A Woman With Perfect Grades Is Worth The Same As A Man With A 2.0 Average

[kpete]

A Woman With Perfect Grades Is Worth The Same As A Man With A 2.0 Average
BY BRYCE COVERT MAY 21, 2014 AT 8:42 AM UPDATED: MAY 21, 2014 AT 8:55 AM

It may seem like high school grades don’t mean anything later in life, but a new report finds that high school grand point average (GPA) is a strong predictor of income in adulthood.

That doesn’t play out evenly, though. The team of University of Miami researchers found that a one-point increase in GPA means a 12 percent boost in earnings for men and a 14 percent boost for women. Even so, there’s a big gender gap in total earnings. A woman who got a 4.0 GPA in high school will only be worth about as much, income-wise, as a man who got a 2.0. A woman with a 2.0 average will make about as much as a man with a 0 GPA.



The data also show that average high school GPAs are significantly higher for women, but men will still end up having significantly higher income later on.

It also found that high school grades can indicate the likelihood of going to college, and that a one-point increase doubles the chances of completing a degree for both genders.


MORE:
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/05/21/3439865/women-gender-wage-gap-gpa/

[Romulox]

1. The logical corollary of all of this is that going to college doesn't guarantee higher income...

The data also show that average high school GPAs are significantly higher for women, but men will still end up having significantly higher income later on.

It also found that high school grades can indicate the likelihood of going to college, and that a one-point increase doubles the chances of completing a degree for both genders.

This data suggests that higher educational attainment does not automatically raise a person's earning potential. Working as a carpenter may earn more than a data clerk, GPA and degrees notwithstanding.

[GeorgeGist]

4. There are no guarantees in life.

Very astute.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

7. nice way to minimize the core finding.

Yay you! Post gendered world! Nothing to fight for, ladies (and gents, those who'd been allies, I mean. At least that's one less thing for you to worry about. Nice!)

[Starry Messenger]

2. That explains a lot. nt.

[hfojvt]

3. well my 4.0 isn't worth as much as my boss's GED

How many men and women really end up with zero for a GPA?

And as far as an average being a "predictor". Well, consider this graph (not the subject matter, but the graph) http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx

Showing men with a slightly higher average than women.

Yet, if you were to conclude from that, that men > women, there are huge exceptions to that statement.

That is there are a whole bunch of women > 105 and a whole bunch of men < 95.

Or, in this case, a whole bunch of people with 3.5 GPA making more money than people with 4.0 GPA. Enough exceptions to where GPA doesn't really "predict" squat.

[LeftyMom]

5. Maybe your boss gets paid more because she understands statistics.

[Orrex]

6. Burn.

[daleanime]

16. Smoke!

[Skittles]

41. aw SNAP!!!!!!!

I BOW TO YOU LEFTYMOM!!!

[bravenak]

45. Awesome.

That had to hurt really bad.

[Starry Messenger]

20. Wow, what a shitty crack you made below.

If you aren't banned for that, it will say a lot about this place.

[Squinch]

33. He's still active. Do we know if the alert went to the admins? I don't know how that works.

That post was abusive. I agree, he should be banned for it.

[Skittles]

42. long-time fly-under-the-radar

pulls the IS THIS HOW LEFTIES ARE SUPPOSED TO BEHAVE when someone calls out the BS

[Starry Messenger]

46. All the alerts go to the Admins now.

The Admins have been contacted by PM as well, via at least one DU member. I'll message them later too.

If this was anywhere else, that poster could be in legal trouble for such a shitty and abusive remark.

[Number23]

61. Yes, he should be. But we all know that he WON'T be

[VanillaRhapsody]

27. You are seriously going to use THAT website to support your spurious claims that

women are less intelligent then men and therefore should EXPECT to be paid less than men???

Seriously dude....that website reads like a High School term paper....

Epic Fail!

[Iggo]

8. Because babies...and, like, menstruation...or something.

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. I hate these type of "studies", as they are pretty meaningless ...

unless they compared male and female GPAs/Income AND control for occupation. A 4.0 female that becomes a Teacher will naturally earn less than the 2.0 male that becomes a hedge fund manager ... and the 2.0 female that becomes a MD will earn more than the 4.0 male that works pouring coffee at Starbucks.

