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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNaomi Wolf Read The Bible & It "Blew Her Mind" - But Not For The Usual Stated Reasons...
Okay, so I was challenged below: "Read the Bible! God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people."
So....I may get crucified for this but I have started to say it -- most recently (terrified, trembling) to warm welcome in a synagogue in LA: Actually if you read Genesis Exodus and Deuteronomy in Hebrew -- as I do -- you see that God did not "give" Israel to the Jews/Israelites. We as Jews are raised with the creed that "God gave us the land of Israel" in Genesis -- and that ethnically 'we are the chosen people." But actually -- and I could not believe my eyes when I saw this, I checked my reading with major scholars and they confirmed it -- actually God's "covenant" in Genesis, exodus and Deuteronomy with the Jewish people is NOT ABOUT AN ETHNICITY AND NOT ABOUT A CONTRACT. IT IS ABOUT A WAY OF BEHAVING.
Again and again in the "covenant" language He never says: "I will give you, ethnic Israelites, the land of Israel." Rather He says something far more radical - far more subversive -- far more Godlike in my view. He says: IF you visit those imprisoned...act mercifully to the widow and the orphan...welcome the stranger in your midst...tend the sick...do justice and love mercy ....and perform various other tasks...THEN YOU WILL BE MY PEOPLE AND THIS LAND WILL BE YOUR LAND. So "my people" is not ethnic -- it is transactional. We are God's people not by birth but by a way of behaving, that is ethical, kind and just. And we STOP being "God's people" when we are not ethical, kind and just. And ANYONE who is ethical, kind and just is, according to God in Genesis, "God's people." And the "contract" to "give" us Israel is conditional -- we can live in God's land IF we are "God's people" in this way -- just, merciful, compassionate. AND -- it never ever says, it is ONLY your land. Even when passages spell out geographical "boundaries" as if God does such a thing, it never says this is exclusively your land. It never says I will give this land JUST to you. Remember these were homeless nomads who had left slavery in Egypt and were wandering around in the desert; at most these passages say, settle here, but they do not say, settle here exclusively. Indeed again and again it talks about welcoming "zarim" -- translated as "strangers" but can also be translated as "people/tribes who are not you" -- in your midst. Blew my mind, hope it blows yours.
https://www.facebook.com/naomi.wolf.author/posts/10152548360004476?fref=nf
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Notably Micah and Isaiah. Amos had some pretty hard words for folks, too.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)want simplicity in all things including moral instruction, hence the afternoon therapy TV shows.
"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"' is NOT instruction to avenge, it is instruction to use only proportionate force, so if someone pokes you in the eye with a stick and injures you you do. to take an AK 47 and blow his brains out.
Why are people so funcking stupid and gullible?
So if others fire rockets at you you do kill hundreds of children in the vicinity of where the rockets were fired as the response.....proportionate response, a rocket for a rocket.
GreenEyedLefty
(2,073 posts)To paraphrase Gandhi.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and even more so when you're reading a four hundred year old translation into English using words with meanings that were quite different from modern usage.
Like Wolf, I've read much of the Pentateuch in Hebrew and my understanding of it changed dramatically. Similar, reading several modern English translations was an eye-opener.
D Gary Grady
(133 posts)I'm sure translations don't convey the full subtlety of the original text, but I find it hard to believe that scholarly ones totally misrepresent it, and there are some pretty horrible things in there. Take for example Deuteronomy 20:10-15, which tells the Israelites to enslave the inhabitants of cities they attack unless the city puts up a fight, in which case the men are to be exterminated and the women taken as plunder. But the following three verses make an exception:
"However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them -- the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites -- as the Lord your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God."
Unfortunately there's plenty more where this came from, and by no means just in Deuteronomy. The amazing thing is that modern Judaism teaches a sublime and admirable code of morality despite this source material (a few fanatical rabbis excepted).
safeinOhio
(32,675 posts)a loop-hole in there some where.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)simply, ignore what is written (what you claim to believe), in favor what gives you what you want.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest".
