Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:37 AM Jun 2014

Morning Joke ongoing false equivalency BS on mass shootings

In the neverending stream of false equivalency that is Morning Joe, Mika, Joe, and one of the guests (Joe Heilmann maybe?) spent a few minutes at the end of their talk about the Oregon school shooting blaming the fact that nothing had been done since Newtown on 'the far left and the far right', saying 'everyone goes to their corners', with Democrats pushing gun control, Republicans blaming 'video games, Hollywood, ...'.

The reality, of course, is that the left blocked NOTHING, and the far left, along with 80-90% of the rest of America would have been happy to see even moderate reform on issues such as straw purchases, universal background checks, and maybe, MAYBE bullet limits on clips, drums, etc.

To give him his due, the guest did say it was more a failure of the middle, but he did nothing to push back on the false equivalency and added a little himself.

74 school shootings since Newtown. Anything done? No. Thanks exclusively to the NRA and their wholly owned Congresspeople.

54 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Morning Joke ongoing false equivalency BS on mass shootings (Original Post) Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 OP
"Morning Joke!" That, is the best description I've heard of this morning charade that poses as RKP5637 Jun 2014 #1
Not mine, I picked that up over on Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #2
I watched this morning just to see him groveling and lying about what happened to mfcorey1 Jun 2014 #3
It gives him the chance to talk even MORE about his time spent in Congress, even though CTyankee Jun 2014 #6
A back bencher who acts like he was a lead-off man Mike Daniels Jun 2014 #38
Yup. A legend in his own mind... CTyankee Jun 2014 #50
It was Senate Dems that killed post Sandy Hook gun control hack89 Jun 2014 #4
That would be a better argument if it's actually what Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #7
UBCs are possible if the president gags Diane Feinstein hack89 Jun 2014 #8
The gungeoneers make the same idiotic argument here all the time. DanTex Jun 2014 #5
It is a little more nuanced than that hack89 Jun 2014 #9
So in other words, tosh Jun 2014 #10
There is widespread support for UBCs in the RKBA forum hack89 Jun 2014 #12
I think that a great many of us "controllers" tosh Jun 2014 #16
I vote for Dems that vote for gun control. hack89 Jun 2014 #17
Do you contact your congress critters tosh Jun 2014 #18
Rhode Island is a very small state. hack89 Jun 2014 #20
Tosh, you need to stop pulling people's cards because gunz. Eleanors38 Jun 2014 #28
Not pulling cards here... tosh Jun 2014 #45
Okay. Some of us get accused of not doing anything Eleanors38 Jun 2014 #54
Because the gun nuts don't actually want gun control laws. DanTex Jun 2014 #13
But when you smear potential allies as "gun humpers" hack89 Jun 2014 #15
I wonder what percentage of your DU posts are spent defending Republicans. DanTex Jun 2014 #19
Thanks for making my point hack89 Jun 2014 #21
And thanks for making mine, by consistently defending Republicans and attacking Democrats. DanTex Jun 2014 #22
Senate Dems killed gun control post Sandy Hook. I am supposed to attack them? nt hack89 Jun 2014 #25
Actually, it was the GOP. But keep attacking the Dems. You're making my point over and over. DanTex Jun 2014 #27
So why did the Democratic controlled Senate fail to pass a single gun control law? hack89 Jun 2014 #29
The same reason they didn't pass immigration reform, public option, and a hundred other things. DanTex Jun 2014 #32
Because it was a political miscalculation of monumental proportions hack89 Jun 2014 #34
Just make sure you don't blame the actual people who voted against it. DanTex Jun 2014 #35
They wouldn't have needed a single Repuke vote to pass gun control in the Senate hack89 Jun 2014 #39
20% of Dems and 100% of Reps. Sure, conservative Dems are part of the problem. DanTex Jun 2014 #40
It is a given that Repukes vote against gun control hack89 Jun 2014 #42
Trying to reason with Republicans hasn't worked well on any issue. Gun control is no different. DanTex Jun 2014 #46
Right now you don't even have all the Dems on your side hack89 Jun 2014 #48
The AWB failed 40-60 . Can't blame that on the Repukes hack89 Jun 2014 #30
Umm, every single Republican voted against it. Most Dems were in favor. DanTex Jun 2014 #31
I am blaming the political leaders that botch their strategy hack89 Jun 2014 #33
Whatever twisted logic you can come up with to avoid blaming the Republicans, I guess. DanTex Jun 2014 #36
So the Senate Leader is blameless? The guy who controlled the entire process and fucked it up? hack89 Jun 2014 #37
The people who voted against it are obviously the ones who are most to blame. DanTex Jun 2014 #41
I agree - both Dems and repukes. hack89 Jun 2014 #43
Republicans and *conservative* Dems. DanTex Jun 2014 #44
Democrats none the less hack89 Jun 2014 #47
Conservative Dems are a problem, yes. On many issues. The party has drifted to the right. DanTex Jun 2014 #49
I am liberal as they come on social issues hack89 Jun 2014 #51
Maybe. You really only seem to care about guns. DanTex Jun 2014 #52
ok nt hack89 Jun 2014 #53
Yes, we all know that you agree with Joe Scarborough. That was my point. DanTex Jun 2014 #14
No - we sometimes disagree with you hack89 Jun 2014 #23
Who's "we"? You and Joe Scarborough? DanTex Jun 2014 #24
ok. nt hack89 Jun 2014 #26
Its the same false equivalency bullshit again... butterfly77 Jun 2014 #11

