Confronting The VP May Be Impolite. Is It A Crime?

[malaise]

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/21/148606249/confronting-the-vp-may-be-impolite-is-it-a-crime?sc=fb&cc=fp
<snip>
The U.S. Supreme Court hears arguments Wednesday in a case involving the arrest of a Colorado man who was thrown in jail after telling Vice President Cheney in 2006 that the Bush Administration's policies in Iraq were "disgusting."

Environmental consultant Steven Howards is suing the Secret Service agents who arrested him, contending that the arrest violated his First Amendment rights because it was nothing more than retaliation for the views he expressed to the vice president. The case pits the need for protecting public officials against the rights of citizens to express their views to the people elected to represent them.

Nationwide, the courts are divided on whether law enforcement officers can be sued for retaliatory arrest if there arguably were grounds for the arrest in the first place, the grounds here being that Howards said initially said he didn't touch the vice president, when in fact, the agents agreed he did touch him.

Howards counters that the essence of American democracy is the ability of its citizens to express their opinions to elected officials, and that if police officers cannot be held accountable for retaliatory arrests, the rights of citizens will be greatly inhibited.

[Autumn]

1. No it's not a crime. It's a fucking right

we put the SOBs in office, we can damn well voice our displeasure at them.

[The Wielding Truth]

2. Absolutely correct. The true freedom of speech.

[tk2kewl]

4. a resposibility even

[Proud Liberal Dem]

3. The weird part of the story for me

Last edited Wed Mar 21, 2012, 05:02 PM - Edit history (1)

(based on what I heard on NPR this morning) is that he wasn't arrested at the time he actually made the comments to Cheney but later- after he had left to drop his child off somewhere and then returned to the scene. Also of great concern is that one of the agents reportedly sought to get the other agents to change their stories about what the man did after the fact as well.


I agree with the premise that secret service agents have to make snap decisions to protect government officials/candidates and that it would be insane to allow them to be hauled in front of the courts to justify every decision but it seems to me that if this guy made these comments to Cheney but the agents didn't do anything to him then, nothing should have happened to him after he had left and returned to the scene IMHO. Am I missing something here?

[malaise]

17. Absolutely correct

[Proud Liberal Dem]

19. .........

[randome]

5. The only justification for the Secret Service stepping in...

...would be if he gave any indication of being threatening.

And even then, putting him in jail is an over-reach since he was simply expressing his opinion.

[JDPriestly]

9. Yes, if people were not arrested for making positive comments,

or otherwise reacting positively, then he should not have been arrested merely for a remark --- unless he threatened the VP some other way.

[barbtries]

6. i heard a blurb about this on the way home yesterday

and really wanted to hear it. thanks for sharing, i'll find a podcast hopefully.

[lacrew]

7. I don't like how the secret service operates

...Essentially, you have very few civil rights, if somebody with SS protection stumbles into your neighborhood. There have been stories of people not being allowed to leave their house, because they were on a planned travel route, until the politician's motorcade went by. I think it stinks.

Having said that, this guy may have sealed his own fate:

and told Reichle that if he didn't want people accosting Cheney, he should "keep Cheney out of public places."

That's just asking for it. May not be right, but that statement will definitely get a reaction...and that's what got him the cuffs.

[Bandit]

8. The word accost means approaching someone to speak to

There is no way such a statement could be incriminating in any manner.. There is simply no threat of any sort in that statement and I agree with it 100%.. If a politician does not want to be accosted by a constituent then they should not go into public.....

[lacrew]

11. I think you are looking at this from a legalistic point of view

...Which does not seem to apply, as far as the Secret Service is concerned.

I'm not saying I agree with it...but this man had to know a comment like that would get him the cuffs.

I'm glad this case is moving forward. Maybe we'll settle, once and for all, what the SS is permitted to do.

I was just saying thay 'keep _____ out of public places' sounds alot like 'please cuff me'.

