Why I don't like the term "white privilege"

[shaayecanaan]

Some background, as I mainly post in the I/P forum.

I am not white. I am Arab, specifically of Lebanese background. I "look" Arab.

My family fled the Lebanese Civil War, firstly to West Africa, where there is a substantial, tight-knit Lebanese community. My family began working alongside other Lebanese in various import/export businesses. They were already reasonably well-to-do, and became considerably richer during this time. African governments are by and large corrupt and incompetent, so rather than trying to organise their own supplies of whatever they needed they would buy them directly from us. Then of course you have the Western NGOs, who are always looking to buy stuff but don't really care what they pay as they are spending their donors' money. Almost always whatever they bought was at a 10% markup.

My family eventually "graduated" to exporting rough gemstones, which meant we spent some time in and out of central Africa. This was partly because Chinese traders had started to displace the Lebanese shop owners in West Africa, basically because they could source product more cheaply. Through the gem trade, we became, and remain, what people even in Western countries would consider wealthy. This financed our emigration to the UK and eventually Australia. For myself, in a fit of adolescent pique, I refused to work in the old man's business for the old man's money, and so became a lawyer, even though my siblings still work in the family business.

I was educated firstly at a boarding school which was attended mainly by rich Saudi playboys, and later at exclusive schools in the UK and Australia, where there were still plenty of rich Saudi playboys, as well as plenty of Chinese and Indian playboys as well.

Our ethnicity, I think, was a distinct advantage to us in Africa. We weren't Westerners, so we didnt have any colonial baggage. At about this time Lebanon was getting the shit bombed out of it by Israel, and given the sympathy Africans had for Palestinian nationalism this made them inclined to regard us favourably as well (ironically, a lot of our gemstones would be cut and polished in Israel). Coming from a fragile political environment in Lebanon, we also knew how to not run foul of the Africans.

My time in central Africa made me into something of a Marxist. I saw small snippets of the Third World War in and around the Congo, in which 8 million Black people were murdered by other Black people. I remember how shocked I was when my father first pointed out slaves to me. You can always spot them in parts of central Africa by the distinctive bangles they wear on their ankles and wrists. "What can you do?" my father said. "It is their culture". Myself, I saw it as the natural consequence of a global proletariat that had been denied resources and had begun to slaughter and enslave itself in its will to survive.

****************

I dislike the term white privilege for a couple of reasons. The first is that it implies that being non-white is some sort of permanent disability. It encourages fatalistic attitudes on the part of non-white people that they cannot possibly succeed in what they regard as a white man's world. The fact is that the white man is just about busted-arse broke, and the next century is likely to belong to Chinese and Indians who are likely to dwarf the West in terms of growth for the next few decades.

It also gives me a free pass, which I probably don't deserve. I could bask in the comfort of being a persecuted non-white person, but the fact is that besides being screened at airport security just about every god damn time I am very seldom inconvenienced by my ethnicity. Being Arab has definitely been a net gain for me.

But the biggest problem that I have with the term "white privilege" is that it is used as an instrument to destroy class consciousness. The wealthiest group in the United States are not whites. It is in fact Indian-Americans who have a median household income of about 100k per family. The poorest county in the US is Martin County, Kentucky, which is 90%+ white.

Poor African Americans and poor whites in the US are kept poor for the same reasons. They are denied adequate health care, education and employment opportunities. When a well-meaning New Lefter insists that a poor White is "privileged", he or she gets upset for legitimate reasons. A privilege that does not amount to a material benefit is not much of a privilege at all. The most that could be said of being white is that it results in a greater tendency to be privileged, and not that it inherently constitutes a privilege. To the extent that Whites have privilege, it is because they have more money. If Blacks held as much money as Whites there would be no White privilege. It is therefore, essentially a function of class, rather than one which attaches to race irrespective of context.

The 20th century trade union movement, which encouraged working class people to organise and to overlook their racial and religious differences, resulted in the only real gains for those people in living history. It was a successful example of coalition politics. Yes, the union leadership was mostly male and mostly white. But the wage increases they obtained for workers black and white were worth more than the pious exclamations of "white privilege" by the New Left for the past several decades. By any metric, the circumstances of Black people (who remain predominantly working class) have not improved under the New Left. They have gone backwards together with the interests of working class whites.

That they have gone backwards is no accident. The national obsession with race in the media persists because it works to the advantage of the ruling class in America. It is a deliberate divide and conquer policy. It is carried out with the acquiescence of the overwhelmingly middle-class New Left, which regards poor whites with blatant stereotyping and overt hostility (consider, for example, that just about every cartoon character with an Appalachian accent is a simple-minded moron, and the frequent references to trailer-trash living, flyover-state dwelling inbred rednecks in contemporary Left circles).

The term "white privilege" also gives the Black middle class a pass, which frankly they probably don't deserve either. Barack Obama, for example, did not come from the same social class as "traditional" African Americans. He was the son of a senior Kenyan econocrat. In fact many high-achieving Black Africans in US academia are predominantly not traditional African Americans but are instead migrants from the professional classes of Namibia, Kenya and other countries. They are no more inclined to naturally care for working class Blacks than ruling class Whites are to care for the lot of poor Whites. The fact that Barack Obama is no more liberal and in fact quite centrist in comparison to other Democratic presidents is testament to this.

[1StrongBlackMan]

1. I will just say ...

for now, the U.S. of racial politics franchise is ... different.

[shaayecanaan]

2. I'm not sure I follow (nt)

[Warpy]

3. Very diplomatic.

White privilege exists in the US in ways subtle and not so subtle. In any sort of crime scene, whites will be approached by the cops first, even if they weren't witnesses. In stores, white customers are waited on first. We can drive a fancy rental car and not be pulled over for DWB.

This is mostly because people of color are automatically shunted into a lower class than they actually are, while the reverse is done for white people, something that should be offensive to all of us but which many white folks seem oblivious to.

So while the OP might not like the term or even understand it the way it plays out in the US, it doesn't mean white privilege doesn't exist, far from it.

[ZombieHorde]

6. Great post.

I love your use of clear examples.

[shaayecanaan]

10. The police hardly ever do random breath tests in Chinese suburbs...

mainly because Chinese people hardly drink. The cops could go there and pull cars over but they would hardly pick up any people.

In fact, Chinese suburbs hardly attract any attention from the police at all. They are by and large affluent and quiet suburbs, and police are generally not interested in bothering the quiet and affluent.

Does that amount to Chinese privilege?

[JI7]

12. i would say it's more due to numbers of drunk driving related traffic accidents in the area

[shaayecanaan]

18. Bingo...

and shop assistants are more ready to assist white people because...

white people have more money.

[JI7]

22. bad analogy , if a chinese person was in an area they were testing for drunk drivers

they would and should not discrimate who they test based on race.

[Gormy Cuss]

128. no, because they assume white people have more money

Ask the Zurich clerk about "helping" Oprah Winfrey.

[okaawhatever]

19. This would be Chinese priviledge: A police officer witnesses driving that is consistent with

drunk driving. As the officer goes to turn on their blue light they notice the driver is a Chinese individual. If the officer decides not to pull over that vehicle due to the nationality of the driver then yes, it's Chinese privilege.

As a white person in this country, I am statistically more likely to be hired for a job. I am less likely to get arrested in the same situation as a black person. I could go on. That is white privilege.

The way the term white privilege is used in this country, I would say you had Arab or African privilege when you worked in central Africa. You mentioned that since you didn't look western you didn't carry colonial baggage. If the people you did business with treated you more favorably because of a quality you possessed but didn't earn, then you had privilege.

[shaayecanaan]

24. Arab privilege?

Well its a new one at least.

If the people you did business with treated you more favorably because of a quality you possessed but didn't earn, then you had privilege.

If I was seven feet tall and I got to play in the NBA as a consequence, would I have tall privilege?

[JI7]

25. you don't seem to understand the concept and are arguing republican talking points

[shaayecanaan]

91. I don't think that you ever understood the concept...

you think that mouthing platitudes, holding the DLC orthodoxy line and recounting touching anecdotes about racism is the way forward.

It isn't.

The only way forward is to make sure that more money finds its way into the pockets of Black and White working class people (and other working class people).

[JI7]

96. dlc has nothing to do with white privilege, the history of this country goes back hudreds of years

before the dlc .

[okaawhatever]

27. The NBA situation wouldn't necessarily be considered tall privilege because height is a factor in

ability to play the game of basketball. Rebounding shots is a good example. Same with reach in boxing or being short in gymnastics.

When I mentioned Arab privilege it's because you were viewed more favorably than a Western European would have been in the same situation. It had nothing to do with you or your ability, nor the W European's ability, only the perception of the other individual. Due to colonial interference in African matters, someone who is Western European is viewed less favorably than someone of Arab descent. That assumption has nothing to do with either of you two. It's a central African viewpoint based on historical mistreatment by Western Europeans. A Western European in the same business situation as you has an unequal chance of success because of this belief. That is privilege.

[Downwinder]

45. Lone Star Gas wanted employees that were at least six feet tall.

They felt they were a more dominating presence.

[uponit7771]

50. *****BINGO!!!*****

[okaawhatever]

20. Why do you think the Chinese hardly drink? nt

[Warpy]

29. I've known quite a few prodigious Chinese drinkers

What they don't generally do is get into a car and drive, although there have been a couple of exceptions among my patients.

Drinking rates are just a little lower among most Asians because so many have something called the flushing reaction to alcohol, their blood vessels dilate and they turn beet red. Some also get ferocious headaches. No party, just pain. Still, on some social occasions, they will drink and to excess, red faces and all. They generally don't seek it out on a daily basis.

It's more that the culture has a reputation for being impenetrable, something I never found but the cops might.

[CSStrowbridge]

15. One time...

One time a couple of summers ago I had to walk to get groceries. It was hot and sunny, so I wore a baseball cap pulled low over my eyes. But I was also wore a bulky jacket, because I needed separate pockets for my keys, wallet, phone, mp3 player, etc. I also have a full beard. I had two grocery bags that I have the bottom of boxes in, to keep them stable. Before I could get groceries, I had to go to a bank to get some money.

I walked into a bank with my baseball cap pulled low and a full beard, so you couldn't see my face. I was wearing a jacket that was obviously too warm for the weather and I was carrying two empty bags. If I were any ethnicity other than white, security in the bank would have been on full alert. As it was, they didn't even pay attention to me.

[Token Republican]

58. But another time

many years ago in my youth, my friends and I, all of whom are white males, went backpacking for a few days. No shaving, showering or any such luxuries for about four days.

On the way home, we got lost driving. In a parking lot, I saw a police car. I went up to it and asked for directions. I didn't realize my friends were behind me.

