Yes, it is getting worse still in Eastern Ukraine.

[another_liberal]

Some are now saying Lugansk is on track to become Eastern Ukraine's Grozny. It is worth noting, however, that this will be a city devastated and left nearly uninhabitable by Kiev's hired fascist militias, fascist militias whose weapons, munitions, clothing and even food are being supplied by the United States and our obedient NATO lackey States. All that agonizing the West did over how horribly Grozny was treated during its siege, but no one seems able to recognize that, through the despicable services of our Ukrainian stooges, we are now doing much the same to poor Lugansk.

Humanitarian catastrophe: Lugansk, E. Ukraine, left with no water, power, phone connection.

The eastern Ukrainian city of Lugansk has declared a state of humanitarian catastrophe over a lack of medical supplies, electricity, lighting, mobile and internet communication. Some 250,000 civilians are unable to leave, the statement also says.

“As of August 5, Lugansk remains disconnected from electricity. The situation remains critical on the city’s territory. Lugansk is has no energy, is in a state of humanitarian catastrophe. Since Sunday, part of the population in the region’s center have been without light or water, as well as mobile and internet communication,” the statement on the city council website read.

Due to high temperatures and the damage to most community services’ cars, rubbish collection “completely stopped,” which is why the city is basically “on the brink of an ecological catastrophe,” the administration said.

“Today 250,000 civilian Lugansk residents - mainly retirees and families with children who don’t have the money to leave the city and who have nowhere to go - have been the hostages to the situation: the people are forced to live in the conditions of armed clashes, with the lacking communications, the remaining nutrition disappearing from the counter of shops and supermarkets which are still working,” according to the statement.

(snip)

Read more at: http://rt.com/news/178068-ukraine-lugansk-humanitarian-crisis/

[SidDithers]

1. ...according to RT...nt

Sid

[another_liberal]

2. Have a nice day, my repetitious friend . . .

And keep on fighting for . . . for whatever it is you're fighting for.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. I bet if Putin stopped his incursion of sovereign Ukraine it would help matters tremendously. nt

[maddezmom]

4. +1000

👍

[another_liberal]

5. You should ask our own government . . .

Russia has no "incursion" on-going, in the Ukraine or anywhere else that I know of, and President Putin does not command the Grad rocket batteries which are indiscriminately shelling the residents of Lugansk. I think you should ask our own government to end its financial and diplomatic support for further attacks on civilians who live in the Donbas, if you do indeed wish to see the wholesale killing and destruction there end.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

12. America is responsible for Grad rockets but Russia is innocent of the firing of Buk SAMs.

I think that perfectly demonstrates why your posts are viewed as quasi-farcical propaganda.

You NEED stories like this to distract from Putin's empire building excursion.

Not that you know about anything like that.

[reorg]

21. if you set aside your patriotic blinders for a moment

you might notice that Grad rockets are being fired by the Ukrainians, not by the US, but the US still openly supports a "government" of more than questionable legitimacy, a goverment that includes a fascist faction that is responsible for the massacre on civilians in Odessa.

As to who fired Buks, we have some data provided by the Russians, but so far nothing in terms of hard facts has been made available by the Ukrainians or even the ongoing investigation. Radio traffic, black boxes, satellite photos, all under wraps so far. Nothing that proves the allegation that Buks were spirited across the Russian border.

Given the size of these missile batteries – containing four 16-foot-long missiles – the absence of this evidence prompted caution among U.S. intelligence analysts even as senior U.S. officials and the U.S. mainstream media rushed to judgment blaming the rebels and Russians.

In making that case, Kerry and other senior officials relied on claims made by the Ukrainian government along with items posted on “social media.” These snippets of “evidence” included ambiguous remarks attributed to rebels who may have initially thought the shoot-down was another of their successful attacks on lower-flying Ukrainian military aircraft but who later insisted that they had not fired on the Malaysian plane and lacked the longer-range Buk missiles needed to reach above 30,000 feet.

If the U.S. intelligence analysts are correct – that the rebels and Russia are likely not responsible – the chief remaining suspect would be the Ukrainian government, which does possess Buk anti-aircraft missiles and reportedly had two fighter jets in the vicinity of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 at the time of the shoot-down.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/03/flight-17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. Pretty much proves my point.

