Question: Why is it hard for even progressive to admit they have a racial advantage in area?

[uponit7771]

I'm tall and black, that would give me a height and racial advantage in the NBA and getting a college scholarship for basketball...this comes from multiple NBA players on different levels...if you're black, tall and athletic you have a slight advantage in America for a basketball scholarship or getting picked high in the NBA over a similarly situation white or Hispanic person.

I play some ball but I am no longer the athlete I was 20yrs ago...that doesn't mean I do NOT have the advantage

Why is it hard for some to admit something similar when it comes to race in America in the areas of affluence?

I honestly don't understand why this is even coming up as a subject...


Thank you in advance for any input


P.S. TALKING about this issue and identifying that a people(S) perspective is that privilege exist is NOT being divisive. We can address problems when we know they exist and know the extent of said issue.

[elleng]

1. Good question, and fine discussion you initiate.

Unfortunately progressives (and others, I assume) feel uncomfortable simply RECOGNIZING that differences among peoples exist. Probably a step on the way to true 'humanhood,' haven't made it all the way. (Like, 'we white people' are used to Kraft mac & cheese, and African Americans make it from SCRATCH!)

[uponit7771]

3. I'm really starting to think this also, it's an uncomforatble subjet for some ...I had no idea until

...now that it was though.

I thought I was pretty informed when it came to talking about racial issues in any country and they way people think as humans.

I never knew people would shy away from this kind of topic...

It's confusing no doubt

[elleng]

10. Trying to recall when I first recognized this.

I began to learn about the differences when I first developed friendships with African Americans at my first job after college, in Chicago, and followed on in DC, after buying a house in a beautifully 'integrated' neighborhood and becoming friendly with next-door neighbors; all this has been within the past 40? years.

[zipplewrath]

2. Any advantage

It is a bit of a shock to many people to find out that their personal "success" may have SOMETHING to do with an advantage they received that others did not. Economic, cultural, gender, genetic, or race it doesn't really matter, suggesting to them that their "success" was partially grounded in something they were "given" instead of "earned" is a great way to piss 'em off.

It's a closely related subject to "proud to be an American". I often wonder, for most folks, what they are "proud" about. I can be happy about it, thankful, grateful, or whatever, but since most of us didn't particular "decide" to be an American, it would seem hard to be "proud" about it. Unless you were one that chose to come here, studied, and jumped through the hoops to become an American Citizen, where is the "pride"?

There's alot I don't like about Colin Powell, but I do appreciate that he acknowledges that affirmative action helped him. Mind you, it didn't make up for all the crap obstacles that were thrown in his way. But he does say that without it, he wouldn't have been where he was. That's not to say he wouldn't have enjoyed some success in life, but he was able to achieve MORE because of AA. Justice Thomas on the other hand.....

[doh1]

7. but like you said

It is a bit of a shock to many people to find out that their personal "success" may have SOMETHING to do with an advantage they received that others did not.

It was something that was done to them by others. it was nothing they did.

Once we can rid the world of the people who are giving these "privileges" then we can actually be treated equally.

[zipplewrath]

40. We all do

we can't "rid the world" because we all tend to do it. We can try to avoid "institutionalizing" the tendency, or formalizing it. We can try to "compensate" in some way for these things as well. But it is human nature to "prejudge" people based upon external indications. Just try hiring people some time and you'll realize all the little correlations we make about people that are just plain wrong. Grades, schools, length of experience, professional background, all of them tend to be more misleading that instructive.

I really think the point is that you have to first acknowledge that the tendencies are there, and then formalize the extension of opportunities to counter it. Schools have done this for decades, not always in ways we'd like. But they have sought out various groups of people who might not otherwise apply. The military acadamies do it all the time. Doesn't mean there aren't "legacy" students as well. But that is almost WHY schools do this, so that new legacies become part of their traditions.

[abelenkpe]

8. Given vs earned

That is exactly what it's all about. No one wants to admit they were given respect, success, opportunity or an initial benefit of the doubt based on their wealth, family, gender or race. They need to believe it was earned and will create the most absurd justifications for that belief.

