John Crawford set air rifle down before police shot him

[tiredtoo]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/john-crawford-air-rifle-video_n_5878022.html
Strange, the video is currently unavailable.

[Egnever]

1. yea but he was running back for it

Cops had no way of knowing it was a bb gun. I wouldn't have indicted either.

I likely wouldn't have shot if I was that cop either but I can understand why he did.

[tiredtoo]

2. i have not seen video

do not know what he was doing. also my concern is where is the video.

[Egnever]

3. I just watched it from your link

[Crabby Appleton]

5. I watched it from your link

don't know why it won't play for you. I can see why there was no indictment.

[FarPoint]

35. I posted the full video link.

It's in General Discussion Forum.

[rustydog]

4. It sure looks like it. he drops the rifle,

runs behind the end of the aisle then appears to lunge towards the weapon as officers approach him.

If police had no choice. You do not let the subject take physical control of the weapon, you stop him from doing so.

[arcane1]

7. According to this link, he dropped the rifle because of the gunshots

Details are difficult to discern during this portion of the video, but Piepmeier explains that Crawford fell to the ground and dropped the gun after the two shots, then ran down the aisle, although police do not fire again.


http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/24/3571699/grand-jury-wont-charge-cops-in-wal-mart-killing-even-as-video-reveals-victim-never-pointed-his-gun/

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. I find that rendition hard to believe ...

if he drop the toy when the (two) shots were fired, and no other shots were fired, that would have been when he was hit ... how does one explain Crawford still standing enough to re-enter the aisle towards the gun, then turn to exit, before going to his knees, then to his stomach.

Secondly, I find it hard to believe the cop fired from out of the scene (more than 20 feet away); but did not fire when Crawford re-entered the aisle (less than 5 feet away and Crawford headed towards the gun).

[arcane1]

12. It does seem more likely that he was shot when the police were right up on him.

Though I still can't figure out why he'd go back after the gun

[brush]

46. Don't think he was going back after the gun but . . .

trying to dodge being shot again because he didn't know what direction the shots were coming from.

He knew it was a toy so of course he wasn't going back to the gun.

[arcane1]

50. Good point!

[MohRokTah]

16. The cop is a murderer.

I would have indicted.

Murder, plain and simple.

[Comrade Grumpy]

23. So you shoot anyone holding a gun, real or otherwise? Or just scary black guys.

[brush]

47. He wasn't going back for the gun . . .

he knew it was a toy.

He was trying to get away from being shot again because he didn't know which direction the shots were coming from.

[arcane1]

6. That was bizarre all the way around.

It seemed odd to be standing there in one spot swinging the gun up and down, but 100 times more odd to go running back for it right as the cops were arriving. I have no idea WTF was going on there!

[hfojvt]

25. supposedly he had already been fatally shot by that time

According to the presenter, he was shot twice, dropped the gun, and ran around the corner, then ran back, but no further shots were fired.

Having suffered a fatal wound to the abdomen, it seems likely to me that he really did not know what he was doing at that point.

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. After watching the video ...

My question is at what point Crawford was shot? Reports have it that he was shot twice, once in the elbow and once below his rib cage.

Because at the :53 mark, he puts toy down and his headed out the aisle; at the :55 mark, he has crawled out of view; at the :56 mark, the officer enters the scene; at the :58 mark, Crawford re-enters the aisle (towards the toy), stops, turns to exit the aisle; at the 1:00 mark, Crawford goes down to his knees; at the 1:06 mark, Crawford falls to his stomach (suddenly).

Clearly Crawford hadn't been shot prior to the :58 mark, and it does not appear he was shot immediately after he turned to exit the aisle.

Crawford may have been shot (possibly/likely in the elbow) at the 1:00 mark, when he went down to his knees. He was definitely shot at the 1:06 mark ... but at that point he was no longer a threat.

If he had been shot at the :58 mark, I could understand the No Bill because the officer could have reasonable believed that Crawford was trying to get the gun. But any point after that, Crawford was in retreat.

[Crabby Appleton]

14. If you watch this video

with the 911 call synched with the video, you can hear the two shots in rapid succession before he scrambles around behind the isle end. shooting occurs around 3/4 of the way through. on edit, at around 8;26;57;20


http://www.whio.com/videos/news/911-call-surveillance-video-together/vCtDnb/

[1StrongBlackMan]

20. Watching this video ...

synced with the 911 call ... it seems pretty clear the cop shot on sight. The only way I can understand this No Bill is if the GJ holds that L/E is not required to reasonably judge threat levels before acting ... IOWs, the GJ is okay with shoot on sight encounters.

I would hope that if I were the 911 caller, I would feel partially responsible ... early in the video, when the woman and two kids went into the aisle, the caller says Crawford pointed the gun at the "two kids" ... when he did no such thing (I watched that segment 4 times) ... Crawford didn't even turn as to acknowledge them.

I suspect hearing that/having that reported ... the officer's "edge" was heightened.

[OilemFirchen]

9. Here's the entire surveillance video as presented:

http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/

The police enter the frame at 16:58.

