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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:23 PM Mar 2012

Could Republican opposition to the mandate be a cover for dismantling the health care law?

This isn’t intended to say there isn’t valid opposition to the mandate, but that Republican opponents of the law are using disdain for the mandate to hide the real reason they’re opposed to the health care law. It's a typical Republican tactic, ride a wave of discontent while deceiving Americans. They did that last year by characterizing the savings achieved by Medicare as cuts.

The mandate seems to be the provision that those opposed to the law focused on because it's unpopular. So what are they afraid of? Everything about the exchanges promotes competition and transparency, both anathema to insurance companies. Yesterday, a post (http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002492196) spotlighted a theory by Wendell Potter:

“They don’t want the bill - quite honestly - to be overturned or repealed. They want the bill to go forward with the individual mandate intact. But what they want to do is to get people to vote out the Democrats who voted for the bill so that they’ll have more friends in Congress to strip out the consumer protections.”

It makes sense. After all, the insurance companies love the mandate, right? It’s a Republican idea, right? OK, I agree. They love the mandate. What they don’t like are the provisions that come with the mandate in the health care law. Think about it, if Republicans can strip out the consumer protections, including the ban on dropping people with pre-existing conditions, the mandate will simply be to purchase coverage in a pre-health care law status-quo system. Also consider this: While Republicans are railing against the mandate, Paul Ryan’s plan to kill Medicare includes a mandate. They don't talk much about it anymore, but Ryan admitted as much last year.

Paul Ryan Agrees That His Budget Includes An Individual Mandate

By Igor Volsky

Simon Lazarus thinks that Rep. Paul Ryan’s (R-WI) proposal to require future retirees to purchase coverage from an exchange of private insurers is reminiscent of the dreaded individual mandate in the Affordable Care Act. “[T]he Republicans’ proposal to replace Medicare with partially subsidized private insurance also operates to ‘compel’ people to pay for private health insurance policies. Moreover, this mandate is not even a pay-or-play option; Medicare taxes are mandatory, whether workers want to buy eligibility for old-age vouchers or not.” As Ezra Klein explained it, “If you decide not to use the voucher, or the voucher is insufficient, all the taxes you paid into the system are forfeit. Either you buy insurance as a senior, or you face a tremendous lifetime tax penalty.”

-more

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2011/05/05/172066/paul-ryan-individual-mandate/

In fact, Republicans tried to sell Ryan's plan as “Obamacare for seniors,” which is completely bogus because the health care law strengthens Medicare and expands Medicaid.

Gohmert: Obamacare Is Like Paul Ryan’s Medicare Plan, But It Would Still Lead To Govt Takeover
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2011/04/25/172048/gohmert-medicare-ryan-aca/

Why RyanCare Is Not Like ObamaCare

By Igor Volsky

Since the GOP has endorsed Rep. Paul Ryan’s (R-WI) plan to completely privatize Medicare by 2022, some Republicans have abandoned their claim that the Affordable Care Act would lead to single payer government health care and begun arguing that Ryan’s reforms are very similar to the exchange structure in the ACA. “It’s exactly like Obamacare,” said NRSC chairman Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) in the Capitol several weeks ago. “It is. It’s exactly like it. Which strikes me as bizarre that you’re seeing so much pushback [from Democrats].” TPM’s Brian Beutler points out that House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) is now making the same argument:

According to Speaker John Boehner, the House Republican budget, which passed on April 15, “transforms Medicare into a plan that’s very similar to the President’s own healthcare bill.

That’s from an interview with ABC’s Jon Karl. Boehner joins Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) as one of the few high-profile elected Republicans who will admit that the GOP’s Medicare privatization plan is similar in many key respects to the health care law they have spent the last two years demonizing.

- more -

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2011/04/27/172052/ryancare-obamacare/



Yesterday, Republicans voted for the Ryan plan, again.

House Republicans vote to end Medicare as we know it, again

by Joan McCarter

The House Republicans made their ultimate dystopian statement today, in passing Rep. Paul Ryan's budget in a 228-191 vote. Ten Republicans voted against it, no Democrats voted for it and 13 members did not vote.

House Speaker John Boehner called this plan "a real vision of what we were to do if we get more control here in this town. It's still a Democrat-run town."

Just a few reminders about the Ryan budget, and what the House Republicans put down as their political marker for 2012, their vision for a Republican-ruled America: It would give the wealthy a humongous tax break, the lowest tax rate since the Hoover administration; it would gut nutritional assistance, cutting it by 17 percent over the next decade; it would cut Medicare benefits and begin the process of killing the program; it would kill millions of jobs; it turns Medicaid into a block grant and deeply cuts federal spending for it, and for SCHIP, the children's health program; and it breaks the already agreed upon Budget Control Act of 2011, threatening, once again, a government shutdown.

This is also the budget endorsed by Mitt Romney. Today the Republicans made their most definitive statement for the America they envision. This is their platform for 2012, from the top down.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/29/1078938/-House-Republicans-vote-to-end-Medicare-as-we-know-it-nbsp-again-


Republicans took ownership of Ryan's plan, which kills Medicare by turning it into a voucher system and mandates that seniors buy private insurance.

