General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUkraine Is Not Ordering Its Jews to Register
Today, the Western press caught up with the Ukrainian rumor mill: apparently, the People's Republic of Donetsk had ordered all Jews over the age of 16 to pay a fee of $50 U.S. and register with the new "authorities," or face loss of citizenship or expulsion. This was laid out in officious-looking fliers pasted on the local synagogue. One local snapped a photo of the fliers and sent it to a friend in Israel, who then took it to the Israeli press and, voila, an international scandal: American Twitter is abuzz with it, Drudge is hawking it, and, today in Geneva, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry slammed the fliers as "grotesque."
The Donetsk Jewish community dismissed this as "a provocation," which it clearly is. "It's an obvious provocation designed to get this exact response, going all the way up to Kerry," says Fyodr Lukyanov, editor of Russia in Global Affairs. "I have no doubt that there is a sizeable community of anti-Semites on both sides of the barricades, but for one of them to do something this stupidthis is done to compromise the pro-Russian groups in the east."
Why? The Russian government has been playing up the (real but small) role of fascists and neo-Nazis in the victory of the EuroMaidan in Kiev. The Ukrainian government, utterly powerless to fight off the Russians and their local stooges, have had to rely on other methods, like leaking taped phone calls of allegedly local separatists getting their commands from Moscow. This may be just another tactic to smear the so-called anti-Maidan in the east of Ukraine: you think we're fascists? Well, take a look at these guys.
Indeed, the Russian web chatter has sniffed the hand of the Dnipropetrovsk city government. (Dnipropetrovsk is another eastern Ukrainian city, but one that has been spared this chaos, in part because of the firm hand of its new regional governor, Jewish businessman Ihor Kolomoisky. One (Jewish) blogger said he received a similar looking flier from an official in the Dnipropetrovsk city administration.
On the other hand, says Vladimir Fedorin, an independent Russian journalist working in Ukraine, we shouldn't totally dismiss these fliers. "I think the fliers are fake, but the anti-Maidan crowd is a collection of the hardcore 'alternative' variety and criminals, so it's possible some of them are capable of this." To wit, there were also reports of teenagers distributing these fliers.
So, in conclusion: the Jews of Donetsk and eastern Ukraine may have been asked by a leaflet to register, but it has not been enforced nor are any Ukrainian Jews registering themselves. If that changes, I'll be all over it, but so far, you can breathe easy. No Holocaust 2.0 just yet.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117415/ukraine-not-ordering-its-jews-register
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)he went and took a lot of money out and bought each of them a ticket to Israel, one way. They took the offer.
So take that as you will.
I expect more of that by the way.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)who were in the Draft Count left USA for Canada during Vietnam.
I don't understand why you think there's some POGROM coming from Russia. You've not said. Except people you knew were getting on a flight out of there to Israel. Could it be more about how USA Sanctions are affecting their "Business" and not about thuggish Russians suddenly doing some kind of Hitler Thing?
I just can't understand why you are think there is Holocaust II since it's USA who is meddling and threatening in this current situation.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)you'd think he has a reason to fear history repeating itself.
And no, we do not have a holocaust RIGHT NOW.
And that is the precise last you will hear from me on this subject.
Trashing the thread
Raksha
(7,167 posts)Very often it's because you're misreading their posts, thinking they are saying something they are absolutely not saying.
I'm on your side. I totally understand why you're doing it, but I think you're going to have to take my word for that for now.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)simply ignoring people, that is all.
When it comes to this, I will simply not engage when people continue the US is terrible, and gosh darn it the Russians are great, and by the way... yes people are ignoring things like this.
So if you don't mind. I would like to keep the trash out.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Enjoy the ride
Raksha
(7,167 posts)I have always liked and respected Nadin and consider her a friend, but today she's been snapping at me too, because she's been skimming my posts without reading them. At one point she even accused me of not knowing the history of anti-Semitism in the area.
Ummm...really? This is why my maternal grandparents came to America in 1909:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom
Okay, it isn't eastern Ukraine. It's Moldova, called Bessarabia at the time, and just across the river from western Ukraine. Very definitely a part of the Russian Empire.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)on your Ignore List until (maybe you've put me on it now) and I just thought you were getting overheated on this since this is an evolving story...and much of what I've seen from you as that you urged us to Question.
I'm sorry if I'm on your Ignore List Now...but, this story is till unfolding and we know from Iraq Invasion that PEOPLE LIE when it's in their own interest. And trying to FIGURE OUT the LIES and where they come from to MANIPULATE PEOPLE like your relatives and friends is important to do after the Trillions We TAXPAYERS have SPENT ON LIES for DECADES.
Sorry to shout at you...it's just the way I post for emphasis when I worry that folks won't understand what I am trying to say.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)that is all.
I am tired of the US evil, Russians Good... and we are trying to take the world that ignores a lot of local history, like 1500 years of it.
And this is way too close.. as in 50+ relatives that went up in smoke in Treblinka, and registration is not new.
So if you do not mind I will keep the trash out, and no longer read your posts regarding this.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)here....and supported you enough that I wasn't on your "Iggy List."
The feeling is mutual... I will remove you, also.
I wish it didn't come to this. Unless you understand what I said to you...and will give it further thought.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I am not reading those posts anymore.