[uponit7771]

14. THANK YOU!! This makes sense, If someone told me I was born with fake stilits in my legs and

...that was the reason I was able to get an athletic scholarship that would undermine my efforts some for lack of better description.

I agree about Thomas, my goodness...he's a disgrace

[zipplewrath]

41. He's virtually a poster boy for what we're talking about

Thomas refuses to admit that if AA wasn't around, although he would have been successful, he would never had ended up where he was. AA was about opportunities that might not otherwise be extended.

[uponit7771]

51. ...he's ignorant on another level then. It's almost delusional

[abelenkpe]

4. A friend of mine who comes from an extremely wealthy family

And who's parents paid his way through Cal Arts once told me that he had been discriminated against when he signed up for some classes at Northridge because he is white. He said affirmative action made it so that he was put behind students who were female and minorities. He firmly believes white males are discriminated against because of this one experience. I once asked him how many women and minorities were now more successful than him in the animation business? Did not getting to take that one class that one time make it difficult for him to become a director in a business long dominated by white men? He considers himself a liberal.

[dkf]

5. I don't see how anyone can make the case that Asians are not discriminated against in college

admissions.

If that is the case for Asians why wouldn't that be the case for whites?

[msongs]

15. eveidently you've never been to a university of california campus lol nt

[EOTE]

22. Or UW-Madison.

Or many other college campuses, I'd imagine. One of my favorite exchanges from Harold and Kumar go to White Castle is this one that takes place at Rutgers:

Student: Hey, have you seen a Korean guy around here?

Drug dealer: Yeah, only when I open my eyes, though.

[dkf]

24. They still need higher grades and test scores to get in.

"Like Jews in the first half of the 20th century, who faced quotas at Harvard, Princeton, and other Ivy League schools, Asian-Americans are over-represented at top universities relative to their population, yet must meet a higher standard than other applicants based on measures such as test scores and high school grades, according to several academic studies."


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-02/harvard-targeted-in-u-s-asian-american-discrimination-probe.html

[uponit7771]

18. UCLA = University of Caucasians Lost amongst Asians...it's kinda a twist on society norms

[abelenkpe]

19. Since CA stopped affirmative action in university admissions

Minority attendance is way down. This guy's experience was before that took place so yes he had to wait one semester for one class at a college he attended part time before going to Cal Arts. He wasn't denied the class. He just had to wait a semester because it was filled up before he signed up. And it didn't effect his ability to thrive in his career afterward which historically favors his sex and race.

[uponit7771]

21. ...good point, must have been an engineer?

[dkf]

29. Asian attendance is down after CA stopped affirmative action?

Really?

Or are Asians not minorities any more?

[uponit7771]

12. Ok, sounds like this peron was unware then...it's a shame folk lived their lives constricted from...

...the ability to see so many different kinds

[Egalitarian Thug]

6. I don't know, I have always known and readily admitted that I do.

Perhaps it is a reaction to the tendency of many to overstate that advantage? i.e. I'm white and male, but I am nowhere near being ruling class, yet I have had my similar appearance used to equate me with them.

If you and I are applying for the same job, I am more likely to get an offer, even if you are more qualified. However, neither of us is going to be invited to join the club that beats us both over the head our entire lives.

[doh1]

9. the reason you are more likely is because of the person who is doing the hiring

Its not that you want this or need this. You are receiving this because someone else is giving it to you.

That is who we need to stop, the one who is giving out this "privilege" to whites.

[uponit7771]

17. "...of many to overstate that advantage?..."....AH, OK...that makes sense too. You feel that some...

...people make claims of the advantage that don't exist.

Kind of like someone telling me it's JUST because I was tall I was able to get an advantage VS I had to work my butt off at being an athlete because I was a geek and could care less about athletics.

[Egalitarian Thug]

25. If I understand what you said, yes. The assumption is insulting because it either discounts your

efforts or attributes other advantages you don't possess. The inverse of the fact that you're going to be followed around the store while I could possibly load up like a piñata and walk out without a second glance.