[JDPriestly]

10. But Reichle is right. As long as the speech is in a public place that is suitable for speech

then the speech cannot be discriminated against based on content. If Cheney was speaking, and the public was invited, for sure the Secret Service probably has a big problem. Can't discriminate based on the content of the speech.

[lacrew]

13. Not all speech is free

The phrase 'keep Cheney out of public places' could be interpreted as a threat. I don't necessarily agree with that; but, how do you think the SS will call it?

Its a good case...and he may win.

I was just pointing out that his phrase was practically an invitation to get the handcuffs.

Think about it.

Man walks up to Cheney, and makes an anti-Cheney remark

Man leaves the area

Man comes back, and according to the article, looked anxious

SS talk to man, and he says 'keep Cheney out of public places'.

Its going to get their Spidey Senses going.

[11 Bravo]

16. 1. If he put his hands on Cheney, he fucked up big-time.

2. But I hope he was given time to wash up afterward prior to his (appropriate) detention.

Seriously, I don't care what you think of the President or V-P, you keep your fucking hands off of them!

[Luminous Animal]

20. Yes. We do not touch our betters. I remember the brouhaha when Michelle Obama touched the queen...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888962,00.html

I, for one was horrified that she would fuck up big-time.

[11 Bravo]

21. Wow! And I thought that false equivalencies were the exclusive domain of Repukes! My bad.

Either that, or I must have completely forgotten the fact that as the First Lady approached the Queen she was verbally berating poor old Liz.
I guess the British security folks are just much more civilized than we damned touchy Yanks.

[Luminous Animal]

22. So, what did he do wrong? Was it the touching (as you stated above) or was it

the "berating".

[11 Bravo]

24. I asked first. You show me yours, and I'll show you mine.

(And, be honest, do you really not understand?)

[riderinthestorm]

25. We really don't know what "touching" means in this case. VPs and citizens touch each all the time

handshakes, hugs, grasp on the shoulder, holding forearms, first bumps....

The President, First Lady and just about every other politician certainly do touch us, and we touch them.

I'm curious what kind of "touching' this was... was it innocuous (but framed by the SS in such a way as to create a reason to arrest this guy because of his negative comment?) Or threatening? (which seems unlikely since they didn't arrest him on the spot but only later).

[Zalatix]

12. He touched the Vice President, that's a no-no

That includes laying eyes on the Veep in a malicious manner, citizens! </satire>

[Luminous Animal]

18. Eyes down, deep bow, nape of the neck, and a kiss on the ring.

[cojoel]

14. it would be OK in Florida

you can stand your ground there, and even pursue.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. The Divine Rights of politicians must not be challenged.

[malaise]

23. I can't wait for the decision on this one n/t

[Nye Bevan]

26. I bet if he'd said "keep up the great work in Iraq"

he would have been fine.

A very clear violation of the First Amendment.

[alp227]

27. Back then, the Dark Side Forum wanted to throw the book on Howards

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1718189/posts

On a smarter side, NPR had a good discussion of the case on today's "Morning Edition": http://www.npr.org/2012/03/21/148606249/confronting-the-vp-may-be-impolite-is-it-a-crime

It revealed how the secret service struggled to put together a coherent story about what Howards did: "Indeed, in depositions taken in 2007, the Secret Service agents directly contradicted each other. Reichle, the agent who made the arrest, did not himself witness Howards' encounter with Vice President Cheney. He testified that agents assigned to the vice president had told him that Howards made "unsolicited physical contact that was perceived in an aggressive and threatening nature.""

Oh yeah, remember when VP Biden was accosted by this conservative magazine editor, Jason Mattera (of Human Events and author of Obama Zombies?)

Biden's office merely filed a complaint, but Mattera hasn't even been questioned for all I know.

[AtomicKitten]

28. Remember this guy who got roughed up by Cheney's goons?

"Go fuck yourself, Mr. Cheney."

link to story: http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_jackson__050909_physician_who_told_o.htm