On common Core

[nadinbrzezinski]

I hate to even go there but...the concept of Common Core was a good one.

I don't know if any of you remember where it came from. So I will remind you...military brats. A common problem these kids had (and to a point still do) is that if parents were transferred from let's say Pensacola Fl, to oh San Diego, unless the kids staid within the military system, which is minuscule, they could lose grade levels, because they were going from a poorly performing school system to San Diego Unified, of Poway which were better If they went the other way, they could gain grade levels.

So the concept was, like many other countries around the world, that the kids would have to learn the same material if they were in let's say third grade.

I know it has become a punching bag and IMO it is not the concept that is the problem. At a high policy level that idea is not bad. This level of consistency is good. The problem is implementation. What some call low policy level.

We literally have a high level policy that was needed, implemented at a mid level in a way to benefit the testing industry. I don't know how many here remember Neil Bush? Remember what he does these days? Oh yeah he develops testing materials. That is where the charges of oligarchy comes in. Who else is involved in testing? Bill Gates, who also has enough money to be a kingmaker.

And like common core there are other examples. The high level intent is not that bad. It is, as they say, in the details.

IMO common core not just needs a top bottom review, but the testing is at the very least excessive. I would not mind getting rid of most of it...hey, it works for Norway, which has a version of national educational policy.

Some of the local implementation is ok. At least locally it now includes creative and critical thinking. Though this is not at the heart...testing is. See the problem?

The other problem is the inherent distrust of government. I hear it from both parents and candidates...local control...argle, bargle, local control...get rid of the DOE.

And why am I bothering to post this? This is the kind of actual policy nuance that many discussions lack, and not just here, even with candidates. At times even at the presidential level...(yes Perry I am looking at you, same goes for Ted Cruz, and I could include Rahm Emanuel and Cuomo on this) given the nature of media they run on ideology, not policy. And that...is a problem.

[Pisces]

1. Excellent analysis.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Thanks, I enjoy policy these days

[liberal_at_heart]

3. We will never see great innovation from our society again until we invest in our

kids' individuality. Breaking the mold is what produces greatness, not following like sheep.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. And that us what the emphasis in creative thinking at San Diego Unified does

And we are talking a system that has gone from pedestrian performance under three really bad chief administrators to one under a young, vibrant one that is emphasizing creative thinking.

I know you hate it...but at a high policy level it is not a bad idea, in fact it is a very good idea. It is at the mid level policy and implementation where reviews need to happen. This was one of the defects of it. The only evaluation mechanism is testing, and that is a problem.

Norway, for comparison, has very little testing, if any..all the way to PhD. They have an extremely high performance system, with at times PhDs teaching HS physics. Pay is also conducive to attracting those teachers. We do not attract that caliber as a general matter.

We also have another problem, that is economic segregation. Until we deal with that, in a serious manner...

[liberal_at_heart]

5. So what happens to the kids that can't keep up with the curriculum? Do they get a more

customized curriculum or are they just expected to improve? My son is about two years behind his general education peers. Why is that a problem? So he takes two years longer to finish school than other kids. So what? When he is 25 years old what will it matter? For kids that can handle an advanced curriculum that is great. My daughter actually took several advanced classes in school. But for kids that learn at a different pace there needs to be a more customized curriculum.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. In other places around the world they would not have waited that long

To find out what the issue is.

I do not know the specifics of your son, but in general we have a series of implementation, not high policy issues, that are the serious problem.

I will not ask where you live, but taking a stab in the dark, if your school is in the wrong side of the tracks, or just in a poorer area, the resources are not there. This is a problem the local administration is trying hard to deal with (and somewhat successfully, still La Jolla High has more money than oh Martin Luther in South East...they have a long way to go but at least now they admit they have the issue...they denied that for decades)

By the way, you have valid reasons to hate it. I do not know if going over your school principal and demanding the services directly from the school board will work. At times, I have no idea of your particulars beyond what you have posted here, school boards order the school system to both test to find out the educational issues and pay for tutoring like Silvan.

[liberal_at_heart]

10. Actually our last school that we had such problems with the math curriculum was in affluent

neighborhood. We are now in a not so affluent neighborhood and we still have problems only this time it is in English Class. His math class is actually going back and teaching him all the things he never learned in Common Core math at his last school. But this school has a Common Core English class which even his teacher hates. I don't understand your comment about other countries not waiting so long to see what the problem is. There is no problem. My son is autistic and he learns differently and at a different pace than other children. there is nothing wrong with my child. There is something wrong with how they are trying to teach him. They are suppose to go by an individualized learning plan, but they have all but ditched that for Common Core.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Then your child would be in a special needs class

Sorry, I assumed ADD or other in the spectrum.

The difference is, in the US there is a certain level of shame and warehousing. In other countries there is adaptation and education and kids in the Autism disorder are considered valuable. (I am talking Europe, not Lat Am, where this does not even exist as a recognized issue)

What you are fighting is not common core, but social attitudes vs the disabled. This is a society wide issue, not just school related.

Ask the administration, I am as serious as a heart attack, about tutoring

[liberal_at_heart]

12. Special education children are not the only ones who learn differently or at a different pace.

My fight is with Common Core. I am done arguing. I have Kung Fu class tonight which by the way allows people to learn at their own pace.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Have fun

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Ok I will go public with this.