[uponit7771]

33. OK,....this makes sense....From your experience what do you feel....

...some people attribute to being a white male that's not an advantage?

I have know idea what these would be..

Thx for your input

[Egalitarian Thug]

43. Hmm. I think being a white man is probably the most privileged position in the U.S.

among the the whole range of not-so-privileged people. IOW, we don't get the extra shit that women and being brown get.

Now there is, I believe, an exception to this, that being a part of the baby boom generation, and that's where/how we got here. There was an all to brief time where, thanks to the good parts of The Great Society years, when minorities did have opportunities that other minorities and poor white people before and after them never got. Just look at the ages of the most successful American blacks. I'd say it's approximately a 10 year period about 1950 - 1960, but that is an anomaly, and it resulted in the decisions being made at the top that got us here today. It got us Nixon and Reagan and the backlash that is destroying America today. It pissed off both Archie Bunker and Meathead who, in turn, voted for Reagan despite their own interests and has been with us since.

But that's a different discussion. The real privilege is, and has always been, being born into wealth and that's a whole different scale. A black woman born the daughter of an executive has far more privilege that a white man born in poverty. And that's the root of our problems as far as I can see. Man/woman/black/white/brown has never been as large a difference as rich/poor is. That's just a fact, and it's been studied and documented over and over for decades at least. Nothing is a greater determination of a child's chance of doing well or badly as economic status.

And that's the battle I believe we should be fighting. If we can overcome that, we have a much better chance at addressing the rest. Consider the current racial controversies; when reagan took office this was a very different nation. It was far from perfect, but was moving in the right direction. There were plenty of racists, but outside of small pockets of like-minded morons, one rarely heard the word ni**er, and when it was, it was like a turd floating in the pool. It was simply no longer acceptable to use it in polite company. That changed in about 2 seconds in January 1981. Reagan's big change was not tax policy nearly as much as that he gave the assholes permission to fly their flags of hate again.

OK, I got way off topic there. My main point is that green is the color we should be concerned with, because as long the distribution of it remains as perverse as it is, it is a simple matter for those that have it to set everybody against everybody else.

[Jim Lane]

34. Your point about the "club" is also part of the answer to the OP's question

You wrote, "However, neither of us is going to be invited to join the club that beats us both over the head our entire lives."

I recognize, intellectually, that being white gives me advantages, but I don't experience them daily. What's more prominent in my consciousness is being disadvantaged by not being part of the ruling elite.

Of course, it's not logically inconsistent to say that whites are privileged over blacks and the elites (mostly white but some blacks there too) are privileged over us peons. Nevertheless, I think some whites are reluctant to discuss the first point because it seems to undercut or take attention away from the second.

[Egalitarian Thug]

44. Yes, and that's the point. Any white man that doesn't understand or admit that we

have it easier than women and minorities of similar status is fooling or lying to themselves.

[joshcryer]

53. The ruling class wouldn't exist if you didn't take advantage of those advantages.

You're not going to, for example, turn down the job if you notice that a woman, colored person or latino person is applying for the same job, too. We both know this. No one can blame you for that, and the ruling class counts on it.

[Starry Messenger]

11. A combination of things.

Education on oppression and racial history in this country is really weak. It should be comprehensive and start at a younger age for white kids. Two, social and economic segregation doesn't really put whites in the day to day experience of life experienced while not being white.

[uponit7771]

20. OK...this is good, so some folk aren't aware of their privliage cause they're not exposed to many...

....people outside of their own culture.

I thinks someone posted something similar upthread via experience.

I think humans are fascinating, I like people watching...

[dkf]

13. The truth is we acquire the positive and negative attributes people similar to us have created.

That is why we also owe it to the people who come after us to do our best to be positive contributors.

