think his situation represents an exception.

 

BTW, dyslexia would be a significant obstacle on the technical side as well - you still have to read textbooks to understand the material.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #51)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:37 PM

52. His reading skills improved throughout college. That's why I think the German testing system

is too unforgiving. Everything isn't set in stone at the age of 18 or 19.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #52)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 03:13 PM

57. That's the German way, structured and rigid.

 

It seems like the Germans limit their education funding to a set amount and spend on the best and brightest - gives them a maximum return on their investment. Germans are comfortable with that and since they make up most of the population, it's accepted. Here, many expect the government to make an open-ended commitment to satisfy everyone's educational needs at whatever cost. That approach is not going yield the same results as the Germans get because money gets spent on students that represent long shots in terms of achievement in school and beyond.

Looking at the German economy and standard of living, it's hard to argue they're doing it wrong. I think you want German results without the German discipline, but I don't think that is a reasonable expectation.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #57)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 04:20 PM

59. But the best engineers aren't necessarily the best readers. Some of them actually have dyslexia.

So this isn't about the "best and brightest" engineer; it's about who tests well, on paper, at the age of 18 or 19, which may have little to do with engineering skills.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #59)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 06:16 PM

61. I don't know enough about dyslexia to have an informed opinion.

 

Calculations are only part of engineering practice. The ability to read and understand documents such as specifications, test results and status reports is essential to practicing engineering. You were talking about one individual and I take he can do those things well - is his experience typical for dyslexic people in general?

In any case, I would think that if you are going to get a free education, it's not unreasonable to expect you to demonstrate the ability to read textbooks and take written tests. You'll need those skills in real life to justify the investment the state made in you.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #38)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:29 PM

50. not true, there are lots of bachelor degrees in robotics, AC/DC theory, telecom,

 

Just depends on what industry you want to be in--


honestly we should wipe "engineer" from the language. EVERYONE is an engineer these days LOL-

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #50)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:38 PM

53. You still have to wade through non-technical classes at any community college. nt

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #53)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:39 PM

54. If I remember correctly I had one science course, one math course and some elective

 

most of the classes I took were directly related to the field I wanted to get in to-

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #54)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:52 PM

55. I have a community college student living with me right now,

so I can tell you that the general education requirements are quite extensive, at least in my state.

She's only been able to take a couple classes in her future major and she's nearing the end of her two year degree.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #55)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 03:55 PM

58. that sucks, I guess I got lucky

 

Here is where I went 20 years ago, courses have changed but for an example-



http://www.jeffco.edu/academics/programsdepartments/computer-information-systems/course-syllabi

Computer Information Systems

Course SyllabiThe following links are for Official Course Syllabi, which detail expected learning outcomes, outlines of topics, and methods of instruction and evaluation.

CIS120 Fiber Optics Technology
CIS122 Basic Computer Skills
CIS125 Introduction to Information Systems
CIS129 Programming Logic
CIS133 Microcomputer Software Applications
CIS135 Introduction to PhotoShop
CIS145 Writing for Technology
CIS147 Networking I
CIS150 Introduction to Computer Support
CIS153 Introduction to Visual Basic Programming
CIS154 MS Server I
CIS155 Introduction to Computer Programming
CIS160 Web Development Tools - Dream Weaver and GoLive
CIS165 Programming for the Web
CIS199 CIS Internship
CIS210 Flash
CIS215 Cabling and Equipment Installation
CIS220 MS Server II
CIS235 Advanced PhotoShop and Illustrator
CIS236 SQL and Database Design
CIS243 Advanced Computer Support
CIS247 Networking II
CIS254 MS Server III
CIS255 Web/Graphics Project Portfolio Development
CIS260 Information Systems Security
CIS275 Linux OS
CIS282 Networking/Support Projects
CIS285 e-Commerce Concepts
CIS287 Advanced Web Development

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #50)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 06:20 PM

62. How many could pass the PE test?

 

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #62)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 03:06 AM

68. The PE is a tough test.

Here in California I had to pass 3 tests to get my Civil PE license.

