This Gender War bullshit at DU must stop

[Pretzel_Warrior]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Purveyor (a host of the General Discussion forum).

I know...META!!!!!

IBTL

Don't be distracted. DU wasn't set up to prosecute war, war crimes, truth and reconciliation re: men and women who are progressive but who want to argue and talk past one another.

We are, for the most part, on the same team. There are many little debates people ate blowing way out of proportion on the subject.

[kcr]

1. Hide thread

If you think they're just petty little debates being blown out of proportion, and you have no interest in seeing it, then I bet hide thread would especially be valuable for you.

[RC]

153. No. Stop the gender wars here on DU.

When a certain few people keep throwing the same known flame baits in the face of the rest of DU, the real remedy is to stop the flame bating.
Most of the people here on DU, a supposedly liberal web site, are being treated as if they are the problem this group and their enablers are railing against.
Between bouts, DU settles down and becomes much more civilized... Till the next in your face of 'how dare you disagree' OP is posted by a member of this group, then it starts all over again.
If the purpose is to distract DU from its founding purpose of a safe haven for Liberals, Progressive, and other Democrats and exposing and countering the bullshit of the Republicans, this group is doing a very good job of distracting and even derailing DU from its founding mission.

We are not your enemy. This group and their enablers are the antagonists. Don't be taking it out on the rest of us.

[kcr]

156. RIght. Those "certain few people' are the only ones who ever post flame bait.

The rest of DU would live on in complete harmony if it weren't for them!

It's so cute. It's like listening to children who believe in Santa Clause.

[RC]

168. This group is by far the highest profile group in any conflicts here.

And they are usually the ones in the middle of any conflicts, aided by their enablers.
So don't give me that black and white excuse for for defending them. You know better.

[seabeyond]

170. yes... when talking about womens issues we speak out. and when being called out by fellow duers...

we speak out. just kinda our thing.

the issue would be?

[kcr]

171. Or the one most likely to get blamed for conflict

Again. This fantasy that conflict would just go away if it weren't for this group is amusing. Just off the top of my head I can think of many topics that cause lots of conflict. There's this little topic of discussion that caused the board to exist in the first place. You think the gender wars are bad? Primaries! You can't handle the gender wars? Just leave town.

[RC]

183. The difference is This is a political site. Conflicts are not going away, because DU is a very

diverse site.

But in the gender wars, anyone outside the group, that disagrees with them is treated as the enemy, They are put down, insulted, even attacked and piled on, regardless of the facts and truth in dissension.
I have no intention of leaving town. Someone has to speak up against bullying disruptors and I am only one of those who dares speak truth to well known harassers.
So yeah, I can see where you'd like me to shut up and be quiet. The rest of DU is not the enemy and should not be treated as such.
That is what I object to by this group.

[kcr]

188. Oh, so now it's everyone behaves and only discusses politics

and then it's just this miserable little group of people causing problems? Right...

[RC]

198. This seems to be fitting...

For that "miserable little group of people causing problems", as you call them.

[kcr]

205. Thank you for providing an example. There's no gender wars

There's just posters like you doing exactly what you just did there. And when any one responds to it? Gender Wars! And then rabble rabble rabble about that group again.

[RC]

208. Denial for the win!

Sure, whatever floats your boat.

[seabeyond]

215. lmFao. omg. you talk about others, but ANYOE not agree with you, and insult, accusation is

immediately hurled. i guess you can put krc with all the rest of the oh so small group (that grows leaps and bounds) of bullies that will not let you express your opinion.

what a fuckin hoot

but i imagine the silliness of it will escape you, once again.

[kcr]

243. The bigger that list gets, the better

[seabeyond]

249. I tell you woman, half the people on this board is on this list

of very small vocal voices or whatever. So many had me in giggles this morning. I think one mad in a zillion giggles. That is not bad. Have a good day. I gotta turn on the music and get to work.

[LanternWaste]

298. An accurate example was given, regardless of your misuse of the word "denial"

An accurate example was given, regardless of how one rationalizes otherwise by misusing the word "denial"

[Voice for Peace]

266. It's simply not realistic, or effective, to blame a whole group.

Feminists have not insulted or bullied me, personally, here.
So I can not agree with you.
But I have experienced bullying during many other discussions
that have nothing to do with feminists or women, and
everything to do with a group(s) of egomaniacal know-it-alls.

At least with the feminist issue, I see some background and
justification for the anger many women feel. I know it is
not often directed effectively -- anger rarely is. But it reminds
me always that we have a world full of wounded people and
we need to love each other and be kind and be understanding
and not point fingers, and clean up our own acts.

Think of this: a child is abused, sexually psychologically.
They are small and helpless. The rage is dormant. The
injustice is not understood by the child. They internalize
a ton of shame, self-hate, self-blame. Many women are
now defending themselves against things that happened
a long time ago -- but also a society that has allowed abuse
victims to be silenced and punished. I was one of those.
If somebody directs their anger at me, I duck. I will not
take it personally. On the other hand, if I am attacked
because I have found alternative medicine works better
for me than the other stuff - this is an attack I just don't
understand. And those are some of the nastiest.


If I say one unkind word, ever,
to anybody, I'm not in a position to judge any bully.
Must clean up my own act.
And then anger comes when it is needed, not otherwise.

[seabeyond]

163. so a couple of our "flamebaits", one had over 250 rec, another had over 100 rec. how would that

justify you saying that it was not of du interest?

you might want to check out how well received our posts are. firstly. just so you can be accurate in your criticism of us.

and ya.... the board had settled down, until someone wanted to play. they had a couple threads going to start a battle, and finally, one caught on. i do not see you in their calling their ass out about purposely causing problems, which the actually said their intent was.

the issue RC. you want to be seen as fair and balanced. but you are not.

you call us emotionally damaged and have repeatedly said we should be kicked off du, hof should be shut down.

so, i reject your position of fair and balanced.

[RC]

174. Links please.

Please post the links where I have said what you are saying I said. Links, not out of context copy and past excerpts.
Links, so everyone can see for themselves.

You are calling me out for not calling people out? Riiighht....

[seabeyond]

178. you haev not spent a lot of your time saying hof needs to be shut down? a lot in meta. or calling

for some of us to be banned?

no. i am not hunting your posts. you and i both know. and i know you will say it again in the future. so people will have a heads up, in later posts. it is too common a theme.

link saying we are damaged? well, that has been a particular theme of yours. you and i both know. and undoubtedly you will say again in the future so a heads up.

links to the Ops that are our supposed flamebaits that have high recommends? you can find those. i can give you a couple titles if you are really interested.

[libodem]

234. Amen!

[sabrina 1]

306. Add another 'amen' to that ....

[seaglass]

236. Well last week it started on Monday with this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4473513

and ended on Friday with this obvious flamebait:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4501660

Neither are participants in HoF. Are only some people allowed to respond to these threads?

[seabeyond]

240. ah, i forgot about that first one, specifically calling us damaged. but, since that is a fav of RCs

he will simply say it was an excellent well stated post, as the other men in that thread, lol. another thread the mens group came out to cheer.

thank you for reminding me.

[opiate69]

245. No, it didn't start there, as even seabeyond acknowledges.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4474507

[seaglass]

259. well it seems that seabeyond is saying the OP brought up emotionally damaged in another post

which I didn't see.

And then the OP decided to start her own thread to bring her remarks to the DU community as a whole. So that's where it started for me and likely the majority in that thread.

[seabeyond]

263. right on. but hey... if opiate wants to start of the beginning of her accusing us as damaged,

who am i to argue... lol

see

so damn cooperative

[seabeyond]

260. you would still start at bellas post that called us damaged, wihich then led to an Op calling us

damaged.

ya. ok. so?

[Voice for Peace]

254. The real remedy is to make an effort to understand other people.

You can't end war with war, or blaming it on the other guy.

[RC]

273. That is true. What has to be done is find the people flagging it on and deal with them.

That is easy, as it is only a few people, both in a real war and here on DU.
The instigators, the enablers will try to keep things going on a more subtle level, but will have a harder time of it, from pressure of the rest of DU. The rest, followers, will fade back into the woodwork after a few attempts at continuing the war and failing.
All it takes is cooperation of the majority.

[seabeyond]

275. pitchforks and torches... where? lets get 'em. nt

[sabrina 1]

307. It is only a few. You are correct. Most people don't want to get engaged as it is pointless, just

wanted to let you know you speak for a lot of people. It isn't the topic, it's the tactics. The topic of women's rights simply cannot be discussed on DU due to the atmosphere created by a few as you stated.

[ismnotwasm]

195. 123...

Gone

[geek tragedy]

2. Trash thread is an option you can exercise.

Speaking of which . . .