[Union Scribe]

16. My only problem is the across-the-board

statements I've seen here, such as: if you're white your life is less stressful. No exceptions, no qualifications, just all-encompassing racial absolutes that divide the working class for no reason. Blanket dismissals of or minimizations of any whole group's struggles in this world--not matter what their creed or color--piss me off, because no one on this faceless site really knows anything about what another poster goes through. No one, on a site of supposed allies, should be made to feel like an outsider or part of a problem that is, at its heart, still all about class warfare. Race is just one weapon in that war, and its effectiveness at dividing us is apparently as potent as ever.

[uponit7771]

23. "....or part of a problem that is, at its heart, still all about class warfare...", why do

...you think people see the people who have said advantage are part of the problem?

I mean, I'm tall ...if that were a big leg up I'd take advantage of it without shame while trying to help others that weren't tall.

Thx in advance for your input

[dkf]

27. Being tall is an advantage. There are studies...

http://economiclogic.blogspot.com/2008/11/advantage-of-being-tall.html?m=1

[uponit7771]

35. That advantage is discounted doubly by field and being black. You wouldn't recognize this

...as a nation with diversity laws in the field I work in

[dkf]

38. Honestly you have no idea of the advantages you have either.

I could go on and on about what I have encountered but it would be too revealing. Suffice it to say my boss told me to my face that a woman couldn't keep the business going.

[uponit7771]

42. You're right...ha in my own thread, Women in the field I work in don't even want to come to

...work sometimes because it's ok in this field to be a total jerk...it's accepted as part of the personality trait of the "good ones".

[dkf]

55. I have a feeling we may have more in common than we may have thought.

Yup it sounds awfully familiar.

[noiretextatique]

26. denial is part and parcel of american racism

it is the glue that keeps it alive and kicking. once president obama expressed support for the martin family, the "opposition" had to take the opposing view, to exploit the hatred that they know exists, even if they do not agree with it personally. and i find it hard to believe that many on the right are actually the racist assholes they know they need to appeal to "win."

[get the red out]

28. From an idiot

I readily admit to being an idiot when it comes to racial issues, I was born into a very homogeneous community. I was fortunate enough to be brought up by liberal leaning parents though and didn't internalize the blatant racial prejudice that existed in my part of the country. So I'm an idiot, but I also have no trouble realizing that I have "white privilege"; maybe because of where I come from, and knowing that African American people had been literally run out of that community a couple of generations before I was born.

My Dad always told me the story of when he joined the Air Force at 17 and was stationed in the deep south for basic training and saw segregated facilities (right down to the water fountains) for the first time. It blew him away, he thought it was horrible, he obviously knew he had white privilege, even as a poor kid from Appalachia.

I think perhaps white people who were fortunate enough to grow up in more diverse environments don't see the privilege as easily, maybe because they just don't want it to be true and felt like everything around them was ok. Sometimes when you find something really horrible you can just start believing it isn't going on.

[uponit7771]

30. You make a good point about racially diverse communities...I can see a person of any race

...minimizing advantages they have because they see so many different people around them so successful on so many levels.

It sounds like it really depends on what a person is immersed in for a good portiion of their lives.

I didn't even know racism existed in America until my parents had us look at "To Kill A Mockingbird".

I was in Germany from 3-10yrs old and didn't recognize much racial tensions as a military brat

[Nye Bevan]

31. Because a black guy is President and they're not? (nt)

[CTyankee]

32. It was made quite clear to me during diversity training at my job.

We all lined up at a starting line. Anyone born white were given several steps forward right at the beginning. As more questions about race, class and gender were asked, it became very obvious who were getting privilege simply for being born white (and male and into the middle class).

[slampoet]

36. Name all the Canadian Black NBA stars in the hall Of Fame.

Well?

[KamaAina]

37. All that white liberal guilt

skewered in the classic Murphy Brown episode where FYI gets a new producer who is African American. He also happened to be a tough cookie, but no one dared speak up, because...

"because he's... you know!"

"What?"

"You know!"

Finally Miles breaks the tension: "Baldwin... is black. There. I said it. No judgments. But he is... black."

[dkf]

39. Or lack thereof...

[Shankapotomus]

45. I'm white

and I totally admit I am unjustly given a racial advantage in this country.