Female cop in the car looked at me approaching, had a look of WTF on her face. She gave me directions and I turned around to go back to my car.

That's when I saw the other two cop cars had pulled around behind us and they looked ready to pounce. When we realized what we looked like, I couldn't blame them.

In response to the post above, I bet the bank security had you on their radar but you just didn't know it.

[sufrommich]

60. And then you and your friends showered

and shaved and hit the cultural reset button. Skin color doesn't wash off.

[Token Republican]

69. Yup

Agreed on both you points, and they really touch on one key aspect of racism.

Human beings are by nature, creatures of habit and patterns. We evolved to spot patterns, and seeing something that is outside of what we know is safe helped keep us alive in our caveman days. Eyes glaring at us in the dark of night usually meant bad things were about to happen. A tribe that looks different than our tribe could mean bad things.

Those traits continue today.

Racism is a complex multi headed beast. The most obvious example is overt racism, such as the old south's jim crow laws. This is obvious and in some ways, the easiest to address.

But such overt racism is only part of the beast. There is the feeling of being concerned for your own safety when people of a different race are around. I've felt it myself and while I'm not proud of it, acknowledging that such reactions exist is the only way to fight them. Yet they exist for a reason too. I've had two less than pleasant encounters with a group of young males of certain ethnic background and since then, I've been a bit more wary about repeating that type of encounter. See above regarding patterns. So while people do have the right to exercise free speech by adopting a "gangsta" look, there are consequences of that choice. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but simply saying it exists.

And there's an even more subtle form of racism I've encountered which absolutely shocked me the first time I encountered it. I did a fair amount of work years ago that involved the foster care system. Many kids grew up in foster care, and social workers assigned would supposedly help them obtain life skills to become independent adults. Most of the kids involved were, due to geography, African American. What was appalling was the complete lack of any resources to living by working. Each and every independent living plan that was offered to these kids was simply a list of social services and government aid. Ok, sometimes its necessary but the point is that not being on welfare was completely outside the line of thinking. Not being on welfare was not even an option. When I tried to address this with social workers, I might have been speaking martian.

The last type of racism really made me open my eyes on how subtle and insidious it is, and it can corrupt even those who are trying to make a positive difference.

Personally, I can't say that I'm free of racism. In fact I won't. Because only being aware that such subtle racism exists is the only way it can be fought, both as an individual and in society at large.

[sufrommich]

72. "not being on welfare was completely outside the

line of thinking".This whole post was condescending ,racist claptrap disguised as "concern". As your DU name implies,you don't belong here.

[uppityperson]

74. I think that was their point, that that sort of racism was shocking and not ok.

"more subtle form of racism I've encountered which absolutely shocked me"
" What was appalling was the complete lack of any resources to living by working."

[Token Republican]

78. Yes, thank you

Maybe I wasn't clear.

I wasn't saying that the nearly adult kid in foster care wanted to be on welfare. It was the exact opposite.

I was saying the white social worker assumed the only future for the black foster child was public assistance.

I don't know if the same presumptions would have been made for a white child in foster care who was approaching adulthood, but I have a hunch more opportunities would have been made available.

This struck me back when it happened, and more recently, I've used this experience as a concrete example to help me understand the concept that racism means a lot more than spewing racial epithets.

[Gormy Cuss]

129. The white foster kid would have been handed the same set of options

based on what I know from very white areas where most foster kids ARE white.

[El_Johns]

104. What proportion of the US ruling class originally made their family fortunes directly or indirectly

from slavery?

It's larger than we think. For example, the Bush family has at least 2 ties to my knowledge; one indirect, through Brown Brothers Harriman, the capital of which was built through the cotton trade and related businesses; and one direct, through an ancestral family in the cotton trade and related businesses & tied to the Southern & international business slaveocracy.

This is one of the reasons the phrase "white privilege" bothers me. It completely erases the dimensions of class & power and substitutes "whiteness". While it's true that many, perhaps most, white Americans participate at least indirectly a/o passively in maintaining racism as a social phenomenon, the major benefits of racism, Jim Crow, and slavery accrued, as do most things, to the ruling class, and this historical and current dimension is completely erased by the "white privilege" meme. This seems to me quite deliberate, allowing people who actually owe their present-day status to black degradation to parade as moral paragons.

[Separation]

171. Guess you were lucky.

I walked into a Wells Fargo bank to cash a check I got while on lunch break So I walked in the bank, in uniform and forgot to take my cover off. I managed to get three steps in before two bank tellers were motioning me to take my cover off and the security guard was headed my way. I am white as the day is long.

Either your bank has never been robbed before, or my bank gets robbed by lots of guys in uniform.

[malaise]

31. I always love the part about African governments being corrupt

They could not be were the corporations and local business class not ten times more corrupt.

White privilege is real.

[JustAnotherGen]

36. Don't forget who they learned it from malaise!

Colonialism sucked.

[malaise]

38. And neo-colonialism is worse

[JustAnotherGen]

43. I think you know

From interacting with me here that my husband is from Italy and did far more time in the miltary there than his mandatory year . . . He's quite honest about what his country's "shame" is on the continent of Africa. You won't find a family that is more amenable to African immigrants in Italy. Several family members are the comparative Federally Elected reps in the US. Uncle Nicolo has the distinction of being a Senator for life - its on a wall in his library/den in between picture of he and Bene. That 93 year old man freely admits what his country is and what they did. And now - what they OWE as a result.

I hate when people try to gild Lillies.

[malaise]

49. You know the really sad truth is that there are lots of decent human beings in many of the

countries of the world.

[redqueen]

63. Thank you for this post. nt

[defacto7]

8. Subtle. n/t

[progressoid]

4. I think the poorest county in the US is in South Dakota

Edit: change that to Buffalo County, South Dakota containing the Crow Creek Reservation.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. 4 of the 5 poorest are in SD

Clay County Kentucky is 18th.

[Heidi]

5. The US government considers you white.

1. Categories and Definitions

The minimum categories for data on race and ethnicity for Federal statistics, program administrative reporting, and civil rights compliance reporting are defined as follows:

-- American Indian or Alaska Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.

-- Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.

-- Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. Terms such as "Haitian" or "Negro" can be used in addition to "Black or African American."

-- Hispanic or Latino. A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race. The term, "Spanish origin," can be used in addition to "Hispanic or Latino."

-- Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.

-- White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Respondents shall be offered the option of selecting one or more racial designations. Recommended forms for the instruction accompanying the multiple response question are "Mark one or more" and "Select one or more."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg_1997standards

[shaayecanaan]

7. Very charitable of them (nt)

[VanillaRhapsody]

9. I see what you did there.....

Nicely played ....nicely played indeed!

[JustAnotherGen]

37. Well it's true

Understand - you didn't put the race card in the deck. I didn't either. But - this is the Social Construct that you signed up to live in.

[wocaonimabi]

35. It does not matter how our Government defines white or any other race as

There are the written rules and the unwritten rules when it comes to race in America and what matters is how the masses define white and being an Arab or of Middle Eastern descent does not count as white, unless you are Jesus then you are lily white with blue eyes and blond hair and could easily pass as a white man in the antebellum south.

I am not commenting on the rightness or wrongness of it I am just stating how it really is in America.

[gtar100]

11. Very insightful Thank you for putting this together.

I am by general definition "white" but feel the prejudices more along class lines than simply race. We need to rid ourselves of both types of prejudices and between whites, class distinction is quite prominent. I saw the same thing in Guatemala between Guatemalans; same thing. Race ends up being quite a good distraction for the rich to hide the fact that their hording of the world's resources is the real source of oppression that has a real and tangible effect on our lives.

[shaayecanaan]

16. More so than that...

"progress" becomes a matter of simply adding women and minorities to the ruling class. When the Old Left was still a force, the rich had to actually contend with the idea of paying a fair amount of tax.

It used to be that fairness meant reducing the wealth gap between the working class and ruling class. These days it is simply a matter of making the ruling class more politically pluralistic.

I am not denying racism, eg black people not getting picked up by taxis or served quickly in stores. I am saying that those kinds of racism are a natural function of class and of white people have preponderantly more money - ie, "I wont pick up that Black guy, I'll pick up that white guy because he'll likely be wealthier and he'll tip me better". Even Black or Asian taxi drivers will pick up white customers more frequently than Black.

It is very, very easy to appeal to ethnic tensions, far easier than it is to build class consciousness. Bebel (leader of the German Democratic Socialists before WW1) said that "Anti-Semitism was the socialism of fools". He wasn't just being PC. He meant that appealing to ethnic resentment against Jewish capitalists, rather than class resentment of capitalists as a whole, was a fool's errand.

[defacto7]

13. I appreciate your thorough academic approach.

Although I usually appreciate well stated and educated opinions, there are times when that is not enough. Racism in America is far more complicated historically and far more simple in reality than you seem to grasp. It's an animal like no other on the planet and to apply a global view is to miss the mark.

It seems you are very experienced and well traveled. I hope you continue to have an interest in finding the cause and effect of American racism or maybe discover the necessary changes needed in America's cultural evolution that most of us grapple with every day, but you will have to "walk" this one. You won't find it in the archives of academia or on the streets of Calcutta. Maybe... Birmingham 1962... or Los Angeles 2014.

[shaayecanaan]

21. "We're different"

essentially the foundational statement of American hubris.

I've spent time in America.

Most of the time I marvel at what a hopeless-to-God, lowballing pathetic excuse it has for a "Left". Not even the president is willing to identify as a "liberal", let alone a socialist.

Barack Obama says he is opposed to single-payer healthcare. The Conservative Party of Great Britain supports single payer healthcare (the NHS). Of course, they were forced to, by a social democratic party that had the sense to not endorse identity politics to the extent that the United States did. Still, by any metric the Democratic party is to the right of virtually every conservative party in Europe.

[JustAnotherGen]

39. Have you spent time

In America as a black person living under Jim Crow? Or in living quarters with someone who did?

That's my experience. And not all blacks in America 100 years ago were share croppers - my family was not. My grandfather and his father both voted in Alabama - they were known as staunch Republicans. They were also known for having hidden wealth and doing business with shady people.

But those things did not stop my grandfather from getting his three sons out of America by any means necessary during the 50's and 60's. It also didn't prevent my father from telling us the "rules of survival" in the 1980's.

Not just about how we were to deal with authority figures - for survival. But that in a country where STILL so few that "looked like us" we're privileged we had a duty to honor the privileges granted us and to remain humble, empathetic, and understand but there but by the grace of booze (yes booze) go I.

Something I've read at DU ever since the Snowden debacle - Authoritarian. That word.

It's a word of white privilege.