[Kurska]

3. Sorry can't happen.

Some people simply won't be satisfied until every piece of commercial media with sexual content as a selling point is gone or shamed out of existence.

Oh my lord, pictures of the human body being sold for money, the horror the horror.



Some people just want to live in the 19th century I guess.

My lord, as a gay man I'm so glad that, on the whole, the gay community has progressed past disgust at the human body. The human body is beautiful and I see nothing with commercial enterprises that celebrate the beauty of the human form.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Until the 2006 primaries start for real...

there's nothing else stupid to fight over. Gender wars are small stuff next to the Hillary vs. Whoever we're about to see.

And, there seem to be only a half dozen or less who keep up the war. Where they get the time and energy I have no idea.

[justiceischeap]

23. The 2006 primaries are over and done with. :) nt

[Orrex]

63. That's a quitter's attitude.

It's never too late to vote in the 2006 primaries!

[pipi_k]

122. So true!

I just voted in the 1960 primaries, since I was too young to vote the first time around

[quinnox]

5. Out of the question, there is too much educating to be done

They won't be satisfied until everyone thinks just like they do, and agrees with them like a servile "yes man".

You WILL obey!

I've seen scientologists who are less devoted to the cause of recruiting lost souls than this particular group.

[Kurska]

6. Yes

CONFORM, CONFORM, CONFORM. The only way we will be free is if you all subscribe exactly to my viewpoints exactly how I how present them.

[quinnox]

10. For sure. Anyone who disagrees simply has not seen the light

or is a male chauvinist (or a woman "gender traitor&quot who hates all women. How DARE anyone question them!

Those heretics and unbelievers will require and better consume as much kool-aid as it takes!

[pnwmom]

16. Is it possible that some people enjoy goading women with posts like the SI swimsuit photos?

While I wasn't involved in the SI wars, I don't see what swimsuit photos have to do with progressive politics.

[BainsBane]

18. Yes, one clearly said as much.

There is a link to the person admitting it was retaliation in a thread in HOF. I could see that it was a deliberate attempt to incite from the start, which is why I didn't participate in the thread. I think we're better off ignoring those threads and letting them fling their own shit. Then people can create their own that addresses issues as they see appropriate.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

64. +1

[lumberjack_jeff]

294. I didn't post the SI thread.

But the annoyance you took from it earned a recommend from me.

Annoying you may not be on my list of things to do, but it's not on my list of things to avoid either.

[lumberjack_jeff]

295. It was a woman who posted it.

I don't think you speak for "women" any more than she does.

[BainsBane]

17. Tell it to the guys who started it all

for what they admitted was deliberate provocation, for retaliation. For what in particular, you'll have to ask them.

It's fascinating how stopping gender wars always hinge around getting feminists to shut their mouths. You think far too highly of yourselves to imagine these threads are directed at you. I can say with absolute certainly that you at no point enter my mind when I write an OP. I write for people who are interested and for those who care. Those who don't can simply trash or ignore the threads.

It says everything that you think ending gender wars hinges on getting feminists to shut up. The fact is most DUers disagree, as is evident by the number of recs that threads by feminists get as opposed to threads hostile to feminism, like the initial SI swimsuit one. Mine now has over 124 recs while the SI spread got 22. That is a clear reflection of where most DUers stand. The majority of people on this site and of the nation actually think increasing civil rights and opportunity for all is a good thing. They actually care enough about their fellow Americans to not be disrespectful to others based on race or gender.

As to the OP's point about being on the same side. What side is that? The fact someone is on DU means they signed up and made an account. It doesn't mean they adhere to a set of common values or beliefs or that they even vote for Democrats. People maintain a wide range of opinions and priorities, and ultimately we know nothing about how people actually vote. I have observed a few patterns. For example, the people who are most hostile to voices of people of color and feminists are also the ones who express the greatest deal of animosity toward the Democratic Party. Some even evoke Todd Akin type language about "forcible" vs. "non-forcible rape." They express opposition to equal protection laws, parity in health insurance, and some even resent a woman's right to make her own reproductive choices. They insist objections to racism are "PC" and "overly sensitive" while flipping out that someone might suggest that some DUers are "malcontents." Clearly they see themselves as far more important than the majority of Americans, whom they feel entitled to demean. Insulting African Americans and child rape victims is "just a joke. LGBT Americans are told should keep quiet about civil rights violations, whereas comments about those they see as the far more important group of DUers --themselves--is a travesty that must be rooted out and punished.

I'm not sure how we're supposed to on the same side, when they make clear that the concerns of the majority of Democrats, who are women and people of color, are inconsequential to them. While they insist they won't vote for the one party that does at least try to be inclusive, even if within the confines of a profoundly corrupt campaign financing system. My side doesn't trash the Democratic Party to pave the way for Republican victory. My side doesn't work to turn the clock back to a period before most Americans enjoyed civil rights protection. Most DUers are Democrats who are on the same side, but the ones who resent the fact that feminists and people of color express their concerns are not among them, particularly when they make clear they don't even see themselves as Democrats.

[gollygee]

19. +1

Last edited Mon Feb 17, 2014, 09:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Esp. about how it's fascinating that when people say they want the gender wars to stop, they seem to want feminists to shut up. What about the thread after thread after thread deliberately baiting feminists? That seems to be fine, in fact the same people who do that say they want the gender wars to stop.

Stopping the gender wars isn't difficult. Stop posting misogynist crap and people will stop calling it out.

[1StrongBlackMan]

21. Calling out misogyny is starting a "Gender War" ...

Where have I heard that before?????

Oh, yeah ... "Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are racists because they are always playing the race card!"/"Race relations were just fine until those outside agitators stirred up our negroes."

Is it possible the two mind-set are linked and present in the mind set of a sub-set of "progressives/liberals", that are given voice here on DU?

[NuclearDem]

25. It only becomes a race/gender/class war when the other side starts fighting back.

Spot on.

[redqueen]

38. +1

[gollygee]

62. Absolutely

It's the same people

[joeglow3]

71. Is it possible that others will only accept total conformity?

Look at the recent faux outrage over being compared to apes? The last time I heard the argument being made by those outraged was when discussing homosexuality with some fundies. When it was pointed out to them that homosexuality was rampant throughout the animal kingdom, they got pissed, said we are NOT apes and that we have evolved beyond the point of animalistic urges.

Basically, everything that was said in that thread was said by these fundies.

[sufrommich]

74. Or you could Google "evolutionary psychology feminism"

and read for yourself why it is a controversial subject in the scientific community and not "faux outrage".

[seabeyond]

76. yes, a faux outrage suggesting its about evolution, as you and others were repeatedly told otherwise

why pretend? it was not about "apes" or evolution.

again. repeating for the 100th time. why faux this outrage?

bonobo said.... do NOT challenge evo psych or you challenge evolution.

got that? that is the issue. evo psych. a FAUX science that men propagate in a cult like manner cause it is the same religious mentality of male dominance and power over the submissive woman, only in the name of science.

it is a branch of science that is debunk by real evolutionary biologists.

are you going to accuse them of being anti evolution

so.... i ask. why did you create this FAUX outrage?

[closeupready]

150. +1000.

[1StrongBlackMan]

111. I missed that thread ...

so I have no idea what you are talking about.

But are you saying that a feminist telling you (in the generic sense), "Stop saying sexist stuff", or a Person of Color saying, "Stop saying racist stuff", whether you, as the unaffected person agrees that your statement is sexist/racist, or not, is a demand for "total conformity?"

If so, that is really troubling.

[joeglow3]

115. No. They told me to quit finding pictures of women sexually appealing

Do you find that rational?

[1StrongBlackMan]

169. Would you be offended if ...

Last edited Mon Feb 17, 2014, 02:19 PM - Edit history (1)

I told you I find your stating your love for Amos and Andy/Uncle Remus cartoons, is supportive of harmful racial stereotyping?

I think a starting point for those telling you this, is that the SI edition is supportive of the objectification of women and your arguing that you see nothing wrong with it is you being supportive of the objectification of women.

{ETA: One would hope that men will get to a point where, after considering the exploitive/objectifying nature of looking at pictures of near naked women, will cease to a source of sexual appeal. It's a lot like seeking out and/or laughing at off-color jokes.}

[redqueen]

247. Thank you for saying this so succinctly.

The fact that so many are apparently just completely oblivious to what objectification is and why it's offensive and harmful is a testament to how far we have regressed on feminist issues since the 80's.

[BainsBane]

134. Indeed it is possible

[ZombieHorde]

272. Good post. nt

[seabeyond]

34. Stopping the gender wars isn't difficult. Stop posting misogynist crap and people will stop calling

you are brilliant golly. people fro years have been starting threads like this, and here, you have the answer. easy peezy. thank you.