There's the 8-hour, the survey, and the seismic.

Whew...glad THAT is out of the way.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 12:02 PM

81. Yes,

tuition, medical care, etc..should be free and in most industrialized nations, medical is free and tuition is at least affordable.

BTW, wasn't Einstein kicked out of school because they thought he was dumb?

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:59 AM

19. Rather than saying "tough shit", you are too poor

and destined to wage slavery with shitty conditions and no job security regardless of your intelligence and other measures of merit? Or risk a lifetime of debt that may never be repaid? Unless you are the rich in which case you are in and will graduate with honors thanks to your 'legacy'?

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 12:00 PM

21. Or how about we get universal free tuition by de-funding all these worthless wars?

 

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #21)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 12:49 PM

25. And worthless degrees. Right there with you. nt

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #25)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 12:57 PM

27. How do you decide which degrees are "worthless?"

 



--imm

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Response to immoderate (Reply #27)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:01 PM

28. Ones that don't generate jobs.

Under the theory that all higher education should be free, we should take note of the assumption of
European universities, ie, that graduates go out into the economy and help it grow, so as to generate
the tax revenue to fund future waves of students.

Yes, that is the operating assumption in most European universities, although many of them also value
culture, art, and literature. Those have social value as well.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #28)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:22 PM

37. There are jobs that didn't exist when I went to college.

 

There's also ten times more investment bankers, most of which do nothing to promote the economy. I don't think "central planning" is a good strategy for determining the value of education

--imm

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Response to immoderate (Reply #37)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:25 PM

41. I'm not sure any of that is true. nt

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #41)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:52 PM

45. You can look it up.

 

I also think you'll find that most most people wind up working in a field removed from their formal studies. College education is not trade school, it's intellectual expansion, and a chosen "major" may just be a vehicle for that. I'm not saying it's universal, just common.

--imm

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #28)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:34 PM

43. Technology is moving so fast that after a few years a lot of "job generating degrees" might be

 

worthless. A good general degree that gives students a broad background in and insight into western civilization has value, and always will. People can always get additional training for specific machines and gadgets and software and such.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #28)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 12:39 PM

82. People who work hard and people who only shuffle large amounts of money around are destroying earth.

Fuck that.

We ought to be training people to be kind to one another, not to have too many kids, and to walk gently upon the earth.

Medical training and research is useful, many sorts of food and agricultural research are useful (wouldn't it be nice if we could rid ourselves of "factory farm" meats?), but frankly I'd rather have a wandering botanist or musician than a Volkswagen engineer or fossil fuel power plant designer.

The compromise is to give everyone access to a free education. What you see as a bad thing, majors that do not generate jobs and tax revenue, I see as a good thing.

This world needs more dreamers, teachers, gardeners, caregivers, etc., and fewer fossil fuel burning, war mongering, flesh eating monsters. We need people who can walk into a place and convince others it's a better way of living to vaccinate their children, use birth control, and be good stewards of their natural environment; to resist "selling out" to the highest bidder their hopes and dreams and the earth that supports them.

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Response to hunter (Reply #82)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 12:42 PM

83. Why does much of that require college?

How does being a "dreamer" require a college degree?

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #83)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 02:04 PM

84. The most effective dreamers can do the math and they know the science and history.

You don't need formal training in math, science, history, religion, languages, engineering, medicine, law, etc., to be a dreamer, but it helps.

On the other hand, not every seventeen year old is ready for college. There's plenty of technical, skilled, and semi-skilled work to be done that really doesn't require a college degree. But jobs paying livable wages are so scarce and there are so many applicants, college is used as a way of sorting through huge stacks of applications, which is wrong.

A livable minimum wage and and a strong public works program would solve that problem.