[reorg]

24. Well, your denial is beyond farcical

we see its tracks all over the Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia. It would be sad if it weren't so pathetic.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. Russia is pushing itself all across the ME, Africa and elsewere. Why is your condemnation lopsided?

[reorg]

27. You seem to live in the past

show me the network of Russian military bases in Europe, Africa and the Middle East. Show me which countries their military has devastated. Show me where they have actively supported coup regimes and I will loudly condemn it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

29. Let us know when you'd actually condemn Russia's incursion into the Ukraine.

[jeff47]

30. But...but....RT says they haven't!!!

They're just conducting exercises. That happen to be on the Russia-Ukraine border. The Russians would never do anything nefarious like the evil Americans! RT keeps telling me how noble and trustworthy they are. It's all about NATO trying to take over. And the Ukrainian government is illegitimate despite recent elections putting that government into power.

And the Ukrainians tampered with the MH7 black boxes, despite the fact that the government didn't control the area, and it was the rebels who turned over the boxes.

Heck, the Ukrainians are so nefarious they managed to secretly push deep into rebel territory and launch SAMs and then secretly retreat. Their plan was so nefarious that they managed to convince the rebels to take credit for launching the SAMs!

[reorg]

37. are you claiming

that Russian troops have crossed the border to Ukraine and participated in hostilities?

Or are you referring to the only "proof" presented, dark spots on the ground on the Russian side allegedly indicating that rockets were fired?

I don't think anybody said that "Russians would never do anything nefarious like the evil Americans." That must be something you have made up in your own head. No, they act according to their interests, just like the US do. Except Russia is relatively weak and still struggles not to be fragmented, marginalized and taken over. Or, worst case scenario but obviously no longer unthinkable, attacked and destroyed.

The recent elections in Ukraine were presidential elections, BTW, there were no recent elections that established a majority for the "government" in Parliament, which currently consists of Neoliberals and Neonazis. On the contrary, that government has just stepped down to make way for new elections. But these will take place only after some parties have been outlawed or otherwise repressed, to make sure the coup leaders prevail.

[jeff47]

39. Nope.

I'm referring to the fact that Russia keeps moving troops to it's border with Ukraine. Troops that would be excellent for invading.

And troops that have the artillery that Ukraine says was fired upon their troops from Russian territory.

I don't think anybody said that "Russians would never do anything nefarious like the evil Americans."

Not in those exact words, but RT's coverage of any issue involving Russia describes the Russian position as pure goodness and light, and the US/NATO position as spawn of Satan.

Except Russia is relatively weak and still struggles not to be fragmented, marginalized and taken over. Or, worst case scenario but obviously no longer unthinkable, attacked and destroyed.

Yes, a country with a massive nuclear arsenal really has to fear being destroyed by a military invasion. There's no possible response with thousands of nuclear-tipped ICBMs that could dissuade an adversary.

there were no recent elections that established a majority for the "government" in Parliament

That's because the democratically-elected parliament continued.

which currently consists of Neoliberals and Neonazis

Nope. There's several parties.

Additionally, the Neonazis are a very small minority in parliament, but RT will happily tell you they run the country.

I find it fascinating that people who insist there is a secret backroom cabal ruling over western media will blindly trust a news organization that is literally run by the Kremlin.

[reorg]

31. Incursion?

Last edited Tue Aug 5, 2014, 03:02 PM - Edit history (1)

You mean, like

24,682 sorties including 9,204 strike sorties?

Or do you mean they SHOULD intervene because a "government" of questionable legitimacy bombs and shoots rockets at its own people?

Warning, graphic footage

That people don't want to be ruled by neoliberal sellouts and Nazi thugs is probably not something you could possibly understand, I suppose.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. You're playing-up the Butcher of Grozny as staging a humanitarian internvention?