[MadrasT]

42. +1

[Tuesday Afternoon]

66. +1

[MattBaggins]

114. We have a winner

Every...single...time

"Stop the gender wars" ALWAYS boils down to; the women needing to shut up

[pipi_k]

192. One big problem

I see with this statement:

Stopping the gender wars isn't difficult. Stop posting misogynist crap and people will stop calling it out.

Or, rather, the sentiment behind it, is that people tend to think that their "truths" are, or should be, the universal standard.


Not even using the topic of misogyny here in my example, but here's something to think about...

Let's say I find something horribly sad. You don't. Do I have the right to DEMAND that you feel the same sadness I do?

You find a joke funny. I don't. Same thing...would you actually demand that I find it funny just because you do?


So you think something is misogynistic. Someone else doesn't.

Your feeling isn't that person's truth. And that is the problem.

People are entitled to their feelings about things. They're not entitled to try to ram their feelings down someone else's throat, and then accuse that person of being someone horrible when he can't feel or think what someone else does.

[1StrongBlackMan]

20. Wow ...

That post made my inability to sleep worth it!

I have observed a few patterns. For example, the people who are most hostile to voices of people of color and feminists are also the ones who express the greatest deal of animosity toward the Democratic Party.

You noticed that, too? I would only add, "And this Democratic, but Black, President" to the above, though it is a spot on observation.

Most DUers are Democrats who are on the same side, but the ones who resent the fact that feminists and people of color express their concerns are not among them, particularly when they make clear they don't even see themselves as Democrats.

[BainsBane]

202. Thanks!

[pintobean]

22. Bullshit. The SI cover thread was started by a woman.

I haven't seen her claim that it was "deliberate provocation, for retaliation".

[RiffRandell]

31. I'm the woman that started it, ALL BY MYSELF.

Independently. It's been posted here before, it was a story on the news that same morning, but no matter what I'm attacked for posting it as flamebait, others who weren't involved for retailiation...I DON'T CARE.

Just don't accuse others when I'm the one who "started it".

[BainsBane]

131. Funny because someone claimed differently

Perhaps you should have a world with him. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4504496

[opiate69]

148. And, is that particular someone the same someone who actually posted that thread?

Um... No, it's not. So, what that would be is speculation, nothing more. And the person who did post that particular thread is telling you that you are wrong...

[BainsBane]

158. Summer?

It's warmed up enough to snow, but that still doesn't qualify as summer, even for the most diehard Minnesotan.
Is summer "sickening" too?

[opiate69]

162. Yeah.. gotta love autofill...

[RiffRandell]

160. Run with that all you want.

I tend to NOT see things that ARE NOT there.

Oh, and tell your friends in your safe haven to stop spreading LIES about me, such as I've been to DU Meetups.

No one on this board has ever met me in RL, and the fact that your friends are gossiping about me is BIZARRE...oh wait, until I consider the source.

[pintobean]

165. Perhaps you should correct your posts and apologize.

You're the one who took the word of someone else.

[Bobbie Jo]

196. Indeed you did "start it"

in this instance.

As a casual observer of this conflict, the word "instigate" immediately came to mind when I saw your OP.

Entry Word: instigator
Function: noun
Meaning: a person who stirs up public feelings especially of discontent <an instigator who always managed to be innocently standing by once the fighting began>

http://i.word.com/ithesaurus/instigator

.....followed by the distinct grinding sound of an axe in the background.

I don't really have a strong opinion about the SI issue, but I know flame baiting when I see it.

Strictly my opinion, of course....FWIW

[pintobean]

204. Several years ago, that wouldn't

have been much flame bait. The fact is, now we have flame throwers who show up in every thread like that, demanding conformity. Many people are unwilling to adjust their behavior to appease a small group of perpetually outraged people.

[Bobbie Jo]

216. I guess we'll have to

agree to disagree on this one, my friend.

Given the context and history of those involved in this ongoing conflict, the OP in question had an axe to grind.

In this instance, she planted it right in the middle of GD.

I may have cynical tendencies, but I'm firmly in "the messenger matters" camp pretty consistently.

Like I said....IMO - FWIW

Take care.

[pintobean]

219. I respect your opinion.

I always enjoy your posts and seeing your take on things. I was just giving my opinion.

I'm not that familiar with RR, but I'm very familiar with the other players. Early Meta was very enlightening for many of us.

[Bobbie Jo]

237. Back at ya....

That's what it's all about.

[RiffRandell]

222. Thank you for realizing it was all me.

I truly mean that. The only grinding I do is on my teeth at night, which my dentist gets on to me about every visit.

I'll probably invest in a mouth guard one of these days as it will protect my teeth, but currently I'm just not feeling it.

[R B Garr]

267. But you didn't post it as a "news story". You posted the pictures and said, WOW.

That looked like flamebait to me, and I was one of the first few dozen or so to view the thread (I checked the views before I shut my computer off), but I couldn't comment at the time because I was literally on my way out the door for a weekend trip. Coming back to DU yesterday, the flamebait I thought you posted has been treated as such for the past couple days.

[RiffRandell]

302. Oh well.

I wasn't going to say"Yuck", that's for sure. So you checked on it right before you went away, then when you got back?

Got it!

[R B Garr]

305. I'm just saying that your true intentions for posting it don't really add up

to it being a desire to discuss "news" issues, but rather a desire to incite and inflame. And it sure worked out well for you!

[seabeyond]

33. +1. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

65. +1

[redqueen]

95. "It says everything that you think ending gender wars hinges on getting feminists to shut up."

Yep.

And this:

Most DUers are Democrats who are on the same side, but the ones who resent the fact that feminists and people of color express their concerns are not among them, particularly when they make clear they don't even see themselves as Democrats.

[ZombieHorde]

268. Good post. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

296. Out, damn facts! Is the observation that a woman posted the SI cover relevant? n/t

[sabrina 1]

308. I'm a feminist and am not at 'war' with anyone. Maybe that's why people, including most of DU's

women who don't even try to engage this small group anymore, either avoid any discussion of women's issues here or if they do try to engage, are required to totally agree with that group. The view that there is a progressive 'war' against their small numbers.

There isn't, there are differences of opinion which most women seem able to discuss elsewhere, not on DU apparently, without going to WAR over every little word or phrase THEY find offensive.

I find WAR offensive, our actual wars which are destroying women around the world. The trivia that is considered 'war' here on DU by this small group, is harming women who have far more important issues to worry about than what I see here being treated as if it was on the same level as the rape of women in the military, of Iraq women in our prisons or in their own homes, eg.

If you want to be taken seriously, then set priorities in terms of what should garner this kind of attention, but what I have seen here isn't it.

As a woman though, I do not want people to think that what is going on here is representative of women in general, it is not.

[treestar]

89. Oh baloney

Women would never have made any progress had they not stood up for themselves. It's quite the opposite, the status quo was for the women to be quiet and submissive, so you might want to watch out that you aren't projecting. Anyone for the status quo naturally not only disagrees but does not even want to hear about it, since even speaking up means women have made some inroads.

[MattBaggins]

112. The MRAers are an obnoxious bunch

Glad you noticed

[Orrex]

283. Did you seriously just resort to "I know you are, but what am I?"

Wow. That's old school.

Of course, I did see someone in the Men's Group obnoxiously refer to certain DUers as "stupid asses" within the past 24 hours.


Oh, wait. That was someone in HoF. My mistake.

[lillypaddle]

223. + 1,,000 nt

[hfojvt]

7. but love is a battlefield

[LiberalAndProud]

8. Good luck with that.

It's a recurring rash on DU's complexion. Nothing to be done for it. I do love trash this thread, though.

[bluedigger]

9. Best of luck with that.

[msongs]

11. iat's ok, women only look at SI for the articles lol nt

[Lasher]

12. I sense an escalation of hostilities

I'm trying to stay out of it. But just for the record I have never worn makeup and never will.

[seabeyond]

36. you made me laugh lasher...

how you made your point. i like

[Lasher]

41. Then today my existence is justified.

Laughter is great medicine.

[seabeyond]

47. lol. it truly is lasher. thank you. enjoy your justified existence today. nt

[Squinch]

79. Lasher, I think a little eyeliner wouldn't hurt. Just saying.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

109. Mascara is pretty goth and I love a man with Paint It Black Toenails. just saying

[mrsadm]

13. Time to leave the playground ...

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. I hate to tell you this...

but the promotion of gender equality and challenging ingrained societal attitudes toward things like gender roles and sexual objectification? That's just as much of a "progressive" cause as challenging homophobia and racism. Or it should be, anyway. These issues aren't just about media representations; they're bound up with a lot of other things that are all part of the same underlying cultural ideas. Pervasive sexual objectification is reflected in things like street harassment of women, in acquaintance rape, in the retrograde idea that the only value women have is as sexual objects and as wives and mothers (which is just an extension of sexuality).