Look, I have said it before, there is a lot of nuance missing in many of these discussions. There is a LOT of history that is being ignored. But when PNAC is the only hammer you have, well, that is the only tool you have.
And in this case it is not JUST PNAC. It is far more complicated than that, A LOT MORE COMPLICATED.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)I'm trying to say that your friends and relatives in Ukraine are getting OUT because they don't want the Unrest and terrible things they've seen in Libya, Iraq, Syria!
I would get out TOO...! But it's NOT "Holocaust II" just because Victoria Nuland and her buddies (who are doing very well here in the USA) are spreading Propaganda.. It's because of their Self Interests and they are correct (if they are fearful) in getting out ...BUT! BUT! it's NOT because PUTIN wants to be STALIN II.
So...I'm just saying...not to be so fearful but to be aware that your Friends and Family are leaving because of more "personal interests" than fear of Stalin II.
Just Saying. And, let me know when you ignore me. I'd hate to lose your posts about what you do here in USA to Ignore. But, I will also Ignore You when you seem to not understand the GLOBAL/BUSINESS interests in this whole situation. Didn't you get your Masters in History? How could you not be aware of DISINFO going on in our GLOBAL/WALL STREET/EURO (fighting for life) ECONOMY?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Ergo why I will not bother with these posts any longer. You are ignoring the LOCAL history, going all the way back to 500 C.E and also Kievan Russ. And you are ignoring statements from Putin that are actually a declaration of intent to take over Kiev. They are just as serious as those made by Senator John McCain.
I happen to have a degree in history, a Masters in fact, and I did a lot of reading into the history of that precise region since one of my areas of specialty was precisely European history. I had to catch up when this broke up and exploded, but that is another matter. So I understand that things are far more complex than just that. It is part of the equation, but not the ONLY THING at the exclusion of all others. I like nuance with my crisis, not simplistic explanations.
Why out of respect for you, I will not read those posts any longer. I feel I have nothing to contribute. That is nothing beyond cognitive dissonance Forget what I said about my neighbors by the way. It really does not matter either. It really does not matter. In the scheme of global affairs Jews really don't matter. But call it a gut feeling, if they have it their way, there will be a progrom. Some things never get old. And it has to do with the HISTORY OF THE REGION and none to do with PNAC or the Word Bank or IMF... this goes far longer back than either of those two institutions were even in the imagination. Hell, it goes far back than Wall Street or the United States.
This has served as yet another reminder to always have a passport ALWAYS ready and be ready to run at the drop of a hat.
Such is life.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)That you don't see it that way is okay.
But...it's truth.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And now I will recuse myself from these threads
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)were ignoring this thread but I just want you to know you're not alone on this one. This is a chilling situation and the ones who think the Jews should "just chill" are naive and ignore the history of the area. My relatives also hightailed it out of the area because of antisemitism and it's looking like nothing has changed there. Combine that with the history of when things turn bad economically many start blaming the Jews and I don't blame your friend for getting their family out.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)If this wasn't a set up, by whoever and for whatever reason, they'd have reported the issue themselves.
malaise
(269,186 posts)for the truth
This may be just another tactic to smear the so-called anti-Maidan in the east of Ukraine:
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)invasion of Iraq.
Clearly the whole thing is muddled in the Ukraine right now, but TNR seems to want to think the worst of anyone in the Ukraine not pro-Russia...they have an agenda for some reason.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)That was never alleged by anyone.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)If so, it's unpolitical, and not inherently connected to either side of the conflict.
It's almost unfathomable that either side would pull such a stunt, even though some of them may harbor such desires.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)We should all be digging in the Weeds as to what this about...and it isn't the Surface...it's what's underneath for Global Interests.
So...yes...it's about "Who Profits." ....but, the People must CHANGE THIS...because they've GONE TOO FAR! And they need to wake up and heed the PEOPLE...before things get out of hand..which HISTORY shows us is what happens with Economic Situations get Out of Balance. It's time for a WAKE UP before this all gets into some really bad stuff going forward.
SolutionisSolidarity
(606 posts)Now people can say there are accusations of antisemitism on both sides, where the Maiden had been taking heat for its alliance with Right Sector and Svoboda. It's somewhat reminiscent of how the Bush campaign successfully attacked Kerry for personal cowardice despite the fact that Kerry actually went to Vietnam while Bush was safeguarding Texas from an improbable invasion through Mexico.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)first and second Gulf Wars. I think by now people are a whole lot more sceptical of these tactics.
What I always remind me myself of is these people, HERE I mean, were willing to get hundreds of thousands of people or more killed in order to push their agenda in the ME, including our own troops.
Everything we were told about the reasons why, has been proven to be lies. The propaganda was fairly obvious by the second Gulf War to millions of people.
Condy Rice is out there pushing for war again. I remember the Rendon Group, the PR firm hired to 'sell the war'.
But these tactics are pretty obvious, not at all professional. They are getting careless, or the budget isn't as big as it was for Iraq.
I would say that there won't be a war with Russia because that would be crazy and I don't believe either Obama OR Putin are crazy enough to start one. But then I wonder, is it up to them?