[rollin74]

13. Crawford was definitely an idiot for casually swinging the air rifle around

and pointing it down aisles in a store

that model of air gun (MK-177) is intended to resemble a real rifle (Bushmaster ACR)

[MohRokTah]

17. So, picking up an item for sale in a store and carrying it around is being an "idiot"

Gotcha.

The cops are murders.

[rollin74]

19. anyone who handles a firearm or an air rifle that looks like a firearm....

the way he did is asking for trouble (including the real possibility of being shot)

most people won't quickly be able to distinguish that air rifle from an actual firearm

to swing the air rifle around and point it (multiple times) down the aisle of a Wal Mart is stupid imo

there were other people around and it provoked a reaction (cops being called)

[MohRokTah]

21. Yeah, tell that to the ammosexuals who pull that shit every day.

AND, Ohio is an OPEN CARRY STATE!!!

By your logic, this ammosexual should have been set upon by two dozen cops and immediately shot full of holes:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/open-carry-activist-tennessee-school

The cops are murderers.

Trusting cops will only get you killed.

[rollin74]

22. I don't open carry nor am I a fan of open carry. I think it's a bad idea

the photo in the link you provided shows the firearm pointed downward which was not the case in much of the video of John Crawford and the MK-177

http://www.whio.com/videos/news/surveillance-video-john-crawford-iii-at-walmart/vCtDmK/

[MohRokTah]

26. I watched the full video. The cops are murderers.

If on a jury, I would vote to convict AND vote for the death penalty.

[rollin74]

27. if you were called to be on the jury, would you even wait and watch the trial first??

my point was, and remains, it's stupid to wave what appears to be a gun around in Wal Mart. Bad things are likely to happen if you do.

that is all

[MohRokTah]

28. I hear your point and dismiss it as irrelevent. eom

[FarPoint]

44. Ohio is an open carry state...

So, no technically not that unusual to be stupid.

[yeoman6987]

38. No chance of that

Grand jury who had the entire story disagrees with you 100 percent.

[TransitJohn]

30. It doesn't matter. He was committing no crime. And even if it were a firearm and not an air rifle

he has rights to possess it in that store.

[spanone]

45. if you can die handling a product for sale, they should be out of reach.

[FarPoint]

37. Hey, I tell people that being stupid is not threatening...

Does not present immanent danger. Let's keep in perspective, that John Crawford was clueless as to the 911 call or that anyone was paying any attention to him at all. He was in his own zone and clueless. Completely blindsided by the cops.

Where was the threat? Was there immanent danger posed to anyone? Did the cops give John any chance to respond to commands? Where were the hostages or bystanders who were said to be in danger from an active shooter? ...Right...there was no threats or immanent danger or active shooter...just a Walmart shopper.

[MohRokTah]

39. And the cops were completely incompetent and followed no preocedure.

They shot first, didn't bother trying to stop him.

They MURDERED him.

I guarantee you, had it been a white man that was "Ronald Ritchied", that white man would be alive.

[TransitJohn]

29. That's a fucked up post.

Victim blaming. I swing shit for sale on store shelves all the time in my arms in the store, and don't get executed for it. But I'm white.

[840high]

31. You swing rifles and guns?

[MohRokTah]

40. I swing toys.

It was a toy. For sale. In the store.

[Straw Man]

56. An air rifle is not a toy.

I swing toys.

It was a toy. For sale. In the store.

An air rifle is not a toy and should never be treated as such.

My take? The cop shot too soon, without giving the guy a chance to comply with commands. Why? I don't know. Cop was jumpy? Racist? Bloodthirsty? No one knows, probably not even the cop himself.

There are three possible outcomes: everybody walks away, cop gets shot, other guy gets shot. It's a split second decision. What would you do?

"Open carry" is a red herring. The guy was brandishing, and that's illegal everywhere. Whether or not he pointed the gun at someone, he repeatedly brought it into firing position. He can clearly be seen doing that on the surveillance video. A relevant question is whether this was reported to the responding officers.

[hedgehog]

58. Which department is it in - toys or guns?

[Straw Man]

62. Sporting goods, next to the actual firearms.

Which department is it in - toys or guns?

Sporting goods -- you can see that in the video. The real guns are locked in a cabinet in the foreground. In WalMarts here in the Northeast, I've seen the air guns locked in cabinets too. Apparently that was not the policy in this store.

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. "an idiot"...Goddamn, that's vile

Even in the most Crawford-at-fault reading, a tragedy happened here in which an innocent young man was killed senselessly.

For you, he's "definitely an idiot."

What a horrible fucking post.

God. Horrible. What kind of person are you?

[MohRokTah]

41. I've seen this reaction elsewhere on the web.

Usually, it seems to be ammosexuals having this reaction.

Mostly because Crawford was black. White people pulling this shit in Walmarts with REAL guns loaded with REAL ammunition never encounter anything approaching this.

[brush]

48. I watched the vide and didn't see him point the toy gun down the aisle

What I saw was a guy mimicking drill team gun movements.