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Response to hunter (Reply #84)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 02:14 PM

85. You mean you agree with me? Great.

We used to have string trade schools and people weren't ashamed to go to them. Now, not so much, and that is a shame.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #85)

Sun Oct 5, 2014, 10:46 AM

97. No. I think further education ought to be available to anyone at any time, both trades and academic.

Free of charge to the student, supported by diverting money from the military industrial complex and stagnant pools of individual and corporate wealth. In fields where there are shortages of well trained professionals (teachers, primary care providers, etc.) students ought to be paid to go to school.

Education has low environmental impacts and very high social returns.

From what I read of your posts here on DU, our political philosophies are not the same.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 02:11 PM

47. Isn't that what every college/univ.'s admission office does?

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 05:55 AM

71. As long as the hiring requirements at most companies change as well

The academic system here has been ruined by HR departments that require college degrees for every job under the sun. Colleges and universities have happily gone along with this and have become degree factories.

It started with all the for-profit colleges (strayer, phoenix, Everest, etc) but has spread to traditional institutions. I say this based on my experience as a former professor who taught engineering at one of the largest state universities in the country. I did that for about 12 years and couldn't take any more of it.

A student could get a quality education there if they wanted. But if they just wanted to get a degree to stick on their resume they could do that as well with very little effort or learning required. Just so long as they paid their tuition along the way. The administration cared very little for anything other than the amount of grant money professors brought in and the number of students they pushed through their classes.

In my opinion, this is all stems from the devaluation of a technical education. A BA/BS degree has become required for many jobs where it really isn't necessary.

Sorry for the rant - just a personal sore point with me. Please don't get me wrong - I love education and think that everyone who wishes to pursue it should to whatever extent they wish.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 10:44 AM

2. That is great for the young people in Germany!

I have also heard they are doing very well in alternative energy.

Meanwhile, here in America we have a broken middle class that used to be our spine. And there are still so many people saying "we're number one".

The educational system here seems to revolve around testing and making a profit, not actual education. Imagine where we could be if we gladly provided all children and young adults with the education they need, regardless of the money.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 10:47 AM

4. From a website for german students:

http://www.studis-online.de/StudInfo/Gebuehren/tuition_fees.php

It was last updated in 2013, so Lower-Saxony is still in.

Basically, you pay ~€100 per semester as an administrative fee. (Depends on the university. And usually a rebate for public transportation is included.)

Some universities charge tuition fees
- if you take too many semesters (the official number in the exam-guideline + X)
- if you quit studying midway and enroll with a new subject.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #4)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 10:48 AM

5. Works for me;)

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:00 AM

6. My cousin's wife is an MD

 

Educated for free in Belgium. He was serving in the USAF and they met and married. She is now an ER trauma surgeon in the US. I can't wrap my brain around our clueless approach to higher education. It is a societal investment in our collective future. I guess that's what scares the shit out of the individualist, greedy capitalists. Everything is viewed as a potential profit stream.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:22 AM

11. It doesn't mean that everyone can go to university, though

Indeed, Germany is not even among the top ten developed (OECD) countries for percentage of people with tertiary degrees. This is partly because of the system that divides children into different tracks at a fairly young age:

Although most Germans claim to be against elitism and favoring any social class, their entire educational system is basically a three-class system that divides students into three different tracks: (1) Gymnasium for bright students headed for college, (2) Realschule for the next step down, kids headed for average or better white-collar positions, and (3) Hauptschule for the bottom tier, generally aimed at the trades and blue-collar jobs. By the age of 10 most pupils in Germany have been put on one of these three educational tracks. Although it is possible to switch tracks, this is not very common.

http://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/education/the-german-school-system/


Without an "Abitur" diploma from a gymnasium and passing entrance exams, the free tuition doesn't do you any good.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #11)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:26 AM

13. doesn't sound like a system I want my autistic son in that's for sure.

Of course I don't really want him in the American public school system either. We've put a dollar value on people based on how much they can earn when they grow up and enter the work force. If you don't fit that model you're not worth as much to society.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #13)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:46 AM

17. You might be interested in this

A recently completed (fiction) feature film by a director who raised her own autistic son, now 26:

http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/movies/252788381.html

http://staythengo.com/about-this-film/

I am certain your journey with your son has many challenges, but also many rewards. Good luck!