The tension isn't between fellow progressives, it's between progressives and reactionaries. "We" are not all on the same side on many issues.

[Warpy]

15. Thank you. I would offer my own definition of female sex object

It's something a man uses to masturbate into.

We're all sick of being equated to hand cream and toilet paper, unthinking, unfeeling and not human.

This is not going to go away and we are not going to shut up about it until it penetrates and men realize there really is a problem here and modify their behavior toward us accordingly.

[NuclearDem]

27. Disclaimer: Great post, couldn't agree more.

And I'm really sorry I have to do this.

until it penetrates

Sorry, I know where the time out corner is, I'll show myself out.

[seabeyond]

37. +1. nt

[Scout]

179. post #15, thread winner n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. Agreed ...

the promotion of gender equality and challenging ingrained societal attitudes toward things like gender roles and sexual objectification? That's just as much of a "progressive" cause as challenging homophobia and racism. Or it should be, anyway ... The tension isn't between fellow progressives, it's between progressives and reactionaries. "We" are not all on the same side on many issues.

But would say,the promotion of gender equality and challenging ingrained societal attitudes toward things like gender roles and sexual objectification is MORE of a "progressive" cause than challenging the NSA.

[redqueen]

45. +1

[Scootaloo]

52. You win the thread

Sadly, we don't have any prizes. But if we did, you would have won one of them.

[sufrommich]

53. Well said,as usual. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

68. +1

[joeglow3]

72. That sounds great, until you push it toward Muslim treatment

If I find a woman's body sexually appealing, I am a sexist, need to be shamed and need to be kicked off of DU. Honestly, the only other place I have seen that radical of a view is hardcore Muslim countries.

[MadrasT]

77. Oh Jesus not this shit again.

You are not sexist for finding a woman's body sexually appealing.

You very well may be sexist if you think it's OK to use that proclivity to create an atmosphere that is hostile and threatening for those who are in the same demographic group of people you lust after.

I have no trouble keeping news about who I find sexually appealing to myself. It's between me and those people (if I find it appropriate to divulge that information to them).

There is no need to trumpet it across the interwebs.

[seabeyond]

80. then how is he going to hold up his man card for all to see....... lol. the thing,

this is also the person that argued for a definition of what rape was.... in another thread. that is think would be more in tuned to our discussion of this issue.

cant fuck a drunk girl that does not give consent? is that rape or not?

meh

[joeglow3]

118. Spin facts much? THIS is the bull shit we are dealing with.

[seabeyond]

125. meh... i know you were in some thread, about some bullshit about not able to define rape.

you are talking about bullshit... not allowed to be attracted to women.

since that would be bullshit, i was redirecting to a much stronger reason women may call you out.

why dont you clear up your confusion about rape. i am always ready to listen, reevaluate, and correct.

that is just the kinda gal i am.

[joeglow3]

175. Stop pretending like you are interested in an intellectually honest conversation

I addressed people who made the claim that NOBODY can give consent while drunk? I asked them, if both parties are drunk, how do you determine who raped who, if neither party can legally give consent.

You twisted that into I support raping women. Like I said, THIS is the bullshit we are dealing with.

[seabeyond]

181. seems to me you are asking definition of rape, consent. but... there you go. you expressed, and

it is out there.

i totally embrace clarification for intellectually honest conversation. almost. one of my highest goals.

i am well known for that.

i set the bar high.

[joeglow3]

182. No. I was asking someone to clarify THEIR position

And you twisted that into I support rape.

Ironically, I was just reading a thread about tactics you used here and Redqueen uses like it is her job:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4512365

[seabeyond]

184. kinda like saying, my words are.... you support rape. i re read, nope didnt say you support

rape.

i said you needed clarification, definition of what rape is or is not.

as you proved in your own statement. discussion 101. do not continually accuse me of doing, what you are doing. looks silly

[gollygee]

210. Who are you to talk about intellectual honesty

in a subthread you started claiming people at DU say you're sexist if you find women's bodies appealing?

[joeglow3]

212. Yeah. Have you not been on DU for the last 3-4 days?

[gollygee]

214. I saw some garbage saying women have to deal with sexism because apes

and a lot of intellectual dishonesty saying that evo psychology is the same as evolutionary science.

[joeglow3]

224. And that is the intellectual dishonesty right there

I NEVER said women have to "deal with sexism." The issue then comes down to the over-reaching definition that some have of sexism. Am I sexist because I walk down the street and someone I think is great looking catches my eye? Is it wrong if I look at her? I just heard a study last week about the positive impacts on the human brain from looking at a person one deems attractive.

Thus, it is clear much of what many in that thread deemed to be sexist is in fact hard-wired into our DNA. For a PURE scientific standpoint, this EXACT SAME THING can be seen when looking at our closest relatives in the animal kingdom. Their response is that we are more evolved than that and should be able to suppress that. Pointing out that has no basis in fact and, in fact, is ridiculed (rightly show), when some fundy uses the same argument to argue against homosexuality only further proves their point (and yours?)that we support sexism.

Sorry, but I see no basis in scientific fact and people just demanding the world ignore science and abide by their world view. Like I said, I know plenty of people who adopt the mentality on the right and they are ridiculed here. Yet, that same logic is not only being embraced here, it is being used to make terrible accusations against fellow posters.

[seabeyond]

228. first. is that the study if men look at boobs 10 minutes a day they are healthier? that was fox news

story sucked in by a fake study. all the men throw that one out.

second, if that staring at the woman, making her feel on display for you, making her uncomfortable disrupting her health is cool, cause it makes you healthier? you take priority to her?

third.... evo psychology.... oh yea, debunked science, that has a cult following of men that is all about being the new religion of dominating and controlling women and demanding they be submissive thru made up story telling studies, all in the name of science.

hey... this is not telling you to shut up. this is replying to only half of your post, cause i totally had something to say about it. that would be discussions on a message board. your right to put it out, my right to call it out.

[gollygee]

229. Evolutionary psychology is not science

It's pseudoscience used by rape apologists. Complete garbage.


http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2005/08/cave_thinkers.html

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/200906/evolutionary-psychology-deserves-criticism

[joeglow3]

248. Westboro, is that you??

[gollygee]

279. Ok, logic here

this fails in so many ways. Westboro's problem is with evolution. I believe in evolution.

Evolutionary psychology is another thing altogether.

[seabeyond]

281. ohhh, i thought he was accusing you of hate, them being hate group. bah hahahha. still the evo psych

is par with theory of evolution thing, lol

my so bad.

[gollygee]

282. Well they both have the word "evolution" in them

so they must be the same thing!!1111@!!!

[joeglow3]

291. Not what I was saying

Hate groups claim we are far enouogh removed from other animals that we should see the irrationality of homosexual relationships.

[gollygee]

297. Still has nothing to do with what I think or believe

Rape apologists say that animals rape and so it's natural for humans to do it as well. I assume that isn't your argument?

[seaglass]

241. You lied to me yesterday to make some idiotic point, so much for honesty.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4509637
joeglow3 (4,176 posts)
203. The f word offends me

Are you done using it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4509822
seaglass (5,316 posts)
252. Yeah right.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3769219

joeglow3 (4,150 posts)
21. You got yours, so fuck the millions who can't get theirs

To those millions, this is a turd that changed nothing for them, except lets them pay money for no change.

[joeglow3]

252. You realize the f word doesn't offend me.

Rather I posted that to prove a point? I apologize if that was too hard to follow. I will try to be clearer, in the future.

[seaglass]

253. No point was proven except that you don't have a problem lying to prove a point. And yeah, I've got

that.

[joeglow3]

117. So, those people coming out of the closet should STFU

After all, there is no need to trumpet who they find sexually appealing.

[MadrasT]

141. Sorry, I don't play the strawman game. n/t

[joeglow3]

177. Nice defense mechanism

Someone points out how you change your logic to fit your goal and you clam up.

[MadrasT]

197. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4514743

[joeglow3]

201. Exactly my point.

If my logic gets applied to a situation where I don't like the outcome, rather than evaluate my reasoning, I will claim it is a strawman. Nice way to avoid ever having to self-evaluate.

[Vashta Nerada]

238. I hope you don't go to the beach when other women are there wearing bikinis.

Because they are creating a hostile environment.

[seabeyond]

265. yes, if those bikinis were brought into the work force to entertain the men. right on. you are

learning. cool.

and they say we are wasting our time educating.