[Demo_Chris]

19. Respect. That's absolutely correct. nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

22. Sorry ...

just a nasty habit I picked up in Grad School and from doing policy analysis work ... As the title goes, "The are lies, damn lie, and statistics", unfortunately most of the population (even those among the "educated&quot , is numerically illiterate.

[Chathamization]

21. Controlling for occupation misses a lot

Including what fields people are pushed into, and how different fields are compensated. If women are pushed away from becoming hedge fund managers, or if teachers are paid less because teaching is viewed as a "female occupation," it's pretty important.

[1StrongBlackMan]

23. No it doesn't ...

controlling for occupation makes this "study" valid, relative to the subject studied. HOW they ended up where the did, is irrelevant to what was studied.

[Chathamization]

24. Evidence of systemic inequality in our society is important.

Determining whether that inequality stems from discrimination at the workplace, inequality of opportunity, gendered biases against certain occupations, etc. is something that’s important to know when we try to combat it. But there’s no reason that would make such inequality acceptable, so I don’t see how studies showing gender inequality are somehow invalid just because they don’t show the exact breakdown of the inequality.

[1StrongBlackMan]

25. I agree with most of what you write ...

Determining whether that inequality stems from discrimination at the workplace, inequality of opportunity, gendered biases against certain occupations, etc. is something that’s important to know when we try to combat it.

Particularly that part. But this study is poorly (simplistically) designed and is invalid for arriving at a conclusion of discrimination.

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. Males make more than women in pretty much ANY job....including

those traditionally considered female..including Nursing and teaching...

Your theory is flawed too.

If what you think were true....then females in traditionally female jobs would make more money than the males....yet next to none do!

[Orrex]

10. I guess I make as much as a woman who pulled a 5.8 GPA.

[oneofthe99]

11. It depends on the job a woman chooses

If a man chooses to be an electrical engineer and a woman chooses to go into
social work you can't compare the two.

The GPA is irrelevant in this study

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. No not true...even in traditionally female jobs like teaching and nursing...

males still make more money....

[oneofthe99]

32. My daughter is an RN in the largest hospital in Massachusetts

Every job she has ever applied for the wage was always posted
My niece is a teacher in NC , every teaching job she ever worked at the salary was always posted.

It doesn't magically change higher if a male nurse or male teacher gets the position

[VanillaRhapsody]

34. Your anecdotal evidence means nothing...

your personal story doesn't change the facts....

Women earn less in virtually every job.
It’s true that women tend to cluster in certain fields and men in others, and the ones women dominate usually pay less. But in virtually every job category tracked by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average woman earns less than the average man. Women only make more in three occupations for which there is adequate data to compare men’s and women’s earnings — they lose out in about 115 others. Even in those low-paid jobs that tend to be dominated by women, such as nurses, teachers, and secretaries, men earn more. And even in male-dominated industries like manufacturing, finance, construction, mining, and agriculture, women earn less.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/04/08/3424043/gender-wage-gap-myth/

[oneofthe99]

44. You are obsessed with something that's not true but in your own mind

It has been proven time and time again that the reason women earn less is because of the careers they choose.....period

[VanillaRhapsody]

47. Prove it!

I proved my position....period.

out of 115 careers....in only 3 did women make more than men...less than 3%!!!

and you are just another obsessed with proving that White Male Privilege doesn't exist!

Let me guess....you are White and male!

[oneofthe99]

49. When ever someone tries it seems to be reported and hidden

I know you have also read all the reports proving it but you choose not to believe them .

You have a nice night

[VanillaRhapsody]

50. NO you don't get away with it that easy.....I have read reports...and all of them find your

positions completely ridiculous.....You cannot even provide evidence....YOU think I should find evidence to support YOUR opinions....You imply that there are SCADS of these studies....YET you provide NONE!!!!


la epopeya falla!

[oneofthe99]

52. You have a good night

Believe what ever you want

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. Just like Climate Change.....I believe what the EXPERTS say.....

you believe what YOU want.....

[CreekDog]

62. You haven't posted a single thing on DU that Al Sharpton would agree with

what is up with using that avatar? are we supposed to think it means something?

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. And just to refresh your memory regarding my "obsession"....

Women earn less in virtually every job.
It’s true that women tend to cluster in certain fields and men in others, and the ones women dominate usually pay less. But in virtually every job category tracked by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average woman earns less than the average man. Women only make more in three occupations for which there is adequate data to compare men’s and women’s earnings — they lose out in about 115 others. Even in those low-paid jobs that tend to be dominated by women, such as nurses, teachers, and secretaries, men earn more. And even in male-dominated industries like manufacturing, finance, construction, mining, and agriculture, women earn less.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/04/08/3424043/gender-wage-gap-myth/

You damn right I am obsessed with women like myself being treated fairly in this world!

