Even if Brown did commit robbery...

[JJChambers]

And even if he did assault the clerk, what's to say he was beating the policeman who shot him? Just the policeman's word?

[IMG][/IMG]

[Nye Bevan]

1. Just because someone is a suspect in a robbery

does not mean that it is OK to summarily execute them.

[JaneyVee]

46. Meanwhile, he was wearing different clothes.

Store footage shows different clothes than he was murdered in.

[TeeYiYi]

52. They look like the same clothes and shoes to me...

WARNING: Graphic photo at link. (Close the space between dot and jpg.)

http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/michael-brown-1. jpg

TYY

[notadmblnd]

60. What about the facial hair?

You think he shaved it off immediately after the robbery?

[TeeYiYi]

72. Please don't misunderstand...

I believe that Michael Brown was murdered and I sincerely doubt that he had anything to do with 'stolen cigars.' I'm firmly on Michael Brown's side and that of his family and the people of Ferguson.

I don't know about facial hair. I haven't looked at the images from that perspective. My comment was about the clothing in the video as compared to the crime scene photo. They look to be the same to me. His shorts are down to his thighs in the crime scene photo and they appear to be 'sagging' in the store video. The color and style of shirt, shorts and shoes appear to be the same.

TYY

[notadmblnd]

75. I could not tell from the shoes

In the pics posted in the thread the shoes are those ugly slider sandals that a lot of guys wear. In the picture of him lying dead on the pavement, I can't make out the shoes clearly.

[Nye Bevan]

81. The shirt looks the same but to me the pants look different (nt)

[SaltyBro]

2. That is not even a real assault on the clerk.

We all did stupid stuff when we were younger, we didn't get shot for it.

[JJChambers]

4. I didn't commit robbery, punch clerks or punch policemen.

[frylock]

42. good for you, citizen

[mythology]

5. Those pictures absolutely show a real assault

It indicates that we may not have an accurate description of Michael Brown as a gentle giant as Rev. Sharpton described him.

There isn't enough evidence to say yet where the fault lies. A full inquiry may not result in the expected result of the cop being a racist murdered as many assume.

You say everybody does stupid things as a kid. What it one of his stupid things was trying to treat the cop like the pictures indicated he treated the store clerk? The person in these photos shows a willingness to shove people around.

[JaneyVee]

47. Pics show him wearing shorts, crime scene

Showed him dead wearing pants sneakers.

[TeeYiYi]

56. His shorts...

...have been pulled down to his thighs in the crime scene photo.

TYY

[WinkyDink]

6. 1. It is an assault; looks like battery, too. 2. Crimes aren't mere "stupid stuff." 3. The murdered

needs no lame-arse "defenses" such as yours.

[JJChambers]

8. I agree. We are not doing ourselves any favors by trying to minimize or cover up Brown's violence.

It really is immaterial to whether or not the shooting was justified.

[Atman]

9. Did he deserve to be shot and killed?

That's the question. Restrain him, take him to court, let him face justice. Dying for a petty crime is not "justice."

[hamsterjill]

16. No! Let me stop you right there.

This is definitely an assault. It is NOT okay to walk into a store and bully or harm a store clerk.

Let's not even go there. It is NOT okay to grab someone by their clothes and push them around. It is NOT okay to pass that type of behavior off as "stupid stuff" that younger people do.

[cwydro]

34. Hey if someone did that to me

I'd damn well consider it an assault

[phil89]

40. Not a real assault?

You're really not helping. Would you think that was on to do to someone in your family?? Unbelievable

[randome]

3. Unfortunately, this plays into 'reasonable doubt' in most people's minds.

It doesn't excuse what happened but without solid visual evidence of one sort or another...this is all messed up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[el_bryanto]

7. And that's it exactly

Most people will go to their default opinions - i.e. "This proves that Brown was guilty." or "This just shows how corrupt and desperate the police are." I don't know - it seems like there are a lot of issues around how this police department handled this case and their relationship with the community they are supposed to be protecting. That's not in doubt even if Brown's guilt/innocence is.

Bryant

[randome]

11. Or even "It's too complicated. I don't want to think about it."

Cameras on all public servants. The vast majority do their jobs but we need more accountability.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[el_bryanto]

12. Well actually that very succinctly expresses my opinion

It is complicated

I don't want to think about it

But being a good citizen means you have to think about complicated things you don't want to think about sometimes. Even more so for a public official.

Bryant

[hamsterjill]

19. I agree.

I see that very thing happening here on DU this morning.