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Response to frazzled (Reply #17)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:59 AM

20. that sounds like a lovely movie.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #11)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 10:35 AM

76. And where is the money coming from?

Must be coming from somewhere, taxes? In which case are the blue collar people paying for the track 1 people?

Hope the trade schools don't have tuition.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 11:23 AM

12. The american system reflects our values. It's what we voted for

 

When you vote to defund higher education because you don't want to pay more taxes, then high fees will have to make up the difference. Sad reflection of our me only attitude in society.

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Response to taught_me_patience (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 12:01 PM

22. But who will think of the poor Halliburton and Exxon and GE executives?!

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 12:31 PM

24. Are we sure that we won WWII?

Germany has a vibrant middle class. They make high quality products that the world wants. They have a solid pension plans and health care. Now, they have free higher education.

I ask you, "Who really won that war?"

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #24)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:10 PM

31. They lost in the short term

 

but won in the long run. But Germany was a pretty rough place to live for the first 15-20 years after the war. The Allies had bombed a lot of it flat.

That aside, German social policies are far more enlightened than those in the US and generally have been - with one obvious period set to one side - since the time of Bismarck.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #24)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:18 PM

35. You make a most compelling point, Yavin4.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #24)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 10:34 AM

75. They lost

This is why they don't have lebensraum for the Aryan race.

As to the rest, that's par for the course for the EU and Europe.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 12:53 PM

26. That's how smart people handle higher education. In the U.S.

only the wealthy can afford a higher education, for the most part.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:24 PM

39. Other countries provide a hybrid that may sound counter-intuitive to us

If you do well academically, you can go to public university, which is essentially free.
If you don't do well, you can still go to university, but it's private, and it costs money.

What I don't know is whether some of these countries provide a pathway from private to public if you bring up your marks/achievement.

Unfortunately, academic achievement in this country correlates so directly with income level that such a system would essentially just provide yet another subsidy for wealthy families.

That's why we need to close the income inequality gap, reinvigorate the middle class, and strengthen our public primary and secondary schools so privileged kids aren't the only ones who have a shot at achievement.

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Response to RufusTFirefly (Reply #39)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 12:17 AM

64. This whole premise is ridiculous. K-12 is supported by taxes. Why isn't higher education?

Punishing people for not being as intelligent. What a lovely world we live in. Why don't we start charging K-12 students that don't excel while we're at it?

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #64)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 04:24 AM

70. Don't give them any ideas.

They are already starving poor kids and punishing kids who feed poor kids now. The last thing we need to do is give them any more ideas. They just might see your idea and start using it. I wouldn't put it past them.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 01:33 PM

42. Higher Ed

AMEN!! And that's how a nation moves forward, Access to Higher Education should not be a privilege, but a guarantee for citizens of a nation where you share the prosperity and share the burden.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Wed Oct 1, 2014, 03:11 PM

56. Saudi Arabia's universities are also tuition-free

they place a higher priority on education than we do, sadly

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Response to DrDan (Reply #56)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 02:28 AM

67. And we spend our money defending them..... Sad.

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #67)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 07:24 AM

72. as well as other countries in the ME.

In their defense, they also pay for a lot of our military support there. They are the world's 4th largest military spender with many of those billions headed to us. Nearly 10% of their GDP is spent on the military. We are more of a "for-profit contractor" in our role there than a friend/ally.

(not defending military spending - I think the ridiculous amount spent on military is obscene - just looking at the facts)

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Response to DrDan (Reply #56)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 10:41 AM

77. Unless you are a woman.

 

Sure, they encourage men and women to study, but women do not have equal access to education in Saudi Arabia.

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #77)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 11:25 AM

80. free university education is available to women in Saudi

probably not all fields of study are available, but still education is available.

The largest women's university in the world is located in Riyadh.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #80)

Wed Oct 8, 2014, 10:39 AM

99. "probably not all fields of study are available, but still..."