Look, I get the issue. I have ADD. I know how kids in the spectrum learn differently. I went to school in another country where yes, I struggled. You think school is hard here, no it is not. It really is not.

When I went to school there was no ADD or autism or any of that recognized. Back in the 70s I was one of the first lab rats to get Ritalin. It helped by the way.

I learned of my diagnosis at 27, when I was struggling to finish a Masters in history. You think school is hard? Wait for college. I mean this, schools these days have a lot more help than they used to, but you need to ask. And this change at a policy level will not stop on account of your son.

But I have walked in those shoes...I failed, and had to take special tests for both math (it was pre calc in what in the US would be Second year HS, and Physics. No they were not AP, we did not that have that. They were part of the core curriculum mandated by the National University. It was a hell of a blow to my self esteem. But I am sure your son, with the help he needs, can succeed.

On the bright side I repeated Chem 101 in college (and still struggled, dysgraphia and a mild displacement of numbers is just great). I know you do not want to hear this. And I will understand if you put me on ignore...but if we had no common core your son would still have similar issues. States have had set achievement goals for decades. Depending on the state the Federal targets were either similar, California, under, Massachusetts, or well above, insert state here in the Deep South.

So I will ask, if CC was not here...who would be to blame?

[liberal_at_heart]

28. My son would be much better off without Common Core because they would be focusing on his

individualized education plan instead of Common Core. They did focus on his IEP when he was in elementary school. The teachers and I would all meet and agree what HIS educational goals for the year would be. They were incredible. They would push him to realize his potential but when he would start having break downs they would back off and adjust the curriculum. Then all of a sudden in middle school everything changed. They forced him to take a 6th grade math class even though he had a 4th grade math comprehension. He was in 9th grade this year, and he was in a different school that didn't have a Common Core math class. They had to go back and teach him multiplication and division because he never actually learned what Common Core was trying to force him to learn. They just passed him through the system. This school however does have a Common Core English class, and even the teacher doesn't like it. The public education system has been having major problems for three or four decades now. Ever since Reagan brought us Trickle Down Economics we decided that we didn't need to increase funding for schools. Now with little money and little resources our teachers and kids are expected to make light years of improvement in the matter of a couple of years. It just doesn't work that way. I just hope that by the time my kids have kids the data is out to prove Common Core and Race to the Top wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Then consider home schooling

Because the issue is not Common Core, those are state goals of what a child needs to learn at grade level... they existed before Common Core, California for example, has had state minimum goals for decades, before Reagan was governor even. I am serious. The issue you have is with curriculum implementation. and some implementation and assessment is well, to put it bluntly...lousy

I have walked those shoes. Been there get it. When your son goes to college there are state minimum mandates as well for both community colleges and four year colleges. It is part of the credentialing, certification of programs. They came to be well...before Common Core. Common Core is a big picture policy matter. Curriculum is the implementation of those mandates. And a school that receives state/federal funds has to meet those teaching goals. It is the law. So there is no way they are following it for the English curricula, but not Math. If they are doing that, they are violating state and federal law.

What Common Core does at a policy level is take standards and make then national, so a kid going to school in Pensacola is learning multiplication at the same grade level as a kid in San Diego. Believe it or not...how school districts meet the actual goal is up to each district. Which is actually, IMO, a weakness. But it is doing nationally what states used to do. San Diego kids are supposed to learn the same things at grade as kids in San Jose, it's been the law for decades. Now they want this to be national regardless of where the kid is going to school.

As to funding yes, it matters. We don't invest enough in schools. That is not Common Core...it is resource allocation and at a very large picture level, DOE gets less than 5% of the Federal budget...DOD gets 57%. And it depends on your state as to how much your state spends. If you are in a donor state you are likely not seeing one red cent from the Federal Dept. of Education budget. If you are on a taker state then you are.

Internally in states some wealthier counties are also donor counties, sending money for poorer counties, through the state General Fund, or whatever nomenclature the state uses. But your local school is getting most of your school money from your mostly local property taxes. Rich cities have more money than depressed areas. IMO, and that of experts this also leads to economic and academic segregation.

Sorry, for the long explanation, but if you really need to be angry at anybody, it is whoever is developing the curricula locally and implementing it and you should ask, funds should be there, for tutors.

I am trying seriously to help. I want your son to succeed, but the big picture policy is not the issue, it is the implementation of the policy at the local level. That has been a problem well before Common Core. Hell, San Diego Unified and Poway, they share borders, do not share the same teaching material. Did I mention they are right besides each other? Poway is better than San Diego at carrying out the high level policy. But we all are asking for how long incidentally. It is...a superintendent and money issue.

[liberal_at_heart]

31. you can argue till you're blue in the face. Even his teachers know Common Core and Race to the

Top are to blame as is a lack of funding. and I know it too. I am in the trenches with my son and his teachers. We are experiencing it first hand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. I am not arguing

I can present you facts. I am not surprised teachers are blaming CC for their own lousy, or more likely their own district lousy implementation. See, I don't blame the teachers, but they are also blaming the wrong horse and I am sure they used to blame state goals too. I know one of our veteran teachers admitted as much in a moment of candor. It is much easier than fighting her management. Which incidentally, I get...it is at times next to impossible.