Boehner: Paul Ryan’s agenda is the GOP agenda
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/boehner-paul-ryans-agenda-is-the-gop-agenda/2012/03/29/gIQAZcDNjS_blog.html

Romney On Passage Of Ryan Budget: 'We Are Making Progress'
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/romney-on-passage-of-ryan-budget-we-are

If Potter’s theory that Republicans want the mandate to survive so that they can gut the law is accurate, it appears that what the health care law foes are really afraid of is the increased competition and transparency, the aspects that will better inform Americans in making their health care choices and promote more choice. The following analysis supports the theory that focus on the mandate has served as a distraction from other key provisions that improve care, choice and quality.

Health Insurance Transparency under the Affordable Care Act

In February, a final rule was issued implementing the Affordable Care Act (ACA) requirement that all health plans provide a uniform summary of coverage for all enrollees and applicants. The idea of providing easy-to-understand summaries of coverage is, in fact, the most popular provision in the ACA, according to a recent Kaiser tracking poll.

<...>

With so much attention devoted to the ACA’s controversial requirement that individuals be insured and debates at the state level of whether to set up health insurance exchanges, the variety of provisions that would promote health insurance transparency have perhaps been somewhat lost in the shuffle. Implementation of some of these provisions is underway, while others await action.

Uniform Summary of Coverage (Section 2715, Public Health Service Act) – Starting this fall as they are offered or renewed, health plans and health insurance policies will have to provide enrollees and applicants with a uniform summary of benefits and coverage (SBC). All individual health insurance policies and group health plans must provide this summary. It will give consumers consistent information about what health plans cover and what limits, exclusions, and cost-sharing apply. It must be written in plain language and contain no fine print. At the outset, the final rule requires two illustrations of typical patient out-of-pocket costs for common medical events (routine maternity care and management of diabetes). Other care scenarios illustrating how coverage works for a broader set of benefits (such as expensive outpatient medical therapies, surgery, and mental health care) will be required at some time in the future.

<...>


Transparency in Coverage Disclosures (Section 2715A Public Health Service Act, Section 1311(e) of ACA) – Non-grandfathered health plans, whether offered through exchanges or outside, must also disclose other information that would help consumers understand how reliably the plan reimburses claims for covered services, whether the provider network is adequate to assure access to covered services, and other practical information. The law requires plans to disclose information, and for exchanges and the federal Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to then make publicly-available accurate and timely disclosure of the following information:

<...>

Quality reporting for private health insurance (Section 2717, Public Health Service Act) – The ACA also requires the Secretary of HHS to develop reporting requirements for group and individual health plans with respect to covered benefits and provider reimbursement structures that improve health outcomes, prevent hospital readmissions, improve patient safety and reduce medical errors, and implement wellness and health promotion activities. This provision takes effect two years after the date of enactment, though federal guidance indicates that a phased-in approach to implementation of these requirements may be adopted.

<...>

Healthcare.gov (Section 1103, Affordable Care Act) – Under the ACA, the Secretary of HHS must establish a website to help individuals, families, and small businesses in every state identify affordable health insurance coverage options. This website, www.Healthcare.gov, was first launched in July 2010. It provides information about major medical health insurance policies offered by private insurers in the individual and small group markets. It also provides coverage, cost and eligibility information about the new Pre-Existing Condition Insurance Program (PCIP) and state high-risk pools, Medicaid, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP).

- more -

http://healthreform.kff.org/notes-on-health-insurance-and-reform/2012/march/health-insurance-transparency-under-the-affordable-care-act.aspx



There are other provisions that will promote choice and competition.

Ensuring Free Choice
Effective January 1, 2014

Workers meeting certain requirements who cannot afford the coverage provided by their employer may take whatever funds their employer might have contributed to their insurance and use these resources to help purchase a more affordable plan in the new Affordable Insurance Exchanges. These new competitive marketplaces will allow individuals and small businesses to buy qualified health benefit plans.

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/timeline/index.html


Consumer Operated and Oriented Plans (CO-OPs)

The Affordable Care Act creates a new type of non-profit health insurer, called a Consumer Operated and Oriented Plan (CO-OP). These insurers are run by their customers. CO-OPs are meant to offer consumer-friendly, affordable health insurance options to individuals and small businesses.

The federal government is offering loans to non-profit organizations to help establish CO-OPs.

What This Means for You

By January 1, 2014, you may have the opportunity to buy health insurance coverage from a CO-OP for yourself or your family. If you’re a small business owner, you may be able to buy health coverage for your employees from a CO-OP.

In a CO-OP, your health insurance needs and concerns are a top priority because you and your fellow CO-OP customer/members elect the board of directors. A majority of these directors must themselves be CO-OP customers. CO-OPs must use profits to lower premiums, improve benefits, or improve the quality of members’ health care.

As an individual or small business owner, you may be able to join others in creating a CO-OP and apply for a federal loan to help get it started.