Because my nephews, my brother, my cousins, my surviving uncle - they don't have the "luxury" of not acknowledging that traditionally defying authority - be it the authority of the social construct - gets you shot or lynched. Ask the spirit of Jordan Davis. If he had only done what that man wanted him to do . . .

Barack Obama is like me - only difference is my parents were married til death did they part. I understand him. Perhaps even more so than a person who grew up with two black parents. He is about a decade older but I'm sure - having read his work - that like me it's okay to say - we ARE different even though we are ALL Americans.

And well - his story like mine - could only have happened in America. I remember his visit to Ireland. I've seen the same look in my eyes in pictures of myself from my first visit there and my first visits as an adult to Southern France. That ability for a person of African descent (be it a post colonial child of an African immigrant or a descendent of slaves) to have direct connections to their European heritage - that's an American Tale.

I don't doubt your life experience - and truly it is amazing. It has colored your world view. But so has mine.

[myrna minx]

52. Thank you for sharing your experience and family history with us. It's very moving.

[Blue_Tires]

163. I swear I haven't been able to find it in the archives yet, but...

There was another "I'm-not-black-but-let-me-tell-you-the-problems-with-black-people" OP 2-3 years ago which had a lot of similarities to this one -- I mean the talking points are almost carbon-copy:

1. The author of the previous piece was supposedly Asian (establishes non-white creds)
2. The author of the previous piece was grew up poor (pulling up by the bootstraps)
3. The author of the previous piece spent some time growing up in Africa (worldly, well-traveled)
4. The author of the previous piece worked in academia (educated, expert on subject)
5. The author of the previous piece had a lot of half-assed assumptions and huge leaps in logic in his assessment of Black Americans
6. The author of the previous piece had the same condescending minor points (i.e., African immigrants being "better" than 'regular' Black Americans, etc.)

I'm not saying that OP and this one are the same, but they *are* getting their talking points from the same source...

[JustAnotherGen]

172. I'd love to see that

[Blue_Tires]

173. Found it...Not quite the same as I remembered it

Since this person is talking about crime as opposed to 'white privilege', but there are some similarities

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023280832

[JustAnotherGen]

174. It's the way of thinking

Just in general - which could open up a whole new topic. . .

Too often in racial prejudice and bigotry in this country is a discussion between black/white. A good discussion? One worth having? Prejudice and bigotry amongst minority groups.

Asian, black, Native, Latino, etc. etc. - doesn't give one a 'free pass' to be ugly to the bone.

[M0rpheus]

175. You know, I remember that post.

So, I thought I'd go searching through the archives to go find it, since my days are open and I need something to do...
Haven't found the OP in question (still looking, though), but I found something I already knew... This "war" has been going on for a long time here and it doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Using the key words "White Privilege" and,"racism" or, "Black people" and "racism" combined with class offers up quite a lot of bile. The players change but the conversation remains the same.

*on edit I see you found it. That's what I get for running errands before submitting my replay.

[defacto7]

122. You seem to think I disagree with your statement

concerning the right leaning of US political parties. I do not, and I didn't address that part of your OP. But the fact that you think my counter point about racism is "American hubris" is only to state how much you are unable to comprehend it. I didn't say we are different, I said racism here does not fit a global norm; and why should it? Racism in every country in the world is different in its origin and the reality of its effect. Combining the effects of racism from other nations then applying it to America is as absurd as applying it to any other nation. I think you have a single bone to pick and probably are unable to learn from points outside of your own prejudices. That is worse than hubris, it's the self importance of exclusion.

..and spending time in America was definitely not what I suggested.

You made some good points in your OP. You also made some rather prejudiced ones.

But, be well.

[kwassa]

157. Excellent post. Racism is indeed different in different cultures ...

there is no "one size fits all".

[Blue_Tires]

162. There is NOTHING "academic" about the OP's analysis...

A simple opinion backed up by a bunch of personal anecdotes is still a simple opinion...

[defacto7]

164. Was I too subtle?

I was being kind maybe because it looked like the poster was out of his league on the subject matter and just needed a springboard and a little information to go from. I'd like to think someone who has thought out a post as detailed as this may have enough interest to learn something. But after some of his later comments I have no reason to believe your observation isn't the fact.

[trublu992]

14. You have no idea what you are talking about

and have no real understanding of race in America. The sentence that puts your "understanding" in context is as follows:

If Blacks held as much money as Whites there would be no White privilege. It is therefore, essentially a function of class, rather than one which attaches to race irrespective of context.

It less about money and more about institutional control.

[shaayecanaan]

17. Those who have the money control the institutions (nt)

[JI7]

30. so indian americans are controlling the institutions ?

[shaayecanaan]

32. the ruling class controls the institutions (nt)

[JI7]

33. in your op you mentioned that indian americans make the most money

and then you made the post about those with money controlling the institutions .

[shaayecanaan]

79. I was not asserting that the ruling class consists entirely

of Indian Americans. It seems absurd that I actually have to write that.

[JI7]

97. what is absurd is you claiming no racism and then in the thread excusing racism

with things like "whites just have more money" "chinese don't drink"

[hfojvt]

62. I would note

that some black people do have money
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024141976#post63

[JI7]

23. exactly, WHY do certain groups tendto have more than others, it ignores this question

it's actually very right wng.

and of course follow up with "but OPRAH" ?????????????? as "proof".

[uponit7771]

51. Exactly! The Indian American reasoning is job and credit extended to them

[shaayecanaan]

83. Climate, largely...

the temperate regions in Europe were more suited to growing cereal crops (tropical agriculture in Asia and Africa is difficult, there is no winter to keep the bugs down, and the humidity and fungus rapidly destroy stored grain).

Europeans were therefore able to accumulate a substantial food surplus. There can be no trade without a surplus, and no capitalism without trade. This gave the Europeans a substantial advantage over Africans, which led to industrialisation, slavery and colonialism.

Europeans were the last major population movement out of Africa. As recently as 5,000 years ago, Europeans were still physically Black (the Bordeaux cave paintings for example depict the local people as having dark skin).

It was, ironically, the birth of primitive agrarian capitalism that led to the rapid development of white skin amongst Europeans. The switch from a hunter-gatherer food intake to cereals resulted in a diet that was deficient in Vitamin D, which humans can source from sunlight.

Ironically then, even the physical development of race itself was a consequence of class. Europeans developed light hair and skin as an adaptation to cope with their new status as an agrarian rather than a hunter-gatherer society.

[geardaddy]

201. Oh boy.

You do realize that not all of Asia lies in the tropics and that there is winter there. That China has a long history of agriculture long before Europeans ever did.

[Number23]

93. Thank you. I said pretty much the same thing down thread.

[JI7]

26. your arguments are pretty much "how can there be global warming, it's cold and snowing"

[BaronChocula]

28. As someone who grew up in America...

WP isn't about economics. It's about standards and behavior. White people get away with things that black people (and most other minorities) can't. The bad rap blacks get goes back hundreds of years to when whites justified slavery by arguing the inferiority of Africans. Whites promulgated the notion that blacks were all immoral, amoral, promiscuous, feeble-minded, sly, infantile, sneaky, etc. by nature. And to this day, you find suspicion STILL among whites that black people are these things. I don't care how much money a black person has, they have stories about having to jump through twice as many hoops to get the same place as a white person. If you've heard the question "what if the roles were reversed" following a shooting trial where race was involved, then you know WP is a "thing." It's about justice. White people get a pass black people don't get. That is privilege. There is no other word for it.

[shaayecanaan]

81. People think Blacks are sneaky...

and they thought Jews were cheap, Irish were drunks, Japanese were treacherous, Chinese people were opium addicts, Indians were pagan curry munchers.

Despite those racist attitudes, I would assert that Jews, Irish and Indians would have no problems obtaining a rental property in the US, for example. That is because there is no association between being Indian or Jewish and being poor.

[Tanuki]

34. You say that your family made its vast fortune in the gem trade in Africa. Out of curiosity,

what proportion of your peers in the business were Black Africans? What about the workers in the gem mines on whose backs your fortune was made? What were their working conditions like, my Marxist friend? And what proportion of them were Black Africans? What proportion were Lebanese immigrants, or other white people?

[JustAnotherGen]

42. All fair questions

[Bluenorthwest]

48. Very fair question for 'something of a Marxist' wealthy from trading stones in Africa

'My family exploits the locals and NGOs for profit, I am a lawyer and a bit of a Marxist'. Just hilarious material.

[redqueen]

65. +1

[hughee99]

73. Exactly, could you even imagine a marxist growing up in a wealthy family.

?resize=281%2C350

And everyone, of course, has the same political leanings as their parents.

[JI7]

98. would a marxist excuse racism and use "they have more money" as justification for discrimination ?

[shaayecanaan]

101. Would a ruling class flunky wrongly accuse people of racism?

Probably. Its how they operate:-

I don't excuse racism and never have.

[JI7]

102. you have excused it and made lame comparisons to tall basketball players, chinese who don't drink

[shaayecanaan]

110. To be honest, I probably would walk the tall comment back if I could...

I didnt make that comment in the context of "white privilege", I made it in the context of someone who said I had "Arab privilege". The point I was trying to make was regarding the meaningless proliferation of labels, ie I had "Arab privilege" and supposedly wealthy Chinese and Indian Americans have "Chinese privilege" and "Indian privilege". There comes a time when it is simply a matter of those groups being preponderantly wealthy - ie having "class privilege" or more accurately, simply being "privileged". I realise, however, in retrospect that someone could interpret me as having compared racism with simply not being tall enough.

If you're accusing me of racism by saying that Chinese people don't drink much, good luck with that. I can't see too many Chinese getting upset over it.

[fishwax]

40. *the term* "white privilege" doesn't destroy class consciousness, but *white privilege* does

Talking about racism and racist power structures is not the problem. Racism and racist power structures are. Understanding and addressing the importance of class in American inequality doesn't require us to ignore race and racism. It requires us not to.

The trade unions provide an important example. I'm afraid your assessment of the 20th-century union movement--that the union movement "encouraged working class people to organise and to overlook their racial and religious differences"--is simplistically rosy. Parts of the union movement did, sure ... and they did so not by pretending that racism didn't exist, but by acknowledging it and its role in keeping the working class down. However, there were other parts of the union movement that were explicitly discriminatory to African Americans and other non-whites.

[shaayecanaan]

82. It didnt matter...

the union leadership, whether they were racist or not, had to admit African Americans to its membership, or else they would have left employers with a readily available source of scab labour.

Equally, it was in the natural interest of unions to make sure that Blacks were paid at the same level as Whites, or else there would have been a natural advantage for employers to hire Blacks over Whites.

The unions, therefore, had a natural interest in fostering class solidarity, not because of any charitable intention, but because of simple self-interest.