[Vashta Nerada]

269. Huh.

I can understand that in the workplace. The workplace should be non-hostile and comfortable for all employees to be in.

I don't understand how posting the cover of SI swimsuit edition can be hostile in GD, however, unless it was posted for the purpose of titillation (which I'm sure it wasn't).

[seabeyond]

274. of course it fuckin was. are you series!!11!!1!!!!!! lol, lordy dude. duh.

i say duh in love, not mean.

yes. it was all a game. not well executed. for the purpose of putting the shit out there for the boys to play. it did not end up like that, because too many people, beyond just hof, saw the ploy easily and called it out.

so yes. it would be just like a work environment and the boss bringing some strippers to entertain the men. some, a few women would get into it, cheering the boys on in their vulgarities and and degrading the girls, and the rest of us.....

THAT is what the Op was all about. i chose not to really play much in it. cause so damn obvious. besides, too many many people already had it handled, calling bullshit. while the mens group came out and patted the poster on the back.

yes. that was the purpose. but, i am glad you are sure it was not the purpose.

[seabeyond]

78. If I find a woman's body sexually appealing, I am a sexist, need to be shamed and need to be kicked

an example of your faux outrage

[joeglow3]

119. Redqueen said all these things this weekend

How is stating what someone said faux?

[seabeyond]

128. i do not think she said that. you are saying she told you, you cannot find a woman sexually

appealing?

really, i am gonna need a link. i read most all her posts, even when i do not necessarily participate in a thread. but, i could have missed some. let me know when you find redqueen saying that you were not allowed to find women sexually appealing.

i sit here in anticipation.

[joeglow3]

176. No. She ignored my comments and just called me names

Basically, her normal M.O.

[seabeyond]

186. no? so, she did not do what you accused her of doing. merely called you names?

link please. cause i do not think she did that either.

[joeglow3]

200. Here is one thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024498713?bcsi_scan_1791ceaaa372a8fb=FuDfPb5bv2EZ0OWYIzJFvyCeFRYnAAAALmrngw==

As you will see, Redqueen resorted to making up disgusting conclusions that assigned terrible attributes to people in an attempt to shut them up. She did this throughout the thread (to myself, ladyhawk, one_voice, etc.). Basically, if anyone even questions a view of hers (not even having the gall to disagree with her), she resorts to the shill gambut and calls them sexists, supporters of rape, etc. Essentially, she is not intersted in discussing anything. One of the few posts of mine she did not respond was when I asked her what view she has ever changed while on DU. Essentially, she wants to tell everyone how she has everything figured, but cannot support her positions with anything other than try to hang a scarlet letter on those who question her.

[seabeyond]

213. you want me to go thru that huge ass (see the funny) thread to come up with

you stating your opinion, redq doing the same. you are allowed. she is not. kinda thing?

i think not

it is always interesting that you say you are being denied your right to express, simply because someone challenges you on your statement.

if you have a post where she calls you sexist, calls you a rape apologist, or tells you to shut the fuck up, i am interested. otherwise, no thank you.

i am not reading that long ass thing, that i was not much interested in the first place, knowing well the sole purpose was a jab in the nose by the women that posted that OP. and all the men from the mens group to gather and pat her on the back as one of them, only so they could go back to the mens group and cheer each other.

whatever

[joeglow3]

226. And you "knowing" what is there without looking is the closeminded discussions I avoid

Sorry, but I am not interested in the type of people who just tell me they "know" everything without having even having to look at it. I get enough of that shit from the right and come here to embrace progressives interested in discussions Sadly, I have found a half dozen or so that lack those skills.

[seabeyond]

230. you give me a thread of what 600 posts to read thru to find what you deem as whatever? and that

makes me closed minded cause i do not want to spend two hours hunting thru a thread that i was not interested in in the first place? i am the problem. you already accused her twice before of smething that you backed off of and changed the complaint.

surely you do not fault me that i am not willing ot hunt and pick to see if i can find a shred of evidence that redq made the accusations you state.

if it is all so clear. simple point out where. instead of telling me to find them.

[joeglow3]

246. control-f is your friend

[seabeyond]

250. What will this friend do for me? I will try again later. Busy now. Nt

[joeglow3]

251. control-f "redqueen"

You can see all her posts.

[redqueen]

255. Fuck that. You made the assertion - you back it up.

Asking her to waste her time searching for something that doesn't exist is pure bullshit.

[joeglow3]

258. Awwww. A double encore

nice.

[seabeyond]

271. lmao. you want me to call up all redq post and see if i can find anything offensive toward you....

bull fuckin shit.

i guess you did not get that the first time, i was not going to spend hours looking for something. twice now you have walked away from an accusation to her.

a couple times you have exaggerated to the point of it simply not being true

there is a trust and time issue here

lmao... too funny.

[joeglow3]

276. Start at post 482 for one example.

Like I said, this defense mechanism could be re-named Redqueen:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4512365

[seabeyond]

277. that is huckle thread and stops at 38. will find the other link

in another post and look for 482.

[seabeyond]

278. see, here is the thing. i didnt read the bullshit about your rape discussion cause i am so fuckin

tired of that shit. it is all easy enough. and i did not want to hear one more man go thru a twisted whatever about fuckin rape.

so.... redq is disgusted with that discussion. i get it. i was before you even got far, and walked away from THAT thread.

now, in order to see if redq said anything unfairly extreme, i would have to read that whole conversation that i had NO interesting in reading in the first place.

so no. she did not call you a sexist. she did not call you a rape apologist. and yes.... that conversation she had about rape, with you, disgusted her. she has that right to be disgusted. as you had the right to state what you wanted to say. no one told you to shut up or had to agree. they told you, that whatever you said, disgusted her. i am not going to read that whole subthread.

Nope. That's only your perspective, because you post sickening bullshit like you did about rape.

Do you really think any rational person believed your attempt to claim your "confusion" about rape stemmed from the differing definitions of legal drunkenness in different states?

What do you think happens when someone claims they've been raped after a night of drinking? Do you think the cops to back in time and measure blood alcohol levels?

Yeah, again, so done.

[Squinch]

81. ^^^^^^

[myrna minx]

121. Thank you.

[R B Garr]

289. Excellent post! And Warpy's response is also excellent.

Thank you.

[NuclearDem]

24. If all we do is use "the other side's" misogyny and bigotry without dealing with our own

Then all it means is that we can use women and people of color as little more than political weapons.

DU isn't going to change Republican minds on bigotry. What we can do is fight it in our own circles.

[seabeyond]

39. you are da man..... i really want a high five smilie. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

101. +1

[1StrongBlackMan]

123. +1 ...

Then all it means is that we can use women and people of color as little more than political weapons.

Well said!

[gollygee]

207. Yes!

absolutely.

[orpupilofnature57]

28. Excuse me your mistaking Gender and opinions .

[badtoworse]

29. Put the seat down, already!

[1StrongBlackMan]

30. Do you think this "gender War Divisiveness" ...

Will impact the 2014/2016 elections? If so, that speaks not very flatteringly towards many here.

I recall, in some of the "calling out racial privilege/racism" threads people saying that calling out racial privilege/racism among DUers would make some DUers less likely to side with other DUers because, essentially, it hurt their feelings. I found it interesting because I never heard a feminist (or a person of color) argue that the misogyny/racism of/in DU would make them/us less likely to vote Democratic.

I think that is a point worth pondering.

[seabeyond]

40. +1. nt

[redqueen]

48. Thank you very much for calling attention to that particular tactic. nt

[sufrommich]

50. ....

[Tuesday Afternoon]

103. 1SmartMan is speaking truth to the power right here.

[1StrongBlackMan]

126. Not "Truth to Power" ...

but rather, Truth to "progressives" united for the status quo.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

133. !

[NCTraveler]

136. Good Post. nt.

[gollygee]

211. !

good point.

[CFLDem]

32. Mmm pretzel bread...

But yes, we must fight back against the prudes lest we become like them.

[Eleanors38]

35. The 60s are long over; progressives are only now learning to hate.

Don't expect this topic to go away any more than, say, "guns?" Vast quantities of hate and ridicule will be used in service of the prime objectives: Hurting others, and elevating ones sense of moral superiority. And the response to this will be the same:

Double-down.

We are no where near PeakHate™.

[sufrommich]

43. Why,oh why won't those feminists just shut up already?

Buzzkills,all of them.

[seabeyond]

46. buzzkill...? i dunno sufro,

i had fun dancing with you last night. and i had a real funny i put up in hof. we are rockin'. i think we know how to dance as well as the next man,

[sufrommich]

49. I read ismnotwasm's wonderful OP in HoF this morning

(Telling Women to Shut Up) and came to GD to see this perfect example of the article. Unreal.

