Snowden's revelations: thumbs up or down?

[MannyGoldstein]

I'm not thrilled with everything that Snowden's done, but hell, I'm not thrilled with everything I've done.

All things considered, how are you feeling about Snowden's revelations? Would you prefer that they happened, or not?

42 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Time expired
	On whole, I'm *glad* Snowden revealed what he did
	41 (98%)
	On whole, I'm *sad* Snowden revealed what he did
	1 (2%)
	Other
	0 (0%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[arely staircase]

1. which one's? domestic phone metadata or US spying activities against china? big difference

But no room for acknowledging that in your poll. Not surprising. Your either with him or against him, right?

[MannyGoldstein]

5. This poll isn't about Snowden.

It's about what he revealed.

And the question's about the whole enchilada or not. Feel free to answer or not.

[arely staircase]

6. right. and you don't distinguish between two very different things he revealed

Though I understand why. You have given people a choice of being glad he told the chinese about US spying on them or say they are "sad" he revealed the domestic phone data collection. Mannie's Choice, worst movie ever. Recd for obviousness.

[MannyGoldstein]

7. Again with the personal attacks.

Is that the best you can do?

[MannyGoldstein]

14. Are the results what you expected?

Also, "bullshit ass'd poll" should be "bullshit-assed poll". Remember, it's little things like grammar and spelling that might make people overlook an otherwise-thoughtful post.

[GoneFishin]

33. Really? They are still dragging that "only Meta Data" horse carcass around?

Pathetic and desperate.

[bvar22]

40. The people still posting that disproved BS certainly KNOW it by now,

.....but persist in posting that BOGUS piece of BS.

"But the most brilliant technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success."


Bonus Points for those who can ID the above quote.

[KittyWampus]

36. You play victim very well.

[Dragonfli]

15. not really Manny, I find she can erect one hell of a straw man as well when inspired.

They make for good bon fires and I love me some smores.

[MannyGoldstein]

22. I've always wanted to go to Burning Man

I guess this will have to do for now.

[psiman]

74. Crying "Personal Attack" is not an answer

The question being, to which revelations do you refer "NSA collection of metadata" or "details of intelligence operations against China?"

Both of which are revelations that Snowden has made, so the question is quite relevant to your poll.

And it contains exactly zero personal attacks against you, while casting exactly zero aspersions on the character of Snowden.

Don't try to muddy the water.

[uponit7771]

11. +1, but but... there's no proof (other than Snowdens words) that he gave to China!!!!

[billhicks76]

21. Horrid

The domestic stuff is so horrible it makes the government lack any credibility and borderline illegitimate. Don't take your eye off the ball.

[Luminous Animal]

2. C'mon Manny. We can be totally glad AND hope he rots the rest of his life in jail.

Manning revealed Bush's lying as war crimes and there is but a handful on this board that remembers and continues to champions her sacrifice.

[nationalize the fed]

3. Edward Snowden, Patriot

US Constitution

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

Lots of people died for the Bill of Rights

[NYC_SKP]

8. Whoop, there it is!

Good one!

[msanthrope]

47. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people

to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

There. I've now posted an amendment, and therefore, have won all gun debates, forevermore.

Screw 200 years of Constitutional jurisprudence, US Code, state and local laws......I QUOTED AN AMENDMENT!!!!!!

[snot]

17. +1000

[grasswire]

19. nice! nt

[pacalo]

25. ^^^What NYC_SKP said^^^

[Nobel_Twaddle_III]

4. But we knew or at least strongly suspected most of it any way ? nt

[Mondavi]

9. NSA and courts which permit this spying are the enemies...

not Snowden.

[uponit7771]

10. OTHER - overt traitors suck? tia

[JI7]

13. what does Elizabeth Warren think

[MannyGoldstein]

16. That's a really good question.

I don't know.

[ProSense]

37. Jimmy Carter, Bernie Sanders and more

Reform the NSA and hold Snowden, Putin's tool, accountable for the crimes he has been charged with:

Federal prosecutors have filed a criminal complaint against Edward Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who leaked a trove of documents about top-secret surveillance programs, and the United States has asked Hong Kong to detain him on a provisional arrest warrant, according to U.S. officials.

Snowden was charged with theft, “unauthorized communication of national defense information” and “willful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person,” according to the complaint. The last two charges were brought under the 1917 Espionage Act.

- more -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-charges-snowden-with-espionage/2013/06/21/507497d8-dab1-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html

Many people who oppose NSA overreach, and recognize the value of the debate, but don't approve of Snowden's actions that go beyond sparking a debate about the NSA's domestic activities. In the end, a trial is required to hold him accountable.