And I also agree with you that it is not being divisive at all. The more African Americans are resisted on this, the more right they have to be suspicious of white culture.

I firmly beleive that, when you have one culture that is uncomfortable and clearly the fairness of their treatment is questionable, it is the responsibility (and in good taste) for the culture suspected of being unfair to try and make the culture's feeling alienated more comfortable.

If your own countrymen are not comfortable and have legitimate reasons to feel that way, why wouldn't you want to remedy this? Resisting just makes it worse and supports people's negative suspicions.

[uponit7771]

47. "it is the responsibility (and in good taste) for the culture suspected of being unfair to try and..

... make the culture's feeling alienated more comfortable"

YOU PROGRESSIVE!!!

I agree whole heartily with this, if there's some reasonable means and it's in ones power then there's an obligation

Maybe that's part of the resistance to even admit an advantage exist especially amongst conservatives

[Shankapotomus]

54. An advantage absolutely exists

When I go on a job interview, I don't have to think about or wonder if my skin color is going to secretly get me rejected for a job. There may be other things about me that not get me the job. But If I get rejected for a job position, I don't have deal with the doubt or wonder if I was secretly rejected for my skin color. I don't have to deal with that mentally. If I did, and I was rejected for job after job, I could understand how that could erode my drive to succeed and my enthusiasm for life. Even if it wasn't happening every time or even any time, the uncertainty of not knowing, of always doubting and being unsure of people's motives would just wear you down. That's why Affirmative Action is so needed. The doubt and suspicion is too ingrained now from hundreds of years of white culture's resistance to helping AA culture. The doubt won't go away and other way. We have to be willing to self-regulate ourselves.

Which is worse, Affirmative Action, where I know I am being temporarily passed over to balance out an injustice in our culture and make our society more equitable or being silently discriminated against based on race to reinforce the status quo and keep one section of the population under a boot?

The former is a tax I am happy to pay for my African American brothers and sisters because it avoids the latter.

[JonLP24]

46. Sports is a special case

They stay true to hiring the best at their ability, you'd notice a significant drop off if teams choose to discriminate. Discriminate hurts businesses in the regular business world but the effects are difficult to notice if the employees are easily replaceable. NBA is an interesting case as you can't teach height so true, taller players who are also good have advantages. NBA also the highest marks for non-discrimination practices, notably in hiring head coaches and front office positions. Interesting (I can't source it at this time) it has been shown that white players with similar stats to a black player are often paid more. All other top professional sports in USA receive an "A" for non-discrimination but you do see cases of statistical discrimination which explains why you often see women as nurses to give a more obvious example. In MLB you see few black players in the infield, 70% IIRC are in the outfield. In the NFL until recent history you saw few black quarterbacks. NBA & NCAA teams overlooking Lin is likely an example of that even though there are those that say "Linsanity" deflated but after that stretch of great games he was still putting up better numbers than Kemba Walker to use an example of a player at the same position with about the same amount of NBA experience when it comes to minutes played though Lin didn't play much first month or so.

[joshcryer]

48. Racial characteristics are hard to shed, and we don't like the idea...

...that we have advantages due to something we can't really control. (Yes, there are cosmetic things you can do, like some short people have gotten heightening surgery, to much success, but these kinds of things are not easy and very expensive.)

But it's a simple fact of life, and if you can't recognize it, it's OK, but don't tell us it's not there when we recognize it. Look more closely at yourself to recognize it in your own life, the advantages and disadvantages crop up on a regular basis.

[redqueen]

49. +1

Also, it'd be nice to not be lectured on how anyone who talks about it is ruining everything and chasing away all the poor white men.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Believe it or not it is both simple and complex

Simply put admitting it means we have a problem

The complex part, we'd have to do something about it...the answer to this is pregnant with conflict and Race relations. Humans tend to be conflict averse.

[jtuck004]

52. Question: Might white people consider that black folk won't be any better off when they

come to that brilliant realization?

What happens next?