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
1. "Morning Joke!" That, is the best description I've heard of this morning charade that poses as
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:45 AM
Jun 2014

a relevant morning show.

mfcorey1

(11,012 posts)
3. I watched this morning just to see him groveling and lying about what happened to
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:35 AM
Jun 2014

Cantor. Naturally, he had to bring the democrats in and warn that this will happen to them. Morning Jokester!

CTyankee

(64,051 posts)
6. It gives him the chance to talk even MORE about his time spent in Congress, even though
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:58 AM
Jun 2014

nobody gives a sh*t. He just won't shut up about it. And he's nauseatingly self rightious about it.

I did like that he had Joy Reid on today. I like her. She's refreshing...

Mike Daniels

(5,842 posts)
38. A back bencher who acts like he was a lead-off man
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:44 AM
Jun 2014

Never mind that Joe's revisionism aside, the political atmosphere compared to today was just as poison during the time Joe did his "service" (the Clinton "hit-list" accusations were tolerated by the GOP then just like "birtherism" is now). The thing I find intolerable about Joe's rosy nostalgia is his portrayal of himself as being a player during that time when all accounts were that he was basically the equivalent of Michele Bachmann in terms of actual accomplishments.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
4. It was Senate Dems that killed post Sandy Hook gun control
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:46 AM
Jun 2014

Harry Reid decided that protecting Dems running for reelection in pro-gun states was more important. Without getting into the entire "Harry Reid is not a true liberal" issue, gun control politics in Congress is a lot more complicated than left vs right.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
7. That would be a better argument if it's actually what
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 08:10 AM
Jun 2014

anyone on MJ had said. Their actual claims were that the reason nothing happened was that Dems all wanted gun control and Repubs all wanted to blame society and media.

I'm probably in the 99th % of leftward Americans, and I'd be fine with a deal that traded, say, universal background checks for a first amendment carve-out that banned video games in which you use guns, grenades, etc, to kill other humans.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
8. UBCs are possible if the president gags Diane Feinstein
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 08:29 AM
Jun 2014

and prevents her and others from introducing an AWB and other gun control proposals guaranteed to do nothing more than ignite a political firestorm.

It is time to embrace what is possible and get at least something passed.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
5. The gungeoneers make the same idiotic argument here all the time.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:51 AM
Jun 2014

Somehow, in their minds, the people who are in favor of gun control are just as much to blame as the people who are opposed to gun control for the lack of adequate gun laws.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
9. It is a little more nuanced than that
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 08:35 AM
Jun 2014

we usually point out feel good measures that don't actually address the problems. Or point out that certain proposals are blatantly unconstitutional and therefore impossible. Or in many cases, their proposals completely ignore American cultural and political reality. Or that by focusing exclusively on guns instead of people, they ignore other solutions that would work and are easier to implement.