[seabeyond]

58. ya. always told. and when pointed out the immediate reply... oh, you can talk. well, thanks. lol

why we need to continually point it out says a lot

[seabeyond]

44. meh... i dunno. i am like the nicest, and so easy to get along with pretzel. i simply do not know

WHY, there has to be any issues. i am fine, lol. thank you

and i do not buy into the "gender wars". there are lottsa lottsa men that stand beside us feminists, and there are lottsa women that stand beside the other side. so really not about gender fighting gender, all about issues which pertain to women.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

54. +1

[TheMathieu]

51. I'm ready for a lengthy debate on how we address the first male spouse of a female President. nt

[Soundman]

55. Short of banning about 10-12 accounts

And one particular group it ain't gonna happen. When a group of posters have the sole purpose to disrupt, belittle and generally cause a crappy atmosphere there is no "cure." You would think those on both sides of the coin would find a place that is more in tune with their overall motivation and set up shop there.

I can't believe I am the only one that lives in a red area inundated by a daily barrage of wing nut craziness. A Facebook page that makes my head spin from all of the ignorance displayed by those I used to think had a degree of intelligence. And then I come to a refuge where I would think I am around like minded posters only to be deluged with even more crazyness and belittling. Totally sucks......

It's almost as if they do it on purpose. Hmmmmm.

[seabeyond]

59. i do not think it is a good idea to ban the mens group, and kick all the men off du. i do not think

that is the answer, and we do not need to go that far. there are other answers, other solutions, i assure you.

sorry soundman. i cannot agree.

[sufrommich]

60. "Uppity women ruined my refuge"

[Soundman]

227. Who said that besides you?

Projection is another unbecoming habit exhibited by those that I speak of!

[gollygee]

70. This is such a load of crap

I mean really. If only women knew their place and didn't complain about sexism, this would be a liberal refuge? Do you read what you write?

[seabeyond]

82. basically, this is what the Op is about. and this is what we are repeatedly hearing. not as blunt.

not to the ultimate conclusion, out loud anyway, that i and others need to be kicked off cause we are too bad, and hof needs to be shut down.

and that.... is saying it out loud.

[Capt. Obvious]

85. "i and others need to be kicked off cause we are too bad, and hof needs to be shut down"

Do each of you get your own crucifix or do you have to share one and take turns up on it?

[seabeyond]

91. "Do each of you get your own crucifix or do you have to share one" an example of pretend.

yes. now we start doing the pretend or faux argument. right. cause each of us have not heard this often. some people feel totally free and validated in suggesting we need ot be kicked off. it is clear what soundman is saying. and yet.... you are pretending otherwise to make this crucifex argument, or other use the word victim.

i do not play games. going to be coy? i am gonna say it out loud.

per soudmans statement, you tell me where i am wrong instead of simply taking the lazy mode of insulting me.

[Capt. Obvious]

92. I'll take that as you each getting your own cross

[seabeyond]

94. so, you continue the insult instead of actually addressing my post. reasoned post. reasoned

request. now... people can readily see where the issue is.

[Capt. Obvious]

98. He reads your article, my brain hurts my eyes cross

[seabeyond]

102. more insults.

[seabeyond]

104. the point of this little exercise, is to give a blatant example what women are continually dealing

with as we have men writing OPs that these "gender wars" have got to stop. as if us women are doing something wrong. ok. we have a subthread of one man saying we need to be kicked off. another man that merely insults and refuses to actually discuss the issue

and members of du are REALLY pointing the finger at us women? really?

yet... not a single one will step in and challenge either of these two men.

so us women challenge the two men. at THAT point, we have done wrong.

women, have done wrong.

[seabeyond]

110. that is such a bullshit hide. what can even be the reasoning for that hide. do tell.

wowser..... wowser wowser.

i guess, looking at that post, and sittin in wonder why the hell it was hidden, i am escalating my persecution complex? so.... a man can throw out the insult. a woman cannot call it. interesting.

kinda goes perfectly with this thread and Op

[Denzil_DC]

113. Jury result:

On Mon Feb 17, 2014, 07:41 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

It's all in your head,Sea.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4514559

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

you're just being hysterical or possibly PMSing - UGH. This mysoginstic bullshit makes DU suck

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Feb 17, 2014, 07:50 AM, and the Jury voted 4-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: More gender bashing and personal attack.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post of Suffromich's is obviously sarcasm expressing support for Seabeyond's position. He also posted a similarly sarcastic supportive comment earlier in the thread:

"Why,oh why won't those feminists just shut up already?

Buzzkills,all of them. {dripping sarcasm.gif rolleyes.gif}"

Assuming this alert was in good faith, the alerter would do well not to alert in a kneejerk fashion without looking at the wider context in future, which does indeed make DU suck. If this post gets hidden because people take the alerter's word without looking further, it will be unfair.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think surfommich was being sarcastic, actually. Soundman ACTUALLY called for banning 10-12 accounts at the start of this subthread (typical MRA-er, honestly. Whole Men's Group is full of them, and they're in this thread, started by one of them.)
MRA types do NOT actually debate issues: they try to belittle and force feminists off of the web. Like Soundman was proposing.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

FWIW, I was juror #4.

I wonder how many of the jurors might want to revise their verdict now.

[seabeyond]

116. thank you, clears it up. i have had hides in dishonesty from alerters, and no, i do not think it

was in good faith. but, i at least can see the angle taken.

juror 4 and 5.... awesome. fuckin awesome. that you did not have an ax to grind, or/and you actually pay attention to what you are doing.

wow.

thanks

[Denzil_DC]

124. "i do not think it was in good faith"

In the interests of impartiality I felt I had to allow for that and not make assumptions or allegations I can't back up.

No, I don't have an ax to grind and generally stay out of these piefights, but jury duty involved me, so here I am!

That hide truly sucked. If I'd been a juror hoodwinked (if that's what happened) by the alerter, I'd be quite angry at this point. If I was the alerter, I'd own up to the mistake (if that's what it was).

Peace.

[seabeyond]

130. thank you. nt

[hrmjustin]

127. Horrible verdict.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

144. Horrible Alert.

[hrmjustin]

152. Agreed!

[kcr]

209. They can't revise it

It might have been an honest mistake, but you never know. Seabeyond has a "fan club" and this might have been collateral damage.

[Denzil_DC]

232. Yeah, I know that.

To run it like a real jury with the opportunity for discussion (like Six Angry Men ...) would take up too much of everyone's time.

But if I'd been one of the four jurors who voted to hide and I hadn't voted out of animosity, I'd be making a mental note to look at posts and the alerters allegations more closely next time I got called for jury duty.

If I was the alerter and the alert wasn't out of animosity, I'd be feeling like a bit of a heel right now.

Anyway, after 90 days it'll be history.

[kcr]

242. I know, it's mainly just me venting about the jury sytem

I'm really not a fan.

[pintobean]

105. There are a lot of posts in

hof calling for people to be kicked off this site. There was also a thread wanting the mens group to be shut down.

We all have our crosses to bear. Watch out for splinters.

[sufrommich]

106. Which has what do do with accusing someone of

having a persecution complex for seeing what was plainly written?

[seabeyond]

107. what the fuck does that have to do with what i said to soundman? another cross insult?

and link to whatever shit you are accusing any of. i am clueless.

another man, the point of stepping in, to do a cross insult?

whatever pinto.

all i did was repeat what soundman said out loud. the only difference in your post is you did not pretend he didnt say it. but.... i still get the cross reference cause i said it out loud.

and this is my problem, how?

never mind. i really do not care whatever you have to say. it will inevitably be another insult, that i can be sure of.

[1StrongBlackMan]

139. And the idea that ...

they making such a statement is a prime example of what "feminists" here are saying, completely misses these folks.

Oh, yeah ... Welcome back!

[seabeyond]

146. this is such a fuckin awesome thread in every way showing us clearly what the issue is. and how

easily it can be resolved in an adult manner, lol. and the issues that arise that we deal with regularly. not to mention the bottomline is the expectation for women to not speak up, in many forms, with this thread. all the way down to the nontruth of the alerter and 4 jurors bringing in a hide, to once again, shut a woman up (whether that is the intent or not, i do not know).

but... in the micro of all this, very very interesting. and if someone was open minded, a lot to learn. and...

thank you strong. one day at a time. who knows what tomorrow will bring, lol. that hide could have easily been one of my posts and poof... again. but not for long this time. i have a couple hides that are about to fall away. i have felt like i was on borrowed time, since coming back though. has been interesting.