[reorg]

35. you mean like the humanitarian interventionists

who were happy to welcome Bin Laden in Bosnia and supported Islamists in Chechnya?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/08/usa.russia


So, from your dodges I get the impression that you believe fighting a separatist insurgency is wrong, because people die in civil wars? How then can you possibly defend what the current Ukrainian "government" is doing? The "separatists" there don't even want to "secede", all they want is a bit more federalism, like, you know, it is the tradition in some Western countries.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

38. That the neocons are duplicitious in no way exonerates Russia's incursion in Ukraine.

It's a non-sequitor, actually. Jihadists or not Putin committed inexcusable acts of brutality. And his incursion in Ukraine has no parallel to the fight against jihadists.

Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe want nothing to do with the homicidal Putin and his dreams of empire. For all your belly-aching about neocons and the rest of the usual suspects the blind eye you turn to the former head of the KGB is telling. Yes, the CIA's hands are dripping with blood but so are the hands of Putin and the KGB.

I am not supporting US ambitions, I support Ukrainian aspirations to be self-determining and not have their nation stolen from them by tools of the Putin regime.

[Cayenne]

73. Maybe they should go in there and stop the murderous shelling of ethnic Russians!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

74. There was no shelling until Putin's stooges violently seceded.

[Duckhunter935]

52. very true nt

[malaise]

6. I saw a BBC report that over 200 Ukranian government forces had crossed the border into Russia

and defected.
There has been a black out in the US on what's going on in Ukraine. It's awkward supporting anti-government rebels in one part of the world and then bawling for loyalty to your chosen tools.

[Igel]

7. And did you see the reporting from phone conversations with the "defectors"?

They'd been targeted by Grad fire from the rebels in one direction.

And by Grad fire from across the border in Russia--to a greater extent--in another.

They could retreat in one direction. Into Russia.

And into the arms of the Russian military that happened to be there with Russian reporters on tap.

Great PR coup. "More than 400 Ukrainian soldiers defected."

Here's the rule: If you watch the news, you can predict what will happen. If there's an instance of cross-border shelling from Ukraine, you know tomorrow there'll be a response. And if the response to cross-border shelling from Russia is pitiful, you know there'll be more.

If some Ukr forces are made to retreat into Russia and it gets attention, you know that tomorrow there'll be more Ukr forces compelled to retreat into Russia. And the spin cycle will be set to "large load." Last week Russia chortled at having to "rescue" some Ukr soldiers forced into Russia when they were attacked by a bunch of tanks (the rebels got one or two tanks ... I guess if I water and feed them they reproduce like bunnies because now they have scores of them).

And the spin cycle was set to high. Channel 1 and Russian 24 reported everything kind the soldiers had to say about Russia. "They helped us." "They're kind." "They're good." "They're gentle." While the Ukr army was fascists that hated bunnies and gutted good Russians for their jollies. At least the Russian press hasn't started to use the word "ukrop" and "ukrofascist" yet. That's next. "Ukrop" sounds about like "hymie" does for "Jew". It denies that they're a country, an ethnicity, but Russian has nice words for pretty much anybody that's a threat. Amerikos is a favorite (sort of pindos, a Greek word for "Greek" that means "fag" in Russian, so it's like "Aqueerican" as a general term of abuse), as is Amerikash. You don't want to know what Russians think about people darker than themselves. In the democratic LPR they've all been rounded up because they can only be American spies, even if they say they're Nigerians. They're not "pure Slav." Welcome to your bedfellows. You can have them. It's like putting the Right Sector in charge of a country--instead of having a few parliamentary seats.

Stop the mercenaries. Stop the upgrading of the rebels' military. Stop the incursions by Russian choppers and stop the cross-border shelling. And then, perhaps, it'll be like it is in the rest of Ukraine. Where there's DPR and LPR there's looting, violence, and deprivation. At least for the "peaceful citizens." In Severodonetsk they found a warehouse with hundreds of crates. Some from the Russian Com. Party. Some from a nationalist party. But all from Russia. Food. Water. Munitions. Uniforms. No food on the shelves--raided by "fighters", to a large extent--but their warehouse was stuffed to the gills.

And my standard isn't "loyalty to my country" on the part of others. But how they treat their own people. Better to be Russian in L'viv than Ukrainian in Luhans'k.

[another_liberal]

10. Are you sure it's really "better?"

I'll see if I can't find links to some articles I've read which might change your mind on how great it is to be ethnic Russian in Western Ukraine, and I'm not even talking about abominations like the Right Sector street thugs burning pro-Russian protesters alive in Odessa.