[TampaAnimusVortex]

56. Actually, the results of the study you reference were not conclusive.

If you follow the links in the article, it takes you to the following study.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf

On page 6, it states:

In conclusion, while we were able to account for much of the difference in
earnings between men and women, we were not able to explain the
remaining earnings difference. It is difficult to evaluate this remaining
portion without a full understanding of what contributes to this difference.
Specifically, an earnings difference that results from individuals’ decisions
about how to manage work and family responsibilities may not necessarily
indicate a problem unless these decisions are not freely made. On the
other hand, an earnings difference may result from discrimination in the
workplace or subtler discrimination about what types of career or job
choices women can make. Nonetheless, it is difficult, and in some cases,
may be impossible, to precisely measure and quantify individual decisions
and possible discrimination. Because these factors are not readily
measurable, interpreting any remaining earnings difference is problematic.

So - we must follow the logic of the research and avoid jumping to conclusion, however we wish them to be. Until more data is available, judgement must be reserved. Even right above that paragraph, they state a possible explanation.

For example, some experts said that some women trade off career advancement or
higher earnings for a job that offers flexibility to manage work and family
responsibilities.

Note: Not wanting to jump to conclusions and automatically label something as discrimination without first being sure about it doesn't automatically imply that one supports discrimination - but many times this needs to be said as people will take any position except full uncritical support as one of "siding with the enemy", when this is obviously untrue.

[VanillaRhapsody]

58. Actually....it was just trying to be kind to the opposing position....

there are hundreds of studies and I have recently posted dozens of them.....still some people CLAIM they have some studies to support their positions....yet they never seem to be able to put their hands on one.

[VanillaRhapsody]

30. No it doesn't ....if that were true....men in traditionally women's jobs would make less than women

and yet they don't.
You are the one drawing false conclusions over and over again.

[bravenak]

35. The results.

On Wed May 21, 2014, 03:08 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

More ways to slice and dice the debunked wage gap
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4981684

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"the debunked wage gap"

I'm sorry what kind of site is this again? Are rhese the GOP talking points they use against the Lily Ledbetter Act and the Paycheck Fairness Act? Democrats fight the wage gap. REPUBLICANS pretend it doesn't exist.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed May 21, 2014, 03:23 PM, and the Jury voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: More right wing talking points. Everyday pretending reality is not reality.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: So apparently wage gap denialism is a thing now. What happened to responsible Republicans like Lincoln, TR, and Ike?
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Abuse of alert system.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


I am number 2.

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. So much for "abuse of the alert system"...

[bravenak]

37. Shows how much they know! Took me two seconds to hide.

Tired of rightwing talking points.

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. thanks bravenak.....and thanks for saying you alerted.

those that oppose me regularly, think I just go around willy nilly alerting on them....I am often accused of it....

[bravenak]

39. No problem.

But by the time i got to it, somebody had done it cause i was called to a jury on it before i sent it in. Weird. The same post that i was about to alert on, i juried.

[VanillaRhapsody]

40. Oh! That is surreal!

[KurtNYC]

13. School is a highly structured artificial environment that rewards compliance.

On the other hand the workplace is a chaotic environment plagued with sexism, Dunning-Kruger empowered middle managers and the rewarding of risk aversion and political loyalties.

In my experience the best way for ANYONE to get paid what they are worth is to go into business for yourself -- contractor, consultant, therapist, musician, etc. Wherever your talents lie. The corporate world is a male-dominated heirarchy stuck in 1950s mentality and perpetually looking to save money by paying people less.

Another angle here, a study showed that white men value a college degree least. Those who valued it most are those who are most likely to be discriminated against in the workplace:

[Cleita]

14. That was so true back in my day.

I often worked for men with less education and skills than I had. Yet I earned about 35% less in wages than they did. The janitors often earned more than the women with advanced degrees in many companies. Too bad progress hasn't been made on this front in the last sixty years.