[fishwax]

135. Of course it mattered. African Americans were systematically excluded from much of labor's gains

because they were excluded from many unions and marginalized within many others.

the union leadership, whether they were racist or not, had to admit African Americans to its membership, or else they would have left employers with a readily available source of scab labour.

Equally, it was in the natural interest of unions to make sure that Blacks were paid at the same level as Whites, or else there would have been a natural advantage for employers to hire Blacks over Whites.

The unions, therefore, had a natural interest in fostering class solidarity, not because of any charitable intention, but because of simple self-interest.

That's nice in theory. But that is not how it happened in the real world. Many unions excluded African Americans outright. Some others admitted black members, but didn't provide them access to leadership, didn't take seriously their distinct concerns, or marginalized them in other ways. (Even in the most racially progressive unions, African American workers were still generally cut off from promotion to higher-paying skilled positions.)

There were some unions that actively recruited African American workers, especially in the industrial unions that broke from the American Federation of Labor in the 1930s. As I said before, they relied not on a campaign of denying race or racism, but rather addressing it and cultivating alliances with civil rights leaders and organizations.

By the mid 1960s, most labor unions had integrated--not from simple self-interest, but as a result of continued struggle among people committed to civil rights. (Even integrated unions sometimes still had segregated locals, though.) Eventually leadership, as you say, *had* to admit African American members ... not for strategic reasons, but rather for legal reasons, since discrimination in unions was covered by the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

[WestIndianArchie]

41. You don't like the term "White Privilege"

You obviously have no clue...........Maybe you should start reading books

[shaayecanaan]

100. Maybe you should start reading this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_People's_Campaign#Assassination

Of course, this was after the FBI planted false flags trying to paint the Quakers and other white anti-poverty groups as racists:-

[Tuesday Afternoon]

44. Just because you do not like the term does not mean it does not exist.

Going off on a tangent here ...

Bill Gates takes back World’s Richest Man title from Mexican billionaire Carlos Slim
by Adrian Carrasquillo, @RealAdrianC

Move over Carlos Slim, Bill Gates has taken back the title of Richest Man in the World.

Gates’ fortune stands at a staggering $72.7 billion, according to the updated Bloomberg Billionaires Index.

Slim, 73, now worth $72.1 billion, saw his wealth drop after Mexico‘s Congress passed a bill that hit his company, America Movil, the largest mobile-phone operator in the Americas. The company has dropped 14 percent this year, helping erase more than $3 billion from the tycoon’s net worth, according to Bloomberg.

“When they’re talking about reform in a country that’s generally poor, and the guy shows up No. 1 on the list — not a good thing,” Greg Lesko, managing director at New-York-based Deltec Asset Management LLC, told Bloomberg. “He’s had a pretty good monopoly situation in Mexico, and the Mexican cellphone user has been paying more than he should. We applaud it for the country.”

Slim also maintains holdings in banking (Inbursa) and mining (Minera Frisco), as well as Philip Morris, New York Times, Saks, Caixabank and Grupo Carso of the Mexican construction industry. He was the World’s Richest Man for the last four years, according to Forbes’ billionaires list.

more at link:
http://nbclatino.com/2013/05/17/bill-gates-takes-back-worlds-richest-man-title-from-mexican-billionaire-carlos-slim/

?w=640&h=457&crop=1

Bill Gates has surpassed Carlos Slim as the richest man in the world due to the strength of Microsoft shares in 2013. (Getty Images)

[sufrommich]

47. Of course white privilege exists and every attempt

to label it as a social class issue instead of racism is tantamount to telling black people that they are imagining racism. The most powerful person in this country is a black man,and he is attacked using his race every. single.day.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. Dishonest title, it is not that you dislike the term, it is that you deny the thing exists.

You are incorrect and sound like a Republican.

[Squinch]

54. White privilege is actually a very accurate description of the situation it describes.

I would agree that we could use an ADDITIONAL term to describe class privilege, but that doesn't mean that white privilege doesn't exist as it is described by the term. It does.

Further, some of your conclusions point to a disturbing belief in stereotypes. For example, you say the use of the term "white privilege" gives you a "free pass" to "bask in the comfort of being a persecuted group." You state overtly that the use of the term "takes away initiative." Paraphrased, this could be restated as saying, "It keeps them lazy." This is flatly wrong. The thing that allows non-whites to feel persecuted is a widespread and endemic persecution. You say you haven't felt this. I am glad for you. To decide on that basis that others don't experience it either is, again, flatly wrong.

[gollygee]

55. OK so let's see

You don't like the concept of white privilege because it makes black people lazy, and the Beyonce' argument (if there is any wealthy black person, then white privilege must not exist.)

And no one should talk about racism and racial privilege until there are no poor white people.

Also, you are wrong that black people would have as much privilege than white people if they had as much money, although they'll never as a group have as much money because of white privilege. White people who are convicted felons have an easier time getting a job than black people with no criminal record. (Google it.) Not only is there white privilege, it is huge and touches people in many ways.

[sufrommich]

56. I think that's it in a nutshell.

Apparently,the "what about Oprah?" defense is never going to die.

[redqueen]

67. +1

Another excellent post.

[shaayecanaan]

86. Complete bullshit...

Black people are forced to work harder per dollar than probably any other sector of society. The point is that no amount of Beyonces or Oprahs or Obamas will make conditions any materially different for the Black working class.

Also, you are wrong that black people would have as much privilege than white people if they had as much money

Bullshit. Just look at the differences between Saudi citizens (who are basically Bedouins that stumbled upon vast oil wealth and had the good sense to stop Westerners from taking it) and other aboriginal people around the world.

Compare Seminole Native Americans in Florida (who are quite wealthy from their casinos) to other aboriginal groups in the US or Canada. They dont have to worry about going to jail because they don't need to. They have money.

[uponit7771]

185. I actually have LESS privilege than whites as a well off black man. I STILL have to answer to the...

... police as to why I'm walking in a neighborhood I live in certain parts of this country ( by experience)

You're dead wrong on the privilege part...

Dead ass'd wrong

[geardaddy]

202. Spot on.

[1awake]

57. There's a problem with your post...

It is in opposition to strongly held beliefs (whether true or not) and thus won't be tolerated here. Expect to be laughed at, made fun of or just degraded, and since I haven't looked, I'm sure it has already happened.

Great well written post. While I don't fully agree with all of pertaining to the US, it brings up excellent points to consider. Thanks.

~1

[shaayecanaan]

99. Apparently I am a racist

and a Marxist Republican (who knew?). Reminds me of when Fox News tried to call Obama a Muslim and a Communist in the same week.

[Spider Jerusalem]

59. Here's the best personal example I can think of to sum up "white privilege".

I had to appear in court, some time ago. So I had a shave, put on a suit and tie and a pair of freshly-shined shoes. Showed up at the courtroom. I was probably the only white defendant there. The bailiff asked me "excuse me sir, are you a lawyer?"

"White privilege" isn't just about circumstance and economics but about inherent social and cultural assumptions. It has nothing to do with whether or not people of colour can succeed.

And it's somewhat disingenuous to say "Indian-Americans have the highest household income"; people of Indian origin comprise less than 1% of the population, and those who have emigrated to the USA are very frequently of relatively high social class and status in India to begin with and tend to be university-educated professionals (mostly in the fields of medicine, engineering, and academia). Non-Hispanic whites comprise 63% of the US population. That's almost two hundred million people. There are many many more high-income non-Hispanic whites than there are Indians or Jews (another group which outperforms generic "white Americans" in median household income but represents a very small percentage of the population).

[Le Taz Hot]

61. It's ALWAYS been about class warfare.

This whole Black v. White, Young v. Old, Catholic v. Protestant, Christian v. Jew, men v. women, Democrat v. Republican, ad nauseam is a way to distract us as to who holds and controls the wealth and resources.

We get bogged down in all the other bullshit, which is what the PTB are counting on and we're not paying attention to ONLY real issue and that is wealth/resource distribution.

I appreciate your post and believe you have many valid points. I think you're brave posting it here. No doubt you will have your share of detractors.

[TBF]

66. Largely agree -

I still think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Meaning that we can work for more equitable resource distribution while also realizing that we still have a long way to go on women's issues, civil rights, ageism etc.

But you are correct - presently "The 85 Richest People In The World Have As Much Wealth As The 3.5 Billion Poorest". And those 85 will do everything they can to stoke the fires of distraction because it is to their advantage to do so.

(http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2014/01/23/the-85-richest-people-in-the-world-have-as-much-wealth-as-the-3-5-billion-poorest/)

[Le Taz Hot]

68. I agree that we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Maybe it's just my inherent 1960's outlook but if we're all working for the same cause -- wealth re-redistribution -- aren't we inherently equal in the work and in the goal itself? Further, wouldn't it be possible for that experience to guide us toward correcting the other issues that you mentioned?

Finally, I think we spend ENORMOUS amounts of time focusing on differences between the various groups and not nearly enough time focusing on our similarities. The one cause that can easily bind us altogether is to take back the wealth of this country which rightly belongs to the people.

[TBF]

71. I can't argue with that -

sometimes it does take precedence and it can't. Not with 85 people controlling most of the world's wealth.

[Boom Sound 416]

64. Great post

Well written, thought provoking

[gulliver]

70. Using misguided terms like "white privilege" is foolish.

There are a lot of divisive, destructive things to say that have a ring of truth. Focusing on racist bugaboos like "white privilege" is a net backfire for liberalism. It's just a sneaky way of saying "white undeserved success." It's hard to put someone's race in a phrase without it being racist. Try it as an exercise if you like.

People who are attracted to front- and back-handed forms of racist dialogue hurt everyone. They are just fools to be pitied and ignored until they grow up.

[Squinch]

77. "White privilege" is not a "sneaky" term. It quite openly states what it is saying.

And "white undeserved success" is not something that we need sneaky terms for, because it's existence is painfully obvious.

There is nothing wrong with naming what is staring you in the face.

And I am a white woman.

[Boom Sound 416]

149. In a word

Damnstraight

[kjones]

75. I think a lot of people don't get the Marxism.

I may be one of them, I admit to having maybe a passable
understanding of Marxism.

Marxism is all about the class, material conditions and production.
Race doesn't really factor in there, so, unlike some others evidently,
I don't see any inconsistency there.
I'm currently mid way through a graduate Marxism class, reading a lot
of stuff I probably wouldn't have gotten around to otherwise. There
are some interesting ideas in there, not all of them I agree with, but
thought provoking nonetheless.
I think what people are missing (unless I'm misunderstanding you) is
that your point isn't that racism etc doesn't exist but that it is both
a symptom of, and a distraction from, class and economic problems.
And that is something people can agree with or disagree with, but I
think we can all agree that both types of problems exist (social relations,
such as racism, and economic problems) and need to be fixed. I also think
most of us would agree, as stated a few posts up, that we can "walk
and chew gum at the same time." You may not agree to that though, in
fact, your post implies as much. Again, to each their own.