Most often though, we point out that pro-gun advocates sabotage their own cause by their lack of self discipline - they call gun owners "gun humpers", pre-murderers and supporters of killing children and then wonder why we don't flock to support them.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
12. There is widespread support for UBCs in the RKBA forum
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:10 AM
Jun 2014

as well as many other gun safety laws. For example, I support all proposed gun controls proposals with the exception of an AWB and registration. For many controllers, that is not good enough.

tosh

(4,428 posts)
16. I think that a great many of us "controllers"
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:45 AM
Jun 2014

would gain a lot of respect for a group of "responsible gun owners" who organized and lobbied for such laws.

We have yet to see any such thing.

What we do see is groups of "responsible gun owners" organizing to advance their "rights" (example: Georgia's Guns Everywhere bill) and to block anything and everything that might make a baby step in the direction that we'd like to go.
We see - in DU's very own RBKA forum - a lot of denigration of groups like Americans For Responsible Solutions,
Mayors Against Illegal Guns, MOMS Demand Action and others.

We wonder, since these "rights" are so important to you, why you are not first in line to seek solution.

"For many controllers, that is not good enough." Why the hell should that stop you??

hack89

(39,171 posts)
17. I vote for Dems that vote for gun control.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:48 AM
Jun 2014

additionally, in the real world, I spend my spare time and money on other causes, specifically substance abuse. I understand the real threat to my kid's future.

tosh

(4,428 posts)
18. Do you contact your congress critters
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:50 AM
Jun 2014

when legislation is on the table? Or do you just post on forums?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
20. Rhode Island is a very small state.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:57 AM
Jun 2014

Because I am active in the state Democratic party organization, I meet my Senators and Representatives several times a year. I told them to support gun control legislation with the exception of an AWB and registration.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
28. Tosh, you need to stop pulling people's cards because gunz.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:12 AM
Jun 2014

There are a lot of liberal activists who own guns. And many are here in the "gungeon." Most have and continue to support UBC, and my congressman (whom I've voted and Worked for in various campaigns over 40 yrs) foolishly supports a Feinsteinish AWB. No one has a monopoly on activism, and no one gets to interrogate DUers on who passes the sweat test; if DU was HALF as activist as it says it is, we would have by now taken over the Party!

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
54. Okay. Some of us get accused of not doing anything
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:47 PM
Jun 2014

not gun-related. I'm not the spry late 60s activist I once was, but at 66, I try to put what little $ I have where my mouth is, and put some time into petitions & sweat equity.


DanTex

(20,709 posts)
13. Because the gun nuts don't actually want gun control laws.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:27 AM
Jun 2014

They are satisfied with the status quo, including all the mass shootings, but they don't want to admit it, so they want to pretend that it is really the Democrats and not the teabaggers who are to blame.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
15. But when you smear potential allies as "gun humpers"
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:32 AM
Jun 2014

it makes one wonder what you really want out of this discussion. Until you add compromise to your vocabulary, stop whining because you can't get all you want.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
19. I wonder what percentage of your DU posts are spent defending Republicans.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:55 AM
Jun 2014

I guessing somewhere in the 90% to 100% range. It's pretty odd. I've yet to see you point a finger of blame at the Republicans who actually voted against the law. It's always those mean Democrats who call Republicans names who are at fault.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
21. Thanks for making my point
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:59 AM
Jun 2014

disagreeing with you on gun control is defending Republicans. And people wonder why the gun control movement is a smoking wreck.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
22. And thanks for making mine, by consistently defending Republicans and attacking Democrats.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:01 AM
Jun 2014

It's convenient, in case anyone here is still wondering where your political allegiances lie.

It's truly bizarre that you can't bring yourself to blame the people who voted against the bill for it's failure. The indoctrination is pretty strong.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
29. So why did the Democratic controlled Senate fail to pass a single gun control law?
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:15 AM
Jun 2014

why did Harry Reid agree to 60 votes for passage of each measure? Why did Dem Senators vote against many of the proposals? Why did Dem Senators help Repukes nearly pass national CCW reciprocity that was stopped only by procedural rules?

I don't think you have actually studied the details of what actually happened that day. Think about it - the Senate met to vote on control and the only thing that would have passed was national CCW reciprocity.