DhhD
(4,695 posts)according to the 12 sons of Jacob after arriving on the east side of the Jordon River, from the 40 years of the Exodus. Four Hundred years earlier, one son, Joseph, sold to Egyptian traders later had two sons from an Egyptian wife of imperial status; so Joseph's part was divided into two parts. Oh Israel, was part Egyptian. The reestablishment of Israel and Judea began about 400 years after the death of Jacob.
Again, backing up almost 400 years, the Pharaoh of Egypt and his court journeyed into the land of Canaan, along with Joseph to bury Joseph's father Jacob. Then the funeral possession all returned to Egypt. Jacob's great grandfather Abraham had been promised by God, that his family would be blessed above all nations. The sign was, the Child of the Promise, Isaac, Joseph's grandfather. Joseph's paternal great uncle was Ishmael, who was born to the Egyptian handmaiden of Abraham's wife Sarah. Ishmael and his Egyptian Mother were sent away. It is believed that they settled in Media. After being run out of Egypt, Moses took a wife from the people living in Media (northern Arabia) before the Exodus started.
Many years later, King David and his son King Solomon were descendents of Judah, second son of Jacob. Christ born many years later was a descendent of theses two kings. Christ's Mother, Mary was a decedent of the Levite, Aaron, brother of Moses.
Source: The Bible
There are several modern day studies of the genetics of the peoples of the world.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)The land should be given to those who strive for peace and everyone else should be banished. Perhaps a 2 state solution where everyone wanting peace lives together in one state, everyone wanting war gets to occupy the other state and duke it out.
Peace
at last,
kp
BobbyBoring
(1,965 posts)∆∆∆
Veilex
(1,555 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,355 posts)Thanks for the thread, kpete.
Maineman
(854 posts)Gore1FL
(21,130 posts)I'd rather the conversation go towards dispelling, rather than reinterpreting, mythology.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)That phrase always loses me.
gtar100
(4,192 posts)It's all in the context of the conversation or writing. And it is religious, after all.
mountain grammy
(26,620 posts)calimary
(81,238 posts)What the heck was God thinking?????!?!?!?!?!!???
Love one another as you love yourself?
pretty radical.
peace,
kp
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)intended it to be. It is intended to be a safe haven for Jews who have been for centuries unfairly persecuted wherever they go.
And yes, the Bible does teach welcoming strangers. That's what the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is really about.
That does not change the need for Israel as a haven for Jews, a persecuted people.
In America, Jews are just white folks. But in other parts of the world and even among some American, Jews are hated. It's sad, but that's the way it is.
Caretha
(2,737 posts)others are hated too. One is not more special than another except in some people's eyes who are myopic.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)nearly two thousand years of persecution of Jewish people but I don't think it got posted.
The story is incredible. Lots of people have suffered persecution -- but the over 2000 years of the scapegoating and persecution of the Jews is unmatched.
And, by the way, I am not Jewish. I am a Unitarian with a Protestant background. I have friends who are Jewish, who are Muslim and who are Christian. None of that changes the fact that I have studied the history of the Jewish people to understand why the hatred of them and have found only that the persecution is ageless and unrelenting.
Let's finally let those of them who wish to do so live in peace under their own government in Israel, please.
We are a few years short of 2000 years and the persecution may have begun long before that.
If Palestinians want land back, they should bargain for it and prove that they can live in peace with Israel. That's all it would take. If they do that and Israel starts a war, then we can talk about how awful Israel is. But the current fighting is just a continuation of a long-standing war and of persecution of the Jews.
I favor a two-state solution and peace above all. The Palestinians should be compensated for their losses and grievances but only when a two-state solution is established and working well.
rurallib
(62,411 posts)boy, if anything ever deserves a kick, this one does.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Now I can't speak to Jewish traditions or teachings, but Christians see every word spoken in the bible as a commandment that they should do the same...and there is no historical context to any of it...and no understanding that much of the old testament is the history of Israel as they reported it.
And none of them seem to read if for the story it tells...which I think is fascinating.
And there are also some fascinating things about the way Israel was structured, but that is off topic.
Makes so much more sense and as you say is so much more God-like.