And yes, it is a money issue...but it is also an implementation issue and that is not done by the Department of Education at either the Feds or State level. That is the way it actually is. So you can be in the trenches all you want, blaming the wrong horse ain't gonna help. But keep at it, I will now ignore anything you write on this subject. Trying to point you in the right direction is not going to work, so will not waste my time any longer. I wish you luck though, because you will need it.

[liberal_at_heart]

45. I agree. I think you and I are done discussing this. I am not going to change your mind and you are

not going to change my mind. It is heartbreaking to have such a bright child come home from school crying because he thinks he is stupid when you know it is not your child that is stupid. It is just that the school system is only set up for those who can keep up with the pace that is set for them like an Indy pace car. It is not set up for those who are different. This world is set up for clones. There is no room for individuals. That is what is more heartbreaking than anything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. I have walked those shoes

Add to that being mercilessly bullied by my class mates. To the point that to this day if I see them in the street, not often, two different countries, I will cross the street. So please do not try that with me. But if you do not get how to get the help, I cannot help.

Good luck.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Oh and I forgot

Race to the bottom is a wrong headed policy. And there are solid reasons why. That is the implementation of policy that is making people like Neil bush very wealthy.

[liberal_at_heart]

32. I agree. And Common Core is making people money too.

The republicans are privatizing our public education system and the democrats are just sitting by letting it happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. It is not common core

It is separate. And it is not unlike your state goals. That is what you do not understand.

State goals have existed for decades...I will ask again, who would you blame if we only had state educational targets? Because I can guarantee you would be having similar issues.

[liberal_at_heart]

44. You are not listening. He was doing fine in elementary school when they were allowed to teach

him 4th grade math in 5th grade. It wasn't until they forced him to take a 6th grade math class when he only had a 4th grade math comprehension that we started having problems. Up until then I was perfectly happy with his education. Once he hit middle school they tried to force a boy who couldn't multiply and divide to do algebra. Now they are trying to force a boy who can hardly write two paragraphs and find a main idea in a paragraph to write cuplets. I'm telling you the individual education plan is all my son needs. He does just fine when that is what "the state" is having him follow. You know why? Because there is flexibility with an individual education plan. There is no flexibility with Common Core.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Talk to your elected, yes elected and *very local,*

Board of education. Your son belongs in special Ed. Your local, yes locally elected board of education is forcing this when obviously he does not belong in a regular class. It is not common core who is at issue here, it is your very local, elected board of education.

And you have yet to answer how will he function in college? There standards are even less flexible.

[RayOfHope]

54. Again, this is a middle school issue and not a common core issue. He's currently in 6th grade, right

What grades were his elementary school, k-5? Its easy for those teachers to collaborate and borrow each others curriculum materials. If he is in a middle school in a separate building, his teachers probably don't have easy access to the math curriculum of the lower grades, or they may be using a different math curriculum entirely, which is often the case.

[RayOfHope]

51. This isnt CC. This is middle school versus elementary school issue.

Elementary teachers are much better equipped with the training and tools and class sizes to differentiate instruction (teaching kids in ways they learn best).

Can you explain more about a "Common Core Math Class"? If a state has adopted the common core, they don't have "Common Core" and "Non Common Core" math classes. They have to teach CC.

[FourScore]

61. liberal_at_heart, your child is so fortunate to have you.

you are obviously so passionate about helping him.

I understand quite well what you must be going through. Still, I hope you can consider what nadinbrezinski is trying to tell you. I have just been through this with my own BoE. (Our situation is somewhat different from yours, but still, very similar.) The BoE will not come to YOU and say, "Hey, we've got these great ways to help level the playing field for your child! We can give your kid just what he needs to succeed!" Just the opposite, in fact. Schools are doing all they can to minimize Special Ed and 504 plans because they become too costly. YOU must learn the law and go to them. YOU must tell them what your kid needs, and they must provide. There are many experts who can help you with this, from free services to very expensive special ed lawyers. We went the free route and learned all we needed to know and how to get it. It worked and has made all the difference in the world.

Just try this. Please. If you do, I know a person such as yourself -- with such tenacity and strength -- will be able to move mountains for your kid. Please. Just educate yourself on the law and what is offered for autistic children.

Just keep in mind, no one at your school district wants you to pursue the kind of help they must offer. In fact, they will most definitely dispute your child's need or eligibility. Even affluent schools do that. Just go into the process knowing they will dispute, but continue down the path of knowledge and law, and you will get what you seek for your child. Stop focusing for a while on common core. It is blinding you from finding the real solution.

I wish you and your child all the best.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Thanks and you are so correct

Boards hate informed parents, they really do

[GreenEyedLefty]

25. Usually the curricula are the same, but many districts use "differentiated learning."

It's an instructional delivery method that is supposed to meet students where they are at... supporting high flyers and students who are behind at the same time. In the hands of a skilled teacher, it is amazing, but it takes a lot of professional development and support from principals and administration.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. In general things have gotten much better

Even in the US.

[liberal_at_heart]

33. sounds good in theory, but my son has never experienced this is in the Common Core real world.

Classrooms are crowded, curricula are cram packed. The teachers can't keep up when they are all learning the same thing at the same time. How are they suppose to help the high flyers and the ones who struggle at the same time?