And I remember also that Reagan/Bush et al undermined Carter's efforts re the hostages to get what they wanted. So would the neocons/neolibs do the same to Obama? Do stuff like this, re the leaflets? Yes, they would undermine this president in a heartbeat and try to force him to react to stuff like this.
I view them as extremely dangerous, and we know how ruthless they are so I hesitate to say that there won't be a war, and that is beginning to scare a whole lot of people.
Meantime I believe personally those leaflets are a fake. And I believe there will be more 'dirty tricks' like this.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)there are neo nazi sympathizers within the Maiden alliance?
rumdude
(448 posts)and outright racism. Russia is a somewhat closed-in/closed-off country. They are not as diverse as we are and aren't always very accepting of the 'other'. However...there is another Russia -- somewhat killed off in the nightmares of the 20th century -- which still continues on; another Russia that possesses the most fun-loving, adventurous spirit you could ever imagine - open to the world and new things - all mixed in with those deep thoughts of the "dark Russian soul" we used to hear so much about. Now that Russia is amazing.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)the World and Everywhere. That Tribal Antagonism Stuff has been there since Dawn of Civilization.
It's when it gets "Out of Bounds" that the clashes and wars begin. Usually it's about the People's Rights but the Ruler Elites do Disinformation to Pit one Part of their Populace against the Other ....each accusing the other of Genocide, Racism, Brutality...etc.
It's the same old game forever. I thought we had evolved beyond this at this point in time... But...Civilization...no matter how sophisticated it thinks it is the "Wealthy Officials and Privileged ALWAYS manage to Pit the "POPULACE" against each other and then Violent Revolutions Occur.
I don't think any of us want this...but it just keeps happening.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Let me ask you something. Put yourself into the shoes of a Jew living there that has seen these leaflets. We have the American SOS confirming these leaflets and given the history of the area - what would you do? I'm Jewish and I'd get the fuck out NOW. It's not like the gentile world has a sterling reputation for not blaming the Jews when things are unstable. Especially around this time of year.
Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)Putting myself in the shoes of a Jew living there, I'd be pretty shit scared to get one of those leaflets. I'd be getting concerned for the safety of myself and my family, and would probably start investigating what options I've got. I wouldn't give a shit about 'false flag' speculation by anonymous Americans on the internet, mainly because the point being made is that Jews are starting to be singled out, and like you said, that's what happens when there's upheaval and instability. It shouldn't, but unfortunately that's what happens. The Holocaust showed what happens when people sit back and don't take notice when things start getting bad. One thing that stuck with me from a book I read years ago on genocide was when Raphael Lemkin (the man who created the definition of genocide that's now the wording of the Genocide Convention) visited his parents in Poland between the two world wars, and when his family told him stuff that was happening, he urged them to get out. Most of his family died in the Holocaust because they didn't listen to his warnings.
I've only read this thread on the fliers, but I'm getting the strong impression that the motivation for some DUers isn't concern for the Jewish population in Ukraine, but to portray one 'side' as being frothing at the mouth neo-Nazi anti-Semites, while Russia and pro-Russian forces are bastions of tolerance and freedom who are the BFFs of Israel and Jews everywhere. The reality is that anti-Semitism is present at high levels amongst both 'sides', and that flier should be seen as a disturbing turn regardless of who's responsible for it...
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Groups who were part of the Coup who threw out the Ukrainian Elected Government, then? You think that helped the Jews in Ukraine for fellow Jews to be intervening and putting in people in that Coup Government who were Neo-Nazi's?
Why is it that the Project for New American Century was organized mostly by the Kagans who are Jewish. Why would they want to destabilize the whole Middle East and put it into Chaos.
No One is innocent in these WARS we keep getting ourselves into because of POLICY in the Middle East. And many of us: Jews, Atheists, Agnostics and Christians are getting pretty sick of this kind of manipulation and done with our Tax Dollars. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
And what about what's being done to the Palistinian People? They now have a drought and are on limited water resources. When does this hate and retribution end?
Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)I think that all falls under my both camps are bad when it comes to anti-Semitism comment. I'm not prepared to give one a pass because they're my side (not that I actually have any 'side' in this). Unfortunately, that's the impression I'm getting from at least one person who's posted in this thread, who up till now has had zero interest in anti-Semitism and seems far more invested in promoting Russia and pro-Russian forces as being the good guys who would never do anything like that...
When it comes to the PNAC, I'm not really seeing whether someone is Jewish or not has anything to do with what they were all about. They were* a nasty bunch who caused a lot of damage to the world, imo...
As for the Palestinians and what Israel has been doing to them for a long time, I'm not seeing how that fits into what's happening in the Ukraine. Though I did have a snicker at one of the posts upthread that breathlessly informed us that Nutty and Putin are besties and claiming the US shouldn't get pissed off that Israel didn't support it in a UNSC vote. I think it should get pissed off, and next time there's a vote on something like Palestinian statehood, it won't be one of the very few members of the UN to side with Israel. Biting the hand that feeds it tends to make the feeder react in the way I described, and hopefully that's the way the US (the feeder in this case) will react...
* I speak about neo-cons in the past tense, but in reality they've probably scuttled back to their dank and obscure corners of the State Department waiting for the right time to re-emerge on the election of another US leader who's amenable to their cause...
