General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn defense of George Zimmerman.
I see people doing just that while being careful to claim they're not.
Anti-OWS, anti-union, pro-gun, defending Zimmerman; how many conservatives post to this forum?
sikorsky
(96 posts)The guy has been convicted in the media without so much as a formal charge. I can't believe that's what "progressives" actually want...but maybe they do now.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Cops sat on their assess and did nothing. I'm delighted that the media has gotten involved. Without the media, Zimmerman would surely escape justice. At least there's a chance he can still rot in jail for the rest of his miserable life. You should be happy about that fact.
Regardless, his family should sue not only Zimmerman, but the entire Sanford Police Dept.
What did the cops do wrong? Pretty much everything:
- No drug or alcohol test on Zimmerman even though that's standard procedure
- They let him keep the gun that night...no test for ballistics obviously
- The police "corrected" witnesses to fit Zimmerman's side of the story
- Police said Zimmerman was the one screaming even though 3 witnesses thought it was Trayvon and the 911 tapes clearly sound like a kid screaming for help.
- The police never got thorough statements from witnesses such as Mary Cutcher at the scene. She tried to contact police to give a more detailed statement, but the cops blew her off.
- They let Trayvon's body sit in the morgue for 3 days as "John Doe" even though they had his phone and could have contacted his parents or someone else using his phone.
- They never questioned the girl who was on the phone with him right before he was shot. No investigation into that.
- They told Trayvon's dad that Zimmerman had a "squeaky clean" record even though he was arrested for assault/battery.
Zimmerman is going down.
sikorsky
(96 posts)Will you extend the same courtesy to the accused in this case?
http://www.newson6.com/story/17171733/female-victim-in-home-invasion-dies-at-tulsa-hospital-police-name-suspect
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)The cops never even arrested him.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Zimmerman? Not so much. At least, not yet.
However, the pressure is changing that. The media pressure is working, clearly.
U mad?
Ya, u mad.
sikorsky
(96 posts)without any trial. You surely acknowledge that, and I might remind you that in the case I mentioned, going the 'other way', a lot of people have already convicted THAT kid, in their own minds, without any trial (yet). Yes, Mr. Martin was executed without benefit of legal counsel or trial, that does not mean others should unless you want to devolve our society into complete chaos.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Pressure will continue to be brought to bear until it happens. This cannot stand. Zimmerman cannot walk away without being arrested and facing trial.
The cops didn't do their jobs and failed to arrest him. The police work was sloppy, corrupt and obstructed justice IMO. Now it's up to citizens and media folks to make sure the trial happens.
Don't like it? Tough.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)I can't believe how many people are ready to fry this guy without giving him due process. I am pretty sure he is guilty from
what the media has reported but I like not having hysterical mobs running around ready to nail someone without due process.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)That's all we want.
But there's no denying this would have been swept under that rug had it not been for the massive outrage.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)...like a three day old pile of regurgitated fish guts.
Why there must be an independent investigation, not just of Zimmerman's actions, but the actions surrounding this incident by the members of the Sanford PD.
Why there must be a trial if not multiple trials.
I hope Cali D is right and Zimmerman does go down. AFTER a scrupulously fair trial.
Strikes me, you yourself KNOW that Zimmerman can't be found anything but guilty, and you're worried about what that might mean for SYG laws.
belcffub
(595 posts)then that is confirmation that the law works... and Zimmerman had no protection under that law and the local PD did not understand that law... I am more worried if it goes to trail and he if found innocent.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)But this man should be arrested, because they've got probable cause to arrest him.
crunch60
(1,412 posts)evidence just for starters. I hope a thorough investigation if forthcoming. This "stand your ground" law, was created by asshat Jeb Bush.
How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
http://www.thenation.com/blog/166978/how-alec-took-floridas-license-kill-law-national
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)So far, that hasn't been fast in coming.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)You are aware that only the legal system can convict, right? You seem to have the silly notion that some people chatting on the internet can convict a person, that's incredibly silly.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)An investigation by the State Atty was being done before the DOJ decided to get involved.