[TheKentuckian]

37. Not really. Saying "it isn't that bad of an idea" a few times

and saying it was implemented poorly.

Excellent probably means breaking down what went wrong and right, why, what might be different with different approaches and how to get from here to there.

This I call an opinion, not rising to presenting an argument and one that has taken the bait of an espoused but false rationale when the actual purposes are to break public education, make a ton of money for a few wicked fucks, dumbing down America, and assaulting the last vestiges of organized labor.

Her little chestnut is lost and next thing you know matters are worse after the "cure" than before it.

The feature is not the plan, the mission is misunderstood and what is the high level plan is twisted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. We know the intent

But actually some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time. Somebody else compared this constant harping to the ACA and the hate from the right. I would much rather have a well implemented national health care system. You know what? A national curricula is not crazy and has been a goal of some educators starting in 1820 or so. In the modern GLOBALIZED world it is critical.

Now that is a high policy statement. We want a kid in Pensacola to learn to add and subtract at the same grade level as a kid in Honolulu.

Now race to the top is a mid level implementation and a bad one. There are legions of reasons for that. But you know what else is a problem at a mid level policy level? We are leaving this in the hands of individual districts and are not requiring school teachers to get the continuing education to get them in line with the implementation, or worst, teaching schools are not consistent in their training either. So a few give teachers OJT in a classroom, most don't.

Another mid level policy level issue is the constant assessment. As other nations move away from it, due to the issues it causes we are adopting it. And incidentally this is a huge critique.

So going back to the ACA, should we get rid of it or just try to move forward with the reforms needed? Because you are asking us to throw away what in principle would actually modernize education if we take the high level policy, and start to actually change the implementation at the mid and low level policy making. And it could be good, but change, we all get it, is scary as hell...and having the Feds tell schools...shit kids should be able to leave first grade able to write and do some limited reading is crazy. Never mind other nations are currently having this standard in K-grade.

[TheKentuckian]

57. No, some like to think they can walk and chew gum at the same time when they are going to

get us and generations of kids chewed up and walked on because of magic faith in good intentions and lemonade from lemons because you cannot or will not accept what is driving all policy issues on a deep level.

Implementation is going swimmingly, the "high level policy" is not what you insist it is. The high level policy is to dismantle public education, funnel a good bit of money, break unions, and sheep up the kids (and the next adults aka workforce and electorate).

Your "high level policy" is the sales pitch, stressing a sensible feature that I actually agree with in a vacuum but not so much where it can only present as a disastrous scam that is pushed by both "governing" parties. The benefit is greatly dwarfed by the harm. You cannot tinker with implementation on something this fundamentally important when the actual intents are so damn nefarious.

National standards are a potentially good thing but not even close to worth what what is driving them presently which is why implementation sucks because what is implemented is actually the agenda not standards which they could give a shit about either save for the well heeled and they know exactly which schools to send their kids to and always have since other kids have been able to go at all.

Shit, I see miles walked backwards and no gum chewed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Then by your logic we should have listened to Cantor and Bachman and never implemented the ACA

it is the same exact logic.

[TheKentuckian]

67. That isn't what I said and I have never evah have suggested anyone listen to Orange and Smarm

Last edited Sun Jun 22, 2014, 11:10 AM - Edit history (1)

for any reason.

It sounds like you are stating the Wealthcare and Profit Protection Act do more harm than good to achieve something potentially laudable but dwarfed in benefit to harm done. I'm not willing to go that far, though I have ever stated that potentially this could be the case and as such did not support passage of the final bill but I will say I do see it very much like I do part D, a boondoggle that should not have been passed but I am unwilling to say either should be recinded until they are superceded by laws that provide the benefits without screwing the pooch seven ways until Sunday because lives are at stake and the benefits to alleviate pretty massive suffering and pain are in place.

So, yeah the logic can be said to be COMPARABLE but not the same at all. National standards are not pressing, life and death matters. I don't see any argument articulated saying that folks are going to die by the thousands and suffer by the millions without this benefit. I don't think these health care crisis situations are remotely compare able to national standard in education. Especially with what you are willing to trade to get there, I don't see how you could imply that there is any net benefit and I keep identifying deep net harms that you don't even argue with.

On this track, if you get your way there will be little left of education for most children with public education gutted and made a mockery of, virtually no effective organized labor, and lots of kids robbed of their futures other than as barely literate drones for low level work.

Cost to benefit ALWAYS applies, Nadine. I can see the arguments for health care (I also don't see the same magnitude of costs and harm from current for standards either) but not for this even though I agree in principle. National standards are not more important than education, they are a tool to enhance education and make sure the kid in Mississippi gets the same quality and depth of knowledge that the kid in Vermont gets. I don't see the value as as high as you seem to. Nice feature, not of overriding importance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Actually national standards are pressing

for different reasons than health care. And yes, they are about life, quality of life, and what jobs future generations of Americans can and should aspire for. This is why the President is insistent on Pre K education, for example.

But I guess you are correct, and we should throw the baby out with the bath water and go back to complete, and local and shitty control IN fact, if I had my way, I would take away the excessive local control that districts still have. But that is just me.