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)It means a lot that you took the time to really think about this and understand that Jews are in a pretty precarious situation there - both in Russia and Ukraine (a country my own grandfather left due to antisemitism - the other 3 grandparents escaped the pogroms in Russia). The very sad fact is that I can easily believe that either side is capable of this. Could it be a false flag? Yes, of course. Would I bet my life and the lives of my family on it? Not a chance. Why? History.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)"Must have in person $50 cash, passport, all available IDs, and documentation of ownership of real estate and transportation."
...
But Pushilin denied any connection to the leaflets, calling the incident a "clear provocation."
Pushilin told CNN the handwriting on the flier wasn't his, and the title attached to his name was not one he uses. And the Jewish community in Donetsk said the act "smells like a provocation."
...
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/17/chilling-anti-semitic-leaflets-handed-out-in-ukraine-u-s-says/
50 DOLLARS? Lol! And on letterhead paper with a bad signature! The U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, told CNNs Jake Tapper that the leaflets were likely distributed by radicals..... Likely? Three masked men in black blackavas sounds pretty radical to me.
And when Anna Nemtsova, a reporter for the Daily Beast went to the administration office where the fliers instructed Jews to go pay the registration fee on Thursday, she found the room was empty.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.585897
The propaganda coming from Kiev is so amateurish. It beggars belief and it beggars belief that Kerry would take this and immediately run with it on the world stage without any fact-checking. What next? Brennan at a UN meeting waving this pamphlet around?
"The ADL today condemned the appearance of anti-Semitic fliers in Donetsk, Ukraine, and called on all parties involved in the political conflicts in Ukraine to refrain from 'cynical and politically manipulative' exploitation of anti-Semitism," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director.
"We are skeptical about the fliers authenticity, but the instructions clearly recall the Nazi era and have the effect of intimidating the local Jewish community," he said.
We have seen a series of cynical and politically manipulative uses and accusations of anti-Semitism in Ukraine over the past year, said Mr. Foxman. The perpetrators and their targets are opposing politicians and political movements, but the true victims are the Jewish communities. We strongly condemn the anti-Semitic content, but also all attempts to use anti-Semitism for political purposes.
...
http://mashable.com/2014/04/17/pamphlets-jews-register-ukraine/
The timing of this is so convenient too.
Israel refuses to get dragged into our "quagmire" (their words), refuses to back down and align themselves with a bunch of neonazis in the Ukrainian putsch government and suddenly appears this mysterious pamphlet after the Tatar card failed and after elite Ukrainian troops refused to shoot at civilians in East Ukraine (they're all getting courtmartialed now).
13.04.14
White House and State Department officials in Washington have built up a great deal of anger over Jerusalem's "neutrality" regarding Russia's invasion of the Crimean Peninsula. Senior figures in the Obama administration have expressed great disappointment with the lack of support from Israel for the American position on the Ukraine crisis and with the fact that the Israeli government puts its relations...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.585333
This despite all the pressure the US has been putting on Israel.
Terse statement, which precedes Lieberman-Kerry meeting in Rome, is careful not to insult Russia or President Vladimir Putin.
05.03.14
After pressure from the United States government, the Israeli government issued its first official statement on the crisis in Ukraine Wednesday night. In its laconic statement, Israel did not comment on the Russian invasion into Crimea but only underscored that it hopes the crisis will be solved peacefully.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.578197#
Less than two year ago the Israeli government was complaining to Kiev about the rise of Svoboda and other neonazi elements. No sense expecting Israel to be too pleased about having bona fide "88" lapel pin wearers occupying important posts in a European government. For our government to now whine about Israel not supporting us in the UN is beyond pitiful.
Israel skipped out on both UN meetings to condemn Russia leaving the US seething. Haaretz' headline summed it up a few days ago "U.S. officials angry: Israel doesnt back stance on Russia"
13 April 2014
US officials expressed anger over Israel's policy of "non-interference" with the Russian annexation of the Crimea; Israel's Haaretz newspaper reported.
A US official told the paper that the White House was disappointed with Israel's absence from the UN General Assembly meeting two weeks ago to vote on condemning Russia's military invasion of the Crimea and call to maintain Ukraine's territorial integrity.
"We have been consulting closely on Ukraine not only with our partners and allies around the world. Obviously we are looking to the entire international community to condemn Russia's actions and to support Ukraine, so we were surprised to see that Israel did not join the large majority of countries that voted to support Ukraine's territorial integrity at the United Nations. Israel's justification that it did not attend the meeting due to the Foreign Ministry strike is unacceptable" said the senior US official.
The US official said that Washington is particularly angry with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman's failure to publically support the US position on the crisis.
According to Haaretz the US is especially disappointed with FM Lieberman who equated Israel's relations with the United States to its relations with Russia. Lieberman is reported to have told Channel 9 that Israel has "good and trusting relations with the Americans and the Russians, and our experience has been very positive with both sides". The official said "I do not understand this point of view, which calls for Israel to be dragged into this quagmire".
...
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/americas/10861-us-angry-with-israels-neutrality-over-ukrainian-crisis
Israel is very wise not to get involved and jeopardize its good relations with Russia, a country that has the world's 6th largest Jewish population.