Jimmy Carter:

Carter: Snowden's leaks 'good for Americans to know'

Susan Page

NEW YORK -- Former president Jimmy Carter defended the disclosures by fugitive NSA contractor Edward Snowden on Monday, saying revelations that U.S. intelligence agencies were collecting meta-data of Americans' phone calls and e-mails have been "probably constructive in the long run."

<...>

Does he view Snowden, now granted asylum in Russia, as a hero or a traitor?

"There's no doubt that he broke the law and that he would be susceptible, in my opinion, to prosecution if he came back here under the law," he said. "But I think it's good for Americans to know the kinds of things that have been revealed by him and others -- and that is that since 9/11 we've gone too far in intrusion on the privacy that Americans ought to enjoy as a right of citizenship."

Carter cautioned that he didn't have information about whether some of the disclosures "may have hurt our security or individuals that work in security," adding, "If I knew that, then I may feel differently." And he said Snowden shouldn't be immune from prosecution for his actions.

"I think it's inevitable that he should be prosecuted and I think he would be prosecuted" if he returned to the United States, the former president said. "But I don't think he ought to be executed as a traitor or any kind of extreme punishment like that."

- more -

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/03/24/usa-today-capital-download-jimmy-carter-edward-snowden-probably-constructive/6822425/

Bernie Sanders:

<...>

BLITZER: What about Snowden? Do you think that he committed a crime or he was simply a well-intentioned whistle-blower?

SANDERS: Well, I think what you have to look at is -- I think there is no question that he committed a crime, obviously. He violated his oath and he leaked information.

On the other hand, what you have to weigh that against is the fact that he has gone a very long way in educating the people of our country and the people of the world about the power of private agency in terms of their surveillance over people of this country, over foreign leaders, and what they are doing.

So, I think you got to weigh the two. My own belief is that I think, I would hope that the United States government could kind of negotiate some plea bargain with him, some form of clemency. I think it wouldn't be a good idea or fair to him to have to spend his entire remaining life abroad, not being able to come back to his country.

So I would hope that there's a price that he has to pay, but I hope it is not a long prison sentence or exile from his country.

BLITZER: You wouldn't give him clemency, though, and let him off scot-free?

SANDERS: No. BLITZER: All right, Senator, thanks very much for joining us.

<...>

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/06/sitroom.02.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024292659

Senator Blumenthal: prosecute Snowden, overhaul FISA courts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023425884

Rep. John Lewis: "NO PRAISE FOR SNOWDEN-Reports about my interview with The Guardian are misleading"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023427908

“What Mr. Snowden did is treason, was high crimes, and there is nothing in what we say that justifies what he did,” said Richard Clarke, a former White House counter-terrorism advisor and current ABC News contributor. “Whether or not this panel would have been created anyway, I don’t know, but I don’t think anything that I’ve learned justifies the treasonous acts of Mr. Snowden.”

From the beginning, it was clear that Snowden broke the law (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023439290). There was a point where even Snowden supporters accepted that he knew he broke the law. Snowden said it himself.

Fleeing the country and releasing state secrets did not help his case.

His actions since then have only made the situation worse.

Whistleblowers have been making that point, some in subtle ways.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023236549

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023035550

Of course, this is dimissed because they're also critical of the NSA. It's as if some think that you can't be against NSA overreach (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023002358) unless you support Snowden.

What's that line thrown out whenever Greenwald is criticized: Were you against Clarke when he went after Bush? Were you for Scooter Libby when he leaked Plame's identity?

[arely staircase]

56. bernie sanders says he "violated his oath" ?

Man that usually gets the snowdenistas really riled up around here when one of us points it out. Gets you accused of all kinds of shit.

[snot]

18. Manny, the flies are all over you; first to land. But

the poll results speak louder, and more hopefully.

Thanks for all you do.

[dougolat]

20. As the vindication keeps rolling in

it gets harder to naysay.

[11 Bravo]

38. Hell yes! 84 votes (as of 10:22 am) on an internet message board poll ... TOTAL VINDICATION!

[bvar22]

44. Well, the Highest Pulitzer Award possible.... For Public Service...

...awarded to Greenwald for publishing Snowden's revelations did go a long way toward vindication.
That also drove the authoritarians at DU foaming-at-the-Mouth nuts,
so I call that a WIN/WIN for Snowden & Greenwald.

Manny's poll is just the cherry on the Hot Fudge Sundae served up by the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service.