Here, one of the many sources for pre K education and it's need and the rational for it. You can expand that rational all the way to PhDs by the way.

http://www.nber.org/erp/2014_economic_report_of_the_president.pdf

[TheKentuckian]

69. I don't disagree with you about the benefit, Nadine. I disagree about the net value of the benefit

weighed against the cost to get it under anything like current conditions. What you want comes with a price tag orders of magnitude greater than the actual benefit.

On the current track, once standards are used to corporatize, break down, deprofessionalize, and plunder public education the long sought and high prices paid for standards will become a mockery to create masses just educated enough to perform menial work for as low a cost as possible.

There is no baby, there isn't even a fetus, there is at best a fertilized egg in a bathwater of trillion gallons of poison sludge under the oversight and direction of villains of the worst description. Hell, if there was a baby I am forced by logic to cut my losses. The sludge cannot be dealt with or contained, the baby will drown in it one way or the other but perhaps many other babies can be saved from the tide of toxic filth.

The architects of all plausible plans right now have malicious intent and very different goals than yours and the tiger is too big and wild to ride to any actual benefit.

You also seem stubborn that your goal standards are the goal of the people scheming the standards when they are exclusively used as a propaganda tool to reach terminally nefarious agendas.

The prime agenda is not yours. One comes out far behind when they gain even the whole world and lose their soul, coming out with Australia at the sacrifice of the rest of the world (not to mention that soul) is not going to cut it.

You are not seeing the top line here because you are focused on your top line but you don't control the game and that edges you toward destroying the village to save it territory in this environment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Alas the brain drain will continue to deepen

And competiveness is not there.

You know what the true problem is? OMD's data point. 57% in defense spending this year. Less than 5% in research and education. Our priorities are screwed up. But do carry on

[TheKentuckian]

71. You have noticed that our efforts have only exacerbated the situation?

Have you not also noticed that competitive most commonly now means the cheapest labor, the least protections and solidarity for labor, and the least laws?

Don't be cantankerous with me, I did not set the game up like this, I'm just the one saying how it is.

You can't blame execution when the outcome is damn near a perfect reflection of the intent of the architects of the plan.
Your end is just the means employed to destroy education for the masses because it doesn't benefit them to have a bunch of people with a more than a surface knowledge of history, a functional grasp of science, a broad base of general knowledge, armed with critical thinking skills and open to curiosity around to figure out and use government to bring them to heel, you know self governance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Sorry, I am not being cantankerous

I am seeing three local systems do much better than even five years ago.

Alas they were not that affected by federal non mandatory standards, since they have had to follow the state mandatory ones since 1997. Surprised that Common Core is not mandatory? Or that it is not curricula? But do carry on. I will continue to believe the principle is not the problem. After all the principle works in advanced and not so advanced economies.

[SheilaT]

6. Yep. The underlying idea is important.

The fact that every single school district in this country can pretty much establish its own standards is ridiculous. Okay, so many (maybe all, I honestly don't know) states have statewide standards, there's still not much concordance across the country. I am very aware of specific places in this country where a school district in one part of a state has kids learning about a year ahead of kids on the other side of the state. Or across the state line.

Among the reasons so many other country's students test so far ahead of ours is that they do have national standards. And they pay teachers well. And give teachers the respect they deserve.

The saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." has been around for as long as I can remember. I have always found it singularly insulting to teachers. But it's to a large extent at the core of why teachers have not been respected for far too long.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. And we have been fighting this battle

Since the 1820s

[Pisces]

17. It would be nice if we could have a nuanced discussion about this. I think the policy is good and

the argument about the implementation are valid. I don't think anyone can argue that having wide and varying
standards is insane. I think that everyone in this country is hung up on how to spend the money in a fair way.
There is no fair in this world. More money should be doled out to the disadvantaged. We need more after school
tutoring for these students to get them up to speed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Some school systems are experimenting

With mixing up kids from different economic backgrounds. Economic segregation is a reality as well.

Teachers do not wish to teach in schools where most kids did not get breakfast and parents work three minimum wage jobs. This also needs to be part of the discussion

[frazzled]

7. Similar to International Baccalaureate ... created for diplomats' kids

A similar issue exists for children of diplomats, of every country, so in 1968 the International Baccalaureate program was founded in Geneva, Switzerland, and has been used in countries around the world—Europe, Africa, North and South America, and the Middle East—for many decades.

My daughter attended a public high school in Minnesota that had an IB program, where the teachers were specially trained to impart the high-school curriculum. It's kind of long and complicated to explain here, but basically it is a broad liberal arts and sciences curriculum that emphasizes primary resource materials (not textbooks) and written essay papers and examinations (i.e., no "multiple choice" kinds of tests--students, even for a biology course, focus heavily on written materials, in that case, studies and lab reports). One cool aspect is that, because it is an international program, students' final papers are sent to teachers in other countries--say, Wales--to be graded. This ensures not only an unbiased look at the work, but peer-review of the overall quality of the submitting school's program, to retain accreditation.

All students must also complete a two-year course in Theory of Knowledge, and to obtain the diploma, write a substantial original research paper, and complete 150 hours of community service as well as arts and sport activities. Oh yeah--and pass a several-day written essay exam in five different subject areas. It's a killer, but not so much that anyone cannot do it if properly motivated. And the beauty is that no matter where you go in the world, you may meet someone who has studied the very same things you have--creating common bonds.