So to sum up, I understand basically what you're going for and I respect that,
though I personally think we should keep fighting all issues on all fronts. I think
Pandora's Box is opened and even if conditions of economic equality were
installed in America tomorrow, there are still some problems that would not
be fixed by it, domino style, even given time.

Hopefully, my interpretation of what you've posted is correct, and the
negative reactions above are unwarranted...that is, other posters regarding
race and believing you are purposefully derailing racial equality or are using
Republican talking points.
Because Republicans either argue that racism doesn't exist or is somehow a
positive thing, while what you're saying is "there are bigger things to deal with
that, if fixed, will fix racism in turn."

[shaayecanaan]

80. Thank you

I would have thought it clear that I was not denying that racism exists.

Neither am I denying that racism does and can exist even independently of class.

However, the privilege that white people enjoy is not some magical property of having lighter skin, it is a natural consequence of having greater wealth.

[kjones]

85. Well, that's probably a little much.

As I said, I agree with some things in Marxism, and while
I believe economic factors are important, I don't believe they are
the "end-all" (nor is racism, sexism, or any ~ism).
There are many causes and many problems in society, and they
are all interconnected (I believe Althusser has something to say
about that). I think to give primacy to one is a little disingenuous
to the complexity of world problems.

As to white privilege, there are plenty of cases of minority individuals
who are doing quite well but are beset by racism. Obama is doing,
quite well I would say. He's also a very visible target of racism.

[Starry Messenger]

166. "Marxism is all about the class, material conditions and production"

"Race doesn't really factor in there, so, unlike some others evidently"

Not at all true. Marx and Engels wrote extensively about racism in the US.

[kjones]

168. Maybe it's not stated right.

First of all, again, still have a limited reading of Marxist thought
and theory, so yeah, I could be way off base. But as I've been
given the chance to understand it Marx give primacy to class,
material conditions, production and such. Racism is just one
of many items in the capitalists' toolkit that is used to perpetuate
the system and fixing racism follows fixing the relations of production
and such.
At least, that is what I've been lead to believe by the professors/other
students. I have yet to read anything by Marx/Engels themselves that
directly addresses race, but like I said, still reading stuff. I'm also told
that later Marxist writers did incorporate race more into the theories.
So anyway, Capitalism -> Racism as a symptom of capitalist control is
how I've heard it. So even as I've understood it, I was wrong to say
"race doesn't really factor in there." It does, as a symptom of capitalism
itself.

So perhaps I've been mislead and have yet to read the sections which
would show me that.

Since I'm still reading stuff, I would be interested in the sections of
Marx work directly addressing race, if you know what they are.

[Starry Messenger]

170. "Writings on the U.S. Civil War"

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx//works/1861/us-civil-war/

Many sections here deal with race and slavery in the US.

[kjones]

176. None of them really seem to discuss racism itself.

Marx gives all discussion of slavery the treatment of
"economic system."

"The whole movement was and is based, as one sees, on the slave question. Not in the sense of whether the slaves within the existing slave states should be emancipated outright or not, but whether the twenty million free men of the North should submit any longer to an oligarchy of three hundred thousand slaveholders" (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx//works/1861/10/25.htm)

In fact, he even seems generally more concerned the plight of the average poor white southerner
than slaves (as true as the problems of poor whites may have been under the systems of slavery).

"the number of actual slaveholders in the South of the Union does not amount to more than three hundred thousand, a narrow oligarchy that is confronted with many millions of so-called poor whites, whose numbers have been constantly growing through concentration of landed property and whose condition is only to be compared with that of the Roman plebeians in the period of Rome's extreme decline."


It's not that he ignores race or racism, but that he gives primary focus to economics/production and such, and treats
racism as a symptom. Or that's what it seems like.

Both those quotes are taken from the first piece listed, but I did look through all of them, it just happened those quotes were in there. Most of the other ones are more like news pieces or discuss politics. There is an interesting one in there where he contrasts European (I think all British aristocrats) concern with Union treatment of New Orleans women with British aristocratic lack of concern for treatment of poor women in Britain and Ireland itself.

Again, may have missed, omitted, misinterpreted etc. I'm interested in anything else as well. I'm just happy to actually
be having a conversation on DU again.

[Starry Messenger]

191. "Labor in the white skin can never free itself as long as labor in the black skin is branded.”

Karl Marx. (Capital)

You don't get black chattel slavery without racism.

He disputes and disproves the whole "economic" argument that the Civil War was started over tariffs, and correctly locates the source of the conflict is over slavery and freeing the slaves.

There are other pieces out there in his writing. Some good selections in this article.

http://www.internationalmarxisthumanist.org/articles/abolitionists-marx-slavery-race-class-dyne-suh

<snip>

As for how racialized slavery came to be, Marx marked “the turning of Africa into a warren for the commercial hunting of black skins,” as the pivotal point that “signalized the rosy dawn of the era of capitalist production.”[4] Marx acknowledged that slavery was “found among all nations since the world began,”[5] but the slavery that paved the way for the emergence of Western capitalism had a unique and aberrant quality that contrasted it from slave systems in other societies of the past. In previous slave societies, people became slaves when they were taken as prisoners of war. It was a humane alternative to killing the vanquished.

Slavery and Capitalism

Under capitalism, the inhumane process of acquiring slaves came to resemble that of acquiring raw materials and livestock as free people were dehumanized and commoditized. The slave status became immutable and marked by birth. Like a commodity market, “the slave market itself maintains a constant supply of its labor-power commodity by war, piracy, etc.,” similar to the way gold had been acquired over the centuries for its market, although slaves were distinct in that they were commodities that reproduced themselves.[6] Although the modern Transatlantic Slave Trade was not the first instance of racialized slavery, Marx identified these distinct qualities of this slave system involving the branding of African skins as slaves as part of the foundation of Western capitalism.

<snip>

All subsequent Marxist workers have found that overcoming racism in white workers is key to making any gains in labor, as racism is a tool of the ruling class to divide and conquer. Only considering "class" is a barrier to work and actually fosters racism.

[Iggo]

76. I experience White Privilege because I look white.

I have no problem with that term.

[shaayecanaan]

84. Maybe this guy says it better

[westerebus]

90. Thanks for that.

I needed the laugh.

[steve2470]

87. Of course there's white privilege

My family is from Germany (1700's) and Great Britain (probably also 1700's). To be clear, I'm as Caucasian as they come. Blonde hair and blue eyes. I am treated well everywhere I go. I've only had ONE bad interaction with the police, and I think that was the individual cop involved. When I am out and about late at night/early in the morning, I am never detained or hassled by the police. I am never followed in stores. My problems are solely because of my personality/background, and not because of my race.

Anyone who is not Caucasian and male has a disadvantage in this country. It's very clear to me. I voted for President Obama but frankly I did not expect him to win. I'm extraordinarily glad he won. To be frank, if the economy had been doing well at that time, he may have narrowly lost to McCain.

White privilege is not debatable.

[shaayecanaan]

88. I am not denying that racism exists...

I am saying that it is the product of material circumstances. I realise that Americans, for various reasons, are reluctant to talk about class. They like to think that make a few tweaks here and there, get rid of the racism - and capitalism can go on as it always has.

American media are happy to talk about race. However, any discussion of class leads to accusations of "class warfare". Funnily enough, hardly anyone accuses politicians of fomenting "race warfare" by talking about race. Presumably the ruling class thinks race warfare is a good thing.

White people are not on top because they're brilliant. I'm sorry if you thought that was the case. They are on top because they came into the game with material advantages.

It is not enough to say, as one poster said above, that white people have privilege because of institutional control. It is circular reasoning (white people have institutional control because of white privilege, and have white privilege as a consequence of institutional control).

[steve2470]

89. Caucasians founded the USA

Yes, there were non-Caucasians here as well, but without exception in the 18th century, all the people of power were Caucasian and male. They were also rich or at least upper-middle class.

If non-Caucasians had founded the country, I think the situation would be completely different. Yes, money/assets have a huge role to play but race is truly the trump card. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

[bettyellen]

94. LOL- the circular reasoning bit in order to deny reality. you have out the cart - "material

circumstances" before the horse - institutional control.

It seems you are as unaware of our colonial beginnings in the USA as you are in exactly admitting how much you have profited from colonialism in Africa. I m doubting that's a mistake.

[Number23]

92. "Barack Obama, for example, did not come from the same social class as "traditional" African America

And what would that "class" be?

http://blackdemographics.com/households/middle-class/

By most measures the poverty rates for AA's is about 25% which is stunningly, shockingly high but means that most blacks are middle class. But of course, the high number for that rate is according to people like you a "distraction" created by the "1%" for their betterment and has absolutely nothing to do with the institutionalized system of racial apartheid upon which this country was founded and prospered.

For the record, I'm not sure why you posted this. You show a typical but nonetheless discouraging amount of historical ignorance of American history. You have spouted the exact same willfully clueless talking points ("it's not race, it's class!" and that the "fascination with race" is some social construct that's popped up in the last 50 years and only benefits the 1%) that others have spouted for decades.

The only thing interesting about this post is your language, particularly this sentence "The term "white privilege" also gives the Black middle class a pass, which frankly they probably don't deserve either." which I find utterly fascinating.

[shaayecanaan]

95. I'm not sure why you posted this response, to be honest...

although I do find it remarkable that a household income of 35K per year is considered "middle class" in the US. In Australia, it wouldnt even be minimum wage.

Frankly, I find your attempt to whitewash Black disadvantage to be fascinating.

You have spouted the exact same willfully clueless talking points ("it's not race, it's class!" and that the "fascination with race" is some social construct that's popped up in the last 50 years and only benefits the 1%) that others have spouted for decades.

Funnily enough, someone up the thread also accused me of spouting Republican talking points.

It does come as quite a surprise to me. I wasn't aware that Marxism was part of the Republican political platform.

[bravenak]

103. In the history of America when talking about white privilege, it's race not class.

If a rich black man can get Arrested at Barney's for using their own damn credit card, what does that show you??

You need to study more history. Period.


It's wasn't until recently that we could even live in the same neighborhoods as white people no matter how much money we had.
It wasn't until recently that we could vote.
They are shutting down polling stations in black neighborhoods, cutting voting days, and anything else they can do to keep the white wealthy male power structures in place.


You are spouting republican talking points and it's quite sad that you are oblivious to the facts.
Try learning some black history, black American history, in honor of Black history month.