[another_liberal]

11. The one percent controls our media . . .

And the one percent only support uprisings in places where they can make money. The Egyptian military's coup and the Syrian civil war are recent and current examples.

[Emelina]

87. War is profitable. The rich make money, the poor dig graves.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Not defected - they ran out of ammunition fighting the rebels

and decided the only way out was into Russia. They've been interviewed face-to-face by Western journalists (including the BBC), and while they're happy the Russians are treating them OK, they want to return to Ukraine: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28652096

[maddezmom]

15. Thanks for the link

[malaise]

16. Thanks for the update n/t

[reorg]

19. says the Ukrainian spokesperson for Ukraine's National Security and Defence Council (SNBO)

regurgitated by the BBC without even mentioning other sources. Naturally, only Western war propaganda can be trusted to speak the truth

[LanternWaste]

20. One may imagine the corollary is true also...

"only Western war propaganda can be trusted to speak the truth..."

One may imagine the corollary is true also... cannot be trusted unless it validates an anti-Western bias....

[reorg]

23. not at all, you can use all sources while keeping in mind their likely bias

What is happening here, however, is that Russian sources are dismissed immediately, as if on principle, and that is a clear sign of willful blindness. The information in the OP, for instance, was almost word by word also reported by other sources (for examples see my other post below). Obviously, without even doing a quick web search, a number of posters feel prompted to point out RT=lies - and forego any thought on what is actually happening and how it may affect the people on the ground there and even us at some point.

The news about the "defectors" may be a "propaganda boon" for those who support the resistance against the current "government". And it may still be exactly right. Fact is, a relatively large number of Ukrainian soldiers could not get out of their "cauldron" except by crossing the border to Russia. Their supply lines were cut. Fact is also, that a number of them already are on their way back to Ukraine (reported by Russian media and RT, not disputed by others).

The Russian foreign minister has "suggested" that some of the others may prefer to stay in Russia, since they must be tired to fight against compatriots. Some Russian reports have said they applied for asylum. We'll see if that's true, it's not implausible at all since tens or hundreds of thousands have already fled from Ukraine to Russia.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. No, says the soldiers the BBC interviewed in Russia, and the Russian officer there

The Russian officer said they can go back to Ukraine, or apply to stay in Russia. None of those that talked to the BBC wanted to stay. It's in the video.

[Igel]

8. And it will get worse yet.

You insist on a war, you get a war. There's no point whining about it and saying, "They're beating up on me. All I did was break away from their country, beat up Ukrainians, take over their stuff and say that they're all Jew-loving gay-loving fascists before kidnapping those who oppressed me and claiming that they're ultimate evil."

Swampy gets a lot of the credit for this. ("Bolotov&quot .

As for no incursions, you really have to stop your zapoi and read more than Raptly and the Moscow News Service called "Anna".

Christe eleison
Putin eleison
Christe eleison
Amen.

Ну, а как это по-славянски?

Так. Христос помилуй, хуйло помилуй, Христос помилуй. Ля-ля-ля.

[another_liberal]

9. I guess that pesky UN Charter no longer applies then?

The right of ethnic minorities to claim self-determination only applies when we in the United States want it to, right? You know, like in the case of those ethnic Albanians in Serbia's Kosovo? Remember that little war?

BTW: Your quotes in Russian are wasted on me. I do not read the Cyrillic alphabet.

[The Magistrate]

14. I Suspect They Actually Strike Home Pretty Well, Sir

The man knows far more about the situation than you do. He knows the background, both recent and deeper. and he has access to local accounts in original form. He is not dependent, as you are, on the propagandas the Kremlin chooses to spoon-feed Western audiences in English.

[another_liberal]

32. You know nothing about me, Magi . . .

That much is clear. Your opinions concerning me are mere speculation, and I will treat them as such.

[The Magistrate]

36. Extremely Lame, Sir

Silence would have been much better.

[another_liberal]

40. Yeah, maybe so . . .

But lets try this instead:

I hold an opinion different than you do on an important subject of the day. You make no effort to refute my opinion, rather you begin to once again attack me personally, criticizing me for being whatever person you imagine me to be, but making no salient counter arguments concerning the issue in question; that is, the Ukrainian government's savage brutality against people it claims as its own.