[msanthrope]

48. Greenwald did not win a Pulitzer. And he won't be accepting it for the Guardian. The people

who actually work there will.

[bvar22]

52. That is a weasel out AND a transparent attempt to have it both ways.

1) You continually insist that Snowden released classified information to foreign governments,
even AFTER being informed that Snowden released the classified information to credible MEDIA outlets.
The Editorial Staffs THEN decided what to publish.



2)The Pulitzer was awarded to the Guardian and Washington Post for publishing Greenwald's accounts of the information about the unconstitutional overreach of the NSA provided by Edward Snowden.
Snowden and Greenwald were the Sine qua non of the Pulitzers for the Post and The Guardian.
It is disingenuous in the extreme to attempt to separate them from this prestigious award.

Pulitzer Awarded to The Guardian and Washington Post for Coverage on Snowden's NSA Leaks
http://mashable.com/2014/04/14/pulitzer-greenwald-poitras-snowden/

Nobody here will believe your petulant, disingenuous, desperate denials,
but you may get a handful of the "usuals" to pretend they do.

Congrats to Edward Snowden & Glenn Greenwald for their most essential roles in winning the Pulitzer for Public Service!

[msanthrope]

55. you keep insisting that release to the media absolves Snowdon of criminal liability.

Ok take a look at the charges that are currently against him and show me where that exception occurs.

And neither comrade Eddie nor Mr Greenwald won a Pulitzer.

[bvar22]

57. Please post a cite where I have said that:

"release(ing) to the media absolves Snowdon(sic) of criminal liability"
You are now just Making Stuff Up.

I have never stated anything close to that.

Snowden became a criminal when he chose to go outside the established system,
just as the early American Revolutionaries became criminals when they did the same.

NOW,
please provide your cite for your claims,
or admit you just made that up.

Fabricating False Claims and using that to attack other members of DU is something I take seriously.
YOU should take it seriously.
DU should take it seriously.

You should know better,
claiming to be a lawyer and all.

[sabrina 1]

51. How about some national polls? Looks like the American people support Snowden overwhelmingly

in spite of all the propaganda.

[Number23]

62. Out in the real world, Snowden's support continues to drop and it was never that high to begin with

A 45 percent plurality of respondents said they think Snowden should be prosecuted for the leaks. Likewise, only 35 percent said they would support a hypothetical pardon of Snowden by President Barack Obama, while 43 percent said they would oppose it.

...Both Republicans (40 percent to 27 percent) and Democrats (40 percent to 26 percent) tended to say that Snowden did the wrong thing, while independents were more likely to say he did the right thing (36 percent to 26 percent). Likewise, both Democrats and Republicans were much more likely than independents to say they thought Snowden should be prosecuted. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/edward-snowden-support_n_5071938.html

Bi partisan support for the guy to be put behind bars. First time Dems and Repubs have probably agreed on anything.

From January:

Most Americans – 61 percent - think Snowden should have to stand trial in the United States for his actions. Far fewer – 23 percent - think he should be granted amnesty. Republicans, Democrats, and independents all agree on this as well. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-most-think-edward-snowden-should-stand-trial-in-us/

Anyone that tries to tell you that majorities of Americans support Snowden is lying or can't read.

[pragmatic_dem]

23. Even after BP dumped millions of gallons of oil into Gulf.. apologists

were defending BP and the government secrecy around amount of oil leaking and dispersant use. It was a sickening attempt to protect Obama from any and every reasonable criticism of drilling policy.

Now, the same crew is apologizing for spying.

[NCTraveler]

43. Did you look at the results of Mannys poll? nt.

[pragmatic_dem]

71. what matters more is what people in leadership positions think, how they lobby,

how they compromise their principals and how much time and money they have to monopolize public forums. Money = speech.

[NealK]

24. K&R n/t

[elias49]

26. Thumbs up!

He did us a favor...even the haters reaped benefits.

[840high]

41. ...^ that

[blue14u]

27. I prefer to know what I'm dealing

with.. Then I can start to do something bout it..

Having my eye's wide open helps me work toward solutions,

if their is one.

Thank you MG

[polynomial]

28. Snowden revealed what society has endured for centuries

Snowden revealed what society has endured for centuries. You mean there are secrets in profiteering going in the government that we the people don’t know about ? Of course there are!

Blithely and merrily in disposition my views examine how careful we the people add fresh debate to an old saga in leadership exampled by the ancients:

“Julius Caesar put together an elaborate spy network to keep himself apprised of the various plots against him. In fact, Caesar may have known about the Senate-led conspiracy that culminated in his assassination.”