But Quick quick! Look over here! We have a pamphlet! Forget about what kind of swine we're backing in Kiev. Forget about disastrous photo ops with bona fide Nazis like this
I posted this back in early March but it was inconvenient to the war propaganda effort
Sick shit. Note all the SS Svoboda flags.
This is nasty nasty stuff.
Heck, they've even got a university. David Duke speaks there often and has an honorary degree from it but they don't think anyone should worry about such "a small aspect" (minute 5). This video as part of a 12 part series produced in 2011.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4617954
Victoria Nuland got her photo op with with Oleh Tyahnybok. I think Merkel, Rasmussen, Hollande, Cameron, Kerry, McCain, Hillary, Obama and everyone supporting that putsch should get one too.
US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland together Neo Nazi Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok (left)
Svoboda neo Nazi leader Oleh Tyahnybok giving the Sieg Heil
Here, a closeup of that 88 Heil Hitler lapel pin. I have an even more focused one but can't find it right now.
Svoboda proper has 4 positions in the putsch government. Gives you the warm fuzzies doesn't it? How could this not be a problem for Israel?
Now we have a mysterious pamphlet as if that will make Israel come to its "senses" or something and getting everyone else all hysterical.
Its a fake flyer, says Lesley Weiss, deputy director of the National Conference Supporting Jews (NCSJ), which focuses its efforts on Russia, Ukraine, and the Baltic States.
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/ukraine-jewish-registry-fake/
SHAME ON THE FREAKS WHO THOUGHT THIS UP, shame on the papers who printed their scare stories without any fact checking or doubts and shame on the high level political opportunists who ran with this.
Babies! Babies in incubators!
DU rec
polly7
(20,582 posts)fear of anyone in such a sadistic, sick way.
Thank you for all of this .. I was pretty sure things weren't quite as originally claimed.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)http://www.nationaljournal.com/defense/kerry-condemns-grotesque-fliers-requiring-eastern-ukrainian-jews-to-register-20140417
The cynicism of people bent on war apparently has no limits.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)that people are so willing to believe this is fake. John Kerry doesn't think it's fake and he knows more about the situation than anyone here. I have no idea if it's fake but I would get the fuck out of the country NOW. Could it be fake? Sure, of course it could. Would I wait to find out? Not a chance. You call it cynicism...I call it the reality of history.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)He'll believe anything, apparently.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)it's very easy for me to believe that BOTH sides in this conflict are capable of this? Because history tells me that. That DUers can be so cavalier with the lives of people who have every reason in the world to be VERY and obsessively concerned about it shows an ugly side of how some people will stick to their opinions, even in the face of this kind of ugliness, and just poo poo it. I wonder how cavalier you would be if it concerned your family. Given the history of the region, would you wait to find out which side was responsible? How many Jews have already been killed - just in the last 100 years - because they didn't take these kinds of warning seriously? The answer is literally millions.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Yes, I can understand that better than you seem to imagine.
You:
it's very easy for me to believe that BOTH sides in this conflict are capable of this?
Well that's the point, isn't it?
Can you understand that no one is questioning or dismissing legitimate concerns about the use of anti-Semitism (which this leaflet story is, no matter who is responsible) when they nevertheless see that attribution in this case is a sticky matter?
Can you understand that your producing, of all people, a Secretary of State (any of them) as an automatic authority is highly problematic because of this institution's history as an agency of subterfuge, propaganda and imperialist actions that have also caused untold suffering, and because of the current occupant's own history as the supporter of aggressive wars?
Can you understand that the historic sufferings of many people have been exploited many times by those who engineer new sufferings - on all sides?
Let's not forget, the war of aggression that Kerry voted for was justified in part because Saddam was "Hitler."
This leaflet incident should disturb you. It doesn't mean it should make you blind.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Look at the DUers who have worked themselves into a frenzy. I genuinely wonder if they are relieved or disappointed to find out it is not as reported.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Raksha
(7,167 posts)It's all very revealing, especially that Ha'aretz article. So this was all an attempt at "getting Israel on board," huh? I had no idea Israel WASN'T on board until I read that, but it makes perfect sense. Netanyahu can't afford to get on Putin's bad side, so he declared neutrality.
This is looking more and more like an inept, cynical attempt at psy-ops, and it didn't even achieve its objective. Deliberately stoking the fears of Holocaust survivors and their children is sadistic and reprehensible.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)because this blatant propaganda isn't going to convince the Israeli government but it's sure riling people up in the countries pushing this conflict. Netanyahu and Putin genuinely get along well, I think in no small part because Putin has been the most friendly Russian leader to Russia's Jewish community in modern times. And 21% Of Israeli citizens are Russian Jews.
That leaflet was really bad slime, sadistic as you put it.
Thanks for your excellent posts too Raksha!
Gorin, a Chabad rabbi and chairman of Moscows $50 million Jewish Museum and Tolerance Center, credits Putin personally for providing state funding for the institution, which opened in 2012. Putin also donated a months wages to the museum.
Putin has facilitated the opening of synagogues and Jewish community centers across Russia, at the Jewish communitys request. This has had a profound effect on Jewish life, especially outside Moscow, Gorin said. He instituted annual meetings with Jewish community leaders and attends community events. His friendship with the Jewish community has given it much prestige and set the tone for local leaders.
...