The case and the investigation is progressing.
But without defending Zimmerman, who I think targeted the teen because he thought he looked suspicious, I have seen in DU a dangerous mindset to "prosecute" the man without so much as a formal investigation OR a decision to prosecute by the D.A. Some posters want Zimmerman to go straight to a trial and bypass the rest of the legal process.
That's what has been disturbing. Zimmerman certainly seems guilty, and there doesn't seem to be any doubt he pursued the teen. But all the facts aren't out yet, and there has to be a formal investigation.
That is how the legal process works. And that's a good thing. The heat and passion of the public should not determine whether someone is guilty (although I guess we all do decide that in high profile cases - I mean, who did NOT think that the guy from Holland or Denmark hadn't killed Natalie Holloway? But even in that case, we had him on tape saying he threw her in the ocean.)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)at approx. 7.20 PM and he was pronounced dead at 7.30 PM. Afther the family reported their son missing (not sure if that was the night of the shooting or the following morning) the cops showed the father a photo of his son on the 27th late that morning. So less than a day, although no thanks to any efforts on the part of the PD. And he was sent to the morgue as a John Doe despite the fact that he had a cell phone which could have been used to identify him.
But the 'three days' is incorrect, just don't want false information to be jumped on by the defenders of this murder and used to discredit those hoping for justice.
Edited to correct timeline of shooting and death.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)uppityperson
(115,674 posts)wrong. I want him charged and to go to trial. There was NO investigation and THAT is a huge problem for most of us.
You do have it right that he hasn't been charged. You miss the fact that that is the problem. No investigation. No charges. A problem.
Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)The police let this man go! They didn't even investigate anything in a proper manor.
frylock
(34,825 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)He should be arrested... and THEN he can have his fair trial.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Zimmerman has not been tried nor convicted outside of the metaphorical. And as the metaphorical holds little to no legal weight, any perceived "convictions" also hold no legal weight or consequence.
Fair trials are conducted in courts of law. Discussions take place on Discussion Boards... these are two wholly and separate things.
That being said, I imagine that there are indeed, non-legal consequences to shooting an unarmed youth; which may allow us an additional reason not to shoot innocent pedestrians-- I do not see that additional layer of protection by social mores as a bad thing, however I do realize many people may perceive public outrage at the shooting of an innocent youth to be... bad?
Post Script-- the vast majority of people on this board do indeed wish Zimmerman gets a jury trial in front of twelve of his peers; but conflating a trial with public opinion does little service to any validity you may be attempting to illustrate.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)he just couldn't contain himself.
appleannie1
(5,028 posts)Son of Gob
(1,502 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)That kid would still be alive if that asshole hadn't targeted him.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)He's a killer...but homicide =/= murder. The latter term has a rather specific set of definitions, and until he is convicted of the crime of murder, they don't apply. Do I think he's a murderr? Damn straight I do...but what I think is irrelevant to whether he actually is or not.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Thank you or the AD sig line; love it. Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread.
Son of Gob
(1,502 posts)pennylane100
(3,425 posts)His innocence or guilt can only be determined WHEN HE IS CHARGED.
He chased down and killed someone in spite of being warned to to follow the victim. He was not tested for drugs or alcohol or traces of how many shots he fired and was allowed to go home WITH HIS GUN. His young victim was, however, tested for drugs and alcohol and a background check run on him.
Instead of suggesting we wait for justice to be served, you might want to ask he has not been charged, why was he not drug checked and why has his record as a trouble maker not make the police just a little bit more curious.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)to justify an indictment.
Knowing in your gut someone is guilty is different than proving it.
How could NONE of the neighbors not bothered to peep out the window and witness anything? Seriously? No one?
peacebird
(14,195 posts)Might explain some of the posts....