[Pisces]

15. Wow, that sounds incredible. I am going to look into this. Thank you for the info.

[frazzled]

22. Start here

if you are interested in the original high-school diploma program. http://www.ibo.org/diploma/

They also seem now to have programs for the younger grades as well, and you can read their history and find schools in your area. http://www.ibo.org/

I forgot to mention ... students can get college credit for getting scores of a certain level on their IB final examinations (much like AP). This could save money when you get to college.

[Pisces]

24. Thank you !!!

[RayOfHope]

14. People also don't realize/know that CC is NOT A CURRICULUM. I keep reading "my kid didn't learn..

(insert skill here) from Common Core! It sucks!"

Wrong, common core isn't a curriculum. Its a set of learning targets. If your child didn't learn something it was either because the school didn't have the funding for new curriculum, poor implementation, or there WAS a new CC curriculum but it sucked--not that none of these is the fault of CC.

I'm a teacher and have worked EXTENSIVELY with common core. If you take the assessment piece out of it (and the assessment piece is a whole 'nother issue that is NOT CC, CC does NOT come with assessment attached) its solid. My students are having a lot of success with it, because luckily my district has the money for curriculum and training.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Exactly

San Diego unified is now having a lot of success with it for the reasons you outlined. They are now investing in the curriculum.

In some ways common core is a list of targets at the Federal level, not unlike the list of State targets.

I am not a teacher, I just read policy. Though I am biased. I grew up in a country with a version of CC targets. It was shocking to take chem 101 in college which was essentially using the same textbook I used in HS. Ok newer version and in English.

This is one of the things national targets seek to deal with.

[Pisces]

18. I think that the assessment should be removed for at least 2 years while schools and teacher figure

out how to implement as well as how to train the teachers. I think this would alleviate some pressure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Don't quote me, yet.

But I think that was exactly what was done California wide.

The first year the assessment was optional. The second it was given as practice and it started to "count" in the third year The reason: Curricula had to be developed. But at the same time they did the tests to literally test the system and work out the kinks.

[Pisces]

20. That would make sense. I hope that roles out to the rest of the country. I don't think states should

be able to opt out. I'm sure Jindal opened up a can of worms that will be headed to the Supreme Court.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Given the school system in NOLA, on purpose

[liberal_at_heart]

43. Then why are there Common Core text books? It is a curriculum. They tried to force my son to learn

algebra when he couldn't even multiply and divide. The math class he was in this year which did not follow a Common Core math book actually went back and filled in the holes. They taught him fractions, multiplication, and division. With any luck if we can avoid Common Core he will be ready for algebra in a year or two.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. I will try one last time

I will use my state.

Point to the actual curriculum and printed books in the Cal DOE page

http://www.cde.ca.gov/re/cc/

What you have there are standards. And this is what it means.

What are academic content standards?
Standards-based education guides the content that students should master in each grade and shapes curriculum development at every grade level. Teachers and local school officials, in collaboration with families and community partners, use these standards to help students achieve academic success. Although the standards are intended to provide objectives for students and teachers, decisions about classroom instruction are generally made at the local level by the teacher, local administrator, and/or the locally-elected school board.

California’s standards have been hailed for their rigor, setting high expectations for all students. Starting in 1997, California has adopted content standards in English language arts (ELA), mathematics, history–social science, science, visual and performing arts, health, world language, physical education, school library standards, and career technical education. California also has standards in English language development (ELD), which outline the stages of English proficiency English learners progress through as they become proficient in the English language. All of the content standards are posted in PDF and Word format on the CDE Content Standards Web page.
All of California’s content standards provide detailed expectations for what students should know and be able to do at each grade level. The ultimate goal of the education system in California is to ensure that all students have access to high-quality curriculum and instruction so they may meet or exceed the knowledge and skills outlined in the State’s academic content standards.

The state is not developing the books. The State, which you refuse to understand, is not developing the books. We are not in Mexico where the Federal government develops and prints the books in newsprint every year and gives them out for free for primary school, ergo they are in curriculum and materials development.

Each school district in California develops the books, handouts materials, buys them from a book printer in California or Texas (the two big printing houses are in those two states) it is this way across the nation. Your books and how to carry them out were chosen, ultimately, by your very local school board.


What did it change in California? Mostly nothing, the what little Johnny should learn in third grade did not fundamentally change from only state standards, The only thing that change is access to federal funds though the least performing districts are not very happy.

And some school boards are giving teachers a lot of freedom in how they teach and develop material and funding the necessary continuing education. others, most of them actually, are not. This has not changed and has Butkus to do with common core standards and all to do with local control.

You must live in one of the states that had much lower standards though. Most of the serious complains are coming from them, or the other end of the spectrum. For the record, Massachusetts was happy to learn that those were minimum standards to reach. Schools for the gifted are still way ahead of the rest of the country. Their achievement is average for world wide standards. Think about that for a second. Our gifted students test just average. Why are we setting such low goals?

And with that where us my wall? I really need it.

[RayOfHope]

49. It is *not* a curriculum. Curriculums lay out a scope and sequence, outline lessons, provide

activities and interventions and supplemental resources. The Framework for the Common Core State Standards does none of those things. I know, I have the math and ela frameworks right here at my desk.