Fair enough?

BTW: Now that I know you want me to be "silent". . . I'm sure you can guess my reaction.

[The Magistrate]

44. And Yet You Cannot Apply The Lesson, Sir....

You hold an opinion on a matter, and that opinion is one aligned perfectly with the propaganda apparatus of the Russian government. Your efforts here are not discussion of a matter, they are simply the spreading about, with varying degrees of energy on varying days, propaganda pieces produced by the Russian government, or following its line as recycled through others who expend their energies as you do. While you spend your time engaged in what one certainly hopes are unpaid volunteer efforts on behalf of Russia's propaganda apparatus, you accuse other people of being close-minded and dupes of lame-stream media propaganda and supporters of neo-cons, if not actually neo-cons and war-mongers and heavens knows what else themselves. And all the while, you are simply shilling for the world's premier governing fascist and the imperialist venture he is embarked on, the seizure by force of portions of a sovereign state, as one step of progress on his crusade to reconstitute the old land Empire of Russia, or as nearly as he can contrive to do so, anyway. And you present this as being somehow the unquestionably left thing to do....

"Silence is the perfect expression of scorn."

[another_liberal]

49. I'll let you in on a secret . . .

The wealthy and powerful elites who run our country and our government tell self-serving lies almost constantly. They own our mass media and use it to indoctrinate us with propaganda at least as sinister as any produced by any foreign power. Whenever they stand to gain from some new imperialistic adventure (such as taking over Ukraine and looting it for anything worth a dollar) I quickly become suspicious. When I then see our media reporting lockstep to the tune of supporting said imperialistic adventure, my suspicions are confirmed, and I begin to look for sources which don't just parrot the established line. On this issue at least, Russia Today is such an independent source.

If you really resent seeing me use that particular source, maybe my efforts aren't meant for you?

[The Magistrate]

51. Not Safe To Tell Me a Secret, Sir....

"Any three people can keep a secret, providing two of them are dead."

[another_liberal]

56. As the Tralfamadorians often like to say . . .

"So it goes."

[The Magistrate]

58. On And On And On It Does, Sir....

"God bless you, Mr. Rosewater!"

[jeff47]

53. Russia Today, literally funded by the Russian government, is an independent source.

Yeah, that's entirely believable.

[another_liberal]

55. It is a source independent of those who control our media . . .

Which, of course, was my meaning.

[The Magistrate]

59. Indeed, Sir: It Is Controlled By Another Imperialist Kleptocracy

The one you think tells the truth and ought to be supported by leftists, on pain of being called neo-cons....

"Love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal!"

[another_liberal]

62. Perhaps it is another one, but it is also a different one . . .

And therein lies the value of its perspective on this issue. See?

[The Magistrate]

65. So You Just Like Novelty, Then, Sir

The sort of person who they market chili-pepper bubble-gum and cocktails made with duck's fat to: if it's nothing you've seen before, and especially if it's edgy why, you're right there and panting for a ticket.....

"The NEW on the package, that's what's new!"

[jeff47]

75. Instead it's directly controlled by Russia

RT cost $30 million to establish in 2005[10] and $30 million for its first year of operation. About half of the network's budget came from the state and the other half from banks and companies friendly to the government.[26] Its budget in dollars was approximately $80 million in 2007, $120 million in 2008, $380 million in 2011 and $300 million in 2012.[8][2][78] Putin has prohibited funding for Russia Today from being reduced as of October 30, 2012.[79]

Quoted from here

None of this clandestine, backroom wink-wink nudge-nudge control as you claim for our media. RT only exists because the Russian government pays the bills.

And you are trusting them on an issue that directly effects Russia.

Let's go ask Rupert Murdoch what should be done with the British phone hacking scandal. I'm sure he'll be completely unbiased, just like RT is unbiased in Russian matters.

[jeff47]

26. Well, Russia didn't apply it to Crimea

Last edited Tue Aug 5, 2014, 01:36 PM - Edit history (1)

The population of Crimea is not 100% Russian. In fact, those ethnic minorities you are so concerned about wanted to remain with Ukraine, or form their own nation.