" I checked my reading with major scholars and they confirmed it -- actually God's "covenant" in Genesis, exodus and Deuteronomy with the Jewish people is NOT ABOUT AN ETHNICITY AND NOT ABOUT A CONTRACT. IT IS ABOUT A WAY OF BEHAVING. "
Major scholars? And they concluded this based on what objective standard? What is this nonsense? And why is the bible an authority of any kind on how to behave?
defacto7
(13,485 posts)in this context and forum is not of interest to me other than to point out that....
It depends on the Jewish sect you belong to. The interpretation is vastly different depending on that one thing.
Especially to those "People of the Way" who follow that Rabbi with the Greek name . . .
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)never encouraged to read the Bible. I also ignored much of what the church tried to teach me, and stopped going when I was 16. When I was about 25 or so I decided maybe I should read it and have some idea what people were talking about.
What a mind-blower! I want to say that if you really have no familiarity at all with that book, the first parts read exactly like science fiction.
The other thing that truly bothers me about the Bible and those who try to use it for every possible thing, is that it is the original short-attention-span work of literature, or whatever you want to call it. It's divided up into these very short sections, usually only a sentence or two, rarely as long as 50 words. So lots of readers think it's profound and meaningful to quote these short things, as if they said something worth paying attention to. Everything is without context.
While I don't want to knock someone else's sincere beliefs, I find that the more religious and Bible oriented a person is, the less able they are to follow any kind of complex argument. Which is why these people don't believe in evolution or global warming, because you can't really sum them up properly in 50 words or less.
Kath1
(4,309 posts)Smart girl! Stopped in 2003 when I was 45. Let my daughter quit at 14 (after I got custody), so she has both of us beat!
"I find that the more religious and Bible oriented a person is, the less able they are to follow any kind of complex argument." LOL! That is so true. That is why they are so infuriating to deal with. Always nice to hear from another ex-catholic.
lastlib
(23,224 posts)what are we s'posed to do then??!?
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
mark67
(196 posts)but I've read the Bible cover to cover...twice...something I had promised myself I would do a few years ago...and the four gospels many times over...
I challenge everyone here to do the same. If that sounds too daunting at least get a good unabridged audio version and do the same.
Don't want to get into my final impressions on this forum, but as one of the guys from Penn and Teller said "The quickest way to become an atheist is to read the entire Bible." I'm not quite that cynical yet, but it completely changed my personal beliefs.
The true believers would say "reading is not understanding unless its divinely inspired", "its not meant to be read that way", etc...to which I would respond to let people read the ENTIRE thing first, and then we can have that discussion.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)I'm an atheist but I see a lot of good going on all around me. I feel like I cherish my life even more since arriving at this point. Since I feel this is it I try to make the most of it.
Just throwin' that out there.
Julie
mr blur
(7,753 posts)LittleGirl
(8,287 posts)"I feel like I cherish my life even more since arriving at this point."
I don't feel "watched" anymore. That was creeping me out.
mark67
(196 posts)not cynical, meaning, unlike Bill Maher don't think organized religion is just the province of fools. There's also tradition and ritual and community, the best practices along with the worst...
LittleGirl
(8,287 posts)And I think that was the opinion of my Mother when she put us in Catechism class in '66. Roman Catholic family that had deep italian roots near the vatican on my father's side so she wanted to respect that. Give us that. Brainwashing ensued and I was left wondering why I ever let her do that to me. Totally messed me up. Catholic to me = Fears. Don't care to live that way anymore.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)I can tell.
cer7711
(502 posts)And no, that is not a typo.
Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)It's called "The Philosophy of Hebrew Scripture" by Yoram Hazony. His thesis is that the Hebrew scriptures are not as parochial as people think. That they are actually concerned with general philosophical issues like what it means to be a good person, what a good government is like, and what happens when one or both of those things are missing.
Wolf's reading fits right in with that thesis. K&R.
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)and the Nevi'im read like a PLO manifesto anyway ...
packman
(16,296 posts)Denied entering the "Promised Land" because he pissed off God, so he stood on a hill watching the tribes entering :
Deuteronomy 32. "...the LORD told Moses, 'Go up into the Abarim Range to Mount Nebo in Moab, across from Jericho, and view Canaan, the land I am giving the Israelites as their own possession. There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people. This is because both of you broke faith with Me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold My Holiness among the Israelites. Therefore, you will see the land only from a distance; you will not enter the land I am giving to the people of Israel"
Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)Omnipotence also means "one huge effin ego"
Jeeez, get over yourself.