Some Important Details

  • By January 1, 2014, you may be able to buy a CO-OP health plan through a new competitive health care marketplace in your state, called an Affordable Insurance Exchange. You may also be able to buy a CO-OP health plan outside of an Exchange.

  • CO-OPs are required to meet the same state and federal quality and financial standards as other health insurance plans.

  • The health care law encourages CO-OP plans to offer better coordination of consumers’ medical care.
For More Information

  • Read the regulation at Regulations.gov.

  • Find detailed technical and regulatory information on CO-OPs.

  • Read the Report of the Federal Advisory Board on the Consumer Operated and Oriented Plan Program (PDF – 1.8 MB).

  • Read the Funding Opportunity Announcement that explains the loan program.

  • Fact Sheet: CO-OP Health Plans: More Competition, New Choices for Consumers and Small Business

  • Use our interactive FAQ tool to find answers to insurance coverage-related questions or ask your own at answers.healthcare.gov.
http://www.healthcare.gov/law/features/choices/co-op/


New Federal Loan Program Helps Nonprofits Create Customer-Driven Health Insurers
http://cciio.cms.gov/resources/factsheets/coop_final_rule.html

ESTABLISHING HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGES: A National Overview of State Efforts
http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/8213-FS.pdf

Bottom line, if the mandate is unconstitutional so is Ryan's Plan. Bonus: Mitt Romney ran away from his support of the mandate in RomneyCare only to endorse a mandate in RyanCare.




Edited title to better reflect the content.

43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Could Republican opposition to the mandate be a cover for dismantling the health care law? (Original Post) ProSense Mar 2012 OP
Kick, with an ProSense Mar 2012 #1
Single Payer,Universal Health Care would be a hell of a lot simpler and cheaper. RC Mar 2012 #2
Yeah, ProSense Mar 2012 #4
Means only one thing Dokkie Mar 2012 #40
No, what would be a hell of a lot simpler and cheaper is a NHS/VA-style nationwide system jmowreader Mar 2012 #42
You will find both types on both sides of this issue. Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #3
That's not ProSense Mar 2012 #5
P.S. To my previous post Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #8
Where on ProSense Mar 2012 #9
Then we must argue that Obama's mandate is unConstitutional or we Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #10
Furthermore if Ryan's plan ever made it through and our liberal justices on the SC Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #13
You're debating ProSense Mar 2012 #15
To the contrary the title of your OP speaks of "opposition" to the mandate as being "cover" Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #18
Good grief ProSense Mar 2012 #19
You seem ProSense Mar 2012 #14
So do you believe the mandate is Constitutional or unconstitutional? Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #16
I believe ProSense Mar 2012 #17
There is no doubt that Republicans are hypocrites but Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #20
No ProSense Mar 2012 #21
Your position of mandates being Constitutional if adopted by the liberal justices on the SC. Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #22
Nonsense ProSense Mar 2012 #25
No it also gives one reason as to why the mandate sucks, I like Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #26
What ProSense Mar 2012 #27
Taxation to government entities and mandates to purchase from private for profit institutions are Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #28
When ProSense Mar 2012 #29
1. Auto insurance is a state requirement not the purview of the federal government. Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #30
It's ProSense Mar 2012 #31
By the states and Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #33
Why ProSense Mar 2012 #34
The Tenth Amendment allows states their powers Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #35
Ah ProSense Mar 2012 #36
You're incorrect I'm arguing that mandates to for profits versus taxation are carcinogenic period. Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #37
You know, ProSense Mar 2012 #38
Where in your OP does it state the bolded part of the quote by Wendell Potter? Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #39
Try ProSense Mar 2012 #41
Actually I was referring to the link on your post #36 which was your OP on another thread, Uncle Joe Mar 2012 #43
I predict CAPHAVOC Mar 2012 #6
Actually, ProSense Mar 2012 #7
OK TX CAPHAVOC Mar 2012 #11
K&R BumRushDaShow Mar 2012 #12
Do you think ProSense Mar 2012 #24
Michele Bachmann Thinks People ‘Choose’ To Not Have Health Insurance... ProSense Mar 2012 #23
I was going to say "Well Duh." but you made a very good point of proving WHY it is a no-brainer. slampoet Mar 2012 #32

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
1. Kick, with an
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:43 PM
Mar 2012

appropriate point by Krugman

Privatizing Medicare

So they’re really going to propose it.

More when we have some details. But two key points:

1. Privatizing and voucherizing Medicare does nothing whatsoever to control costs. We’ve seen that from the sorry history of Medicare Advantage. I’m sure that the Republicans will claim savings — but those savings will come entirely from limiting the vouchers to below the rate of rise in health care costs; in effect, they will come from denying medical care to those who can’t afford to top up their premiums.

Oh, and for all those older Americans who voted GOP last year because those nasty Democrats were going to cut Medicare, I have just one word: suckers!

- more -

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/04/privatizing-medicare/





 

RC

(25,592 posts)
2. Single Payer,Universal Health Care would be a hell of a lot simpler and cheaper.
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:46 PM
Mar 2012

Too bad our Representatives on both sides represent the insurance companies first, over us

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
4. Yeah,
Reply to RC (Reply #2)
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:52 PM
Mar 2012

"Single Payer,Universal Health Care would be a hell of a lot simpler and cheaper."