[dilby]

15. What the heck does a 4.0 in High School have anything to do with work?

High School Grades are not a sign of intellect or a determining factor on where you will be in 20 years. I pulled a nice 2.5 in High School because honestly the work bored me and was too easy. I just did what I needed to do to get a C and then skipped everything else, usually this was not doing Homework but getting A's on all my exams, it angered my teachers to no end. When I got to College that all changed, I was paying for it out of my pocket so I pulled a 4.0 plus the courses were structured where I was actually being challenged and learning stuff that was relevant.

[bigtree]

18. 'worth' much more, 'valued' less

[valerief]

26. I wonder if men with bigger penises make more money than men with

smaller ones.

Because, after all, it's all about the almighty penis, isn't it?

[VanillaRhapsody]

31. but the men will all lie about their size!

[maggiesfarmer]

43. uhhh, probably in exactly one occupation

[davidn3600]

48. I want a statistic that controls for the same job, same hours, same family choices, etc...

Last month, President Obama repeated an often-recited line that women “make 77 cents for every dollar a man earns” and that “a woman deserves equal pay for equal work.” This isn’t a new argument; politicians and others have used these types of statements for years to vilify big businesses as anti-women. Over a decade ago when she was a senator, Hillary Clinton attempted to pass the “paycheck protection act,” claiming it was un-American for firms to discriminate against women.

But this is misleading. The statistic Obama cites is only the average difference between men and women, across all jobs. It doesn’t control for the types of job, the number of hours worked or for time taken off (to raise children, for example).

If you insist that the gender wage gap is a result of discrimination against women, here are a few other claims that must be equally true. By the same logic, young men are discriminated against in favor of young women. Women in their 20s without children out-earn men by as much as $1.08 to every dollar, according to some estimates. It must also be true that white men are discriminated against in favor of Asian-American men, who earn over 5 percent more than white men. To claim either of these as discrimination would be ridiculous, though, right? There are differences in job types, education levels, hours worked, and other factors that lead to these wage differentials. But these factors are just as responsible for the overall difference in wages between men and women.

Once you control for factors such as college major, time off of the labor force to raise children, and hours worked per week, the gender wage gap essentially disappears. A big part of the difference in pay is due to the choice of jobs: women choose to enter career fields that pay less than those that men choose. Women are still more likely to be Kindergarten teachers while men are more likely to work in finance. In short, firms aren’t discriminating against women. The reality remains that women, on average, do earn less than men. But to blame it on discrimination is misguided.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/02/24/childless-women-in-their-twenties-out-earn-men-so/

[A Little Weird]

57. Here are some links if you're really interested.

This one talks about the gender gap in general and links to several other sources.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/04/08/3424043/gender-wage-gap-myth/

This one is kind of interesting and talks about the geographic variation in gender pay.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/meghancasserly/2013/09/19/the-geography-of-the-gender-pay-gap-womens-earnings-by-state/

This group found that the pay gap exists very shortly after college (before most people will have started families).
http://www.aauw.org/research/graduating-to-a-pay-gap/

This story talks about how there is even a gender gap in children's allowances.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/04/23/3430025/gender-gap-allowance/

I would be interested in finding out where the author in your link comes up with the statistic "Women in their 20s without children out-earn men by as much as $1.08 to every dollar, according to some estimates." He doesn't provide any sources and I can't find any data that supports that.

[davidn3600]

59. In the urban areas... young women without children earn more than men

Time magazine had an article on it...
Women under 30 who do not have children, who are not married, and live in 147 of the top 150 biggest cities in America outearn men by about 8%.

http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html


Here's another...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/11/millennial-women-wage-gap_n_4424939.html

[madville]

54. They need to account for career field/profession

They're comparing everyone equally which is kind of apples to oranges. Of course there is disparity when a man that dropped out of high school, got a welding certificate at the votech and now makes $60,000 a year is compared equally across the board to say a woman social worker with a Masters that makes $40,000 in a state job.

I had a 2.5 GPA in high school, have an associates technical degree and make $56,000 a year. My sister had a 4.0 GPA, has a Masters in Education and makes $47,000 as a second grade teacher.

I'm sure there is disparity within professions or among similar college graduates. My point is that comparing high school GPA alone is incomplete, there is so much more to take into consideration.

[davidn3600]

60. It also mixes generations

We are comparing the salaries of 60 year old women to 60 year old men and then throwing them in the same pot as 30 year old women and men. When you began your career 40 years ago, it was a different social climate.

What Im most interested in is the data concerning the younger generations. And that data shows the wage gap is closing.

[Lunacee_2013]

55. K&R. Nt.