An article is on

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24749166


With that said many could think history repeats with America’s Senate or Congress conspirators. This history part is a well-known fact played out in time with the right circumstances America leadership using today’s technology is ripe for history to repeat itself.

Ever since reading the book “Secrets of the Kingdom” by Gerald Posner, my intuitive outlook about our government took a turn to the corruption that is likely to exist.

Posner expressed an extraordinary illustration of greed, abuse of power and corruption that make Julius Caesar seem like a mythical being or legend surreal recast before us in unbelievable , fantastic theater via the mainstream media.

America has not made that transition through such a tragedy yet. That’s what is difficult for us today. The political liars that started secret charade likely did think it all was too big to fail, however, all through the previous history the Internet did not exist.

There is no recourse for those on top of this secret charade in government which probably started as an amusement thinking that it was too big to fail now find out the real “We the people” would rather not work for such a government.

Snowden is spectacular proof positive of a new age. My comparison could be a stretch but similar ways like that of Galileo, or Di Vinci brilliant men oppressed because they know the world was different and the governments back then dominated by religion lied it’s citizens.



Of course, toned down for the treachery in secrecy in genocides the Europeans endured by the tyrants through time. America is trying to peel away from this cancer in politics. Begs the question of how can it be reformed when the high-courts say the news media can lie in reporting news. America is pivoting at the precipice with those who think we are too big to fail.

[bemildred]

29. I think we need to look forward. nt

[Otelo]

30. The minority is as vocal as it is unpopular and unpersuasive

Good.

[ProSense]

31. What do the majority of American believe?

Pew:

Older adults are also the most likely to want the U.S. to pursue a criminal case against Snowden. Overall, 56% of Americans want there to be a criminal case against Snowden and 32% do not. While adults 50 and older say the government should prosecute Snowden by a margin of about two-to-one, those under 30 are divided, 42%-42%.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/15/nsa-coverage-wins-pulitzer-but-americans-remain-divided-on-snowden-leaks

No doubt playing Putin's tool will change more minds.

Snowden’s Camp: Staged Putin Q&A Was a Screw-Up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024852509

LOL!

[Otelo]

59. Any party breakdown or ideological breakdown?

Or not.

[el_bryanto]

32. I wish he had done it differently in some respects

And I'm not sure how much of that is Snowden and how much is Greenwald. But it's better to know than not to know.

Bryant

[bvar22]

45. It he had "done it differently",

the PTB could have stomped him into silence and submission.

QED: Chelsea Manning

[el_bryanto]

49. Well yes because there are two ways and two ways only he could have done it. nt

[bvar22]

53. Actually, there ARE only two ways.

1) Stay inside the rigged system.
Report to his "superiors",
and face the consequences of "Not being a team player"

2) Go OUTSIDE the system and have a much better chance of getting this important information to The Public,
but becomes a "criminal" immediately upon making this choice.

I believe he made the right choice.
He is now stranded in Russia,
but that is immensely better than the where Chelsea Manning is.

[MohRokTah]

34. Love the disclosure of the illegal domestic surveillance

DESPISE the disclosure of international intelligence gathering operations and want him to be put on trial for those crimes and I hope he does some hard time for it.

[GoneFishin]

35. I wonder how much the NSA spends to propagandize on the web?

I can't wait for them to leak information regarding the extent to which the NSA hires posters to influence public opinion on the web.

[NuclearDem]

39. Glad he did, and don't particularly care why.

Shouldn't have had to, if whistleblower protections in the intelligence community were worth the paper they're written on, though.

Also still not a fan of him as a person. It's stupid to form cults of personality around anyone, because personalities will let you down.

[NCTraveler]

42. Results are exactly as I would expect on du. nt.

[bvar22]

46. This Poll validates an observation by woo me with science from 2013:

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.

It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur. Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.

woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

[GoneFishin]

50. Spot on. All of the pissing matches convince no one, but do stop us from reaching a point when we

can say "Ok. Now that we agree on the problem, let's look for solutions on how to address the problem!"

I came to the same conclusion. That is what they are all about. Muddling the conversation and undermining our resolve to finding a solution.

[Scuba]

73. Bingo!

[JoePhilly]

54. Slightly more positive than negative.

Pro: Most of the NSA stuff we already knew, but it has sparked a needed discussion.

Con: He's been releasing all kinds of info not connected to Domestic Surveillance.