...but some Americans keep buying into the Republican con.

 

Dokkie

(1,688 posts)
40. Means only one thing
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 09:57 PM
Mar 2012

American just arent ready for a true healthcare reform. Not Obama's fault but congress will only act when the people demand for it.

Anyway, its still hard to understand how we can only muster 10 votes for single payer amongst 59 so called democrats at the rate, we will need 350+ democrats to get a 60 vote majority in the senate and yet we all wanna blame republicans

jmowreader

(50,557 posts)
42. No, what would be a hell of a lot simpler and cheaper is a NHS/VA-style nationwide system
Reply to RC (Reply #2)
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 10:04 PM
Mar 2012

The British National Health Service and the American Veterans Health Service are pure socialized medicine systems: the facilities are owned by the government, the personnel are employed by the government and the prescription medicines they dispense are purchased by the government.

Because of the lack of profit margin, lower overhead and ABSOLUTELY NO INDIGENT CARE* they are a hell of a lot more efficient than the privatized system in the US. IIRC the VA runs at 97 percent efficiency: for every 100 tax dollars the VA receives, 97 of them are spent on patient care. (Remember, the insurance companies are all up in arms over the PPACA's requirement that only 80 percent of the money they take in be spent on patient care.)

Fuck "Medicare for All." I'm for "VA for All." It wouldn't cost any more and it would work better.

* "Indigent care" is what the healthcare industry calls someone who presents at an emergency room with a medical need and no money. VA doesn't have these cases because the customers of the VA system already paid their bill...and some of them paid with a large piece of their body left on a battlefield half a world away.

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
3. You will find both types on both sides of this issue.
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:51 PM
Mar 2012

Legitimate opposition, illegitimate opposition, sincere support for this law and cynical, self-serving support.

I believe in the short run there are good features about the law, but the mandate is carcinogenic on multiple levels, will ultimately override all the good and not just in regards to health care but social security and other policies as well.

Thanks for the thread ProSense.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
5. That's not
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:56 PM
Mar 2012

"Legitimate opposition, illegitimate opposition, sincere support for this law and cynical, self-serving support."

...not the point. "Legitimate" and "illegitimate" doesn't mean deceptive. People can oppose the mandate in both instance using sound or flawed arguments.

Republicans are opposing the law's mandate while strongly supporting the mandate in Ryan's plan.

This is pure deception.

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
8. P.S. To my previous post
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:03 PM
Mar 2012

You will find opposition in the for profit "health" insurance industry that's just playing br'er rabbit.

Re; Your point "Republicans are opposing the law's mandate while strongly supporting the mandate in Ryan's plan."

When Democrats publicly embrace the mandate as being Constitutional you make it easier for Republicans to do what you're saying they're trying to do.

You can't argue that Obama's mandate is Constitutional but Ryan's isn't.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
9. Where on
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:10 PM
Mar 2012
Re; Your point "Republicans are opposing the law's mandate while strongly supporting the mandate in Ryan's plan."

When Democrats publicly embrace the mandate as being Constitutional you make it easier for Republicans to do what you're saying they're trying to do.

You can't argue that Obama's mandate is Constitutional but Ryan's isn't.

...earth am I making that argument? I stated specifically in the OP that if the mandate is declared unconstitutional, then so is Ryan's plan.

The entire OP is making the case that while Republicans are opposing the mandate as unconstitutional, they're embracing it via Ryan's plan. It highlights the reason for the hypocrisy.

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
10. Then we must argue that Obama's mandate is unConstitutional or we
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:15 PM
Mar 2012

would be as hypocritical as the Republicans.

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
13. Furthermore if Ryan's plan ever made it through and our liberal justices on the SC
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:19 PM
Mar 2012

ruled that Obama's mandate was Constitutional, how could they rule against Ryan's?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
15. You're debating
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:23 PM
Mar 2012
Furthermore if Ryan's plan ever made it through and our liberal justices on the SC

ruled that Obama's mandate was Constitutional, how could they rule against Ryan's?

...a point no one made.

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
18. To the contrary the title of your OP speaks of "opposition" to the mandate as being "cover"
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:39 PM
Mar 2012

" Could opposition to the mandate be a cover for opponents of the health care law?"

for opponents of the health care law, my point is opposition of the mandate is also opposition to the opponents of the health care law, in this case against Ryan specifically.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
19. Good grief
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:41 PM
Mar 2012
To the contrary the title of your OP speaks of "opposition" to the mandate as being cover

" Could opposition to the mandate be a cover for opponents of the health care law?"

for opponents of the health care law, my point is opposition of the mandate is also opposition to the opponents of the health care law, in this case against Ryan specifically.

Did you read beyond the title? Here's the first paragraph:

This isn’t intended to say there isn’t valid opposition to the mandate, but that Republican opponents of the law are using disdain for the mandate to hide the real reason they’re opposed to the health care law. It's a typical Republican tactic, ride a wave of discontent while deceiving Americans. They did that last year by characterizing the savings achieved by Medicare as cuts."