Did you complain back then, or is your concern newly found?

BTW: Your quotes in Russian are wasted on me. I do not read the Cyrillic alphabet.

That noise you hear is the point sailing over your head.

[another_liberal]

43. You can sail as many over as you want . . .

If it's in Russian, it's going to be Greek to me.

Care to translate?

As to the Crimea: Russia was content for decades with the deal it had with Kiev, at least it was until we organized the violent overthrow of Ukraine's democratically elected President, who we replaced with our Harvard educated pencil-necked flunky.

Then Crimea had an election to decide its future, and they chose (by a rather large majority) to return to being a Russian province, as part of the Russian Federation.

[jeff47]

45. Google. Try it

Try copying and pasting into http://translate.google.com.

The point is the person you are critiquing because of what RT says in English may be a wee bit more familiar with the actual situation on the ground, since they speak Ukrainian.

Then Crimea had an election to decide its future, and they chose (by a rather large majority) to return to being a Russian province, as part of the Russian Federation.

And there goes the point sailing over your head again.

You were just insisting that the minorities in Eastern Ukraine must be protected and have the right to demand freedom.
You are now saying that the minorities in Crimea need to shut up and take Russian domination.

I know, it gets really hard to keep pushing the story when it contradicts itself.

[another_liberal]

46. I don't know whose reply you read . . .

But it was not mine, I did not say anyone needs to be dominated by anyone else.

Maybe we just operate in different realities, you know, parallel universes? Must be something like that.

[jeff47]

48. Re-read your last sentence

Let me quote it for you.

Then Crimea had an election to decide its future, and they chose (by a rather large majority) to return to being a Russian province, as part of the Russian Federation.

Now, read it again, remembering that there are multiple minority groups in Crimea who do not want to be part of Russia.

And remember that you were just demanding minority rights for Eastern Ukraine. Despite the fact that Ukraine chose (by a rather large majority) to align with the West instead of Russia.

So, do minority rights matter? Or do they only matter when it's convenient for the story you are pushing?

[another_liberal]

54. The minority rights of all peoples should be respected . . .

The minorities in Crimea have every right to challenge their current position. I do not know if they truly feel they could form a viable sovereign State, but they have the right try for such an outcome, if that is their strongly held ambition.

[The Magistrate]

61. You Really Are Rum Fun, Sir

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the street, and to steal bread."

[snooper2]

17. still pimpin' for the pro-Rus-Si-A assholes who have now been caught creating mass graves

The OP I posted yesterday from a REAL news organization, VICE.

Which you ignored of course....

[another_liberal]

42. Still calling me rude names, which only shows the weakness of your position.

And let me get this straight, you actually believe I act here at the behest of a foreign power? What a rich life of fantasy and imagination you must enjoy

[reorg]

18. "that's not an anti-terrorist operation, it's a war"

said mayor Sergej Krawtschenko, according to the German magazine Stern. Yet EU countries still supply special equipment and weapons to Ukraine - contrary to their own rules prohibiting such exports to crisis regions.

http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/krise-in-der-ukraine-grossstadt-lugansk-total-isoliert-2128342.html

Local officials say troops are also tightening their grip on the rebel-held city of Luhansk - home to 420,000 people - which is currently without water and electricity. Luhansk's mayor said the city was facing a "humanitarian catastrophe."

http://www.dw.de/talks-continue-to-return-ukrainian-troops-who-entered-russia/a-17832011

NO WATER, NO ELECTRICITY

"I work in the city center. It's easier for me to be at work than to come home. You never know if your house will still be standing when you get back," the financial director of a small company who gave her name only as Antonina said in Petrovsky.

"I know people who have come back from work and found they have nowhere to live."

In another outlying district, Maryinka, roads and houses were pock-marked by shells and some buildings were burnt-out carcasses. The rebels control a checkpoint there, but an abandoned military truck with the Ukrainian flag by the side of the road bore witness to the fighting there.

Streets were deserted and shelling could be heard nearby. Buildings were without electricity or running water.

"Yesterday the light went off suddenly and there was an explosion. I hid in the hallway," said a woman who gave her name as Yevgeniya, standing outside her battered home.