You are making me so mad I can't even breakdown your original post. There's so much terribly wrong with it, I don't know where to start. I'd like to teach you something but I can't tell it's not worth my time to try to teach a person who knows everything already. Quite unfortunate.

[JI7]

105. and it's often non wealthy whites who support these things

[El_Johns]

107. It's wealthy whites who are pushing, demagoging and enacting them.

[JI7]

108. yes, like koch brothers, but they get support from whites including many who aren't wealthy

and vote for racist politicians .

[El_Johns]

112. They do, from some, but poorer people are more liable to 1) vote less and 2) vote democratic than

other economic class.

So the poor aren't really the "base" for these policies. And the policies wouldn't exist without the push from the top. They are the substitute proffered for policies which would actually benefit people.

[JI7]

114. the top would then include middle class people who often vote for 1 percent over 99

and this is why i say "non wealthy" rather than "poor"

[El_Johns]

117. Yes. that's my point. The political base for racist dogwhistles is not "white trash," it's the

middle and upper middle.

So this meme about "voting against one's interests" isn't really true.

Nor is the knee-jerk calling up the image of toothless white racist cretins from the backwoods.

[bravenak]

111. And poor whites that support them and vote in those candidates to office who will do things

to keep the structures they are used to in place. Been like that forever.

[El_Johns]

116. Not the case.

On the other hand, from 1976 through 2004 there is a strong and fairly consistent income gradient evident in the presidential voting behavior of white Americans. Averaging over the eight presidential elections of this period, whites in the bottom third of the income distribution cast 51% of their votes for Democrats, as compared with 44% of middle-income whites and 37% of upper-income whites. The gap in Democratic support between upper-income whites and lower-income whites thus increased from 4% in the earlier period to 14% after 1976. The 2004 election was, as it happens, quite consistent with the pattern since 1976: John Kerry received 50% of the two-party vote among whites in the lower third of the income distribution and 39% among those in the upper third of the income distribution - a difference of 11%.


It should be clear from these comparisons that economic status has become more important, not less important, in structuring the presidential voting behavior of white Americans over the course of the past half-century. Moreover, the general trend in support for Democratic presidential candidates among whites in the bottom third of the income distribution has been upward, not downward. Nor is this merely an artifact of anemic working-class support for Adlai Stevenson running against Dwight Eisenhower in the first two elections of this sequence; Al Gore and John Kerry did better among low-income whites in the close elections of 2000 and 2004 than John Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey did in the close elections of 1960 and 1968. Thus, while it is generally true that Democratic presidential candidates have lost support among white voters over the past half-century, those losses have been entirely (and roughly equally) concentrated in the middle- and upper-income groups, and have been partially offset by increasing support for Democratic candidates among low-income white voters.


http://www.mydd.com/2005/10/13/republican-economic-policies-are-shifting-working-class-voters-to-democrats

[bravenak]

109. Of course they do.

Keeps them slightly above us, they think.

[shaayecanaan]

137. Yes, those damn Republicans and their appeal to class struggle

I cant stand those right wing communist bastards.

[JI7]

138. they appeal to their racism , this is why it was after civil rights that many turned against social

programs. when they saw that the coloreds would benefit.

but you go on ignoring racism. people have mentioned actual numbers which show it IS about race.

[Number23]

115. That's my girl...

You are spouting republican talking points and it's quite sad that you are oblivious to the facts.
Try learning some black history, black American history, in honor of Black history month.

Sadly, bravenak this isn't just "republican" talking points. There are alot of people regardless of political affiliation that don't have a clue as this OP and its supporters show.

This OP is so full of wrong and ignorant I don't know where to start. Trying to be rational about it. And the rec list is a just a Who's Who of Cluelessness.

[bravenak]

121. It's the same damn rec list everytime!

Some people just want us to shut up, now. I can't even begin to break this down, it's just so full of wrong, it's almost like an onion article. I'm just going to laugh, and move on.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

124. I'm just going to laugh, and move on. Me too. I find myself doing that more and more these days

on DU3 and comparing it to The Onion as I move on. Yep.

[bravenak]

133. I'm over it.

This is too funny, but sad at the same time. It's like watching the 'The Jerk' in a way.

[JustAnotherGen]

179. +10000

[shaayecanaan]

118. So in other words...

Serena Williams, driving through Palm Springs in her Bentley, has a greater common interest with a poor Black kid in the ghetto than a poor White guy who is just about to have his house foreclosed?

Over to you.

[bravenak]

119. Yep.

She can't wash the black off.
The poor white guy can borrow a nice Armani suit and fit in in Beverly Hills, no questions asked. A black woman would have to be famous or well known to fit in with no questions asked. That's what's up.

[shaayecanaan]

120. You do realise

that the class interests of Serena Williams and the poor black guy are as inimical to each other as the class interests of a wealthy white guy and the poor white guy, right?

Do you think that Serena would be willing to give up the Bentley for radical social change, if it meant that most Black people were on a more even footing?

[bravenak]

123. Why should the black woman give up her bently for social change?

She already has to work twice as hard as a white woman would with her same abilities, to get the recognition she deserves. She doesn't benefit from white privilege, she has had to overcome white privilege in order to be known as the best in her field.

You notice how white people just call themselves American ehike the rest of us have to hyphenate, even the Native Americans aren't just called American.
White is considered default in this country, everyone else is a hyphenated American.

Black is a class in this country. The reason for this is slavery and Jim Crow. You could be a free black person in the north and be stolen and sold down south just because of the color of your skin. Blacks were being lynched even up until 81 when I was born just because of the color of their skin. Blacks are stopped and frisked along with Latinos much more than whites, because we are automatically criminalized because of the color of our skin. Blacks are more likely to be prosecuted for the same crime as a white person would for the same crime, just because of the color of our skin. Blacks are more likely than whites to be convicted of a crime whether we committed it or not, just because of the color of our skin. Blacks are less likely to be hired for a job than a white person of equal abilities just because of the color of our skin.


Serena Williams would have more to talk about with me, and feel more comfortable in my presence than she would with a wealth white male. Just because of the color of our skin.

[shaayecanaan]

130. Short answer: because she has far more money than she could ever possibly need...

and she made it by swinging a tennis racket, not exactly the most socially utilitarian work. Why should she get paid a thousand times more than a teacher or nurse and not even pay her fair share of tax?

She already has to work twice as hard as a white woman would with her same abilities, to get the recognition she deserves. She doesn't benefit from white privilege, she has had to overcome white privilege in order to be known as the best in her field.

I've heard exactly the same arguments from my father:- But we were refugees! We had to sell everything to start over in Africa! I had to borrow money to finance my first shipment of dry goods! I started off as a pants presser in Beirut, I had to press my own pants before work each day because I only had one pair!

She shouldn't have to part with her Bentley because she worked hard for it? How is that different from the rich white guy saying that he worked hard for his money?

It does sound like we're getting rather close to home. How much money do you make if you don't mind me asking?

[bravenak]

132. How much money do I make?

I qualify for Medicaid. What do you think about that?

Before she, the decendant of slaves gives up her wealth, the descendants of the slave masters/beneficiaries of slave labor and white privilege should give up theirs. Black people didn't invent racism in America, white folks did that. It's their responsibility to change the racism they inflict upon us. We've been trying to fix this fallout from eugenics and slavery for centuries. Now it's their turn to try to fix it. They benefit from it, we don't.


You thought I was rich, huh? That's funny. It's like the onion around here, for real.
I'm also not a college graduate.
I even dropped out of high school so that I could pay my rent after my stepdads unfortunate self inflicted death.
Anything I know, I pretty much taught it to myself.

I am a product of multi generational poverty. I know what government cheese tastes like, something you probably didn't know existed.
I know that the one dollar food stamps were white and brown.
I lived through the LA riots of 92.
I know what I'm talking about when it comes to racism in America, and I haven't even been to the worst places.

Look, I understand you have your blinders on when it comes to white privilege so I'm going to stop trying so hard to help you get it.
I will post a link to free literature from amazon Called Slave narratives. They will make you cry, and hopefully you will begin to understand the deep roots of racism in America.

You make me want to write a history of racism in America from my perspective to help those less fortunate than I gain an understanding of how we got where we are.

BTW, you shouldn't ask people how much money they make as it is vulgar In the extreme.

[shaayecanaan]

140. Us wealthy non-whites call that the "passenger mentality"...

It enables us to sleep the quiet sleep of the saved. Sure, I benefit from the status quo (says the Indian neurosurgeon) and some get a bum deal, but I've been the victim of racism too. And I didn't invent the status quo, so I am under no moral obligation to remedy it. Cheque please.

BTW, the promotion on Slave Narratives already finished. Luckily I saw it last week and downloaded it to my Kindle.

Dont believe me? The opening line is: "When the editor commenced the preparation of the following narrative..." (I had already read Frederick Douglass' autobiography).

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Shallow scrapes on the side of the roads filled with machete-hacked corpses. 8 million people died in the Third World War, a death toll equivalent to the First. I think the New York Times devoted about a grand total of about three column-inches to it. White people didnt care because it was Black people dying. Black people didnt care because it was Black people killing them.

[JI7]

142. you are posting a lot of racist shit

[El_Johns]

148. hmmmm....

[bravenak]

152. Slave narratives are a set of writings from the WPA.

http://www.amazon.com/Slave-Narratives-History-Interviews-Mississippi-ebook/dp/B004UKCEXC/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1393124889&sr=1-1&keywords=slave+narratives
You don't know what you are talking about.

[JustAnotherGen]

180. Thank you

For everything you've written on this thread.

You should write it out for financial gain. As usual - I greatly appreciate your ability to say "Hey! We've tried and tried! It's up to you to change things now!"

It's fair to throw the ball in that court. And something I bet even Serena Williams would agree with.

[JI7]

125. you do realize upper income blacks are regularly stopped by police and seen as suspicious at stores

it's just a regular part of life. there might be cases where they are famous and well known but many are not famous.

the fact people keep bringing up famous blacks to try to make a point says a lot.

because as others have posted the actual numbers tell a different story.

another thing is that if a famous minority doessomething bad it's usually seen as something against the community as a whole. you don't get that with whites like bieber.

[spooky3]

155. (a) what an interesting example and (b) you seem completely unaware of

Statistics 101.

Re: (a) There is a major tennis tournament played annually in Palm Springs. For years, Serena Williams has refused to play in it, because she and members of her family were treated so poorly, and in a racist manner, by some of the fans attending the tournament. Apparently some of the fans were not so swayed by her present social class and wealth that they were able to put aside their racism.