[Capt. Obvious]

56. I have no idea what you're talking about

[NCTraveler]

57. And on du a man says....

"This Gender War bullshit at DU must stop"

and al the good little women of du run to the corners of the internet where it is acceptable for them to talk freely.

We all have priorities, yours just don't lie within discussion of equality. Your overall view of discussions occurring is not based in reality. I have learned huge amounts about feminism from reading du. Instead of telling women(and the men who fight sexist bullshit every day) to shut up, how about you give it a try. Don't let feminism "distract" you from your real concerns.

So glad to see this is not going in the direction I thought it was going to. Only a couple of poor little souls are really jumping on with you here. I pity them and the women in their lives. You all have a chance to make a difference. Your fear of losing power and ownership is getting in the way of making the world a less hostile place for women. You are a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.

[seabeyond]

61. sheeeeit. we were suppose to run in a corner and shut up? sheeeeit. my bad. lol

we took the other path, came in here, and let our voice be heard, lol.

guess that makes us bad little wimminz, lol

good morning to you NC. YOU have a nice day today.

[NCTraveler]

86. You have a wonderful day also seabeyond.

What I have learned most here and in my life about this issue and the inability of some to even address it in a real manner. Women speaking their mind is seen by many men as out of place and bad behavior. Men speaking their mind is strength and confidence. Many men can't even recognize that. To the men who do, I love you.

Hey Pretzel:

If your reproductive rights were being restricted daily...
If you had to have a weapon in your pocket while walking to your car in a dark parking lot and still not feel safe...
If someone purposefully brushed up against your tits in a department store...
If society viewed you as let-than after being sexually violated by someone physically stronger...
If you were leered at and told "bet you are a lot of fun" while walking down the street....
If you were told to shut up and behave in a manner to make others feel more confident just for speaking your mind....
If you were sexually assaulted yet the assailants friends told everyone how the aggressor is normally a good guy....

Would you consider it to be a war?
Would you try to stand up for yourself and others?

[seabeyond]

93. recognizing that list could go on forever. thank you. excellent. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

129. +1

and thank you.

[el_bryanto]

67. Please stop saying things that make me uncomfortable.

I don't come to DU to be challenged; I just want to hear people agreeing with me.

Bryant

[barbtries]

69. agree.

we are for the most part on the same team. and we need to be.

[aikoaiko]

73. Yeah! Instead, go make Pretzel_Warrior a sandwich.

:Sarcasm:

Seriously, there are no gender wars on DU. Just men and women discussing issues.

[Iggo]

75. Boys vs Girls is the overall stupidest thing about this site.

[seabeyond]

87. you laughed at my joke. you are a boy. i put that joke up. i am a girl. point.

i wast to clarify. it really is not boy vs girl. there are lottsa lottsa boys that stand with us girls. and there are lottsa girls that stand with the boys on the other side of the issue.

it is more raunch vs not. imo

[Iggo]

173. That's 'cause it was funny. And it's funny because it's true.

Far as the raunch goes, obvious flamebait is obvious. Which goes right back to the boys vs girls thing. (And yes, I'm using those two words on purpose, because men and women shouldn't be fighting like children.)

[seabeyond]

194. well, i do not see it as boys vs girls...

but, that is cool that you do. we disagree. and ya... i got why you used the terms, hence me following along. it was kinda fun.

[brooklynite]

83. Like any religion, it's the smallest differences that cause the biggest rifts.

[Myrina]

84. But but but ... I MUST reserve the right to be offended

because, well .... because I said so!!

[CTyankee]

97. It is good to remember that suffragists didn't succeed because they shut up and sat down.

Much of the gist of your message was leveled against those women a hundred years ago. But they didn't shut up and they didn't sit down. Hell no, they marched and got spit on and called names and marginalized with grotesque caricatures in the news media of that day (similar to what is being displayed here).

And now you have the right to vote.

Funny how that happened, isn't it?

[Myrina]

132. You ASSUME I am "leveling a message" against women.

Why is that? I could just as easily be mocking the men who complain women are so damn touchy.

Thanks for proving my point.

[CTyankee]

135. then by all means point out what I got wrong...

[seabeyond]

137. sounds like mockery we hear often toward women. but, i am open. you? nt

[CTyankee]

140. Sure, if I got the poster's point wrong, I want to know about it. I want to hear

that point of view.

[seabeyond]

149. sure. cause we are just that kind of woman, ..... ya know? correct me if i am wrong.

you betcha.

[CTyankee]

231. I'm old enough to "take it."

Boy, am I ever...!

[seabeyond]

233. lol. waiting waiting waiting. lol. i say that to the kids all the time when waiting, so

more an inside joke

still waiting

here i sit waiting

lol.

ah well.

we pretty much know so, meh.

[treestar]

88. It's an issue of our times

Hashing it out is OK. No one has to change their mind. It's still a good idea to discuss.

[beachbum bob]

90. gives some people a reason to complain

and get up ever day.

[HappyMe]

96. I make good use of the trash can.

[AngryAmish]

99. It won't end until one side or the other wins

[1StrongBlackMan]

147. No ...

it won't end until men saying misogynistic stuff stop saying misogynistic stuff ... Or at least, that's my hope, because the "sides" are not morally equivalent.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

154. +1

[Squinch]

284. We're in for a long haul.

I think we're not even at the point of discussing moral equivalence. Those saying misogynistic stuff seem to think they occupy the moral, or at least intellectual, high ground.

[1StrongBlackMan]

285. As you/we should be ...

the moral, or at least intellectual, high ground that they occupy has a name: PRIVILEGE; though they will deny it ... very loudly.

[Squinch]

301. Yes,

but their term for it is "biology."

[1StrongBlackMan]

309. Okay ... That made me chuckle. eom.

[hrmjustin]

108. What do you want members to do here?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

157. Wow!

I posted this last night. Saw 3 posts and went to bed. I wake up today to find this. I will think of a longer reply explaining why I feel the way I do... But this is amazing. Over 100 posts in this thread? Wow. Was not expecting that.

[hrmjustin]

159. This will go to at least 300 replies.

[zazen]

120. This is a familiar rhetorical tactic, like that used by the GOP of shouting "class warfare"

when anyone calls out the _real_ class warfare by the 1% rigging the system to invisibly reproduce inequality.

The genius of that system in America, recognized in the early 20th century by Walter Lippman and others who observed labor movements here never took off the way they did in other countries, has been to get our middle and local classes to internalize that inequality as something we're personally responsible for causing and therefore redressing.

I'm too worn out right now to draw out the analogy, which I presume is obvious to everyone else here.

[redqueen]

262. Excellent analogy.

It does seem obvious to me, but given how often we see the false balance tactic used (e.g. "boys vs. girls is the stupidest thing&quot upthread, I'm really not sure how many really see it.

[Coyotl]

138. Isn't it bullshit to call this gender war?

What gender war? Which genders? And why focus on whether or not I even belong to one?

[Springslips]

142. The day I see a smart gender war thread here...

With smart, great points and counterpoints by both sides; with non-insulting humor enjoyed by both sides; with an authentic attempt to understand the POV of the opposition; with compassion for the other, yet with passion for your own; devoid of ridiculous strawlmen-woman, ad hominem, and reduction to the absurd attacks; that I can learn from, that challenges my position, while I challenge someone else, and so we can move to better understanding; will be the first!

Instead our gender argument is a higher vocabulary-variation to the playground's, "boys are poopy heads; girls are icky."

Grow up people!

[seabeyond]

151. then you might ought to read this thread. there is a lot of intelligent, thoughtful,

thought provoking and humorous posts thru out this thread.

[1StrongBlackMan]

155. I would argue ...

that you will never see a "Smart" gender war thread (or a smart race, discussion, for that matter), based on your definition of what that discussion would look like.

There are very few subjects in which I hold an absolutist position; but race and gender wars are two of them. Why should I, as a Black man, make an "authentic attempt to understand the POV" of someone that says racist stuff (whether knowingly or unknowingly)? Why would we expect that of women vis-à-vis misogyny?

[seabeyond]

166. thank you strong. and thank you for providing this poster the opportunity to hear what you say

and provide us with a witty, intelligent, respectful reply.

totally awesome. and i cannot wait. i love intellectualism with witticism and respect always a forefront.

[Springslips]

187. Good post

To me there is a lot of talking past each other. That's why I mentioned the POV thing. Maybe you are correct, there's a group of woman haters, a MRA influenced faction floating around, that needs responded to quickly.

BTW the onus isn't just on the feminist side; more often it is the opposition that starts the knee jerk reactions, turning the threads into crap.

Of course though, these issues needs discussed, I just wish it was more productive. Maybe I am just nieve?