Mikhail Chlenov, secretary general of the Euro-Asian Jewish Congress, says Putins pro-Jewish tendencies are part of the reason that anti-Semitic incidents are relatively rare in Russia. In 2013, the Russian Jewish Congress documented only 10 anti-Jewish attacks and acts of vandalism, compared to dozens in France.
Under Putin, harsh laws have led to a crackdown on ultranationalist groups that once had flourished in Russia.
...
http://www.jta.org/2014/03/11/news-opinion/world/putins-jewish-embrace-is-it-love-or-politics
Edit: I was curious about the museum and found this from the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/09/world/europe/russias-new-museum-offers-friendly-message-to-jews.html
Here's a direct link to the Museum and Tolerance Center: http://www.jewish-museum.ru/en/timeline
alp227
(32,060 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)Ukrainian city's separatist leader, whose alleged signature is on document, says he never signed it; ADL 'skeptical of fliers' authenticity.'
By Haaretz | 00:08 18.04.14
(Premium content)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.586174
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Have to hope clearer heads prevail in the coming days and weeks.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes - Mark Twain
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Simon Shuster / Donetsk @shustry
5:31 PM ET
A few anti-Semitic fliers in eastern Ukraine made global news after the U.S. Secretary of State spoke out against them. But on the evidence on display in Donetsk, the Jews of eastern Ukraine are in little danger
The news of pro-Russian thugs trying to impose a tax on Jews first appeared on Wednesday morning on a small, local news website in eastern Ukraine called Novosti Donbassa. Along with a photo of a neo-Nazi throwing the Hitler salute, the website offered the story of three masked goons hanging around a synagogue in the city of Donetsk and handing out anti-Semitic fliers to local Jews. The site even ran a photo of the flier, which demanded that Jewish residents of Donetsk show up to register, pay a fee of 50 American dollars, and offer proof of any property they own in the region. It all looked like a crude joke.
But even though Novosti Donbassa is not the most reliable source even by the less than exacting standards of Ukrainian media, the story was apparently too scandalous to ignore. It ricocheted around the Internet on Wednesday before winding up in the Israeli press and, finally, on the website of USA Today. By Thursday evening, the article had reached U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who commented on it during high-level talks in Geneva. In the year 2014, after all of the miles traveled and all of the journey of history, this is not just intolerable, its grotesque. It is beyond unacceptable, Kerry told reporters after talks meant to resolve the separatist conflict in eastern Ukraine. By that point, this flier was making news around the world.
But even if it looked like the start of some racist purge, the flier was more likely part of an ill-conceived extortion plot or a propaganda ploy against the separatists. For one thing, the sign-off at the bottom of the flier Yours, the Peoples Governor of Donetsk, Denis Pushilin seemed off. This was a reference to the so-called Donetsk Peoples Republic, which was formed a week and a half ago by a group of armed separatists who seized the headquarters of the regional government. Theirs is perhaps the smallest breakaway republic in the world, as its territory is confined to that one building and a small patch of the plaza around it. Since April 7, they have barricaded themselves inside with a cache of weapons and demanded a referendum on secession from Ukraine. At the bottom of the flier was a reproduction of the stamp these separatists use on the press badges they have issued to journalists.
More: http://time.com/67272/ukraine-jew-register-donetsk/
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Doesn't matter if it's some government claiming it is official.
IT IS HAPPENING.
And it's not isolated.
There are anti-semites on BOTH sides taking advantage and pushing their agenda.
Time and again history has proved that anti-semites in these situations can end up with all the power and then what?
So don't push the "it ain't happening" BULLSHIT.
IT is happening No amount of denial in the world is going to make it go away, either. The entire region is a fucking crucible and people are and will be dying.
And the Jewish people have always been the convenient scapegoats in these situations, regardless of sides taken by non-Jews.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Ukrainian Jews are registering? The acting Ukrainian government is demanding they do so?
That pretty much covers the OP.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Given the history of the area, I'd leave immediately. Blaming the Jews for unrest is an age old game and it never turns out well. It wont turn out well here either.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)That's kind of icky.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)TO: NCSJ Leadership and Interested Parties
FROM: Stephen M. Greenberg, Chairman;
Alexander Smukler, NCSJ President;
Mark B. Levin, NCSJ Executive Director
UKRAINE UPDATE #22
On the evening of April 15, official-looking documents were circulated in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk, calling on Jews to register with the Nationalities Commissioner and pay $50 or lose their citizenship and face deportation. Three individuals wearing ski masks and the flag of the Russian Federation were seen distributing the flyers near the Donetsk synagogue.
The leaflets read:
Dear citizens of Jewish nationality! Due to the fact that leaders of the Jewish Community of Ukraine support the Bandera junta in Kiev and are hostile to the Orthodox Donetsk Republic and its citizens, the main headquarters of the Donetsk Republic declares the following:
Every citizen of Jewish nationality older than 16 years, residing in the territory of a sovereign Donetsk Republic has to go to Donetsk Regional Administrator to see the Nationalities Commissioner, Office 514, for registration. The registration fee is $50.
Persons should have with them with cash in the amount of $50 for registration, a passport to mark their religion, and documents of family members, as well as ownership documents for their properties and vehicles.
In case of failure to register, the perpetrators will lose their citizenship and will be deported outside the republic, with their property confiscated.