ProSense

(116,464 posts)
14. You seem
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:21 PM
Mar 2012
Then we must argue that Obama's mandate is unConstitutional or we

would be as hypocritical as the Republicans.

...to be missing the point. No one among Democrats who believe the mandate is unconstitutional is arguing that it's constitutional in another similar application. No one among Democrats who believe it's constitutional is arguing that it's unconstitutional in another similar application.

Republicans are the only ones doing this.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
17. I believe
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:32 PM
Mar 2012

"So do you believe the mandate is Constitutional or unconstitutional?"

...it's constitutional, but again, the point is not what I believe. It's what Republicans believe, and currently, they're opposing and promoting a mandate simultaneously.

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
20. There is no doubt that Republicans are hypocrites but
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:43 PM
Mar 2012

your position re:mandates makes it easier for them to pass their privatization laws whether it be health care or social security especially when they get back into power.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
21. No
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:51 PM
Mar 2012
There is no doubt that Republicans are hypocrites but

but your position re:mandates makes it easier for them to pass their privatization laws whether it be health care or social security especially when they get back into power.

...my position has nothing to do with what Republicans do. In fact, I fully expect Republican to seize on any mandate to argue their point.

That's like saying that because one supports savings in Medicare, it's easy for Republicans to make the case for cuts.

Well, sometimes it's impossible to go through life without thinking. Republicans expect people to make decisions based on their talking points and not the facts.



Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
22. Your position of mandates being Constitutional if adopted by the liberal justices on the SC.
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 03:02 PM
Mar 2012

has everything to do with what Republicans can do and get away with.

Of course the Republicans will seize on any mandate and no doubt will do their best to pass those laws, but if the SC rules those mandates are Constitutional, that will set precedent giving the hypocritical Republicans great cover.

The talking points about "government being the problem" and all things privatization being good can only be strengthened by such a decision.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
25. Nonsense
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 12:18 PM
Mar 2012
Your position of mandates being Constitutional if adopted by the liberal justices on the SC.

has everything to do with what Republicans can do and get away with.

Of course the Republicans will seize on any mandate and no doubt will do their best to pass those laws, but if the SC rules those mandates are Constitutional, that will set precedent giving the hypocritical Republicans great cover.

The talking points about "government being the problem" and all things privatization being good can only be strengthened by such a decision.


This argument completely ignores the facts and basically amounts to just saying the mandate sucks.

Tell that to Bernie Sanders: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=498885

Facts: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002496395

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
26. No it also gives one reason as to why the mandate sucks, I like
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 12:49 PM
Mar 2012

Bernie Sanders but he should know this.


"Your position of mandates being Constitutional if adopted by the liberal justices on the SC.

has everything to do with what Republicans can do and get away with.

Of course the Republicans will seize on any mandate and no doubt will do their best to pass those laws, but if the SC rules those mandates are Constitutional, that will set precedent giving the hypocritical Republicans great cover.

The talking points about "government being the problem" and all things privatization being good can only be strengthened by such a decision."

Present and Future Republicans will of course attempt to use mandates, you've admitted as much in the case of Ryan, taking a position that mandates to private for profit institutions are Constitutional removes a major barrier for the Republicans making it easier for them to get away with it, particularly when they control critical institutions of the government because precedent will be set.


P.S. As an aside, how do you shade your paragraphs, I have tried that blockquote but it didn't work?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
27. What
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 12:56 PM
Mar 2012

"Of course the Republicans will seize on any mandate and no doubt will do their best to pass those laws, but if the SC rules those mandates are Constitutional, that will set precedent giving the hypocritical Republicans great cover."

...exactly is your point? I mean Republican will "seize" on anything. If the madate is declared unconstitutional, they will likely claim that Medicaid, which they are already trying to do, is also unconstitutional.

Mandates are in place for other forms of insurance and a mandate is in place in Massachusetts for health care so it's not like this is anything new. The only thing new is the Republican spin on the issue.

You talk of "precedent." It would take a rejection of precedent to rule the mandate unconstitutional.

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
28. Taxation to government entities and mandates to purchase from private for profit institutions are
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 01:02 PM
Mar 2012

two vastly different animals.

In the case of the former non-profit Medicare and Medicaid or Universal Single Payer coverage, profit would be non-existent and the primary directive would be actually covering health care. It would also be run by the government and the people's taxes would not be used against their best interests, without immediate oversight the same can't be said for the latter.

An enriched, federally institutionalized for profit "health" insurance industry benefiting from the mandate would use the profits from their captured customers' premium money to lobby or bribe future Congresses to erode the good parts of the law, that may be beneficial to the people but costly to the company in an effort to obtain more profit, the natural instinct of any for profit institution.

"Health insurance corporations; might also use that premium money to lobby or bribe future Congresses to allow them to merge into even greater monopolies which in turn would damage the peoples' ability to buy insurance at competitive prices and thus continue to drive up the cost of health care.