Re: (b) Class and race are somewhat correlated in the US, because of many complex factors. However, this correlation is far from 1.00, a perfect correlation. Therefore, it is fairly easy to separate the effects of actual class (or wealth, or income) and race (or of perceived class etc., and race), depending on how the researcher wants to define these terms, on whatever outcome variable interests you (let's say it is store clerk's speed of asking "may I help you?", but you can pick whatever you like). You are essentially arguing that the effects of class (etc.) would have a stronger weight in a regression analysis than would race (with other relevant variables controlled). You may even be arguing that race would have zero effect once class was entered as a predictor. Are you able to produce those studies?

A predictor does not have to have a 1.00 relationship with an outcome like the store clerk's speed in order for us to say that it is significantly related. Often there are multiple predictors that are significant. That means that multiple factors may affect an outcome.

And, only where there is a 1.00 relationship with the outcome would one expect that all whites were treated better than all blacks, for example. Social scientists NEVER observe 1.00 correlations in real life. I am not a race researcher, but I am aware that there are many studies that show race to have a significant (but not perfect) effect on various outcomes even when other variables are controlled or identical.

White privilege exists if being white is *significantly* related to whatever outcome we're discussing, once the effects of other important variables have been controlled ("holding everything else constant", "all other factors being the same", etc.). In a large sample, that coefficient does not have to be very high to be statistically significant, e.g., the regression coefficient for your SAT score relative to your college grade point average may be only .3, but with thousands of people in the sample, we can be very confident that that relationship in the population is greater than zero. But that is not the same as saying that SAT is the only important predictor of GPA.

So it is statistically ridiculous for people to refuse to acknowledge white privilege just because some, even many, white people are less well situated than some blacks.

[Number23]

106. lol You're "not sure" why I posted a response saying I "wasn't sure" why you posted this nonsensical

OP? That's rich.

So now, the issue is how people I identify as middle class, huh? I have a feeling that before this thread is over you'll have an issue with how people identify as people.

And yes, please do tell me how I am "attempting to whitewash black disadvantage" by not bolstering your tragically ignorant and borderline racist identifier that Barack Obama didn't have a "traditional" African American upbringing, which, judging by your insistence that economics trumps all, means that he wasn't throwing down 40s in the ghetto? Please illuminate me.

And when you and the 27 imbeciles that rec'd this tripe begin to understand the history of this country and begin to understand that race is the SINGLE GREATEST IDENTIFIER of access in American culture and always has been, then perhaps we will no longer have to suffer through OPs like this one.

Because as long as those of us in the Real World understand that race determines whether or not you get pulled over, regardless of whether you've committed a crime or not, that even massively educated blacks still face discrimination, that even world class black academics are still the victims of racism, that even middle class and even EXTREMELY wealthy blacks still face discrimination, even in ways that middle class whites don't, and as long as white people in 2014 believe that they experience racism more than blacks, then conversations about white privilege and the contortions people will go through to deny its existence will continue.

[bravenak]

113. +1

I wish I had the energy to say this.

[NOLALady]

134. +1000

[Number23]

136. You noticed the OP suddenly has nothing to say, huh?

This is what infuriates me about the "it's not race, it's class" crew. In addition to being astoundingly ignorant about the country's past and present, there is so much preoccupation with the Beyonces and Serena Williamses (see upthread). Because 2 or 20 or 100 black people are dazzlingly rich, racial discrimination doesn't exist or it's "not that big of a deal."

But show them some data that shows their "it's not race, it's class" spew to be the utter bunk that it is, then they suddenly lose their ability to read or respond.

More FACTS:

The study, conducted by the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the Urban Institute (a nonpartisan think tank in Washington) used a method called "pair testing." Two people — one person of color and one white person — called and then visited a real estate office to ask about an available property for rent or sale. Both of the pair testers told real estate agents that they had about the same income, assets and employment. Both testers were greeted politely and given appointments to look at properties. But whites were told about and shown more units. They were also more likely to be offered lower rent than their testing partners.

So the white couple with the same finances as the non-white couple not only got shown more units but were offered LOWER RENTS. And here's the kicker --

According to the study, the problem wasn't regional but national. http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/06/17/192730233/for-people-of-color-a-housing-market-partially-hidden-from-view

IF that is not WHITE PRIVILEGE then for God's sake, WHAT IS???

And this happened nationally. Not regional -- NATIONAL. Institutionalized. SYSTEMIC. Happens EVERYWHERE, not just in the South or the mid-West or wherever people have convinced themselves that The Racists live. It happens Everywhere in America.

A little-noticed study released last fall by the Pataki administration concluded that black and Hispanic people sentenced for minor felonies or misdemeanors in New York were treated more harshly than whites in similar circumstances. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/04/10/nyregion/a-racial-study-finds-differences-in-jail-sentences.html

Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002

Tougher sentences for THE SAME CRIMES. The only difference is the race of the perpetrators.

Researchers say they their new study suggests a reason why African Americans are overrepresented in prison. Black defendants are more likely to be sentenced to prison than whites, on average, but the racial gap is even more pronounced among some judges, suggesting that race is influencing the decision, the study found. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/race_matters_in_sentencing_study_finds/

This is NOT about class!!!! This is about RACE. And until that changes, discussions about white privilege are apt, are relevant and need to be had.

[bettyellen]

141. THIS!!! And thank you. I cannot believe this got 27 recs. Sounds like Limbaugh or O Keefe Lite.

[JI7]

143. it is, i wonder if people actually read it , i guess people just saw him claim to be a marxist

and felt they should rec it.

ignore all the comments excusing racism and blaming the victims of it.

[bettyellen]

151. I think it'ss knee jerk agreement with a dislike of the term- they'd be embarrassed if they read on

and encountered all the stupid fucking stereotypes he is spewing here. 27 people stepped in some racist shit here- but hey- they should have been looking out for it.

[shaayecanaan]

144. I made largely the same post about a week ago...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4538631

This is NOT about class!!!!

Of course not.

The fact that both poor Whites and poor Blacks are suffering from diminishing income levels, high rates of incarceration, worsening access to education and health and are twice as likely to die in Iraq and Afghanistan as people from middle to high income family backgrounds just has to be some kind of bizarre coincidence.

[JI7]

147. people have posted actual facts and numbers that there is racism and you want to deny it

[Number23]

153. That post has nothing to do with mine. And certainly nothing to do with your naive

OP.

The fact that both poor Whites and poor Blacks are suffering from diminishing income levels, high rates of incarceration, worsening access to education and health and are twice as likely to die in Iraq and Afghanistan as people from middle to high income family backgrounds just has to be some kind of bizarre coincidence.

I have absolutely no idea what this point has to do with anything I've posted or your own OP. In your haste to backpedal furiously, you are just throwing stuff out there and hoping it will stick.

The whole point of your OP was how "uncomfortable" you were with the concept of white privilege because of xxx including that the black middle class doesn't deserve any props and President Obama didn't come from a "traditional" (read: ghettofied) African American environment. Those were YOUR (ignorant and offensive) words.

And you are still sticking with the "poor whites" vs "poor blacks" when I have shown you -- REPEATEDLY now -- that blacks at EVERY SINGLE socio-economic level face discrimination that not even poor or middle class whites do. So your decision to stick with the class angle when you have been shown that class is not the issue shows a lack of ability to not only not understand what's right in front of you but a stubborn donkey-like determination to stick with a certain worldview or perspective no matter how flat out wrong it is. That is not the calling card of an intelligent person or anyone worth discussing such an important issue with.

[JustAnotherGen]

178. I dropped the rope on this thread yesterday

Glad you came back to it. I didn't see this post until just now. Very very well said my friend.

[Number23]

186. Thanks

I would say that this thread proves how terrible the school system is in America but considering this person takes great pains to let everyone know that they are not an American, it just goes to show that other countries have problems with denial too.

[JustAnotherGen]

199. Two days later

He doubles down http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024567537

I got lost at Marxism - but I'm guess what folks would call around a third way capitalist! Or maybe not? I just checked out the 'Who We Are' at that site Third Way site and the only black person is a woman who directs Administration. Go figure Number23.

[Number23]

204. Oh good grief.

Talk about learning absolutely nothing.

Kwassa's doing a good job but I'm sure the recs will be piling up soon regardless.

[spooky3]

156. +1, and pls see my post #155

I disagree, however, that class is not an important variable. There are lots of class-related problems in the US (and many other countries) as well.

But that does not in any way negate the reality that racism is a problem too.

[geardaddy]

203. Awesome response.

[Douglas Carpenter]

126. a very interesting perspective. But I do think the African-American experience is somewhat different

Also, there is so much emotion wrapped up in American racial consciousness - that it's one of those subjects where dispassionate observation is almost impossible.

[AverageJoe90]

160. That may be true.

And I think we can all agree that even though white folks may occasionally face personal racism(though it's actually rare), racism just doesn't affect us on the same level that it does People of Color; PoC have to face the remnants of structural racism as well.....and white folks don't.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

127. Thank you for such an in depth post about

This topic incorporating your own experiences.

[Bok_Tukalo]

131. As you can see from the responses ...

... on an ostensibly liberal website, it works.

[shaayecanaan]

150. Yeah...

I guess the prospect for working class people in America looks pretty shite. At least when this is the only alternative you have to voting for the Republicans.

I was reading this the other day - 40% of Black men in the UK have a white wife:-

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/how-many-black-men-have-white-partners-1307094.html

In the US, its far, far lower. Something like 6% of Black men are married to a white partner. I imagine that if half of all Black men were to marry white women in the US white conservatives wouldnt be too happy about it. But I doubt that the Black intelligentsia in the US would be too happy either. If half of all Black men are married to white women, its not black and white any more, but shades of grey. People might even get the notion in their heads that class struggle is more important.

[Number23]

154. Wow. Absolutely astonishing how proudly clueless you are

People might even get the notion in their heads that class struggle is more important.


Why? Because you say it is?

[JustAnotherGen]

181. +1000

I think I figured out who this guy is Number23. Remember the 'conqueror' guy from this summer? THAT's what this is reminding me of.

[bravenak]

184. You just proved my point.

And you have been writing some very racist things on this thread. I had thought better of you, I'm ashamed to find that I was wrong.

If not for the rampant racism in this country, the poor could get together and fight for change. But if one group of poor considers the other poor lesser thans, it won't happen. End the racism first, otherwise we'll never get to the class struggle.

Stop telling us what's more important. You know nothing, shaayecanaan.

You are full of information, but you have failed to gain an understanding of what that information means. You refuse to listen to what people who have experience are saying to you.

You angrily quoted very incorrectly the beginning of slave narratives to me, that was kinda funny.
You innapproriately assumed I was wealthy and asked how much I make.
You said I have a 'passenger mentality'. That's some ignorant mess, if I do say so myself. And I do. I do.