(Photo: The Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism)
A leaflet distributed in Donetsk, Ukraine, calls for all Jewish people over 16 years-old to register as Jews.
(Photo: The Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism)
The flyers were signed in the name of Denis Pushilin, the leader of Donetsks pro-Russian separatists, who led the takeover of several government buildings and claimed the city as the Donetsk Republic.
NCSJ has contacted the Donetsk Jewish community leaders, who called the flyers a provocation. They said that all authorities have denied any connection to the flyers, and that Pushilin has denied authorship.
Several members of the community went to the Nationalities Commissioner, who repudiated the flyer, and said that the leaflets were distributed to cause unrest among the Jewish population.
Similar leaflets were distributed targeting international students at the local university.
In addition to the local community, NCSJ has been in regular contact with the State Department and the U.S. Embassy in Kiev on the issue of the flyers.
NCSJ will continue to monitor the situation in Donetsk and throughout Ukraine, and provide you with timely and critical updates.
About NCSJ
NCSJ: Advocates on Behalf of Jews in Russia, Ukraine, the Baltic States & Eurasia, founded in 1971, represents the organized American Jewish community in monitoring and advocating on behalf of the estimated 1.5 million Jews living in the 15 successor states of the former Soviet Union.
Website: http://WWW.NCSJ.ORG
NCSJ
email: [email protected]
phone: 202-898-2500
NCSJ is a beneficiary of The Jewish Federations of North America and the National Federation/Agency Alliance through its network of Federations.
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Ukraine-Update--22---Flyer-calls-for-Donetsk-Jews-to--register-.html?soid=1101481238099&aid=DbfJKyLhTfo
The letter states there was a similar flyer that was "distributed targeting international students at the local university" and earlier today I found evidence of another flyer that was targeting the business community and demanding $70 (US dollars in cash) as a protection fee.
Now I understand better why Time reported Either a Hoax or a Crude Extortion Scheme.
The same site also noted that the language in both documents leans heavily on a play by the Strugatsky brothers, called Jews of the city of Peter, or Sad conversation by candlelight. Arkady and Boris Strugatsky were a famous Russian science-fiction writing pair, and the forum daily.com post surmises that whoever created the two documents must have been very familiar with the works of the two brothers, and is most likely a well-read individual.
The piece dissects some of the plays dialogue, showing how it parallels the language in the leaflets, and offers up this opinion: Its unlikely that such intellectuals are now in the headquarters of the so-called Donetsk republic. The author of these provocative leaflets is a creative person, prone to extraordinary and theatrical gestures, who decided to re-enact the fiction of these literary brothersnot on stage, but in real life.
Unless the hoaxer is bent on garnering some personal publicity, its unlikely that well ever find out who did create the flyers, but whats for sure is that in such a political tinder-box, a joke like this is all thats required to set off a crisis.
https://www.vocativ.com/world/ukraine-world/anti-semitic-ukraine-flyer-literary-hoax/
Also, Pushilin never said it was his people who distributed the flyer. That was either a poor or a deliberate mistranslation in the US press. What he said is that "fliers were distributed under his organization's name in Donetsk but denied any connection to them, Ynet reported in Hebrew."
He also said whoever distributed them were "degenerates":
"Some degenerates distributed them around Kalinin district yesterday ... But even here it barely worked - I never call myself the people's governor ... But Matsuka who distributed these photos on news sites is a well-known Donetsk politician" - Denis Pushilin told our paper "Kiev Jewish".
http://evreiskiy.kiev.ua/v-donecke-razdali-nacistskuju-13077.html
Someone tell me the State Dept doesn't have researchers who could have done similar research into this.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)they know things you don't. Have you ever considered that? You're playing very loose with the lives of people who live in an area with a revolting history of antisemitism. Would you recommend to a family member to stick around and find out it's fake? I sure wouldn't.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Haaretz - Flier calling on Donetsk Jews to register now widely seen as fake
The pro-Russian separatist leader of Donetsk, whose alleged signature is on the now notorious fliers calling on the eastern Ukrainian city's Jews to register on pain of deportation, said the documents were fakes, the ThinkProgress website reported Thursday.
Some idiots yesterday were giving out these fliers in targeted areas, said Denis Pushlin, head of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk, whose forces have taken over Ukrainian government buildings in the city. Pushlin said he didn't sign the documents and the People's Republic, whose name is stamped on the fliers, didn't produce them.
Meanwhile, the Anti-Defamation League said it was "skeptical about the
authenticity" of the fliers, which have been widely reported and accepted as authentic, including by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who denounced them as "grotesque."
Also, Julia Ioffe, who covers Russia for The New Republic, wrote: "The Donetsk Jewish community dismissed as 'a provocation,' which it clearly is. 'It's an obvious provocation designed to get this exact response, going all the way up to Kerry,' says Fyodr Lukyanov, editor of Russia in Global Affairs. 'I have no doubt that there is a sizeable community of anti-Semites on both sides of the barricades, but for one of them to do something this stupid this is done to compromise the pro-Russian groups in the east.'"
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.586174
Catherina
(35,568 posts)There are similar letters not only addressed to Jews, but also to businessmen, foreign students, people of certain other occupations, he told RT. This is actually a fake, and not a good one. Theres a sign Peoples Governor. First of all, no one calls me by that title, no one elected me. Secondly, the stamp is the former mayors. Everythings photoshopped.