You will indeed see textbooks that have "common core" labeled on the front. All that means is that the curriculum covers what is included in the CCSS.

I truly am sorry to hear of your struggles with your son. I am a current regular ed teacher, a past early childhood special ed and elementary special ed teacher, and my own son has Aspergers. It can be tough when there is a breakdown in what a child needs. I am seeing it in the school I currently teach in, but its due to the communication between the sped world and the reg ed world (delivery of instruction, resources, etc) and has absolutely nothing to do with common core.

[cali]

34. do you have any links that support that Common Core is rooted in the experience

of military kids? From what I understand, its roots are in other nations' practices, as this article says:

http://asiasociety.org/education/learning-world/global-roots-common-core-state-standards

I don't know if it's a "high level concept". I agree that the emphasis on testing is a huge detriment and wonder how much those who stand to benefit financially had to do with crafting the policy.

I actually am a proponent of local control and community involvement in education- and local also mean government. The DOE has a large role to play, but so should states, cities and towns.

As for comparing Norway with its population of 5 million to the U.S. and a highly homogenous population, I don't really see how that's useful. People here have pointed out to me, quite rightly, that in most instances, comparing VT to say CA, doesn't make much sense. Same thing here.

[RayOfHope]

53. Here's the great thing though, local districts still have control of how they teach it and when

So many people get confused (not saying you in particular) thinking CCSS dictates exactly what we do in our classrooms. It doesn't at all. CC says "here is what you need to cover" and it is absolutely and completely up to the classroom teachers and districts *how* we get there.

[bigtree]

39. I'm suspicious of the profit motive behind this CC concept

. . . Gates Foundation spread their money around Congress and got this fast tracked . . . it's like their computers; they lock you in to their new, unproven program and you're beholden to their product line to augment the curriculum.

More troubling, this is a conservative notion that poor schools have lower achievement rates because the curriculum isn't equal, when the problem is the poverty, itself, that's been proven to contribute the most to lower student performance.

Common Core tears down what we know works and forces a one-size-fits all approach that ignores other influences and barriers to learning and pretends as if teachers can just teach harder and make up the slack on their own.

I've never understood why our Democratic president insisted on implementing Bush's plan to push public education to the breaking point. Common Core will suck the life out of the system and all we'll be left with is another program that the more affluent still get the advantage and the poor are still left struggling to afford to keep up.

They need to put an end to this Bushian charade now or all our educational curriculum will be proprietary property of Microsoft.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. And I will point you to the mid level policy

Called race to the top, which you just described to a T. And which is the serious problem. Common Core is the Federal Implementation of your state educational targets. Those, at least in my state, are older than dirt, or at least me.

And I am not a fan of race to the top, but national educational targets are not that crazy. similar educational systems at a high policy level work for multiple advanced economies. I am not convinced the US is do damn special we should not try to have kids in Honolulu learn how to do fractions (a system at the bottom by the way) at the same time as kids in Massachusetts. Incidentally the latter is considered to have a top tier educational system. (Or systems, since we are talking of school districts in both)

By the way, Race to the Top is a successor to No Child left behind, which is also a mid level implementation that Teddy Kennedy was at first enthused for.

(I hate autocorrect at times)

[bigtree]

41. I don't have trouble with the targets

i think CC is structured to basically disregard other factors that stand in the way of student achievement in poorer schools and would penalize or unfairly pressure the teachers. Instead of the CC program itself recognizing those problems, it pretends as if the teachers are to blame for the shortfall and just forges ahead. That's the point where I think local boards and local control of curriculum makes the most sense.

Race to the top, combined with CC 'implementation', makes poorer schools responsible for factors that the program fails to address.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. CC is just targets at DOE

What needs massive reform is Race to the Top.

Think of race to the top, and it is approximate because the curricula is developed locally, as the school board looking at the list if state targets and developing a way to meet them.


We need a slew of changes to it.

1.- Money, economic segregation is starting to be seen as a problem

2.- Money for CE for teachers.

3.- The testing is quite frankly a way for people to make money (I am looking at you Neil and Bill) so the testing needs to go.

4.- And of course we need an end to the destruction of public schools

That does not mean we do not have issues, we do. International assessments are clear on this. So keep the national targets. That is the high level policy. Kids can handle them. Expand the lunch program to year round (my local district is not just doing that, is experimenting with how to increase reach because they know they don't have it fully during the summer, so school libraries will have food as well as boys and girls clubs). And here are critical points, during the summer train teachers and administrators, and in my view have kids from different socio economic backgrounds at schools regardless of where the schools are physically. Essentially make every school a middle class school and equalize funding across a district. I guarantee screaming at my ritzy areas.

These are just some ways to help. But demand high standards. The kids can handle it.

But throwing the baby (that be CC) with the bath water (the implementation which has many holes) is nuts.

As a nation we also need to change spending priorities from Defense to infrastructure, basic research and education. That is also a high level policy statement. As usual, how you get from those to implementation is the tricky part.

Now you asked why they kept it? Once you get a policy going it's very hard to turn that around. Why the republicans fought so hard to stop the ACA from being implemented. And while you have critics of CC, trust me school board meetings always have at least one of them, not everybody hates it. In fact, most people would look at us odd because what is Race to the Top and CC?