You have offended me all throughout this thread, you whose family made their fortune off the backs of black African gem miners, don't like the term White privilege,claim Marxism as your shield, should feel guilty.Y'all should spread your wealth among the miners who retrieved those gems, before you go off on a rant about not liking the term ' White Privilege' you prove white privilege.

[Harmony Blue]

139. Good post

lots of elitism is running rampant on DU lately.

[shaayecanaan]

146. I think a lot of bourgeois liberals misunderstand that term...

the working class accuse chattering liberals of elitism not so much because they are concerned about sexuality and abortion, gay marriage, etc, but because they obviously don't care about income and cost of living issues that the working class care about.

[AverageJoe90]

159. Not so sure about "elitism", to be honest.

Honestly, I think the biggest problem is just that a lot of people have developed a very specific and somewhat narrow view of how things are; this is particularly evident with "white privilege" being tossed around in many(though not all) cases.

[AverageJoe90]

158. A very interesting perspective here.

Too often, we forget just how important class *is* when discussing social disparities in the United States, or the troubles in Sub-Saharan Africa, etc., and that the .1% still does, quite often, use race to divide-and-conquer us even today.

It can also be pointed out, too, that the use of "white privilege", while well-intended in many cases, has, sadly, mostly failed as a teaching tool.....and may have even backfired, to boot.

Sadly, though, it seems that some haven't a clue about either truth just yet.

[1StrongBlackMan]

187. Two comments ...

First,

It can also be pointed out, too, that the use of "white privilege", while well-intended in many cases, has, sadly, mostly failed as a teaching tool.....and may have even backfired, to boot.

It's difficult to "teach" when the student refuses to even consider the lesson.

Secondly,

Too often, we forget just how important class *is* when discussing social disparities in the United States, or the troubles in Sub-Saharan Africa, etc., and that the .1% still does, quite often, use race to divide-and-conquer us even today.

Consider:

People of Color (and women) have interests beyond those of white males. While our interests intersect at the income inequity issue, they diverge after that.

As I have said before: our helping you accomplish your ends, still leaves us wanting. And history gives us plenty of reason to believe that once we help you accomplish your ends, you will jettison us ... as the status quo, with respect to race/gender/sexual orientation relationships, hasn't changed ... we just have a different white guy to deal with.

[AverageJoe90]

188. Two responses.

It's difficult to "teach" when the student refuses to even consider the lesson.

I'm afraid it's a lot more complicated than that, my friend. There are many people out there who would be willing to understand the truth but they become confused and completely bewildered, etc. by this particular terminology, particularly those who have had hard lives; so it's not so much refusing to consider, it's having a genuinely hard time understanding the angle from which it is addressed. That's not their fault, either.

And this is coming from a guy who used to believe in this stuff myself.....so I had to learn this truth the hard way.

Consider:

People of Color (and women) have interests beyond those of white males. While our interests intersect at the income inequity issue, they diverge after that.

I won't deny that there's some truth to that. But it doesn't really change what I pointed out, either.

[1StrongBlackMan]

189. "Used to believe" ...

what stuff? What did you learn?

To your second response ... wouldn't it be a great strategy to show as a sign of "good faith" for you (white male) do what you call on People of Color (and women) to do: put your interests on hold in order to concentrate on our interest? You know that you will have us as an ally against the 1%, because our being affected by the 1% has not changed.

[AverageJoe90]

190. .....

what stuff?

"White privilege", "Racism is exclusive to white folks", pretty much the works.

wouldn't it be a great strategy to show as a sign of "good faith" for you (white male) do what you call on People of Color (and women) to do: put your interests on hold in order to concentrate on our interest?

I have a better idea; how about we focus on everything(race, gender, class, etc.) at the same time? That way, everybody wins.

[1StrongBlackMan]

192. So ...

you no longer believe that there is such an animal as white privilege or that Racism is exclusive to white folks? Then, maybe you can cite to an example where non-whites (and/or women) have systematically disenfranchised, or denied opportunities and /or restrained the freedoms of white folks?

It should be easy to do. And the lack of examples, along with an acknowledgement of the scores of examples of whites have systematically disenfranchised, or denied opportunities and /or restrained the freedoms of People of Color, would be the definition of white privilege. No?

I have a better idea; how about we focus on everything(race, gender, class, etc.) at the same time? That way, everybody wins.

I would agree; but that's not the lecture that People of Color are routinely subjected to ... rather, we are told race is the tool that the 1% uses to divide the 99%, while arguing we focus OUR efforts on class issues. Just saying ...

[AverageJoe90]

194. Not all racism is systemic, though.

It can be pointed out that *interpersonal* racism is not limited to any one group. Even the Southern Poverty Law Center agrees. Here is part of their overview on black separatist groups:

"Black separatists typically oppose integration and racial intermarriage, and they want separate institutions — or even a separate nation — for black people in America.....

Although the Southern Poverty Law Center recognizes that much black racism in America is, at least in part, a response to centuries of white racism, it believes racism must be exposed in all its forms. White groups espousing beliefs similar to black separatists would be considered clearly racist. The same criterion should be applied to all groups regardless of their color......

If a white group espoused similar beliefs with the colors reversed, few would have trouble describing it as racist and anti-Semitic. Although the racism of a group like the Nation may be relatively easy to understand, if we seek to expose white hate groups, we cannot be in the business of explaining away the black ones."

So there we go. I dunno about you, but IMO, I'd personally hold the SPLC as a higher authority on ethnic issues than some random pasty Tumblr college radical in Las Vegas(which seems to represent a rather disporportionate number of the most fervent supporters of "white privilege" terminology), you know what I mean?

[1StrongBlackMan]

195. There is no such animal as "Interpersonal racism" ...

only interpersonal bigotry/prejudice.

Bigotry and prejudice, when combined with institutional power equals racism that cannot be ignored or avoided by the affected class(es). Bigotry and prejudice without institutional power equals individuals acting poorly that can be ignored or avoided by the affected class(es).

[Blue_Tires]

161. A few decent points, but you're kind of all over the place...

(for the record I'm African-American)...

And your last paragraph is WAAYYYY off the mark, bordering somewhere between "condescending" and "flat-out insulting"...You're making some Grand Canyon-sized assumptions and generalizations about something you don't know as much about as you think you do...

[JustAnotherGen]

169. Be careful Blue

Your elitism about the way things are and narrow minded perspective is running over.

[Chakab]

165. Confused about white privilege?

Here's crash course:

[Starry Messenger]

167. What a hot mess.

This country was founded on exploitation, which found its perfect expression in the racist oppression of black chattel slavery. Lumping poor whites and poor blacks into the same category ignores the history of which group was torn from their culture and has had to play catch up on a never-even playing field.

Racism in the US is a function of our classism, and in every metric that matters, the working class of the US is most oppressed among the African-Americans.

Are there poor whites? Yes, it's a real problem. But real unity will take place when poor whites ally with poor blacks to make social change. At the moment, there is still a substantial subset of poor whites who feel that their ticket to the ruling class is arriving any day.

[catbyte]

177. The OP's last paragraph doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Obama didn't grow up with his father

in any meaningful way. He was essentially raised by his mother & grandparents. He saw his dad, what, twice?

I am Ojibwe who grew up in northern Michigan and have seen White privilege all of my life. Just because the OP doesn't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[JustAnotherGen]

182. Thank you thank you thank you

For stepping into this muckety muck and speaking up.

[catbyte]

183. Thank you, JAG. My mom lived through Jim Crow laws in northern Michigan when she was

growing up and I saw it to a much lesser extent, but discrimination was there nevertheless. Local businesses had to allow "Injuns" into them after the 1964 Civil Rights Act was passed. I was 9 years old then & don't remember not being able to go to places, but I have seen pictures of signs prohibiting Native Americans from entering public places & my mom certainly remembered. It seems no matter where you are, the minority population--whatever it happens to be--is unfortunately discriminated against by the White population. It's not opinion, sadly it's a fact.

[Quayblue]

193. i'm having a hard time respecting this post

And ya know what, I dont, screw it..Particularly since you've mentioned the mining of gems in Africa by your family.

if you cannot realize the exploitation of African Human Beings and resources had a lot to do with why racism and (and perhaps thus) the mind-chess of classism exists today, then there is much to be learned on your behalf.

I shall leave it at that.

[kwassa]

196. Your insight into the racial politics of America is highly flawed.

Poor African Americans and poor whites in the US are kept poor for the same reasons.

This is the crux of your error, in a single sentence. You don't understand poverty, and you don't understand the history of poverty in the US. You deny the historical nature of it, if you understand it all. You don't understand how poverty is generationally repeated. Poor blacks and poor whites are poor for very different reasons.

Your notion of labor history is also illusive, as you don't understand the racial exclusiveness of early American labor unions, which is not surprising that as a foreigner you have little knowledge about American history.

In 1902 W.E.B. Du Bois, the influential black spokesman and historian, found that 43 national unions had no black members, and 27 others barred black apprentices, keeping membership to a minimum. Du Bois spoke against both "the practice among employers of importing ignorant Negro-American laborers in emergencies" and "the practice of labor unions of proscribing and boycotting and oppressing thousands of their fellow toilers."38

These policies of the unions were self-defeating. By refusing to admit blacks, they were assuring that there remained a group of workers that employers could turn to in order to bring down wages or to apply pressure during strikes. It wasn't until later in the twentieth century that union leaders began to look beyond their own prejudices to see that solidarity across racial lines made sense.

http://www.shmoop.com/history-labor-unions/race.html

[JustAnotherGen]

197. Access to highly paid

Trades lifted people out of poverty. If one was barred from the trade - one couldn't just pull their bootstraps over ones head.

This is an excellent FACT you provided.

[Romulox]

200. I'd be interested to hear you expand on the "very different reasons" whites and blacks are poor. nt

[LeftishBrit]

198. I think there is a possible difference here between the USA and other countries

In the UK, I would tend to agree, that though there is quite a bit of disgusting racism, the biggest barriers and disadvantages are based on class, not race.

However, I think in America with its long history of slavery followed by Jim Crow, race is more of a key issue.

As I think I've said before, I prefer the British phrase 'institutional racism' to 'white privilege', as the latter can imply that ALL white people are privileged, which is obviously not true.

As regards your last paragraph: by the time someone becomes a politician, they are generally by definition upper middle class if not frankly rich, whatever their original background. A partial exception used to be those Labour MPs who came to Parliament through positions of trade union leadership; but these hardly exist any more. Usually they don't represent poorer people too well, especially as really poor people are also less likely to vote, and in America are sometimes actively prevented from doing so. (I believe that Australia has compulsory voting for all -does that make any difference from this point of view?) A majority of politicians have no experience of poverty, and the minority that do, have managed to rise in social class and too often think that anyone can if they choose to; e.g. Norman 'Get on your bike' Tebbit .