Although the letters authenticity is questionable, the fact that it was mentioned by a top US official has quickly sent the Letter to Jews story viral. It struck a very sensitive chord with audiences worldwide and cast a grave shadow over anti-government protesters in Donetsk.
Meanwhile, a Ukrainian MP who has visited the turbulent region, Boris Kolesnikov of the Party of Regions, has urged that information coming from Ukraine should be double-checked.
He believes that Ukrainian law enforcement agencies arent being totally honest when they describe the people participating in the protests and claim there are Russian servicemen among them.
Kolesnikov specifically referred to a video which earlier appeared online. In it a man in a military uniform told police officers, who switched sides in the city of Gorlovka and joined protesters, that he was Russian lieutenant-colonel from Simpheropol, Crimea. The man was later identified by Gorlovka residents as the former director of a local cemetery.
Officially, Ive only seen one Russian serviceman, Kolesnikov said. The next day he appeared to be the ex-director of the Gorlovka cemetery, fired 2 years ago for selling 38 fences, stealing a monument and extorting money from old women for new graves. There are Interior Ministry and intelligence services in the country, which should give us truthful information.
...
http://rt.com/news/fake-news-ukraine-russia-364/
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)City's chief rabbi states pamphlet is fake, claiming it is meant to discredit pro-Russian protesters or Jewish community
Alec Luhn in Donetsk
The Guardian, Friday 18 April 2014 16.18 BST
The barricades outside the Donetsk regional administration building are plastered with anti-fascist posters. Photograph: Scott Olson/Getty Images
...
US secretary of state John Kerry soon waded into the media storm over the piece of paper, describing it as "grotesque" and "beyond unacceptable". But on Friday the chairman of the Donetsk People's Republic and the city's chief rabbi both stated that the flyer was a fake meant to discredit the so-called republic or the Jewish community.
...
"I think it's someone trying to use the Jewish community in Donetsk as an instrument in this conflict. That's why we're upset," the chief rabbi, Pinchas Vishedski, told journalists on Friday.
According to Jewish community members at Donetsk's only synagogue, which was founded 110 years ago, three masked men walked up to worshippers standing on the street after a Passover service on Wednesday and tried to distribute the flyers. They wore no insignia and quickly left when asked to identify themselves.
...
When seen by the Guardian on Friday, several aspects of the document immediately called into question its legitimacy. Pushilin is officially the chairman of the temporary government and has avoided being labelled its governor or leader. Also, the Donetsk People's Republic stamp shown there is poor quality and a different size than normally used, and the order is not signed.
...
"We were alarmed but now things have calmed down," said worshipper Ari Schwartz.
...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/18/antisemitic-donetsk-peoples-republic-ukraine-hoax
karynnj
(59,504 posts)However, here is what Kerry actually said as given in the FULL TEXT of the remarks:
The parties agreed today that all sides must refrain from the use of violence, intimidation, or provocative actions. And we strongly condemned and rejected all expressions of extremism, racism, and religious intolerance, including anti-Semitism.
Let me say a quick word about that. Just in the last couple of days, notices were sent to Jews in one city indicating that they had to identify themselves as Jews. And obviously, the accompanying threat implied is or threatened or suffer the consequences, one way or the other.
In the year 2014, after all of the miles traveled and all of the journey of history, this is not just intolerable; its grotesque. It is beyond unacceptable. And any of the people who engage in these kinds of activities, from whatever party or whatever ideology or whatever place they crawl out of, there is no place for that. And unanimously, every party today joined in this condemnation of that kind of behavior.
In addition, recently, the Ukrainian the Russian Orthodox Church members in Ukraine were threatened that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was somehow going to attack them in the course of the next days. That kind of behavior, that kind of threat, has no place. And all parties agreed that that kind of behavior is not just grotesque and unacceptable, but it will not stand the test of the direction that Ukraine wants to move in.
http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2014/04/224947.htm
Note that Kerry is condemning ALL attacks - Note that speaking of Russian Orthodox Church members being threatened that the Ukrainian church would attack them that he uses the same words "grotesque and unacceptable". In both cases, he does not state who has made the threats - just that they have been made and used to intimidate.
Don't you agree that given that BOTH sides have had a history of bad behavior towards minorities that it should be condemned? Not to mention, one of the demands of the Russians was that the rights of (at least some - ie the Russian speaking) minorities be protected. What Ukraine is agreeing to do is to enact the reforms that protect the minorities. From the reports of Lavrov's comments, he too spoke of ending these behaviors as well.
I am Jewish and my husband's maternal grandmother and grandfather immigrated from near Odessa. Years ago, in Hebrew school, my kids all learned of life in the shtetls and the pograms. That the Ukrainians have a very bad history is not questionable. The same though is true of the Russians.
At this point, especially if these steps laid out in Geneva are actually taken, it is possible - that like Germany - Ukraine may confront their past or at least begin to teach that these actions against any group - whether religious, ethnic or anything else are as Kerry said "grotesque".
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)I hadn't read the earlier stories closely enough to see any reason to doubt that there was actually a governmental registration requirement.