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)sikorsky
(96 posts)right to a fair trial. Sadly, I see some here who do not. I have probably come to the wrong place, it sounds like a Star Chamber, not a progressive, Democratic site.
uppityperson
(115,674 posts)If you are happy that there was NO investigation, if you do not want him charged, are happy that even with the evidence brought forward after all the media attention, if you are fine with him simply walking off without being charged, then yes. You do support him.
sikorsky
(96 posts)think you or anyone else here does either. None of us were present when the killing took place.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)imagine what my response to you would be if I wasn't choosing my words carefully.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)You don't even have to type it.
+1 for the un-posted post using plain English without fear of deletion
groundloop
(11,482 posts)There's a dead teenager for starters. There's the 911 call where Zimmerman was clearly told not to follow the victim, yet he did. And if you'll wake up and smell the crap, the cops tried to sweep this case under the rug. How the hell could they let Zimmerman go home WITH HIS GUN after he shot and killed someone. That gun is evidence in a death, now it's probably not admissible in court because there's no chain of custody.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)...since the police never confiscated the weapon. If police today arrest Zimmerman and find the gun, ballistics can still match it to the victim if the bullets were recovered.
crunch60
(1,412 posts)peacebird
(14,195 posts)Of "justice" in Florida are vigilantes who want to hang Zimmerman. When what I see here is folks who want him tried. We believe the police handling of this incident is appalling.
The tapes present a very different picture than what the police originally alleged, perhaps that is why they were tried so hard not to release them.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)is that there was NO investigation into this travesty. An unarmed child was gunned down by a vigilante and the police did nada. That smells of overt racism. I.E.: a black kid was killed. NO BIG DEAL. Move on, nothing to see here.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)...as much as saying he received kid-gloves treatment from the local police.
I mean, a black 17-year-old is shot dead and the white guy whose gun did the killing walks freely. No arrest; no questions; no interrogation...nothing.
It took a national outcry for an investigation to commence...
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)He's so guilty it isn't even funny. That's a fact, I have the right to state that fact, I will keep on stating that fact and whoever tells me I shouldn't state that fact can take a long walk off a short pier.
Straw Man
(6,596 posts)You just threw our legal system out the window and substituted the whim of a random individual for the presumption of innocence and the burden of proof. It must be nice to be omniscient.
Investigation, charge, trial, verdict. That's how it's supposed to work. Time to get the ball rolling.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)...
...
...
Wow.
I didn't know I was THAT powerful.
.
frylock
(34,825 posts)the preponderance of evidence certainly shows it. the obvious police coverup only serves to solidify my belief.
mysuzuki2
(3,521 posts)Yes,we should be open to the possibility that there will be new information that will exonerate Zimmerman. That is theortically possible. But when you have a cop wannabe with a history of violent confrontations who calls the police 50 times in the past year, who ignores police instructions to stop following the "suspect" and who "patrols" with a loaded gun , a kid armed with a can of ice tea ends up dead as a result the police fail to do even a cursory investigation and allow a possible murderer to go home with his weopon, one cannot fail to conclude that no one gives a shit when some bozo kills a 17 year old kid. What progresives also want is for people to stop thinking that just because they are carrying a weopon that it allows them to use it. What progressives want is for people to stop shooting each other.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Great way to lure the trolls into one spot too
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)What you've just done is basically no different than the Bush administration calling people who were against the war unAmerican. It's a broad, blanket smear intended to discredit the opinions of anyone who feels differently than you do.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that Zimmerman committed either manslaughter or murder in the second degree, but that's no reason to shit on the opinions of people who feel differently or who take a skeptical wait-and-see attitude.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)...to take that advice.
What it took though was thousands and then millions upon millions of people ALL automatically reaching pretty much the same conclusion based upon the facts presented to the familiy/public in the begining AND at every fresh revelation since. There are no credible ALTERNATE SCENARIOS with any traction whatsoever being voiced. Objections are technical or irrelevantly peripheral to the central premise. AND the loudmouths like Rush are virtually silent on the matter instead of indulging in their usual trashing of the victim. Even Free Republic's worst are for the most part very sensibly keeping their mouths shut.