It's a Constitutional question of whether the peoples' tax money should be used to "promote the general welfare" or should the people be mandated in to a partial form of servitude to a profit driven industry diametrically opposed to the stated ideals listed in the Preamble of the Constitution.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
29. When
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 01:04 PM
Mar 2012

"Taxation to government entities and mandates to for private for profit institutions are two vastly different animals"

...did auto insurers become not-for-profit entities? Again, a mandate for health insurance is currently in place, and has been for years, in Massachusetts.




Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
30. 1. Auto insurance is a state requirement not the purview of the federal government.
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 01:38 PM
Mar 2012

2. Only drivers of automobiles are required to have it.

Yes a mandate has been in place in Massachusetts for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_reform


"In Massachusetts, a fund of approximately $700 million, known as the Uncompensated Care Pool (or "free care pool&quot , was used to partially reimburse hospitals and health centers for these expenses and the expenses of non-residents.[12] The fund was created through an annual assessment on insurance providers and hospitals, plus state and federal contributions. It was predicted that implementation of the Massachusetts health reform law would result in a decrease in expenses incurred in providing services to the uninsured, as the number of covered Massachusetts residents increased. In 2006, an MIT economics professor Jonathan Gruber predicted that the amount of money in the "free care pool" would be sufficient to pay for reform legislation without requiring additional funding or taxes.[13] In fact, the increased cost of subsidized insurance offset the reduction in "free care", while insurance premiums increased faster than the national average and became the highest in the country.[14]"

Does Massachusetts Health Care Law set precedent?





ProSense

(116,464 posts)
31. It's
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 01:55 PM
Mar 2012

"Auto insurance is a state requirement not the purview of the federal government."

...still a mandate for Americans to purchase private insurance.

...In fact, the increased cost of subsidized insurance offset the reduction in "free care", while insurance premiums increased faster than the national average and became the highest in the country."

Does Massachusetts Health Care Law set precedent?


It includes a mandate. The paragraph you highlighted has nothing to do with a mandate. In fact, the health care law will help MA's situation. It's widely known that one of the issues with the MA law is that it lacked price controls.

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
33. By the states and
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 02:21 PM
Mar 2012
only if you wish to drive not for just living.

Furthermore you never answered my question.

Does Massachusetts Health Care Law set precedent?


ProSense

(116,464 posts)
34. Why
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 02:36 PM
Mar 2012

"By the states and only if you wish to drive not for just living."

...are states exempt from the Constitution? If there was ever a clear example of a mandate that unleashed private predators onto Americans, it's the one to purchase auto insurance. I mean, I remember a few years back when they reeked havoc on drivers, dropping them for no reason and pushing them into policies in the range of $3,000 to $5,000. Young people trying to get to work were struggling for weeks and months trying to resolve these issues. Some had to give up on owning a car. Can you imagine earning $20,000 and having a monthly car payment of $250 and auto insurance payment of $300 to $400?

Not to mention that everyone's tax dollars contribute to public works.

Furthermore you never answered my question.

Does Massachusetts Health Care Law set precedent?

Yes, I did several comments ago when I mentioned that the mandate was constitutional and that MA has had one for several years.

If one looks to the MA, yes there is a precedent for the health care law mandate.

Oh, and to be clear, the health care law put in place a number of regulations to curb industry abuses, as the OP shows.





Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
35. The Tenth Amendment allows states their powers
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 03:06 PM
Mar 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

"Not to mention that everyone's tax dollars contribute to public works.'

"Tax dollars" is the key phrase not mandates to the individuals to contribute to public works.

"If one looks to the MA, yes there is a precedent for the health care law mandate.

Not by the U.S. Supreme Court, only to the state of Massachusetts.

"Oh, and to be clear, the health care law put in place a number of regulations to curb industry abuses, as the OP shows."

At the risk of repeating myself, in the long run that won't matter because the mandate is carcinogenic and will only work to undermine the good that is in the law.

The for profit "health" insurance industry will only become more powerful and wealthy as a result allowing them to strengthen their grip on future Congresses and work to continuously undermine the best interests of the people and the people will end up paying for the bribing and lobbying used against themselves on behalf of the for profit "health" insurance industry via the mandate.

You posted on Poll Blind's Frontline thread how difficult getting Democratic Senators and Congress people to buck the PTBs was, this mandate will increase that behavior exponentially in regards to good health care reform.



ProSense

(116,464 posts)
36. Ah
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 03:31 PM
Mar 2012
The Tenth Amendment allows states their powers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

...so states aren't obligated to follow the Constitution, and the madate is only "carcinogenic" because it's being done by the federal government?

You're now arguing that it's okay for states to mandate the purchase of private insurance.

"Not to mention that everyone's tax dollars contribute to public works.'

"Tax dollars" is the key phrase not mandates to the individuals to contribute to public works.

That point was not about mandates vs. taxes.

If one looks to the MA, yes there is a precedent for the health care law mandate.

Not by the U.S. Supreme Court, only to the state of Massachusetts.


Again, you're arguing that it's okay for states to mandate the purchase of private insurance. Are you saying that if all states agree to MA's model without federal involvement, you'd have no argument?