On edit:

The assault weapons vote was 40 in favor and 60 against. The magazine ban fell with 46 in favor and 54 against.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/us/politics/senate-obama-gun-control.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
32. The same reason they didn't pass immigration reform, public option, and a hundred other things.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:25 AM
Jun 2014

Because of the GOP. What's odd is that you keep bending over backwards to blame Dems and avoid blaming Republicans.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
34. Because it was a political miscalculation of monumental proportions
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:36 AM
Jun 2014

they could have passed UBCs and called it a day. Instead they handed the repukes a major political victory. The Dems are to blame - they controlled the process in the Senate. And they fucked it up.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
35. Just make sure you don't blame the actual people who voted against it.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:37 AM
Jun 2014

That would be far too logical...

hack89

(39,171 posts)
39. They wouldn't have needed a single Repuke vote to pass gun control in the Senate
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:45 AM
Jun 2014

so explain to me how from a position of strength it got so fucked up?

20% of Dem Senators voted against an AWB. How was that possible?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
40. 20% of Dems and 100% of Reps. Sure, conservative Dems are part of the problem.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:58 AM
Jun 2014

But the main problem, obviously, is the GOP, a fact which you can't bring yourself to acknowledge.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
42. It is a given that Repukes vote against gun control
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:08 AM
Jun 2014

so any rational plan has to factor that in. Do you think there was a rational plan or was it all for show to placate the public until things calmed down?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
46. Trying to reason with Republicans hasn't worked well on any issue. Gun control is no different.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:16 AM
Jun 2014

They gave it a shot, but the political reality is that the GOP can block anything they want. The blame lies with the GOP.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
48. Right now you don't even have all the Dems on your side
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:22 AM
Jun 2014

with a simple majority vote in the Senate after Sandy Hook, we would have had the following result:

1. Universal Background Checks - passed 55-45

2. National CCW reciprocity - passed 57 -43


The following would have not been passed:

1. AWB
2. Magazine Limits

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
31. Umm, every single Republican voted against it. Most Dems were in favor.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:23 AM
Jun 2014

The blame lies with Republicans and conservative Dems. But somehow you want to blame liberals, which makes zero sense.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
33. I am blaming the political leaders that botch their strategy
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:34 AM
Jun 2014

they could have had UBCs in exchange for CCW reciprocity and everyone would have been happy. Instead they decided to dredge up everyone's pet gun control measure and fucked everything up beyond compare.

It was a major political miscalculation - surely they could have foreseen the results and have been smarted in how they introduced legislation. The president and house leaders completely misread Harry Reid's priorities.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
37. So the Senate Leader is blameless? The guy who controlled the entire process and fucked it up?
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:42 AM
Jun 2014

do you really think there was a chance of passing those laws? Would you have asked Harry if it was possible before trying? If he said no, would you have pressed on or would you have tried to salvage something out of the situation?

What is the point of have control of the Senate when you can't use that power wisely?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
43. I agree - both Dems and repukes.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:10 AM
Jun 2014

but it could have been properly managed to salvage something. They could have had UBCs.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
47. Democrats none the less
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:17 AM
Jun 2014

something you are going to have to come to grips with if you plan to make any progress. Solutions grounded in political and cultural reality are the ones that will succeed. Hopefully one day you will make that connection.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
49. Conservative Dems are a problem, yes. On many issues. The party has drifted to the right.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:22 AM
Jun 2014

I understand that you are happy about that, but most liberals I know think the party has gone too far right, and is already making too many concessions to the GOP. That seems to be where our difference of opinion lies.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
51. I am liberal as they come on social issues
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:27 AM
Jun 2014

marriage equality, gender equality, pro-union - apart from guns I doubt there are very few things we disagree on. Unfortunately your fixation on guns blinds you to any potential of working with Dems like me to find potential solutions. Oh well.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
52. Maybe. You really only seem to care about guns.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:36 AM
Jun 2014

If you actually care about those other issues, you should realize that it's the same coalition of Republicans and conservative Dems that are standing in the way of progress across the board. Unions are getting hammered even harder than gun control, and by the same people.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
23. No - we sometimes disagree with you
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:02 AM
Jun 2014

something that for some reason you cannot handle in a mature and rational manner.

But that's ok. I come here for hard edge discussion, and while somewhat immature and petty, your replies do provide that.

 

butterfly77

(17,609 posts)
11. Its the same false equivalency bullshit again...
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:03 AM
Jun 2014

whenever its about them its both sides fault. No matter the subject he always has to interject the when he was running garbage. This is not the same country there are more people but no one never acknowledges this when they spout this bull.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Morning Joke ongoing fals...