I also think Greenwald used Snowden as a stooge. Greenwald has benefited directly from leaks of both types above, and Snowden is taking the fall for all of it, probably ending up as both a whistle-blower and a traitor in the process.

[joshcryer]

58. They won't result in reform.

So I'm unimpressed.

[pnwmom]

60. On the whole, I wish he'd done things differently.

I'm glad he released the information about internal spying on US citizens.

OTOH, I think there was no justification for him to hand over information about our spying on foreign countries to the Chinese and others.

And I wish he had thought all this through before he left, so he wouldn't have become a puppet in the hands of Russia.

[bvar22]

63. Your post is misleading, and far from being truthful.

There is no evidence what-so-ever that Snowden "handed over" classified information to ANYONE
other than accredited journalists.
The Editorial Staffs of those publications then decided what they would and would not publish.

Your beef is with the editorial staffs of these publications,
not Edward Snowden.

Edward Joseph Snowden (born June 21, 1983) is an American computer professional, former employee of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and former contractor for the National Security Agency (NSA). He came to international attention when [font size=3]he disclosed thousands of classified documents to several media outlets,[/font] which he had acquired while working for the American consulting firm Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden's release of classified material has been described as the most significant leak in U.S. history by Pentagon Papers leaker Daniel Ellsberg.

In May 2013, Snowden flew from Hawaii to Hong Kong, where [font size=3]he met with journalists Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras and released numerous documents to them[/font]. With his permission, the journalists later revealed his identity to the international media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

There is a small but persistent group of people who are intentionally trying to catapult the dis-information
that Snowden released classified information to foreign governments.
This is completely FALSE.

[pnwmom]

64. There is no effective difference between handing over files to a Chinese newspaper

and handing them to the Chinese government.

Only the incredibly naive could think that.

[bvar22]

65. Sure there is.

One is the TRUTH,

the other is a FALSE statement attempting to make it look like Snowden was in cahoots with foreign governments.

Its easy to distinguish between the two when one has an internal Moral Compass.

You DO know that the China is NOT an "enemy" of the USA.
They are a ally,
and Bill Clinton, reversing a Campaign Promise, granted China Most Favored Nation Trade Status in 1994.

Do you really believe that we should be hacking the computers of of Most Favored Trade Partners and Allies?

You remind me of Rumsfeld.
After the Torture at Abu Ghraib was exposed,
he never saw Torture as the Problem.
He saw the problem as The People finding out about the torture,
and solved it by tightening the security at the torture centers,
and forbidding Camera Phones.
Problem Solved.

If you are so upset about our Most Favored Trade Ally finding out about our spying on them,
then maybe the problem is the SPYING,
and not the transparency?
Yes?

[pnwmom]

67. You do know that China is hacking into our computers every single minute?

We trade with them, but we'd be nuts to trust them. And the CIA and NSA are supposed to be spying on them.

Japan and South Korea are our allies. We are not at war with China, but it is not our ally. It's an ally of North Korea, and it is a country whose power we are trying to contain.

http://news.msn.com/world/obama-seeks-to-ease-asian-allies-doubts-during-visit-to-japan

The difficulty of Obama's balancing act was underscored hours before he arrived on Wednesday night when Chinese state media criticized U.S. policy in the region as "a carefully calculated scheme to cage the rapidly developing Asian giant".

Obama told Japan's Yomiuri newspaper that while Washington welcomed China's peaceful rise, "our engagement with China does not and will not come at the expense of Japan or any other ally."

Leaders who will meet Obama on his Asia trip - which will also include stops in South Korea, Malaysia and the Philippines - are also keeping a wary eye on the crisis in Ukraine through the prism of their own territorial disputes with Beijing.

Some of China's neighbors worry that Obama's apparent inability to rein in Russia, which annexed Crimea last month, could send a message of weakness to China.

[bvar22]

68. My Mother always said,

"If you are ashamed for people to find out what you are doing,
you shouldn't be doing it."

The difference between me and you.

Should we follow the lead of the least common denominator?
Were you one of those who justified OUR torturing because they were doing it?

[pnwmom]

69. This discussion is not about justifying torture.

It's about handing over files to the Chinese.

[bvar22]

70. Once again,

NOBODY "handed over files to the Chinese."
Snowden handed over files to credentialed Journalists.
The Editorial Staffs of those publications decided what to publish.

[nilesobek]

61. Are there NSA agents on this board?

There seems to be a fanatical resistance to truth around here.

Thank you Manny.

[bigwillq]

66. Thumbs Up

< see what I did there!

[L0oniX]

72. Kick & Rec