We know what happened in general. Details are irrelevant.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)No sense of irony or hypocrisy here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=443168
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)just fine here if you call yourself a Democrat, the line is too blurred by blue dog corporatists and free-trading tax-cutters for anything to be done about it.
Especially now that the new Dems have a president in office.
How many is hard to say. Depends on where you draw the line, 90's republican policies (now rehashed by dem leadership) only earns a centrist title. If you don't count them and go more conservative there are less, but if you count them, at least half conservatives post to this forum.
randome
(34,845 posts)...are all guilty of being conservatives, huh? Nice.
Putting OWS in a thread about a kid's killing?
Priceless.
Not.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Last edited Wed Mar 21, 2012, 10:39 PM - Edit history (1)
prejudices and policies.
You can't just re-brand conservatism and fool anyone but yourself and the gullible. Even if such a Conservative parades around pretending to be progressive because they like this party more than the conservative one that has gone completely crazy (and perhaps won't take one in anymore).
randome
(34,845 posts)I am a lifelong Democrat. My father is gay and happily with someone. You, however, have a naive view of your fellow DUers that verges on being childish.
If you insist on seeing things in only 2 colors -black and white- I would suggest you get your vision checked.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)If you don't know how to address me then don't.
Re-reading my post it appears you mistake this to mean you, It was meant to describe conservatives in the party, there are many.
Social issues can be the only thing that separates such people from Republican conservatives. (just think Newt on the economy but pro marriage equality, there are some blue dogs like that)
I see many colors, only a few are available in our system, of them the two largest groups are conservatives and progressives.
I fail to see how a conservative view or law becomes another color simply because the same view or law came not from Newt in 93 but a Dem in 2009. One cannot change red to blue because you prefer to see blue when red is in front of you. In my opinion, re-branding a color name from red to blue is the childish thing.
But then I have known the blue since the sixties and know what it actually looks like.
I am sorry if you took this personally, perhaps there is something within that you need to look closer at, perhaps you are in many ways a conservative and that is why you take it so personally.
I apologize that the only way you knew how to take my post is as some sort of attack against you personally, it truly was not meant as such.
randome
(34,845 posts)Saying 'perhaps you are in many ways a conservative'. Nice try at passive-aggressiveness.
Doesn't work.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)that's all.
Why else would you take it as about you and you alone?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Why would you mention that?
randome
(34,845 posts)...with Democratic ideals as opposed to Republican 'ideals'.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)If you are, in fact, anti-union, anti-OWS and defending Zimmerman, you certainly have the conservative credentials nailed down.
YOU came in to defend those with positions that differ, and that is fine. If you don't hold each of the conservative positions listed in the OP, it isn't about you. You seem to not defend Zimmerman, yet take such offense due to your loathing of OWS that you had to chime in. It's funny to me.
randome
(34,845 posts)I got me some groupies!
morningfog
(18,115 posts)If you answered no to any of those, the OP was not directed at you. Me thinks you doth protest too much.
Honestly, I have no idea, nor do I care, how you post on any of the other subjects. I do remember how anti-OWS you are though.
randome
(34,845 posts)It shows disrespect to the original subject of this thread. And it's disrespectful to DUers, as well.
If you want to start a thread on OWS, go to the Activism forum. I will refrain from responding to any other posts that don't have anything to do with Trayvon Martin.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)lib_wit_it
(2,222 posts)frogmarch
(12,143 posts)courts of law. Although I want to know all the facts about the case, I am not a court of law.
Based on what I know now, I consider Zimmerman guilty.
sikorsky
(96 posts)No matter the ethnicity of the accused. Bah.
frogmarch
(12,143 posts)I will base my decision on the evidence presented in court.
DU is not a court of law, and I'm not on a jury sitting in judgement of Zimmerman. My opinion is that he is guilty.
Really people...
(7 posts)right or wrong if the guy felt like his life was in danger he followed the law! Last I checked I wouldnt want to be arrested for using the rights my state has given me.
KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)The authors of Florida's controversial "stand your ground" self-defense law say George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for shooting Trayvon Martin, reports the Miami Herald.
"He has no protection under my law," former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper.
It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/
morningfog
(18,115 posts)You shouldn't be surprised if someone calls you a racist apologist.
frylock
(34,825 posts)can't swing a dead cat around here this week without hitting some n00b overly concerned with zimmerman's due process. go figure.
Response to Really people... (Reply #41)
Post removed
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)...when you use a rationale like that to justify murdering a kid out for a walk.
Really people...
(7 posts)this country has only began to see the bad.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Really people...
(7 posts)There are way more like me than you think!
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Now go back to your cave.
DianaForRussFeingold
(2,552 posts)I think you have the wrong attitude--this country has only begun to see the good!
aikoaiko
(34,113 posts)There has to be reason -- some unprovoked behavior that warrants a reasonable belief that grave injury is imminent.
Really.
added:
Florida Law: 3)?A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
If Zimmerman chased him, cornered him, threatened him, or physicallly made contact with Trayvon who was not committing a crime, then Zimmerman was very likely not acting lawfully and this law should not offer him any protection. We need a full investigation of the facts.
uppityperson
(115,674 posts)followed the law. So, shoot because he's black is ok with you if I fear people with dark skin?
That is the question, did he feel his life was in danger. Why would he follow someone, stalk them, if he felt his life was in danger?
EmeraldCityGrl
(4,310 posts)you have the dubious honor of being the first person
I have ever sent an alert or complaint about.
Congrats knuckledragger
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Are you behind a law like that one?
KG
(28,748 posts)plenty.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)As I have been lectured and chastised to supposedly believe (up thread).
I agree with you, red does not become blue because color blind people think it is, and conservatism does not become progressive simply because it comes from the mouth of a new Dem.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)It is just a fact. A sad fact but a fact nonetheless.
Paladin
(28,173 posts)In the weeks leading up to the 2008 election, there was a poll in the DU Gungeon, concerning likely voting action. 45% of the respondents indicated their intention to vote Republican on the basis of gun policy. I've always suspected that the 45% total was on the low side of actual results....
Kali
(54,990 posts)is anybody who disagrees with any issue you decree important a conservative? is there a list with points somewhere? best 2 out of 3, 3 out of 5? 9 out of 10?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Kali
(54,990 posts)Quantess
(27,630 posts)there are indeed democrats who are yesterday's republicans.
Are they Democrats? Sure.
Are they progressives / liberals? No.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Quantess
(27,630 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Problem solved, including "due process" according to our AG.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Perhaps they can work together on a project (if he is not so afraid of Holder that he has to protect himself sans due process leaving the meeting one shy of a collaboration)
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)It is an election year and this has gone viral.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Hell, unlike that little boy, he has much to actually fear from Holder, and it it has nothing to do with melanin content.
(that is if Holder seeks Justice in this case which appears likely)
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)I think what is going to come out of this is a better definition of when you can stand your ground and defend yourself.
If you go looking for a fight and you find one you can't claim self-defense, even if you didn't start the actual fight.
And that's what it looks like happened with Zimmerman.
He went looking for a fight. We don't know who started the actual physical confrontation, but it doesn't matter. Zimmerman went looking for a confrontation, and he got one. Even if Martin was beating his ass, Zimmerman started the entire chain of events.
And he knew it, or should have known it, as soon as he stepped out of his car.
Bake
(21,977 posts)But SYG or no (and KY has SYG), I wouldn't chase somebody down and provoke a confrontation. If you ask me, based on what we know at this point, Zimmerman is guilty as hell. But let's HAVE A TRIAL and find out.
Bake
arthritisR_US
(7,253 posts)arrested and charged first. Hopefully that will happen with the higher investigations.
arthritisR_US
(7,253 posts)being that Zimmerman is guilty of murder and at the same time the necessity of due process.