"Then I heard a woman crying outside. Her son and his wife were killed by shelling. They were lying right there," she said, pointing to a pool of blood.

Many homes in Luhansk, which is close to the border with Russia, also have no electricity or water.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/03/us-urkaine-crisis-east-idUSKBN0G207E20140803

[another_liberal]

33. Thanks for noting this . . .

It is not alright to supply weapons to one side of a conflict just because we want that side to prevail.

[EX500rider]

47. "It is not alright to supply weapons to one side of a conflict just because we want that side to...

....prevail"

Actually it is.

Ever hear of "Land-lease"?

[redqueen]

41. Thanks for this post. nt

[R3druM]

50. Well

This post is yet another example of how to spot the Kremlin troll.

1. Using Russia Government propaganda rag as a source (so bad that it's not even allowed in LBN)
2. Code words (fascist militia, US puppet government, Victoria Nuland) - straight out of Kremlin propaganda handbook.
3. The op posting history - just one look will tell you all you need to know.

As I mentioned before, this phenomenon is very widespread, not just on DU.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online

[Duckhunter935]

57. as mass graves are now being discovered that have been left by the the Russian rebels

I hope this ends soon and the Russians are kicked out and Ukraine can be at peace again.

[another_liberal]

60. Talk about some full-fledged, lock-stock-and-barrel "propaganda!"

Keep em coming, pal, this is classic stuff.

[The Magistrate]

63. As Predicted, Sir, You Are Incapable Of Embarassment

They will indeed 'keep on coming'; more graves of people disappeared and executed by the secessionist will be uncovered.

[Duckhunter935]

66. just amazing

I have no words

[another_liberal]

81. Fascinating how you are outraged by this supposed atrocity . . .

But the daily murder of eastern Ukrainian civilians by the shells from Kiev's forces don't seem to matter to you at all. What is that, some kind of selective compassion?

[Duckhunter935]

90. If the Russians were not in ukraine taking over

Ukrainian territory, there would be no fighting like before all of this happened.

[another_liberal]

84. Since the authorities from Kiev are doing the investigating . . .

It is a foregone conclusion who will be found guilty of this supposed crime.

We have only Kiev's word for the fact that these bodies were even buried when this place was behind separatist lines. They are proven liars and may even be attempting to shift the blame for something their own fascist butchers actually did.

[The Magistrate]

89. One Of The Things That Makes You So Funny, Sir, Is You Are Just So Damned Predictable....

It is like watching one of those old 'Drinking Dan' toys bob up and down and up and down and up and down and up and.....

[Duckhunter935]

64. I guess human rights watch also is not good enough

Today, Ukrainian authorities exhumed a mass grave in Sloviansk, in eastern Ukraine. By the time I left the site, they had discovered eight decomposed bodies and they were still searching for more. From April until July 5, the city, now back under Ukrainian government control, had been under the control of anti-government insurgents.

Two neighbors who usually walk their dogs on the lawn next to the burial site told me that on the morning of June 11 an excavator arrived and dug a hole. Later, they said, they saw two men in camouflage drive a truck to the newly dug hole and dump in bodies wrapped in cellophane. The women said the truck returned to dump more bodies an hour later, perhaps 15 altogether.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/dispatches-mass-grave-found-eastern-ukraine

VERY GRAPHIC

[davidpdx]

67. Not for the Putin brigade

They like their anti-gay laws.

[another_liberal]

68. When responsibility for a crime can be established, the guilty should be punished.

It is the immediate assumption of who the guilty party is that smacks of propaganda. Anyone can say anything they want, but proving the charge is another thing entirely.

I do not trust news releases prepared by the Kiev government authorities. They have proven to be imaginative, but unreliable.

[The Magistrate]

69. God, But You Are A Funny, Funny Man, Sir!

"It's all lies! Lies against my boys!"

[another_liberal]

80. I don't have any "boys" in this fight . . .

But I do hate lies and hypocrisy. This "discovery" smacks of both.