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)So, really, if you want to argue that Israelis are in the wrong being where they are and killing men, women and children to keep what they've got, you're using the wrong book to prove it. As for all the nice rules, ten commandments included, I'm afraid they only apply to other Israelites. They were given to them, not to everyone because, like it or not, the god of the old testament is only god of the hebrew tribes. His rules are for his chosen people only. Meaning, you treat tribal widows nicely, and welcome those stranger from another tribe, etc. But these rules don't have to be applied to those outside of the tribe. Outsiders are still outsiders and can be killed. Men, women, children, infants. God commands such at least twice (read up on King Saul, where god commands that Sol wipe out not only every man, woman and child of an enemy people, but all their animals, too).
Which is all to say, if such rules were not meant to be applied by Israelites towards only other Israelites, then "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not steal" would be good enough to prove Israel in the wrong according to the bible. No need to mention any other rules at all.
Sorry, Naomi, you're not getting any praise from me. This is a bad argument as it's very easily countered, and just makes you look like you didn't read very far or very well.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)the bible makes it clear that whenever the Israelites/Jews behaved wickedly, Israel was promptly invaded and taken away from them. This supports Wolf's view that behavior at least as much as ethnicity is the deal.
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)"And they utterly destroyed everything in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword" Joshua 6:21
For this deed, which god tells the Israelites to do, they are REWARDED with the city and it becomes theirs. Which means that we can't argue that the bible, as Wolf and these other scholars seem to think, sees killing people (even women and children) to gain this land as "wicked" and wrong. God doesn't seem to have a problem with Israelites doing that and doesn't count that as "wicked."
Now, there are things he does counts as wicked, certainly, and he does punish for it. Like King Saul, to whom god says: "Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Dont have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys. Saul, however doesn't do as he's told. "Every Amalekite was killed except King Agag. Saul and his army let Agag live, and they also spared the best sheep and cattle. They didnt want to destroy anything of value, so they only killed the animals that were worthless or weak."
And for this, god rejects Saul. Not for being a ruthless killer of women and children, but for not killing every living thing as ordered. I mean, even if these Amalekites were awful people, we wouldn't blame their infants or cows for that, would we? We would consider it wicked to kill them for the sins of the adults. Yet, according to the Bible, Wolf and the Scholars are totally wrong about what god deems a wicked deed deserving of punishment. Not being ruthless enough is what leads to god rejecting Saul. So why should we trust their view or their scholarship which says the opposite? That not being merciful enough is what god considers wicked? The bible doesn't seem to back that up at all.
Of course, we could just stop giving credit to the stupid argument that land should belong to this or that people because a deity in a book gave it to them. If that sort of evidence wouldn't be allowed in a court case over land ownership, why should it be allowed as an argument for Israel taking land from Palestinians? My opinion of Naomi is that she's being an idiot, not only because her scholarship doesn't make sense given the Joshua and Saul evidence, but because she's taking the argument seriously rather than dismissing it. That's just a dumb thing to do, empower the opposition like that.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)1. I agree, modern diplomatic, military and geopolitical decisions should not be made based on religious text.
2. You quote the Joshua passage out of context without the parts leading up to it. In general, the groups that the supposed deity orders the Israelites to kill fall in one of two categories. Either they were 'exceedingly wicked', particularly to the Israelites, or in general disobeyed the deity to get out of the way of the Israelites having the land promised to them. The original point you made that the Israelites were free to wantonly kill strangers is not borne out by biblical text.