Wouldn't it be a unique situation if minds were not made up until the investigation - a REAL investigation - was conducted and completed.

[L0oniX]

26. 'reasonable doubt' about killing someone while the person is down on the ground after being shot?

[randome]

51. Unless there is video, people will follow their preconceptions.

There are witnesses but their credibility can be called into question.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Xyzse]

10. I was looking at this picture and compared it to the picture of him laying down.

There is no way that the two are the same person, if they are basing it by clothes.

The color of the pants alone, as well as the shoes are completely different.

[MohRokTah]

14. It's Brown. eom

[Xyzse]

15. The guy in the "assault" picture? It sure doesn't look like it.

From the Red Cap, to the shoes, to the length and color of the "shorts/pants". It just does not look the same to me.

[MohRokTah]

18. Looks identical to me.

100% match.

[Xyzse]

21. We'll agree to disagree, since I just don't see it.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/michael-brown/#prettyPhoto
Which has the photo.
The shoes are different, the pants are completely different and a much lighter color.
No "Red" baseball cap either.

[MohRokTah]

22. Baseball caps are easily ditched.

Could have come off when he was trying to get away from the murdering cop, too.

Pants are identical, just a bit lower on his body than in the store.

Sandals are precisely identical. In fact, I'd call it unique. There's no way there would be two people with such identical footwear in photos taken within 30 minutes of each other.

[Xyzse]

25. Too much of a stretch, and no, sandals are not unique. They don't even really look alike to me.

The pants, are definitely different, the one in the store is far far darker.

Regardless, I think we both agree that even if he was the person in the store (which I don't think should matter, and I still don't think he is(I may yet be proven wrong)), this does not excuse or diminish the liability of the police officer, or how wrong this is.

[Ms. Toad]

29. You do realize how lighting impacts how things look in photographs, right? n/t

[Xyzse]

30. I do realize that as well. It just doesn't look the same to me.

Either way, I can't go with 100% certainty.

[Ms. Toad]

37. Look at the bottom left crime photo

with the dark underwear peeking out - and then look at the death photo, where the pants have fallen down further. You can also count the white bands in the sandals - there are 5 in both the death photo and the crime scene.

You're fooling yourself if you don't see a striking similarity.

[Xyzse]

38. I do see a similarity. I just don't see it as the same.

[Ms. Toad]

91. Johnson admitted it through his attorney.

FERGUSON, Mo. (AP) - The friend who was with Michael Brown when he was shot and killed by a police officer near St. Louis over the weekend is reportedly confirming that he and Brown had taken part in the theft of cigars from a convenience store that day.

That word comes from the attorney for Dorian Johnson, speaking to MSNBC. Police in Ferguson had earlier announced that Brown was suspected of taking cigars from the convenience store in what was described as a "strong-arm robbery."

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/attorney-dorian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/

[jberryhill]

62. It's brighter outside than in the store

Cheap surveillance cameras don't have a lot of dynamic range, and the scene in the store is backlit.

[Xyzse]

65. I took that also in to account. I am not saying that it isn't possible that it is him, just that I

Don't think it is.

There is always that possibility, which is why I may be wrong, but it just doesn't look the same to me.
Even when you consider the light of the store.

What I do want to see is more on the upper left hand corner, which gives the time and date of the cameras.

[jberryhill]

73. Ultimately, it does not matter one way or the other

Because the officer at the scene was not detaining him on suspicion of the robbery in the first place.

The point is that even if it was him, the use of deadly force was not justified.

[Xyzse]

80. Yeah, I think everyone agrees with that.

I just dislike this character assasination when it isn't even proven.

[gblady]

33. this article called it.....

a dispute over jaywalking.....nothing mentioned about stealing.

[Xyzse]

36. That is very true too.

[Ms. Toad]

41. One of my questions - which I haven't seen answered anywhere -

is whether the officer had seen the robbery scene photos - or had heard a description of the pair.

Shooting him was inexcusable, and from everything I have heard the officer should be relieved of duty and charged with some form of murder/manslaughter.

But if the police officer had reason to believe (because he had seen the photos, had heard the descriptions, or possibly even recognized the individuals) that he was encountering two individuals who had (at a minimum) just assaulted a store owner, the heat of the initial interaction over jaywalking is at least more understandable.

[Ms. Toad]

28. Looks very much the same to me.

Tan pants, falling somewhere between knee and ankle, shoes with alternating light and dark stripes, a white/light color shirt.