[The Magistrate]

83. Course You Do, Sir: No One Doubts You Have Chosen A Side In This

Attempting to claim you have not only makes you look a little silly, and leaves little room to doubt you have no respect whatever for the people you address, because you could not possibly imagine that people of normal intelligence who have followed discussion of this matter over previous weeks would actually believe that claim, and so you must think you are addressing people who need an escort when crossing a busy street. But of course, there is no reason whatever to believe the people you address are less intelligent and knowledgeable than you; in fact, in many instances, there is considerable reason to believe the opposite....

[another_liberal]

85. This is not a football game . . .

I do not take sides in someone else's war. I am against war, period.

So, don't judge me by your own standards, and don't attribute motives or opinions to me which are not my own. As I have noted before, you don't even know who I am.

[The Magistrate]

88. No, Sir, You Are For War, Waged By the Party You Align With

You oppose war by people you do not approve of, for whatever reason, but that is hardly the same as opposing war....

[Duckhunter935]

91. and yet you never

criticize the Pro-Russian side for a darn thing, You just cheer them on as they pass their flowers and love around.

[Duckhunter935]

71. oh yes we can

I am sure RT will say a secret squad from the fascist coup Ukraine criminal government was sent in during the time those nice Russian peacekeepers were protecting the town and did the dastardly deed.

Get real, who was running that town and abducting people from their church, I give you a hint. It was not the Ukraine forces.

[another_liberal]

79. Neither you nor I know where this site is or what happened there.

We have only Kiev's word for it that this was on territory behind separatist lines at the time these bodies were buried.

I simply am not prepared to believe anything Kiev says without an independent investigation.

[The Magistrate]

70. Until Russia Times Has Reported, Sir

Calling this a 'false flag' operation to pass off freedom fighters massacred by Nazis from Kiev as people killed by the noble fighters of the Donets, you are not likely to see any decisive comment on this from the usual suspects....

[Duckhunter935]

72. I know sir

[Turbineguy]

76. Maybe here's a chance for the Russians to do some

Winning of Hearts and Minds.

[R3druM]

77. UN Human Rights Report

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=14908&LangID=E

The report documents how these armed groups continue to abduct, detain, torture and execute people kept as hostages in order to intimidate and “to exercise their power over the population in raw and brutal ways.” Well organized and well equipped militarily, these armed groups have intensified their challenge to the Government of Ukraine, the report says.

Some of those detained by the armed groups are local politicians, public officials and employees of the local coal mining industry; the majority are ordinary citizens, including teachers, journalists, members of the clergy and students.” The Monitoring Mission has received numerous reports of acts of ill-treatment or torture of these detainees, as well as killings by the armed groups which frequently seek ransom or, more recently, use the detainees to dig trenches or send them to fight on the front lines. Some abductions appear to be totally random.

The human rights situation in Crimea remains of great concern. Harassment and discrimination against Ukrainian nationals, Crimean Tatars, religious minorities, minorities in general and activists who opposed the 16 March “referendum” have intensified, the report states. NGOs have warned of a possible new wave of internally displaced persons (IDPs) from Crimea during the next few months as new restrictions take effect and make people’s lives there untenable. “This would include business people who were having serious difficulties with continuing to operate their businesses in Crimea; lecturers and teachers because they fear they will be sacked at the beginning of the new academic year for holding Ukrainian nationality or because they are Crimean Tatar; and families with sons of military age who do not want to be called for service into the Russian Federation army.”

Care to comment, another_liberal... or you going to continue to peddle RT propaganda? I guess we all know answer to that.

[Duckhunter935]

78. But that can not be

RT says it is just all well and fine there now since they kicked that fascist coup government out with those nice boys bringing in flowers and talking nicely to the Ukrainian military to leave.

[another_liberal]

82. There are people being killed daily by shelling and bombing from Kiev's armed forces . . .

Of course that doesn't matter as much, because those victims are just ethnic Russians, right?

[Duckhunter935]

92. no, they are Russians

Alexander Yurevich Borodai

As of July 28, he fled to Russia

Vyacheslav Vladimirovich Ponomarev

Russian

Igor Girkin AKA (Igor Vsevolodovich Strelkov)

Russian citizen from Moscow

[Emelina]

86. The USA is trying to serve up Ukraine to the IMF and trans-national corporations.

It saddens me that the true motive behind the US creating the Kiev regime is to plunder Ukraine.