 

Yea, I was talking about equal access to education. You kind of highlight that inequality with your own post. I can't imagine you actually meant to sound the way that sounds... "but still education is available". And that bit of education is only available if her guardian thinks she is deserving. But I guess having the largest women's university in the world makes up for not letting them have the same rights to education (or many other rights) as their men.





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Response to JTFrog (Reply #99)

Wed Oct 8, 2014, 11:47 AM

100. You do realize they attend tuition-free

Not a lot different from our class-based inequality is it

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Response to DrDan (Reply #100)

Wed Oct 8, 2014, 02:15 PM

101. Free tuition doesn't impress me much in this example.

 

I'm still not exactly sure how to move past "well they may not get to study what they want, but hey at least they get to study what a bunch of guys and old beliefs dictate they should study for free". I don't have much love for our tuition based system here, but I do think it's vastly, vastly different.



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Response to JTFrog (Reply #101)

Wed Oct 8, 2014, 02:19 PM

102. How many male-only colleges do we still have? Quite a few

The SA university has a vast curriculum, for what it's worth.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #56)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 10:44 AM

78. Argentina too. n/t

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 12:13 AM

63. k&r

 

A dupe just got posted http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025610231 so I'll kick yours back to the top

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 04:15 AM

69. Filed under things that would never happen in backassward America.

Dammit, we will never have nice things. There MUST be a way to make people not want to be willfully stupid Republican assholes.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 07:30 AM

73. Germany goes forwards

while British politicians are taking this country backwards.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 10:31 AM

74. I was born into German immigrant family

 

I always knew Germany would be a model for this world despite its history in early to mid early 20th century. Phasing out nuclear and coal was an A plus. Tuition-free universities? Above and beyond A plus. I would dare to say that German would be the first one to pioneered nuclear fusion technology, not U.S.

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Response to TRoN33 (Reply #74)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 11:11 AM

79. Another A+ for requiring corporate boards to be 50% workers.

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 05:55 PM

86. Investing in their collective future.

 

Putting the brightest people out there and not just the wealthiest gives you the strongest system.

Good on them.

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Response to toby jo (Reply #86)

Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:02 AM

95. Not sure they are investing.

As opposed to just removing a source of revenue. Are they replacing this source of revenue with free Govt money?

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Sat Oct 4, 2014, 09:03 PM

90. That's great!

I loved Germany...it was the Army that sucked!

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Sat Oct 4, 2014, 09:08 PM

91. “Tuition fees are socially unjust..."

 

What a bunch of godless(forgive me ayn)commies!

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Sat Oct 4, 2014, 09:25 PM

92. Would everyone be comfortable telling people they have no right to a college education?

Colleges and Universities would be reserved for those deemed capable of handling the courses.

Socioeconomics would play a part in this as well. The rich are better able to afford high quality education and prep for a university.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Sun Oct 5, 2014, 02:16 AM

93. We spen billions on prisons, our criminal justice system and police.

If we spent an equal amount on tuition grants to students, we might and I believe that the amounts we spend on prisons, criminal justice and police would decline drastically.

i also believe that we spent yet another equal sum on free pre-school education starting at the age of 3 at least half-days we could halve the amounts we spend on law enforcement, prison and criminal justice.

A penny saved is a penny earned.

And by the way, all those liberal arts courses that are now viewed as such a waste of time? If we spent more on making sure that all students take a more of those along with their courses that prepare them for jobs, our crime rate would also go down.

We could especially cut drug use and the crime that accompanies drug dependency if we provided more money for pre-school education and post-secondary education. That's my opinion. I would like to see at least one state try my ideas and see what the result would be.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Sun Oct 5, 2014, 04:59 AM

94. Will the German Govt

Replace that source of income with money from education funds?

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Response to grahamhgreen (Original post)

Sun Oct 5, 2014, 09:30 AM

96. Well done Germany ..

No fee's in Scotland either

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Response to Lenomsky (Reply #96)

Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:18 PM

98. If we can afford war, we can afford education.

 

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