Are you perhaps confusing the color of his dark underwear (very visible in the death photo) with the color of his pants? (Not to mention that the dark underwear from the death scene is also peeking out above his shorts in the bottom left photo from the robbery scene.

We don't have to weave unbelievable tales about how it might be someone else, or it was, but it was just "dumb stuff" - not assault/battery/robbery. Even if absolutely true, none of those justify the police killing - any more than being a prostitute would justify rape.

[jberryhill]

71. "Even if absolutely true"

Correct. It does not seem that the officer was detaining him for that incident in the first place.

[Ms. Toad]

77. I haven't seen anything one way or another -

about whether the officer who shot him was aware of his alleged involvement in the robbery. If he was, it would shed some light on what appeared to be a major overreaction to jaywalking.

It doesn't justify shooting - but an officer who believed he was encountering someone who was encountering someone he believed to have just robbed a store in an altercation which included a physical interaction has more reason to be wary than someone chasing kids out of the street.

[MohRokTah]

13. This is what will let a cop get away with executing a man over cigars in the streets.

Cop got to be judge and jury and handed down a sentence of immediate execution while the kid had his hands in the air.

[JustAnotherGen]

27. This is exactly

[PowerToThePeople]

17. On Noes! He took a pack of Swisher Sweets!! OMG, Shoot him!! n/t

[hamsterjill]

20. No, he shouldn't have been shot for taking a pack of Sweeter Sweets.

But he shouldn't be stealing things from a convenience store either, or assaulting a store clerk. That applies to whomever is depicted in the still photos, whether it be Michael Brown or someone who looks like Michael Brown.

[JJChambers]

23. Are they saying he was shot for stealing?

[Atman]

31. Minor point...it's SWISHER Sweets.

But Brown is still dead.

[PowerToThePeople]

32. thank you

the brain and the typing fingers had a disconnect.

[Robbins]

35. Let's be Honest

The Cop will get off for murder,and nothing will happen to him Inless justice department pursures civil rights violations charges.

If Michael Brown's friend did tell FBI he did take the cigars I am inclinded to believe him although he denyed it was strong armed robbery.

I don't care if he sold cigars or not.This doesn't justify murder or the reaction by Police to protests.

[jwirr]

39. These pictures are not very good. What was Brown wearing when he was killed? Do they match

the picture because he did not have time to go home and change? Did he have anything on him that he had stolen in this robbery? There has to be more proof that a picture of a big black man pushing a clerk around. Is the person he was walking with in these pictures any where?

And even if it is him the policeman still has no right to play judge, jury and executioner.

[intaglio]

43. But the guy who shot Brown had not seen those images

He had received a radio call.

There is no way he could be confident he was stopping the right guy

[JJChambers]

45. Well I don't know about that

A clothing and physical description (Brown was 6'4, 300 lbs), and the proximity to the crime scene, direction of travel, etc, could all have added up to the officer having plenty of reason to stop and identify Brown. Brown's reaction to that legal stop is what remains disputed.

[intaglio]

48. OK, go into a Missouri town

on a hot day, and have a look round to see how many people match or are close to the type of generic description used in such police broadcasts.

[JJChambers]

49. It was the same guy. Its hard to argue that the officer didn't have a reason to stop him.

He had just committed a robbery.

[intaglio]

54. GET F'n EVIDENCE

Not just spout the party line.

You have no evidence whatsoever it was the same person. All you have 4 grainy images of someone wearing similar clothes to Brown and the Officer who shot him did not even have those.

[JJChambers]

57. It's confirmed, man.

Same height, weight, clothing, and his friend (the witness to the shooting, Mr. Johnson, who was also involved in the robbery, confirmed it was him as well to the FBI).

[intaglio]

67. No, I said evidence not an argument from authority

And again the officer who shot HAD NOT SEEN THE VIDEO.

A man was executed and the best excuse that the police can come up with is that the shots were fired on the suspicion that he might have been involved in a robbery.

[philosslayer]

44. WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO

These are cherry-picked stills. The young man tried to leave the store and was rudely accosted by the clerk. I for one can't blame him for pushing back.

[phil89]

53. Yeah I don't think the clerk

Was in the wrong there. Just a smaller guy getting pushed around for rightly trying to defend his store.

[philosslayer]

59. Mr. Brown was guilty of "shopping while Black"

He couldn't even leave the store without being accused of something and accosted. If anyone should be charged with anything, its the clerk.

[Travis_0004]

68. Not when he actually stole something

The clerk didnt stop him for being black he stopped him for stealing merchandise.