You mentioned the Amalekites. This is a good description of them. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Amalek.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek
in particular:
In the Pentateuch, the Amalekites are nomads who attacked the Hebrews at Rephidim (Exodus 17:8-10) in the desert of Sinai during their exodus from Egypt: "smiting the hindmost, all that were feeble behind," (Deuteronomy 25:18). The Tanakh recognizes the Amalekites as indigenous tribesmen, "the first of the nations" (Numbers 24:20). In the southern lowlands too, perhaps the dry grazing lands that are now the Negev, there were aboriginal Amalekites who were daunting adversaries of the Hebrews in the earliest times. "They dwelt in the land of the south...from Havilah until thou comest to Shur" (Numbers 13:29; 1 Samuel 15 ). At times said to be allied with the Moabites (Judg. 3:13) and the Midianites (Judges 6:3). One may consider the hypothesis that each of their kings bore the hereditary name of Agag (Num. 24 ; 1 Sam. 15:8). They also attacked the Israelites at Hormah (Num. 14:45). Saul and his army destroyed most of the people, and earned Samuel's wrath for leaving some of the people and livestock alive (1 Samuel 15:8-9) against God's command. Saul and the tribal leaders also hesitated to kill Agag, so Samuel himself executed the Amalekite king (1 Samuel 15:33).
and
The Biblical relationship between the Hebrew and Amalekite tribes was that the Amalekite tribes without provocation pounced on the Hebrews when they were weak. The Amalekites became associated with ruthlessness and trickery and tyranny, even more so than Pharaoh or the Philistines, and required a ruthless response:
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)DesertDiamond
(1,616 posts)own life tendencies. Those who are already compassionate read and practice the compassion. Those who are owned by the darkness read those passages about war, slavery, rape, domination and killing, and they practice that instead. And they feel quite justified that it's "God's word." And, of course, they ignore that Constantine and his Nicean Council put the Bible together and threw in all kinds of things.
lame54
(35,287 posts)progressoid
(49,988 posts)Just a thought.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)He said "God gave that land to the Jews".
I asked, "Where's the deed"? "What are the boundaries, and property lines on this gift". "What would you do if some people came up to your front door, with guns, saying God gave them your property"? You'd have them locked up in a rubber room somewhere, or pull out your gun.
He just started blubbering unintelligible nonsense, and hung up.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)ymetca
(1,182 posts)... is a lot like Stephen Colbert's "a better tomorrow, tomorrow".
The modern gambit would be the life insurance policy.
Since there really is no such thing as "The Promised Land" in nature, it is basically a lie. A sales pitch.
The Gnostic view was that the Garden of Eden was a false paradise, Adam and Eve being kept there by Satan, pretending to be God. That makes the serpent (i.e. knowledge, or the awakening of the mind) the true path. Hence, the Caduceus (or brain/stem, around which spiral the twin serpents of Wisdom and Understanding), becomes the symbol of healing, both physically and from self-delusion. Which is why the Mystery Schools taught the edict "first know thyself".
The Qabalah, which elucidates this hidden truth (i.e. the Bible is just a symbolic sorting system), is later summarized in the Gospel passage in which Jesus tells his Disciples why he spoke in parables to the masses. Christian mystics say that "the kingdom of heaven is within". I.e. it's within our own neuro-biology, and not a physical place "out there somewhere".
The argument continued with Freud and Jung, the former denying the existence of a collective unconscious full of great symbolic "beings" who coerce our behavior, and the latter convinced that it was the source of most religious beliefs, and of course the "extraordinary madness of crowds".
If you've never been in a large crowd of people under attack, you have a hard time understanding how Leviathan (or Cthulhu) can arise from within that midst. Terror overrides rational, cognitive brain functions. If you survive it, you can become addicted to it, which is why "civilized" society fears chaos. Once you unleash that "beast within" you might not be able to stuff it back into its "underworld" cage.
Unless we become better at understanding what our symbolic/moral systems are telling us, we'll continue to massacre each other over fabled "promised lands", and yearn tragically for the "return of the king".
Sometimes, I think that is why we created mass media and the Internet --so that we could all finally, collectively, confront the "Great Beast" we keep unleashing upon each other in the name of some symbol system or another that isn't really real. Can any of us withstand this great invasion of our various culturally-isolated social systems by some weird "all seeing eye" of Total Information Awareness?
I am not so sure. We might need to build some Giant Fighting Robots to combat the Great Scalding Eye...
devils chaplain
(602 posts)... essentially asks people to be pacifist, kind, communist hippies.
Roy Serohz
(236 posts)Last shred of cred blown.