And locally one of my local districts (new young superintendent) is turning performance around after decades of pedestrian performance. She has support of the board and she is in the trenches with implementation. Now if I could clone her and send her to every district nationwide...and money is an issue btw. Shoe string comes to mind for the district.

[RayOfHope]

50. I wish I could recommend this post about ten million times. n/t

[msanthrope]

52. Excellent posts, all through this thread nadin. nt

[standingtall]

55. I am not expert on this

but to me common core sucks. We now have corporations being paid to develop test for students. Putting pressure on schools to get positive test results. Forcing teachers to put more time into teaching what is being ask in these test, and neglecting other areas. It is not a well rounded education. I do not view the notion of giving students more test to improve the educational system as something new, but instead just an old repackaged failed idea. Not to mention the enormous anxiety such testing can put on young students.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. And that you are critizing is not Common Core

but Race to the Top, the mid level strategic implementation, and it started well before CC with No Child Left Behind.

And did I mention the curricula and tests are approved at the LOCAL LEVEL by your school board? People should thrown rotten eggs and tomatoes, but not at the targets themselves, but those implementing it. With a few exceptions, most school districts have sucked in implementing any of this, partly out of resistance of change. And this is directly proportional actually to how strong the local teacher unions are. Places with strong unions have had no issues, mostly they already had similar standards. It is places with poor teacher protections and even less investment that are having all kinds of issues, and that is not accidental either.

There are reasons to be critical, but the top level idea that a kid in Honolulu should learn fractions at the same time as a kid in Vermont is not crazy. Before Common Core the difference could be even measured in years. So a kid that moved from Honolulu to Vermont would lose school years. That is a problem. It is a problem as well, when kids in gifted schools, the best and the brightest, are testing at mid point in international tests. We do not challenge our kids enough, and that does not translate to constant testing. But it translates to high academic achievement though, which we are not doing, and that is not good if we are to innovate and remain competitive in a globalized economy.

I will suggest that one reason for the brain drain the US is starting to experience is our substandard educational system and the resistance, in some cases on religious grounds, to change it.

[FourScore]

59. I'm confused.

Last edited Fri Jun 20, 2014, 02:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Are we talking about the state mandatory testing or assessments being implemented throughout the school year with common core?

Common core was a disaster here in NY this year. They just rolled it out too broad, too fast, and could we please have educators writing the curriculum???

I ask the question, however, because parents can opt their kid(s) out of state mandatory testing, which i wanted to do with one of my children. HOWEVER, I was informed by the principal that the school would lose all annual state funding for him if I made that choice. The school loses state funding for each child who opts out. (5% of the student body are allowed to miss - or opt out of - the test unpunished.) Since I live in a college town, many students leave with their parents for 6 to 12 months to go on sabbatical. They are, however, still enrolled in the school, just gone for a while. So, our 5% is eaten up pretty quickly. i am left having to choose between what is best for my child or what is best for his school. it's a bullshit law, but it was implemented here in NY to put parents in this position.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Common core is the goals

The assessment is race to the top.

Some states, mine...had next to no issues since the goals were mostly the same they already had in place, compliance with Feds opened the chance for districts to apply for Federal grants. So the only difference was the testing. My school district, San Diego unified, did not test the first year...second they did but it did not count, get kinks out. The third it will

Your district likely decided for faster implementation. How to meet those state /federal goals, ergo what books, teaching material, and how to test (which should go) is pretty much a very local decision taken by your board of education. The board has direct and absolute control, over that. The state (in your case NY) has a list of targets of what kids should know across the state at grade level. But it is just targets. They have very little to do, if at all, with actual implementation.

I am increasingly convinced school boards rely on this ignorance for when they suck at implementing it, or plain out chose a bad textbook, that "meets state goals" but sucks ass as a textbook. Then they can blame the terrible common core instead of facing the voters. And why school boards matter.

For the record, most textbooks are printed in either Texas or California. Why what happens at either state board matters since they have to meet those state goals first. Why when the Texas board wanted to get rid of evolution in science curricula both the Feds and many other state level boards had a cow...since they knew many districts would buy those books across the country. And some state boards questioned if those books would meet their own goals.

Most people here care about who controls the Senate, House and WH. But dang it, people need to pay close attention to who sits on school boards, triple so if you are a parent. For the record, all relevant info should be at the state Dept of Education of targets and overall policies. And at your local board as far as textbooks, testing, and the rest of it.

[FourScore]

64. I'm sorry, I'm still confused.

Take it a bit slower. My question wasn't about the materials, although that is also an interesting topic to be explored. (Which, BTW, no textbooks were used at my kids middle school for common core. The entire CC curriculum material was posted online.) It's about the "assessments" you keep talking about. I'm asking if you are referring to the assessments (or tests) given to students at the end of a unit (as most schools have always done)...or are you talking about state mandated tests which last for days and Pearson GREATLY profits from here in NY?

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. State mandated tests

Those are part of race to the top. They are still approved by your BoE. And yes, we have a small group of people profiting from them. IMO they are also counter to good educational policy.

[FourScore]

66. Yep! That's what I thought. I hate them. n/t