The for profit "health" insurance industry will only become more powerful and wealthy as a result allowing them to strengthen their grip on future Congresses and work to continuously undermine the best interests of the people and the people will end up paying for the bribing and lobbying used against themselves on behalf of the for profit "health" insurance industry via the mandate.

There are those who completely disagree with you: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002390746

Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
37. You're incorrect I'm arguing that mandates to for profits versus taxation are carcinogenic period.
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 04:16 PM
Mar 2012

States do govern within their borders as the Ten Amendment applies.

I'm also stating there is a difference between national and state precedent which surely you must acknowledge?

If I had my way states would use taxation to issue statewide non-profit auto insurance as well.

Your OP left out a most critical point of what Wendell Potter actually said.

http://www.laborradio.org/Channels/Story.aspx?ID=1677798

[Wendell Potter]: “They don’t want the bill - quite honestly - to be overturned or repealed. They want the bill to go forward with the individual mandate intact. But what they want to do is to get people to vote out the Democrats who voted for the bill so that they’ll have more friends in Congress to strip out the consumer protections.”

TheKentuckian made a critical point on your thread which you ignored, that being, the mandate throws that dysfunctional, inefficient, and immoral industry a lifeline.

And again Poll Blind's Frontline thread illustrates exactly why Potter believes the for profit "health" insurance industry wants to keep the law from being overturned and how the process was poisoned from the beginning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002490841

"If you only have one minute to spare, watch from 2:15 to 3:15 of this excerpt:"













ProSense

(116,464 posts)
38. You know,
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 06:53 PM
Mar 2012
Your OP left out a most critical point of what Wendell Potter actually said.

http://www.laborradio.org/Channels/Story.aspx?ID=1677798

: “They don’t want the bill - quite honestly - to be overturned or repealed. They want the bill to go forward with the individual mandate intact. But what they want to do is to get people to vote out the Democrats who voted for the bill so that they’ll have more friends in Congress to strip out the consumer protections.”

...it's almost as if you didn't read the OP. Not only is this point included, it's the premise of the entire OP.

Back to this point: "I'm also stating there is a difference between national and state precedent which surely you must acknowledge? "

Do you know that the exchanges are being set up and run by the states?

When you get a chance, see the clip here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002485739


And again Poll Blind's Frontline thread illustrates exactly why Potter believes the for profit "health" insurance industry wants to keep the law from being overturned and how the process was poisoned from the beginning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002490841

"If you only have one minute to spare, watch from 2:15 to 3:15 of this excerpt:"


I responded in that thread. Everyone should watch the video.

For current comments by Wendell Potter on the health care law:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002390746

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=477782


Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
39. Where in your OP does it state the bolded part of the quote by Wendell Potter?
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 09:48 PM
Mar 2012

": “They don’t want the bill - quite honestly - to be overturned or repealed. They want the bill to go forward with the individual mandate intact. But what they want to do is to get people to vote out the Democrats who voted for the bill so that they’ll have more friends in Congress to strip out the consumer protections.”

I've reposted your entire OP below, I've read it three times and I don't see mention of it.

The premise of your OP from Potter's opinion is that the for profit "health" insurance is almost dead regardless, but that doesn't represent the full picture of Potter's opinion.

The combination of passing the mandate and inevitable swings of political power, not only gives that industry new life but puts them in the driver's seat re: health care reform.


"Wendell Potter Agrees: Big-Profit Health Insurance Almost Dead

by james321

It is heartening to read that Wendell Potter agrees with Rick Ungar and other commentators that the death of big-profit health insurance is near at hand:


Aetna CEO Mark Bertolini caused quite a stir when he said at a Las Vegas conference a few days ago that the insurance industry as we know it is, for all practical purposes, a dinosaur on the verge of extinction.

Time to sing, “Ding dong the witch is dead”? Not quite, but the day when most Americans get their coverage from what we think of as an insurance company is close at hand. It won’t be long before most of us get coverage through either a state or federal government-run plan or a local nonprofit company. The big investor-owned corporations like Aetna and the companies I used to work for, Cigna and Humana, know that the days of making a killing off of basic medical insurance policies are over. And the companies have no one to blame but themselves and a fatally flawed, uniquely American system of providing access to care.

<...>

Yup, it does indeed appear that the moral arc of the universe bends towards justice, to borrow King's words -- the immoral practices of denying the sick, declining the sick, dumping the sick and ignoring the sick that were the source of so many riches for the likes of Aetna and Cigna are now coming to bite them...err...kill their golden goose:


Ever since the health insurance industry came to be dominated in recent years by a handful of big for-profit corporations, insurers have actually been driving away customers and shrinking the universe of people they were willing to cover, because of the return on investment and the profit demands of the large institutional investors that own most of the corporations’ shares. It is because of those demands that insurers price their premiums beyond the reach of millions of Americans. It is because of those demands that insurers reject on average a third or more of all applicants because of “preexisting conditions.” And it is because of those demands that insurers have routinely canceled the coverage of thousands of policyholders when they got sick. Now you know why more than 50 million of us are uninsured. It is not because most of those people are being irresponsible. Most of them either can’t afford to buy coverage or can’t buy it at any price.