[NCTraveler]

264. Love this. Thanks. nt.

[Cleita]

167. Ha! Now you know. The gender warriors really do belong on

the playground and you do yourself a service by leaving them there.

[seabeyond]

172. you jump in and insult people. but we are the issue? how does that work? nt

[Springslips]

189. I never said they belong on the playground

I said it sounds like it is from the playground.

It was hyperbole though.

[Cleita]

225. Never apologize for expressing a valid opinion.

You can't always be in agreement with those who would censor all discussion except the one they espouse.

[seabeyond]

235. yup, just put head down and keep on insulting. no need to apologize. cute. k. outta here, and YOU

have a god day.

[1StrongBlackMan]

270. But then again ...

you shouldn't have to seek "agreement" with a "progressive" that making misogynistic/racist statements are not very "progressive"-like. That should be a given.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

143. Why do you feel entitled to dictate what DU was or wasn't set up for? (n/t)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

145. heh, I see what you did there. eom

[JTFrog]

161. The Gender War bullshit in America must stop.

This war on women is getting fucking ridiculous. We are getting hammered every single day by right wing that wants to take our rights away. You may say we are for the most part on the same team, but the reddit like atmosphere around here lately makes that hard to believe. The caveman debates on evolution where we compare the sex life of apes to humans and assume that aggressive male heterosexual behavior is the only natural outcome.... fucking disgusting.

You want we should sit down, shut up and swallow that load of shit?

No thanks.

[Cleita]

164. Thread trash and ignore are your friends.

That battle is no longer on your computer and you can concentrate on real issues like fracking, Keystone and climate change. Things everyone of every gender should be very concerned about.

[AverageJoe90]

180. I'll be honest about this.....I have to agree.

While it's certainly true that there is indeed a time and place to discuss gender, ethnic, etc. issues, and that there have been some issues with folks getting testy.....the main problem is indeed largely a problem with miscommunication, as well as some bullheadedness on both sides of the issue, and as you pointed out, some debates have been blown way out of proportion. And so too, by the way, has the problem of supposed "exclusion" on this site: while actual efforts at such, open or covert should be condemned & rebuked, it's not nearly as prevalent as some have come to believe.

I think if we could all just calm down and try to talk to each other in a more respectful manner, we'd have far fewer problems with this.....

[FreakinDJ]

185. Outside Agitators

A post about Crooked Wall St Bankers gets Hiden by Jury yet a thread referring men are like apes stays

We got bigger fish to fry then this BS

[seabeyond]

190. uh... a man stated we are all apes and men are going to behave as such and all of us have to deal

with it. if we dare challenge that we do not have to behave like apes (evo psychology) then we are challenging evolution itself.

the post you are referring to created by a woman was challenging the MAN that told us without hesitation, that YOUR behavior was gonna be ape, and deal with it, while the woman was challenging that assertion.

see, she thinks you men, and ya, us women are more than our ancestry.

so, if you have a problem with being referred to as an ape, you might want to address bonobo.

[FreakinDJ]

199. Who is bonobo

[seabeyond]

217. a long time duer. the host of the mens group. nt

[Puzzledtraveller]

191. Agreed

[Fumesucker]

193. Oh Hell No!

Since the demise of the late lamented Meta the Gender War threads are by far the most entertaining and they are even occasionally educational as well.

For instance I learned a new and amazingly foul derogatory term for women that I never picked up in sixty plus years of an at times moderately raunchy lifestyle.

[Initech]

203. And what would become of the popcorn industry?

[dionysus]

206. and you just started a fresh new round!

[el_bryanto]

218. Thank goodness this post came along to put a stop to all that gender war stuff

Clearly it has had the desired effect.

Bryant

[gulliver]

220. Ellen Jamesians, Guy Fawkesians, Marxists...

Anti-vaxxers, FTPers...are probably in a not-so-great phase of their lives. They are addicted to a destructive form of validation, and their best bet to get off that train is to meditate and care about others on purpose.

[NCTraveler]

221. You don't have to see any of it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8491212

[WorseBeforeBetter]

256. Heh, GBCDU!

From skimming the thread, there appears to be a history of it. Such drama.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

239. this is very akin to straight people on du declaring that gays are asking for ponies

or whites belittling the effects of race on african americans etc.

basically when it doesn't matter to your life, you see a problem as insignificant, whereas when it matters to the lives of the oppressed, it is not so insignificant

[bettyellen]

261. and, we have seen all that before. some from the same people.

[libodem]

244. .

[img][/img]

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

257. God forbid that political issues should be discussed on a political forum!

[LittleBlue]

280. The nudity/objectification war was fought and lost long ago

before I was born in the 80s. The death knell for the conflict happened with the internet, when the mainstream media could no longer be shamed into restraint by factions like the religious right and radical feminists. The struggle lost its vigor after people realized anyone could set up a website and post photos that make those swimsuit models look like Catholic nuns.

Watching this fight about the SI swimsuit issue is like watching the last few Dodos struggle hopelessly against their environment. If I hadn't been on DU, I wouldn't even know that objectification in SI was controversial. Fighting against the SI swimsuit issue is amusingly quixotic.

[R B Garr]

287. Then go to those websites that post the photos you describe. It's that simple.

Your post is really good in the broader sense of discussing "radical" opinions about nudity, but it kind of misses the mark as it relates to specific issues and especially specific websites. I would say I'm correct in saying that people don't come to this website to find material to masturbate to. They come here for different reasons. If you want to look at pictures of naked of half naked women, then go do it. But if you come to a website that has Terms of Service such as this one, then respect those terms and don't be a flaming asshole to others who don't appreciate your prurient tastes. It's really that simple.

[LittleBlue]

290. The swimsuit issue fits fine in GD

as it is an annual iconic issue of significant importance. Sort of like People's 50 Most Beautiful People issue, the Forbes Rich List, or the "best places to live".

The swimsuit issue thread is allowed for this reason. If you don't like it, click the little box next to the thread and you don't have to see it again.

[R B Garr]

299. Your first post started out talking about the war on nudity being "lost"

because of the internet, and that people figured out they could post all kinds of nasty internet photos. If you want to see those nasty photos, then go to those websites.

If you want to antagonize certain posters on a website that don't like the objectification of women under the guise of an "annual iconic issue of significant importance", then don't complain when people call you on it.

Those were two different points that were combined in your first post about generic "nudity".

[LittleBlue]

300. Those are not contradictory points

Your post makes no sense. I hold two congruent opinions at once: that objection to sexuality is going extinct, and that you can avoid the thread by trashing it. These aren't contradictory, and I'm pretty sure DU rules allows me to make two points in the same thread.

I needn't go to those websites because discussion of the SI swimsuit issue is allowed in GD, else the hosts would have locked it.

[R B Garr]

303. lol, your first post basically says if you don't want to see nasty internet photos

you are a "radical" because of religious reasons or a radical feminist. I offered this DU website as just one example as to how and why people don't need to associate the internet with naked women. The SI issue doesn't contain naked women, so you comparing it to radical feminists or religious "shaming" about nudity isn't really what's being discussed here.

[LittleBlue]

304. That isn't true

your first post basically says if you don't want to see nasty internet photos you are a "radical" because of religious reasons or a radical feminist.

You can't infer that at all from what I wrote. 99% of people who don't like the SI Swimsuit Issue just don't look at it. They don't buy it, they don't look for it online, and when they see the thread, they don't click on it. It's the 1% causing an issue, who actually try to pressure SI to stop publishing it, to morality police those who want to see it, and (rather than trash thread or ignore) want it scrubbed from GD.

Those two groups are worlds apart.

[R B Garr]

310. You keep hiding behind the SI swimsuit as if that's really the issue

I've seen the SI swimsuit issue in my doctor's office for cripes sake, so it's obvious that it's readily available. But that's not really the point. The SI issue in this situation wasn't about "morality police" or any of the other dismissive terms you've used (1% causing an issue, morality police and radical feminists).

[Harmony Blue]

286. I did a google search for mgtow

and its popularity has sky rocketed the last six months. I suspect that our society is undergoing some massive changes and conflicts as a result.

[madrchsod]

288. i gave up for now....

i`vie contributed since 2002 and i`m seriously thinking of not spending a dime here anymore. i can go on face-book or go back to kos and have better discussions about the issues of the day and the future of our country. i`m sick of these flame wars that result in absolutely nothing but page space.

[morningfog]

292. Yay! Flame bait for a flame war! When's your next vacay?

[LanternWaste]

293. What other civil rights and social issues do you suggest we refrain from discussing?

What other civil rights and social issues do you suggest we refrain from discussing?

(Insert distinction without a difference here)

[Purveyor]

311. Locking. Even you knew this was 'meta' by your comments in the OP.