He wasn't threatening anyone.

The racist a hole who called the police and lied about what was going on, calling himself a Marine —in an open-carry state no less, should be jailed along with the cop who shot Crawford immediately on sight.

No indictment is a joke and an indictment on that town, state and our country.

Black men are targets now for cops and busybody racists.

[Live and Learn]

54. The only thing Crawford did that was idiotic

was shopping at WalMart but that shouldn't carry a death sentence.

[TeeYiYi]

61. I wonder...

...what happened to the woman he came in with. He stayed with her for the first 8 minutes or so, before wandering off with his phone still glued to his ear. I also wonder who he was talking to.

The gun he picked up was in the sporting goods aisle, right next to the locked gun case. It wasn't in the toy aisle like some have suggested.

He probably drew attention to himself when he took a gun from the gun section into the pet food aisle.

He didn't try to get the gun again after he'd laid it down. He saw the other cop running toward him on the next aisle so he tried to run back to where he had just come from but found himself cornered...and then subsequently dead. The first cop murdered him in cold blood.

My observations from watching the linked 17+ minute video.

TYY

[rollin74]

15. sounds like 2 shots fired at about 1:31 of the video

Crawford still had possession of the air rifle at that point

he dropped the weapon as a result of the shots

no shots fired after that

[MohRokTah]

18. If cops react that way to a guy carrying a BB gun in an open carry stated

This asshole should have been swarmed by twenty cops and killed by 100 shots:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/open-carry-activist-tennessee-school

[Straw Man]

57. The key is brandishing.

If cops react that way to a guy carrying a BB gun in an open carry stated

This asshole should have been swarmed by twenty cops and killed by 100 shots:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/open-carry-activist-tennessee-school

That asshole is Leonard Embody. He is well-known among Second Amendment supporters as a shit-stirrer and generally, yes, an asshole. The consensus is that he is trying to provoke an illegal arrest and subsequently profit from a lawsuit. At the very least, he is an attention addict. He knows the laws very well and is careful to stay within them so as not to jeopardize his potential payout. He carries -- he doesn't brandish. There is a clear legal difference.

[Vattel]

24. The claim is that he ignored police instructions. What were the instructions?

[Trekologer]

34. Bang bang?

Were those the instructions?

[MohRokTah]

42. +9,000,000,000 eom

[uncle ray]

32. so, where's the video of the 911 caller?

[FLPanhandle]

33. Based on the video, there is no way an indictment would be handed down.

We know that the gun was a toy but the police responding didn't.

I'm against the police being armed because of the old "when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail" saying. A little time and slowly entering the scene would have shown no one was shot, he was calm and just playing around.

The police didn't take the time to properly assess the situation and opened fire because they thought he was armed.

No way they can be charged legally.

Morally, however, they failed.

[MohRokTah]

43. HOLD THE FUCK ON!

This is Oh-FUCKING-Hio.

This is an OPEN FUCKING CARRY STATE!

Even IF he's openly carrying a weapon and police approach, HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO DO SO UNDER THE LAW!!!!

White ammosexuals pull this shit EVERY FUCKING DAY IN OHIO, AND THEY ARE NOT SHOT DEAD BY THE POLICE!!!!!

But a black man with a toy, it's open season according to the racist fucking cops.

ALL COPS BEAR THIS SHAME, EVERY LAST FUCKING ONE OF THEM!!!!!

Why?

Because not a single cop has criticized these murderers.

NOT ONE!

[brush]

49. AMEN!

Thanks for explaining in your post to the ones defending the cops actions that Ohio is an open-carry state.

Crawford was carrying a weapon, a toy, openly in an open-carry state but they shot him on sight.

Wake up defenders, cops can be wrong and in this instance they were wrong for opening fire. The killer should be charged along with the racist busybody who called into 911.

[valerief]

52. ^^^THIS^^^

[Live and Learn]

55. What? He wasn't threatening anybody.

Even if it were a real gun there would be no reason to shoot him based on this video.

[valerief]

51. Holy shit. They just killed him in cold blood. He didn't even have the gun. nt

[Rocky888]

53. John crawford

Was oblivious to his surroundings because he was talking on the phone. I watched it several times and wondered why he was just standing in one spot and swinging the gun. Then it hit me, he was so engrossed in the phone conversation that he was having, he probably didn't even realized what he was doing at the time. Also, it didn't appear that cops gave him any warning, they just shot him. If you listen to 911 operater, her whole tone of voice and urgency changes when ritchie tells her he is black. Ron ritchie lied and had this man killed. Ohio is an " open carry state". Unless you are black!!! Also, prosecutor repeatedly called the gun a "rifle", instead of BB gun, or air rifle, a little word trick lawyers use to sway their jurors. This whole thing makes me sick. It was so preventable. Ron Ritchie should be investigated. And Mr. Crawfords family should take him to civil court.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. I just get the feeling they're training these guys to shoot first, ask questions later.

There was a 12 yo kid in Northern CA last year or so who was on the side of the road with an airsoft gun, same deal.