Wendell also drops a nice nugget of proof that premium rises really are about nothing other than more profits for Wall Street:


As a former managed-care analyst was quoted as saying in Barron’s last October, “There’s no organic growth left in this business except for pricing.”

In other words, the only way that insurers can continue to satisfy their Wall Street masters is by raising prices on poor, vulnerable, sick people.

- more -

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/06/1071589/-Wendell-Potter-Agrees-Big-Profit-Health-Insurance-Almost-Dead

________________________________________________________________________________

Potter knows the for profit "health" insurance industry is still mega-powerful and he also knows this mandate will make them even more so.

The state exchanges will stand little chance against that kind of lobby power by a national conglomerate that is already powerful as Potter acknowledges and with fresh infusions of mandated premiums, not to mention taxpayer money approaching 1/2 a trillion dollars.

If you're going to fight against Hercules, you don't give him steroids just because he's letting you have a drink of water.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
41. Try
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 09:59 PM
Mar 2012

"Where in your OP does it state the bolded part of the quote by Wendell Potter?"

...the first excerpt in the OP.

"I've reposted your entire OP below, I've read it three times and I don't see mention of it. "

Hate to break it to you, but what you posted wasn't the OP, which is the original post of this thread.



Uncle Joe

(58,361 posts)
43. Actually I was referring to the link on your post #36 which was your OP on another thread,
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 10:35 PM
Mar 2012

sorry for the confusion.

"There are those who completely disagree with you:"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002390746

The funny thing about Wendell Potter is that he also acknowledges the for profit "health" insurance industry lobby is extremely powerful and this mandate will make them even more so in this interview in response to Doctor Steffi Wulhimer (hopefully I spelled that correctly) on Democracy Now.

It begins about the 25:15 mark and runs to the 28:32 mark.

mark.http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/28/industry_whistleblower_wendell_potter_however_court

Now I respect Wendell Potter for coming forward re: the "health" insurance industry but I can't help but to feel he has internal conflict between knowing the right thing to do re: that industry and his subconscious or emotional connections to his former co-workers.

Because he has a logical disconnect re: the mandate, on the one hand he says the for profit "health" insurance lobby is "incredibly powerful" and has stymied meaningful health care reform and that universal single payer is the way to go, on the other hand he acknowledges this mandate of at least 1/2 trillion in tax payer money not to mention the mandated premiums will only make them more powerful.

So how does one reach that ideal goal of universal single payer a reality by making the prime antagonist even more powerful?


ProSense

(116,464 posts)
7. Actually,
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:01 PM
Mar 2012

"Medicaid expansion....In"

...Medicaid expansion is in: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002483563

This is the problem with countering Republicans. I get that people want the mandate out, but that's not the point.

The OP isn't about how the SCOTUS will rule, but about Republican deception and hypocrisy. It's a theory worth discussing, IMO, but all the responses thus far are basically: mandate sucks.



 

CAPHAVOC

(1,138 posts)
11. OK TX
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:17 PM
Mar 2012

The hypocrisy is in the 26 states lawsuit. After gleefully taking Federal Goodies for years now they want to claim states rights. And still take all the Federal Goodies.

As far as the Mandate...Out. Congress blew it and wrote a sloppy law. Clearly unconstitutional. But it is conservative in its origins. They should throw out everything but the Medicaid expansion.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
24. Do you think
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 03:44 PM
Mar 2012

that people like to be reminded about the good things in the law, the things that Republicans really oppose?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
23. Michele Bachmann Thinks People ‘Choose’ To Not Have Health Insurance...
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 03:08 PM
Mar 2012
Michele Bachmann Thinks People ‘Choose’ To Not Have Health Insurance, Not Because They Can’t Afford It

By Amanda Peterson Beadle

The Affordable Care Act expands health insurance to the millions of uninsured Americans by making it more affordable and regulating the abusive practices of health insurance companies. But conservatives have attacked it as government overreach, with Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) as one of the loudest critics. After the last day of Supreme Court hearings about the health care reform law, Bachmann told Fox News’ Sean Hannity that people are uninsured not because they can’t afford insurance, but because they simply choose to be uninsured:

BACHMANN: One argument that the government was trying to make is that somehow health care is uniquely different. That government can regulate it because everyone participates. Health insurance is not uniquely different. It’s still an opportunity that some people choose to engage in, but 40 million people do not. And the premise was made that people don’t buy insurance because they can’t afford it. That’s not true. There are people who just decide they want to roll the dice and take their chances that they won’t need insurance.

Watch her comments:

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/03/30/455057/michele-bachmann-thinks-people-choose-to-not-have-health-insurance-not-because-they-cant-afford-it/

A perfect example of Republican hypocrisy: Yesterday, she voted for Ryan's mandated voucher system.




slampoet

(5,032 posts)
32. I was going to say "Well Duh." but you made a very good point of proving WHY it is a no-brainer.
Sat Mar 31, 2012, 02:00 PM
Mar 2012

Thank you for making me grow up ever so slightly.

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