[philosslayer]

76. How do you know he stole something?

Its just the clerks word.

[jberryhill]

83. Or for not having ID to purchase tobacco products

If he was attempting to purchase tobacco products and did not have ID, that could also lead to a confrontation of some kind.

[Enrique]

55. where is the video? n/t

[Go Vols]

92. here

[arcane1]

64. Is there a link to it somewhere?

[NuclearDem]

50. Even if, still not worthy of a death sentence.

[notadmblnd]

58. that man does not even look like that child Mike Brown

[JJChambers]

61. Its already confirmed through Brown's friend that it was him.

The clothing and height and weight match.

The reason it doesn't look like the pictures we have seen of Brown, who was an adult, not a child, is because the pictures released are from when he was younger.

[uponit7771]

66. anyone got a link to friends claim?

Where is the claim by mikes friend?

[notadmblnd]

69. And he kept a razor in his pocket to shave with immediately after?

[Mojo Electro]

63. It's just really disappointing.

It really seemed this time like we would finally make some progress on the police state in America. People were waking up, and were outraged.

That will probably all go out the window now, while all the boot lickers say "SEE???"

It really, really sucks.

[JJChambers]

70. Maybe next time....

[Mojo Electro]

84. If it's a white guy next time

then maybe we'll have a chance.

[JJChambers]

85. We will see soon enough.

[Mojo Electro]

88. As much as this sucks

It's still possible that this office will be held accountable.

I still hold out hope that what happened with Al Jazeera will reap consequences.

Bit this was our best shot.

Sad.

[jberryhill]

90. Well, nobody shot Winona Ryder for shoplifting

[jberryhill]

78. "what's to say he was beating the policeman who shot him?"

That's not a difficult question to eventually resolve on the basis of forensic evidence.

[JJChambers]

79. The police officer could fake injuries after-the-fact.

[jberryhill]

82. The officer would fake injuries on Brown's body?

So if the autopsy evidence shows, for example, wounds on Brown's knuckles, you would say that the police officer faked them?

I think one of the witnesses would have noticed the police officer getting out of the car to fake wounds on Brown's hands, don't you?

When you punch someone, you bruise your knuckles. The edema is going to progress.

If you punch someone, and shortly thereafter your circulatory system stops, the wound to your knuckles is pretty much going to establish the time interval between when you punched someone and when your circulatory system stopped.

In other words, the condition of the wound you would have on your hand from punching someone yesterday, versus punching them a minute ago, are different.

[JJChambers]

86. Is it possible to hit someone and not sustain an injury?

[jberryhill]

89. This is your OP:

"what's to say he was beating the policeman who shot him? Just the policeman's word?"

Answers to those questions are:

1. If an examination of Mr. Brown's body indicated fresh offensive wounds, it would be evidence of him having recently hit someone.

2. If an examination of Mr. Brown's body indicated absence of offensive wounds, one would have to ask a medical examiner whether that meant he did not hit someone.

I am not a medical examiner. Finding "something" may be indicative of "something". Finding "nothing" may or may not be indicative of "something" or "nothing".

Your question was directed to whether there could be any evidence of him "beating the policeman". Yes, there can be evidence of having beat someone, and how long ago one may have beat someone.

It is also important to understand what the word "evidence" means, as distinguished from what the word "proof" means, since people tend to confuse the use of those two words.

As to "Is it possible to hit someone and not sustain an injury?" I have no earthly idea. Many things are "possible". As a proposition, I would believe, absent further education on the point, that if one person was to hit another person without a weapon in a manner sufficient to inflict injury, then it seems likely one would have a corresponding injury of some kind.

Physics doesn't care if you slam your face into my fist, or whether I slam my fist into your face. Either way, it is a collision between bones wrapped in skin.

Various kinds of physical confrontations are reconstructed or rendered more or less likely from physical evidence all of the time, and some wounds can be characterized as defensive (such as stab wounds on the palms of a person trying to avoid being stabbed) or offensive (such as bruising to the knuckles of someone who has punched someone else).

It may also be that the evidence is indeterminate. If your skin is found under my fingernails, I may have been trying to restrain you, or I may have been trying to scratch you.

[TheKentuckian]

87. This thread makes me sick, too many people who are looking for an excuse to write this one off

Another "good kill" because if a black kid isn't immaculate, if there is any possible room to take any imaginable reach at a theory to back a cop then it is taken like a fucking highway.

Any "boxes in the garage" will do, if your black and your transformation to "thug" will be complete.